New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

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atikovi
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by atikovi »

cbr shadow wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 1:37 pm - SUV since I'm told getting a baby in and out of an SUV is a big convenience over bending over into a sedan.
A minivan with sliding doors would be a better choice if that is a primary criteria.
mpnret
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by mpnret »

ponyboy wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 6:25 am Should be able to disable that permanently.
You can. There is a simple plug in device for the Forester that eliminates stop/start. There are also driving techniques to prevent it. I had a 2020 Forester loaner while my 2016 was in for a recall. I didn't find stop/start to to be an issue but it's nice to know if someone does you can avoid it.
atikovi
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by atikovi »

rockstar wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 4:17 pm I test drove a Forester, and I found it disconcerting when the engine turned off at a stop light. I know this is to save gas, but I find it super annoying.
Maybe because I'm an early adopter and have had cars with stop/start since 2001, I think it's one of the best features in cars these days. You come to a stoplight and not have to run the engine for 2 minutes. You sit there in smooth silence. Saving gas is just a side benefit.
More Please
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by More Please »

Bought a Rav 4 in September, enjoy driving it. Went to NYC at Christmas and saw that all the yellow taxis are RAV 4’s. Then I figured I had made the right decision.
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

tvubpwcisla wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:39 pm Here is a vote for the Toyota RAV4.

What you should know before buying a Subaru - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKPnpWd2P-I

Scotty - you either love him or you don't.

:mrgreen:
I watched the video. Half way through, I couldn't hold any more of his mistakes in my head.

He says not to buy a V6 Subaru. Subaru has never made a V6.
He then talks about head gasket issues on the boxer 6. The H6 engines have never, ever had a head gasket issue. This was primarily with the H4's before they went to MLS gaskets.
He talks about not buying an H6 that was subject to the valve spring recall. The H6 was NOT subject to the valve spring recall. That was for the FA20 and FB20 (crosstrek, impreza, BRZ).
He talks about parts non availability. He must be going to Buba's Parts and BBQ or something. These cars are legos and parts fit many vehicles and are easily available on Rock Auto and there are online dealers who sell cheap.
He says there are no dealers. Well, in Houston, where he appears to be, I can see that. I would expect that he's not going to find a lot of snowmobiles for sale near him either. Where I am, if I draw a 50 mile radius line, I have 30 dealers.

Clearly, this guy is making things up as he goes along based on things he's heard.
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bloom2708
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by bloom2708 »

Will there be a kid 2 or kid 3?

Never too early to think a bit farther ahead. Kid 1 is usually followed by kid 2 in the next few years.

That is usually within the lifetime of your next car purchase.

I would probably pick neither the Forester or the Rav4 if kid 2 is in the mix.
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tibbitts
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by tibbitts »

More Please wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 7:53 am Bought a Rav 4 in September, enjoy driving it. Went to NYC at Christmas and saw that all the yellow taxis are RAV 4’s. Then I figured I had made the right decision.
That seems to be an odd measure for success. Was your previous car a Crown Victoria?
tibbitts
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by tibbitts »

Maybe the OP is just wanting a transitional car for a couple of year pre-minivan, in which case that should open up the possiblity of lots of less reliable and faster-depreciating brands where buying used makes more sense.
Living Free
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by Living Free »

You might appreciate the following article: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/co ... omparison/. Car and driver seems to favor handling/driving dynamics above all else, but if you read the text of the reviews you get a good sense of what they liked and didn't like about a particular car.
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mmmodem
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by mmmodem »

Both Forester and RAV4 didn't get Apple Carplay until the 2019 model year. That means to get either for $20k used will be slim pickings if not impossible. Given both your vehicles work fine, I would wait until Nov-Dec to purchase your vehicle after your child comes home before purchase. Who knows, you might even find the liftover height of your Prius completely adequate.

Disclaimer: We owned 2 Prius and have children. I found the baby carrier very easily lifted into the Prius. You'd have to lift higher in an SUV. It's when they outgrew the carrier between 1 and 2 when you had to lift just them into their car seat that the SUV made it easier.
cyclist
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by cyclist »

You’re going to have to sit in them. My daughter thought she’d buy a Forester, but ended up with an Outback instead. We both found the Outback much, much more comfortable.

Put on your mask, grab the hand sanitizer, and try them. The Internet can’t tell you which one will feel right to you.

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rockstar
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by rockstar »

illumination wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 5:14 pm I absolutely hate that feature, I would almost call it a deal breaker if a car has it. What I don't understand is why not make it something you can turn off one time and not EVERY time you start the car.
That's my problem with it. You have to turn it off every time you get in the vehicle. Also, I didn't look under the hood, but don't you need AGM batteries for vehicles that have this feