What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

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ElBarto
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by ElBarto »

investingdad wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:32 pm OP,

I'm not trying to be belligerent and I apologize if I came off that way. I think I'm just having a hard time rationalizing that kind of purchase given our similar situations.
It's cool.
No hard feelings.
Ever.

I guess put yourself in whatever position it is that you feel financially independent and you realize that from this point forward, any additional dollar you earn is extra. Whatever that may mean to you. Maybe it means feeling safer in your investments. Maybe it means you can donate a bit more. Maybe it means you can give more to your kids/grandkids. Or maybe it means you want to splurge a little on yourself.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

ElBarto wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:43 pm Anyways. I consider ourselves financially independent. Any new money that comes is is just gravy on top at this point. I guess I am less conservative than you are. Which is fine....personal finance is personal.
I think I saw somewhere you expecting an 8% return on your portfolio. From your lips to God’s ears 😉

You mention the 4% “rule.” Well, it’s not a rule, and whatever it is, it was intended for a normal retirement duration of, say, 30 years. You’re more likely to live 50 years.

I’m not here to begrudge you your choice of car. I just hope you’re not guzzling the FI Kool-Aid.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.
DownToThis
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by DownToThis »

caffeperfavore wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:54 pm The Audi RS6 Avant is finally coming to the US. Run with the supercars on your way to get bagels, have space to bring more bagels home.

Image

This is what I would get, but I'm weird.
This is my dream car as well. Although OP already seems to have an s4. But still this is a beauty!
stoptothink
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by stoptothink »

investingdad wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:32 pm OP,

I'm not trying to be belligerent and I apologize if I came off that way. I think I'm just having a hard time rationalizing that kind of purchase given our similar situations.
I know countless individuals who have almost zero net worth (including my brother) driving around cars in this price range. I personally am with you in that I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it, but what's the point in continuing to tell the OP that you think it is financially irresponsible?
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ElBarto
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by ElBarto »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:00 pm
ElBarto wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:43 pm Anyways. I consider ourselves financially independent. Any new money that comes is is just gravy on top at this point. I guess I am less conservative than you are. Which is fine....personal finance is personal.
I think I saw somewhere you expecting an 8% return on your portfolio. From your lips to God’s ears 😉

You mention the 4% “rule.” Well, it’s not a rule, and whatever it is, it was intended for a normal retirement duration of, say, 30 years. You’re more likely to live 50 years.

I’m not here to begrudge you your choice of car. I just hope you’re not guzzling the FI Kool-Aid.
I think 8% nominal or 5% real is a decent estimate wouldn't you say? I believe it is less than what we have seen on average in the past. Plus who said I'm retiring? Just saying I am financially independent. Not that I am counting on it. I will be getting some sort of SS whatever it may look like 26 years from now. Either way even a 1% return is extra money, plus I am still working and adding to the 401k, HSA, Roth.

I am totally guzzling the FI Kool-Aid without going RE. Serious questions here. How much more money do I need? What else should I do with it other than donate it?

I realize it is not a rule, but as a guideline, I think I'm in pretty good shape here.
stoptothink wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:36 pm
investingdad wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:32 pm OP,

I'm not trying to be belligerent and I apologize if I came off that way. I think I'm just having a hard time rationalizing that kind of purchase given our similar situations.
I know countless individuals who have almost zero net worth (including my brother) driving around cars in this price range. I personally am with you in that I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it, but what's the point in continuing to tell the OP that you think it is financially irresponsible?
Stop to think, I ask you the same question I asked our friendly TomatoTomahato above?
I am for all intent and purposes financially independent, making very good money with no good reason to retire early. My portfolio is invested in index funds. If I keep saving I will have have more money than I need. Why not spend it on something I will enjoy. And, if I don't enjoy it and find it is more trouble than it is worth, what is the worst that will happen? I am down $50k-$100k? That is about 1.6-3.2% of my portfolio. Think of where you are today and think about throwing 3% of your portfolio on a hobby you thought you will love. Does it still seem like a waste to you?

What if instead of a car I bought a condo near the slopes? Is that okay?
What If I spent 3% of my net worth on a 6 month vacation through Europe? Is that okay?
Why is it that just because you don't enjoy driving cars, you can't empathize with someone who does?
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by stoptothink »

ElBarto wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:57 pm
stoptothink wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:36 pm
investingdad wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:32 pm OP,

I'm not trying to be belligerent and I apologize if I came off that way. I think I'm just having a hard time rationalizing that kind of purchase given our similar situations.
I know countless individuals who have almost zero net worth (including my brother) driving around cars in this price range. I personally am with you in that I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it, but what's the point in continuing to tell the OP that you think it is financially irresponsible?
Stop to think, I ask you the same question I asked our friendly TomatoTomahato above?
I am for all intent and purposes financially independent, making very good money with no good reason to retire early. My portfolio is invested in index funds. If I keep saving I will have have more money than I need. Why not spend it on something I will enjoy. And, if I don't enjoy it and find it is more trouble than it is worth, what is the worst that will happen? I am down $50k-$100k? That is about 1.6-3.2% of my portfolio. Think of where you are today and think about throwing 3% of your portfolio on a hobby you thought you will love. Does it still seem like a waste to you?

What if instead of a car I bought a condo near the slopes? Is that okay?
What If I spent 3% of my net worth on a 6 month vacation through Europe? Is that okay?
Why is it that just because you don't enjoy driving cars, you can't empathize with someone who does?
Huh? I wouldn't personally do it because I've driven several cars in this price range/category (on the street) and I (despite being a major car guy) just don't see the appeal. I'd get a track-only car and have at it. I'm not in any way judging you, you can blow $200k, but I have no interest in doing the same thing.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

OP, I’m just more conservative than you are. That’s okay, it’s what makes horse races.

I’m okay with my Tesla Model X and the expense of my wife’s Porsche Turbo Cayenne (which, when well optioned, costs an eye watering amount). At your age and financial situation, I would not be spending $150-$200k. That doesn’t make me right, it just means that I’m a belt and suspenders guy.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.
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steve50
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by steve50 »

I am just here for the financial aspect of all this (not the car) and curious as to what liquid assets would be needed to justify the car at this level.  The $3M is definitely too low and I am thinking at least $15M+. 
BruDude
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by BruDude »

steve50 wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:15 pm I am just here for the financial aspect of all this (not the car) and curious as to what liquid assets would be needed to justify the car at this level.  The $3M is definitely too low and I am thinking at least $15M+. 
I don’t have a NW anywhere near OP’s and I have a 911 GT3. Worth every penny. $15m to buy a $200k car is nuts. The car doesn’t magically become worth $0 as soon as you buy it. Mine is still worth nearly what I paid for it over a year ago.
bogledogle
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by bogledogle »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:45 am
bogledogle wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:58 pm
Finally my recommendations:

Alpha Romeo 4C
Lotus Evora
Porsche Cayman GTS
Porsche Cayman GT4
Porsche GT3
Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili......not the Greek letter. It's an acronym. Sorry.....having owned 3 Alfas, it always feels like nails on the blackboard when people use the Greek letter.

(pre-empting alfaspider coming in to say this)_
Ha ha ... that's my bad.. I have been corrected on that before :D
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by bogledogle »

a_movable_life wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:13 am
I came here to say this. I watch a youtube channel superspeederrob where the owner of the rental agency talks about his business. He also does exotic car trips where he takes the stable out somewhere and then a bunch of guys and him go out and play. He mentioned that during Coronatimes his rentals were way down because most people rent the cars to be seen at proms and big date nights and not to actually drive them as designed.

Other people have mentioned the maintenance issues with a car designed for performance first and repairs and upkeep second. I think the Bugatti V16 has 16 or 18 drain points and you have to take the rearend of the car off. Many of these cars have dry sump lubrication to get the engine lower in the frame. Same guy above mentions how astronomically expensive the parts are.

Especially since it sounds like you are not a "Specific" car guy, with that car you always wanted. This would give you stable to choose from. It's also a stable that is constantly updated.
A fellow Rob Spagetti watcher! I have been watching his superspeeders stuff from way back in the day. There are others from youtube who do this... "Everyday driver" guys, I think Matt Farah did some of these too. Sounds like fun ... I need to go on one of these.
Dave55
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by Dave55 »

bob60014 wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:57 pm 69 Dodge Charger R/T!
Hemi or 440 6 pack?

Dave
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by bogledogle »

ElBarto wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:17 pm
bogledogle wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:58 pm
Finally my recommendations:

Alfa Romeo 4C - fixed spelling :)
Lotus Evora
Porsche Cayman GTS
Porsche Cayman GT4
Porsche GT3
The game plan is to learn...play...learn...play and then buy. I agree the process is part of the fun. I am enjoying just reading and learning about the cars. I am hoping in the next week or two to head out and rent something. I have a few options available to get started on the process in my neighborhood. The key is finding a solid day off to just go cruising and not waste the rental sitting in my driveway.

thanks for your suggestions.
Yeah, car shopping is fun if you love cars. You should also try to get test drives from dealerships as much as possible. I shopped this exact list and bought a Cayman GTS. IMO, it was the most practical car for me out of the list. GT3s were too expensive and I wanted a mid-engine car. GT4 is manual only and not comfy enough for longer drives. The Alfa and Lotus are purely weekend/track cars and were impractical for me.

Here's my case for the Cayman:

Cayman GTS has all the creature comforts, it's very reliable and easy to find an independent mechanic. Driving experience is sublime - fairly daily drivable and can be an all-in-one touring/track/autocross - I did all of them and it's a hoot! It has the right amount of power for you to wring it out on public roads and not get yourself into trouble (well, mostly anyway). Finally, but most importantly for me, it was not too expensive for me to worry about depreciation, maintenance or mileage and enjoy driving the hell out of it.
WildBill
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by WildBill »

Howdy

Spending that kind of money in your situation is not something I would do, and I still think the Tesla pickup is way cooler than anything else anyone has brought up, along with also being practical as well as running like a scalded cat, but buy whatever you like and have fun :P

I think if you get one of the high maintenance hanger queens it will get old fast.

Keep it between the ditches

W B
"Through chances various, through all vicissitudes, we make our way." Virgil, The Aeneid
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by bogledogle »

BruDude wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:22 pm
steve50 wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:15 pm I am just here for the financial aspect of all this (not the car) and curious as to what liquid assets would be needed to justify the car at this level.  The $3M is definitely too low and I am thinking at least $15M+. 
I don’t have a NW anywhere near OP’s and I have a 911 GT3. Worth every penny. $15m to buy a $200k car is nuts. The car doesn’t magically become worth $0 as soon as you buy it. Mine is still worth nearly what I paid for it over a year ago.
Yup. I don't know how you justify putting a price on Joy, but if I had 15M, I'd probably have 1M in cars :)
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

a_movable_life wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:13 am

I came here to say this. I watch a youtube channel superspeederrob where the owner of the rental agency talks about his business. He also does exotic car trips where he takes the stable out somewhere and then a bunch of guys and him go out and play. He mentioned that during Coronatimes his rentals were way down because most people rent the cars to be seen at proms and big date nights and not to actually drive them as designed.

Other people have mentioned the maintenance issues with a car designed for performance first and repairs and upkeep second. I think the Bugatti V16 has 16 or 18 drain points and you have to take the rearend of the car off. Many of these cars have dry sump lubrication to get the engine lower in the frame. Same guy above mentions how astronomically expensive the parts are.

Especially since it sounds like you are not a "Specific" car guy, with that car you always wanted. This would give you stable to choose from. It's also a stable that is constantly updated.
I've followed Rob since he was filming cars racing at night just to make a youtube video. Yah, the dream cruise is a good way to get a drive in a limited number of exotics. Gotta say.....Rob Spaghetti is a clown. 8-)

Of course, watch all the VinWiki videos. Tavarish is good to see what goes wrong with these cars. And he wrenches everyday, so has a diy approach to lots of stuff. Neither Hoovie or Ed Bolian do.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
bubbadog
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by bubbadog »

OP,

If you are considering a new NSX, I would recommend you consider a barely used one.

The 2017s (first year of the new design) will be coming off lease this fall.

Right now, garage queen examples with low mileage are selling in the 110-125k range. These cars had MSRPs of 156k-206k when new.

A lot of NSX enthusiasts expect private party prices to drop below 100K soon. You could avoid a lot of depreciation this way and have the same vehicle.

Best of luck with your decision.
randomguy
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by randomguy »

BruDude wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:33 pm All roads lead back to the 911. One drive in a GT3/RS and you will be sold. There’s really nothing else like it.

The 981 Boxster/Cayman GTS is also an amazing fun to drive car that sounds great, looks great, and is easy to drive. $55-75k range, whole lot of money left over.

All of the above have great resale. A manual 991.2 GT3 is right in your target range or slightly under too.
OP said they want car that is rare. That is pretty much zero Porsches. Even the ones that are rare tend to look just like the base models to nonEnthusists. Nobody is going to be impressed when you pull up to the stop light. Course that requirement seems to be disappearing.

And while I definitely respect the RS6, the best sleeper is a
Image
Nothing like a 500hp minivan:) Wonder if Jaguar makes a souped up version of the XF wagon. I have seen one of them in my life on the road. Makes Lambos look common:)
JuniorBH
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by JuniorBH »

ElBarto wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:57 pm Stop to think, I ask you the same question I asked our friendly TomatoTomahato above?
I am for all intent and purposes financially independent, making very good money with no good reason to retire early. My portfolio is invested in index funds. If I keep saving I will have have more money than I need. Why not spend it on something I will enjoy. And, if I don't enjoy it and find it is more trouble than it is worth, what is the worst that will happen? I am down $50k-$100k? That is about 1.6-3.2% of my portfolio. Think of where you are today and think about throwing 3% of your portfolio on a hobby you thought you will love. Does it still seem like a waste to you?

What if instead of a car I bought a condo near the slopes? Is that okay?
What If I spent 3% of my net worth on a 6 month vacation through Europe? Is that okay?
Why is it that just because you don't enjoy driving cars, you can't empathize with someone who does?
Skimmed the whole thread, but this hits the nail on the head. I will (fingers crossed) be in a similar position later in life and fully intend to spend the money on a car as a hobby (probably not a super car as I'd rather something i can turn wrenches on, but that's besides the point).

You're not going to take a huge financial beating on a car, relative to your net worth, and why save all this money just to let it sit in the bank.

As it relates to the car specifically, I would lean toward a Porsche; easier to maintain, more readily available dealerships and easier to drive around town. Also more options; GT3, GT4, 911 Turbo, etc. And they will all probably hold their value better, but as I stated above, I wouldn't view this as an investment anyway.

Good luck!
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ElBarto
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by ElBarto »

JuniorBH wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:16 pm
ElBarto wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:57 pm Stop to think, I ask you the same question I asked our friendly TomatoTomahato above?
I am for all intent and purposes financially independent, making very good money with no good reason to retire early. My portfolio is invested in index funds. If I keep saving I will have have more money than I need. Why not spend it on something I will enjoy. And, if I don't enjoy it and find it is more trouble than it is worth, what is the worst that will happen? I am down $50k-$100k? That is about 1.6-3.2% of my portfolio. Think of where you are today and think about throwing 3% of your portfolio on a hobby you thought you will love. Does it still seem like a waste to you?

What if instead of a car I bought a condo near the slopes? Is that okay?
What If I spent 3% of my net worth on a 6 month vacation through Europe? Is that okay?
Why is it that just because you don't enjoy driving cars, you can't empathize with someone who does?
Skimmed the whole thread, but this hits the nail on the head. I will (fingers crossed) be in a similar position later in life and fully intend to spend the money on a car as a hobby (probably not a super car as I'd rather something i can turn wrenches on, but that's besides the point).

You're not going to take a huge financial beating on a car, relative to your net worth, and why save all this money just to let it sit in the bank.

As it relates to the car specifically, I would lean toward a Porsche; easier to maintain, more readily available dealerships and easier to drive around town. Also more options; GT3, GT4, 911 Turbo, etc. And they will all probably hold their value better, but as I stated above, I wouldn't view this as an investment anyway.

Good luck!
Thanks,
I have a love hate relationship with wrenching. I enjoy it, but curse through the process especially if I am missing a particular tool which is something I find very common with german cars. And, let me tell you, I almost always curse. Never out loud, the cursing is all internal. Then, when I am done, I grab a beer feeling very satisfied with the work accomplished. I remember the first time I did something as simple as a set of brakes. I stripped the rotor screw requiring me to go and get a tool to drill it out, plus I leaked brake fluid everywhere. Once done, I got into the car and drove it around town and then to the highway to bed them properly. That first stop was scary as heck. Then the deceleration during bedding going from 80-50 was nerve racking. The next day I was on the race track with the car going from 100+ to 30 mph and the car held up. Now that felt good.
surfinagin
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by surfinagin »

270 posts on Bogleheads discussing a $150-200K fun car purchase! :shock:

Didn't realize there was so much diversity on this forum.
Corollas, Subarus, EV's, buy used, use public transportation, ride a bike, be frugal, etc was what I considered the typical auto-related thread. :D
If shopping exoticars, I'd have posted on forums dedicated to that, or general car enthusiast forums.

Just goes to show the vast areas of knowledge available here! 8-)

With 270 posts, don't know what to add except that I love reviewing the beautiful cars up for auction in my daily BringATrailer email, and that you may find good ideas/info or even something to bid there.

Have Fun ElBarto!
ChiLawyer
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by ChiLawyer »

I don't begrudge you the success or the purchase, but, given the times we live in, have you considered doing some good with that $200K? At that level, you could endow multiple scholarships at your university of choice, allowing future generations to achieve the well-earned success you have.
Laker1
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by Laker1 »

Shelby GT500 with a Super Snake add on at the factory in Vegas,,,,drive it 700-1000 miles then let me tune it for you...NOTHING that is US legal with give you an issue...Make sure your life insurance is up to date btw.
smalliebigs
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by smalliebigs »

Skipping 6 pages here. Have you thought of allocating that amount of $ to lease the sports car? It would save you a lot of repair/warranty hassle, and then you could try out many vehicles.
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corn18
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by corn18 »

My best friend makes $3M a year and got the performance itch. Went something like this:

MB AMG 63 sedan
Porsche 911 4S
Porsche 911 Turbo S (tuned)
Mclaren MP4-12C
Lambo of some sort
Mclaren 650
Ferrari 488 GTB

He scratched his itch and figured out he didn't like driving a car only to get coffee on Saturday morning for his wife. SO he is off that kick and drives a lowly Porsche Panamera S (not even a turbo!).

But his friend had the right idea, I think. He had a Ferrari 488 for his exotic car. He wanted to track it, but like most people, did not enjoy it. So he bought an affordable C-7 Corvette Grand Sport coupe for track days. That way he could beat up the cheap car. Of course, these are the same two guys that were talking about how much they needed in retirement and both agreed that $600k / year was about where they could be happy. Any less than that and they would have to budget.

So, to answer your question: I would get an Audi R8 V10 Spyder. My dream car.
Don't do something, just stand there!
JackoC
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by JackoC »

apex84 wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:00 pm Agree with alfaspider on the GT4 if you're serious about the track. If I had the time and interest, I would just get a track Miata to start. I started out with an Audi with < 200 HP and it was plenty to learn. If you're considering the track with any of these, be sure to learn about steel vs ceramic brakes in terms of track wear and running costs.

I'm not a Porsche diehard, but the mid-engine layout of the Cayman appeals to me more than the 911. Having said that, the 911 has evolved into an easy to drive car and has every possible variant to get the car you want (at a price). The 911 has an amazing heritage and racing history. When I was younger, my dream car was the 959, not the flashier Ferraris and Lamborghinis.
Love these threads both for the discussion itself and how the idea of spending that much on a car makes some people so annoyed. :happy

I've yet to have a Porsche, but from my research if somebody told me to go out and buy a $150-200k car today I'd get a 911 4S nicely equipped, toward the lower end of that range. The further upper end 911's are loud as cruisers, from what I've heard. A Cayman has no back seat. I wouldn't be mainly tracking but going on looong road trips like we do in my BMW M2 now. Absolute middle of nowhere, with the mechanical reliability reputation of an Italian or British exotic...I don't think so. I trust the BMW enough, as I would the Porsche, and while we saw zero other M2's on our last (~5000 mile) road trip you don't stick out like *that* much of a sore thumb. Also that car can generate enormous amounts of fun on winding roads without being very illegal about it, so I guess I'm saying I might never spend $150k (the M2 was around $60k). But we need that back seat plus trunk for two person two-three week cruising, and a car that's fairly refined in terms of ride and noise for 8-10 hour drives (the M2 is far from a Lexus on pillowy ride and whisper quiet, but it's fairly comfortable on long non-fun road stretches, I gather the 911 would also be).

Also I don't like depreciation, who does, but don't like the idea of paying a lot for a used car either. Which is another reason I might never graduate from mid-high five figure new cars. I know if next time I consider a new generation M3 (assuming it's cool, and once it's debugged) I will be able to get a used 911 for the same $'s and have slower depreciation. That idea just doesn't excite me much.
InvestInLife
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by InvestInLife »

I'm in the group that may never understand why anyone would spend that much on a car, and assume you just want to spend money. Are any cars in that price range an investment? Well It is a bogleheads group after all. My vintage Fiat Spider 2000 is one of the classier sports car on the road, very fun to drive, I'd choose it over a $200k Ferrari 308 any day, and it cost me 5k.
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by FireSekr »

InvestInLife wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:47 pm I'm in the group that may never understand why anyone would spend that much on a car, and assume you just want to spend money. Are any cars in that price range an investment? Well It is a bogleheads group after all. My vintage Fiat Spider 2000 is one of the classier sports car on the road, very fun to drive, I'd choose it over a $200k Ferrari 308 any day, and it cost me 5k.
A nice 308 can be had in the $50-60k range. 6 or 7 years ago you could have gotten one for about $30k
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by BruDude »

JackoC wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:22 pm Love these threads both for the discussion itself and how the idea of spending that much on a car makes some people so annoyed. :happy

I've yet to have a Porsche, but from my research if somebody told me to go out and buy a $150-200k car today I'd get a 911 4S nicely equipped, toward the lower end of that range. The further upper end 911's are loud as cruisers, from what I've heard. A Cayman has no back seat. I wouldn't be mainly tracking but going on looong road trips like we do in my BMW M2 now. Absolute middle of nowhere, with the mechanical reliability reputation of an Italian or British exotic...I don't think so. I trust the BMW enough, as I would the Porsche, and while we saw zero other M2's on our last (~5000 mile) road trip you don't stick out like *that* much of a sore thumb. Also that car can generate enormous amounts of fun on winding roads without being very illegal about it, so I guess I'm saying I might never spend $150k (the M2 was around $60k). But we need that back seat plus trunk for two person two-three week cruising, and a car that's fairly refined in terms of ride and noise for 8-10 hour drives (the M2 is far from a Lexus on pillowy ride and whisper quiet, but it's fairly comfortable on long non-fun road stretches, I gather the 911 would also be).

Also I don't like depreciation, who does, but don't like the idea of paying a lot for a used car either. Which is another reason I might never graduate from mid-high five figure new cars. I know if next time I consider a new generation M3 (assuming it's cool, and once it's debugged) I will be able to get a used 911 for the same $'s and have slower depreciation. That idea just doesn't excite me much.
Once you go P-car you can't go back, so tread carefully!
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by er999 »

[/quote]

Thanks for your post. I honestly don't want or care for a back seat. One of the things that I like about Lotus is that is is more rare on the streets and has that exotic look. Plus I am a big fan of the Elise/Exige platform. How was your customer service thus far? Any issues with reliability in those last 6 months?
[/quote]

The Evora I bought was used and out of warranty. I took it to an independent shop for service except for one issue. It had a known problem when I bought it where the traction control would intermittently come off. The prior owner wasn't able to fix it himself and wasn't close to a Lotus dealer. My local dealer was able to fix it for relatively little ($300). It turned out to be due to a miscalibrated steering wheel sensor. Lotus doesn't sell their scan tool to independent shops so for some specialized issues you need to go to a dealer. If you don't have a local dealer I would be cautious about buying.
MMiroir
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by MMiroir »

alfaspider wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:09 am
apex84 wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:57 am

If driving experience is your priority and you might consider track time, then get a Porsche. My pick would be a Cayman GT4 for a mid-engine layout and outstanding chassis. In reality, I would pick a 911 for the AWD system.
I wouldn't get a Cayman GT4 or 911 for a track car unless you already have a lot of track time under your belt. They are excellent track cars, but they are way too quick for a beginner. It's a bit like buying a Hayabusa for your first motorcycle. Far better to start with something like a Miata, Toyota 86, or even a first gen base Cayman and work your way up on the power scale.
I used to be a member of a "country club" racetrack, and new members would show up in their new Corvettes, 911's and Ferrari's, and would be quickly embarrassed by older members passing them in spec Miatas during open track days. Within a few months, most new members ended up getting a spec Miata as they were fun, cheap and disposable if you got into a wreck.

I have not read the full thread, but the OP should probably watch this episode of Harry's Garage to get his take on "What to Buy".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4epQvqkmvBk
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by stoptothink »

JuniorBH wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:16 pm
ElBarto wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:57 pm Stop to think, I ask you the same question I asked our friendly TomatoTomahato above?
I am for all intent and purposes financially independent, making very good money with no good reason to retire early. My portfolio is invested in index funds. If I keep saving I will have have more money than I need. Why not spend it on something I will enjoy. And, if I don't enjoy it and find it is more trouble than it is worth, what is the worst that will happen? I am down $50k-$100k? That is about 1.6-3.2% of my portfolio. Think of where you are today and think about throwing 3% of your portfolio on a hobby you thought you will love. Does it still seem like a waste to you?

What if instead of a car I bought a condo near the slopes? Is that okay?
What If I spent 3% of my net worth on a 6 month vacation through Europe? Is that okay?
Why is it that just because you don't enjoy driving cars, you can't empathize with someone who does?
Skimmed the whole thread, but this hits the nail on the head. I will (fingers crossed) be in a similar position later in life and fully intend to spend the money on a car as a hobby (probably not a super car as I'd rather something i can turn wrenches on, but that's besides the point).

You're not going to take a huge financial beating on a car, relative to your net worth, and why save all this money just to let it sit in the bank.

As it relates to the car specifically, I would lean toward a Porsche; easier to maintain, more readily available dealerships and easier to drive around town. Also more options; GT3, GT4, 911 Turbo, etc. And they will all probably hold their value better, but as I stated above, I wouldn't view this as an investment anyway.

Good luck!
Only problem is, he was responding to a post where I was supporting him; asking another poster what the point was of continuously telling ElBarto that this was financially irresponsible. Just because you personally wouldn't make the decision (I am in that camp, because I have found driving an exotic on public streets does little for me) doesn't mean OP can't afford to blow $200k on whatever he wants.
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by alfaspider »

InvestInLife wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:47 pm I'm in the group that may never understand why anyone would spend that much on a car, and assume you just want to spend money. Are any cars in that price range an investment? Well It is a bogleheads group after all. My vintage Fiat Spider 2000 is one of the classier sports car on the road, very fun to drive, I'd choose it over a $200k Ferrari 308 any day, and it cost me 5k.
Cars in any price range can be an investment, although very rarely if they are remotely new (some recent Porsche GT cars have held value or appreciated from new, but that trend seems to be waning as production numbers for GT cars increase to meet demand). That's why I recommended a modern classic to the OP like a 993 Turbo. Buying one would be a liquidity hit, but not a big net worth hit. Even though it's nowhere near as fast as a current 911 Turbo, it's likely to feel much more exciting.

By the way, a Ferrari 308 is worth more like $50-75k. But if I were going for an 80s Ferrari, it would have to be a Testarossa or a F40 .
Last edited by alfaspider on Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by BogleBoogie »

Have you looked at an Acura NSX? This would be the first car I would test drive if that were my budget.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/acura-n ... 2022-leak/
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by researcher »

BogleBoogie wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:02 am Have you looked at an Acura NSX? This would be the first car I would test drive if that were my budget.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/acura-n ... 2022-leak/
It's been recommended about a 1/2 dozen times in this thread.
The OP has stated he intends to check it out.
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by EddyB »

investingdad wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:24 pm
ElBarto wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:46 am
investingdad wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:15 pm
ElBarto wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:02 pm
investingdad wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:25 pm

I'm 46. Our portfolio is just a tad over $3 million and we have maybe 110k in cash. We owe about 180k on our mortgage. Our combined base income is 275k, bonuses can add up to 50k.

I think it's crazy to drop 150k on a car, and I'm coming from almost EXACTLY the same place financially.

But that's me. I watched our portfolio drop 600k in March. It can happen again.

But hey, you do you.
I guess the question is, how much do you spend yearly? We spend $100k-$120k excluding the mortgage. $3 million should more or less cover that spending indefinitely. Why not splurge a little?
120 to 140 a year. Of which 12 is piti.

My old posts will bear this out.
We are in a similar position, almost. A better comparison would be, you have $180k in cash to cover your mortgage plus another 6 months emergency fund as well as having college for your kids fully paid for and covered. Now imagine yourself with $3.5 million of which if you follow the 4% withdrawal rule, you can pul $140k a year making you financially independent. Your home is as you like it, yard looks like you like it, travel often, and still like your job planing on working for at least another decade. Your $3.5 million will hopefully grow on its own without another dollar of contributions yet you still max out your 401k, HSA, and Roth. From this point on, any additional dollar you make is not necessary so you start looking at ways you can add some joy or experiences in your life. This is the position I am coming from.

One month ago, you noted that your portfolio was $3 million.

Now you are saying it's $3.5 million.

Do I believe this? Yes, I'd say it's quite believable because of the increase I've seen in our own portfolio.

And that's where I hit the 'all stop'. By your own account, your portfolio has gyrated near $1 million over 60 days, just like ours has. Which means you were likely bottomed out at maybe $2.7 million back in March.

And you're going to use that to cover 120k expenses for 45+ years. And you want to drop 200k on a car?

Folks that are calling $3 million and a household income of 300k a multimillionaire type situation that can easily drop 200k on a car are not even close, in my opinion.

Are you and I fortunate and comfortable? Extremely.

But 200k car territory? Not even close.

Look, I don't care what you do. But when I figured out we're the same age, have near the same portfolio, and have a sort of similar household income (we brought in 315k last year, so you're higher than us), and you're thinking 200k car? I almost choked on my coffee.
For you, it sounds like a bad choice. But many in that position talk (reasonably) of being on the cusp of ending their working years. Once that becomes plausible and one continues to make $400,000, presumably it’s ok to spend some of that money. On what really depends on the person. For myself, even a $75,000 car would be nowhere near the top of the list, but if the OP expects to continue to work, the money is going to start to stack up pretty fast.
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by JackoC »

helloeveryone wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:36 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:34 pm
hicabob wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:10 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:55 pm
investingdad wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:44 pm Isn't anybody going to inquire about the important milestones the OP referenced?
I was thinking about it. $25M makes sense, although I wouldn’t give him grief if he decided to celebrate getting into 8 digit net worth.
With livesoft's RBD car buying algorithm a measly $5M in equities works for 150-200 nowadays! .... algo is you can spend what you lose/make on a RBD/RGD
I used to use Livesoft's Rule to justify my Tesla Model X. As I became more circumspect about revealing what we have in our taxable account (our fixed income tax deferred accounts are owned up to, because that's how I can discuss our quasi-LMP plan), I stopped disclosing what Livesoft's rule would technically allow us. I think $150-$200k is silly with a $5M NW, unless you're single, older, no kids, pension, etc.
I think Livesoft's Rule needs re-calibration with the heightened volatility of today.
I don't know....I feel like if I have $5 million networth, and I pay cash for a $200,000 car. I still have a $4.8million networth. That's still sitting pretty comfortable.
But that's assuming there is no other lifestyle creep =)
For a one time thing that's how I'd look at it (theoretically at least). If the person comes along announcing a X few mil NW or X few mil minus $200k, who would think that's actually different? There's a strong implicit assumption among those questioning the 'affordability' that it is a general lifestyle creep. Or perhaps as car person putting yourself in those shoes, you get a high end 911 (the consensus choice), love it to death for some years, and are then bummed that your plans don't necessarily support buying another then another.

Though I've seen the 'rule' referred to, I independently got in the habit some years ago of quoting our portfolio ups and downs moves to my wife in terms of cars, delivered brand new for free, or we paid for but just went into the crusher brand new, uninsured. To look at it pseudo-mathematically based on a normal distribution (though we all know the 'tails are fat', especially on the downside of daily moves), 2 std dev one day move at today's S&P level and VIX is around 109 ticks, so assuming 25% cg tax (which I guess most would ignore since it's not serious anyway), around $7.8mil in stocks generates 2 std daily moves of ~$200k after tax. Only ~$3mil generated that move at mid-late March's VIX, at VXO/VIX avg of ~19.3 inception to yesterday, ~$10.8 mil. 3 std devs is more like RG/RB? then 2/3's as much.

Obviously one would not (I hope) literally set a car budget that way, but I think it's a reasonable insight that common fluctuation in value of portfolio might be more directly connected to what feels 'extravagant' in a one off purchase then some % pulled from the air or as result of detailed analysis of far future events with all kind of uncertain assumptions.

At later life stage than OP and those of similar age/means debating, I mildly regret not having gotten cooler, more expensive cars when I was that age and younger. But of course that partly depends on having realized non-disastrous portfolio returns in the meantime. The current mid-40's people don't know that (nor do I, but I have fewer years left, and much more in safe assets than I once did). I don't *deeply* regret it though. And like I said I may never buy a $150-200k car despite zero question of affordability, because I may just never feel like it. Although I like cars. I really like my current $60k car (which I might have mentioned :happy ).
Last edited by JackoC on Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by BruDude »

BogleBoogie wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:02 am Have you looked at an Acura NSX? This would be the first car I would test drive if that were my budget.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/acura-n ... 2022-leak/
The NSX has no soul and it's still an Acura. Too much competition in the price range and the engine sounds terrible compared to other cars at the same level. Would be a compelling car at $75k but not at $110k+ IMO
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by stoptothink »

BruDude wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:22 am
BogleBoogie wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:02 am Have you looked at an Acura NSX? This would be the first car I would test drive if that were my budget.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/acura-n ... 2022-leak/
The NSX has no soul and it's still an Acura. Too much competition in the price range and the engine sounds terrible compared to other cars at the same level. Would be a compelling car at $75k but not at $110k+ IMO
One of my best friends has one - along with a F430, Tesla model S, Porsche speedster kit car, supercharged Range Rover, and a few others - and it was my favorite of his stable to drive. To be fair, the sounds made by the F430 are pretty amazing. If you are purist who loves air-cooled, naturally aspirated engines, and not too much techno wizardry saving you, it is definitely not for you. Based on sales and depreciation, it has been a definite bust with sports car aficionados.
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by eye.surgeon »

I have to admit I didn't read the whole thread but when the OP mentioned Mclaren my earns picked up. Mclaren as you may know if you peruse the forums has suffered lately from steep depreciation and a reputation for less than stellar quality, more so than other supercars. Their dealer network is also regarded poorly by many owners. This is in contrast for example to Ferrari or Porsche. You probably know all this if you're shopping.

Personally I wouldn't consider supercar ownership with a net worth of perhaps $5-7 million.
"I would rather be certain of a good return than hopeful of a great one" | Warren Buffett
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by researcher »

investingdad wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:24 pm Folks that are calling $3 million ... a multimillionaire type situation that can easily drop 200k on a car are not even close, in my opinion.

But 200k car territory? Not even close.
Seriously???
A "multimillionaire type situation" is EXACTLY what the OP is in!!!

I get it. You want to hoard your money for some undefined purpose and some undefined time period (that may never come).

The OP is a multimillionaire. They want to get some enjoyment out of it now, rather than being buried with it.
I see absolutely no problem with the OP's plans.

I haven't seen you explain what exactly you think the problem is, or what the OP should be doing with this money.
Should he just continue to watch it accumulate, while being scared to do anything with it?
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by Afty »

Are there car clubs for exotics the way there are for Porsche (PCA) and BMW (BMW CCA)?
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by Helo80 »

researcher wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:33 am I haven't seen you explain what exactly you think the problem is, or what the OP should be doing with this money.
Should he just continue to watch it accumulate, while being scared to do anything with it?


This is BH and we need to level up with XP (experience points). Spending $150k to $200k on what is likely a depreciating asset does not help.
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by fyre4ce »

Afty wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:36 am Are there car clubs for exotics the way there are for Porsche (PCA) and BMW (BMW CCA)?
I've seen a Ferrari club doing track events before. A quick web search shows there is a Lamborghini club and a McLaren club, but I don't know much about them.
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by investingdad »

researcher wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:33 am
investingdad wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:24 pm Folks that are calling $3 million ... a multimillionaire type situation that can easily drop 200k on a car are not even close, in my opinion.

But 200k car territory? Not even close.
Seriously???
A "multimillionaire type situation" is EXACTLY what the OP is in!!!

I get it. You want to hoard your money for some undefined purpose and some undefined time period (that may never come).

The OP is a multimillionaire. They want to get some enjoyment out of it now, rather than being buried with it.
I see absolutely no problem with the OP's plans.

I haven't seen you explain what exactly you think the problem is, or what the OP should be doing with this money.
Should he just continue to watch it accumulate, while being scared to do anything with it?
I suspect there is a misconception about what type of lifestyle one can afford when trying to make $3 million pay for 45 years of retirement.
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by researcher »

investingdad wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:14 am I suspect there is a misconception about what type of lifestyle one can afford when trying to make $3 million pay for 45 years of retirement.
But that is NOT what position the OP is currently in.

He has explicitly said..."I am still working and adding to the 401k, HSA, Roth."
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by alfaspider »

investingdad wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:14 am
researcher wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:33 am
investingdad wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:24 pm Folks that are calling $3 million ... a multimillionaire type situation that can easily drop 200k on a car are not even close, in my opinion.

But 200k car territory? Not even close.
Seriously???
A "multimillionaire type situation" is EXACTLY what the OP is in!!!

I get it. You want to hoard your money for some undefined purpose and some undefined time period (that may never come).

The OP is a multimillionaire. They want to get some enjoyment out of it now, rather than being buried with it.
I see absolutely no problem with the OP's plans.

I haven't seen you explain what exactly you think the problem is, or what the OP should be doing with this money.
Should he just continue to watch it accumulate, while being scared to do anything with it?
I suspect there is a misconception about what type of lifestyle one can afford when trying to make $3 million pay for 45 years of retirement.
Based on Firecalc, that's around $100k a year spending at 99% success rate. A bit better once social security is taken into account (assuming OP has been a high earner). It's not a champagne and caviar lifestyle, but it's totally doable. However, OP has already stated that they have no intention of actually retiring any time soon, so this is a bit of a straw man.

Spending big $$$ on a car may not fit the bogglehead ideal, but if it's a one-off splurge it's not going to financially ruin OP by any stretch. It's only if it's part of a wider lifestyle creep that such a thing would be an issue. But just because someone is into cars doesn't mean they also want a bigger house or fancier vacations.
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by EddyB »

investingdad wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:14 am
researcher wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:33 am
investingdad wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:24 pm Folks that are calling $3 million ... a multimillionaire type situation that can easily drop 200k on a car are not even close, in my opinion.

But 200k car territory? Not even close.
Seriously???
A "multimillionaire type situation" is EXACTLY what the OP is in!!!

I get it. You want to hoard your money for some undefined purpose and some undefined time period (that may never come).

The OP is a multimillionaire. They want to get some enjoyment out of it now, rather than being buried with it.
I see absolutely no problem with the OP's plans.

I haven't seen you explain what exactly you think the problem is, or what the OP should be doing with this money.
Should he just continue to watch it accumulate, while being scared to do anything with it?
I suspect there is a misconception about what type of lifestyle one can afford when trying to make $3 million pay for 45 years of retirement.
You and Tomato have pushed the Bogleheads brand of disdain for early retirement to a new extreme! The OP has enough money to go a long way toward supporting his current lifestyle and plans to continue to make probably twice as much as that.... Now you can criticize anyone who mentions the 4% rule as being a delusional pie-in-the-sky dreamer. This is bizarro version of the tut-tutting over whether someone who "retires," but keeps a "side hustle" is really retired!
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

EddyB wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:44 am You and Tomato have pushed the Bogleheads brand of disdain for early retirement to a new extreme! The OP has enough money to go a long way toward supporting his current lifestyle and plans to continue to make probably twice as much as that....
OP has said he’s not retiring early and that he intends to continue earning. The reason I brought up retirement at all was in regards to his mention of the 4% “Rule,” which is usually invoked in terms of the income one can draw down in retirement.

I’ve said I don’t begrudge him his choice of automobile, but that I would not in his circumstances spend that much on a car. I admit I’m perhaps excessiveLy conservative. I referred to it as belt and suspenders.

Yes, I’m long FI and short RE. You consider it extreme; I don’t. I have seen what can happen when it goes wrong. I knew many people doing fabulously well around 2008, only to go tits up. Some of them even had very expensive cars :D
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.
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Re: What fun car should I get in the $150k - $200k range?

Post by EddyB »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:58 am
EddyB wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:44 am You and Tomato have pushed the Bogleheads brand of disdain for early retirement to a new extreme! The OP has enough money to go a long way toward supporting his current lifestyle and plans to continue to make probably twice as much as that....
OP has said he’s not retiring early and that he intends to continue earning. The reason I brought up retirement at all was in regards to his mention of the 4% “Rule,” which is usually invoked in terms of the income one can draw down in retirement.

I’ve said I don’t begrudge him his choice of automobile, but that I would not in his circumstances spend that much on a car. I admit I’m perhaps excessiveLy conservative. I referred to it as belt and suspenders.

Yes, I’m long FI and short RE. You consider it extreme; I don’t. I have seen what can happen when it goes wrong. I knew many people doing fabulously well around 2008, only to go tits up. Some of them even had very expensive cars :D
No, I don't consider your approach---or the OP's approach---to be extreme. I consider both (or what I know of them) to be reasonable.

But I consider what I took to be a couple of critiques that appear similar to common FIRE criticisms to be extreme.
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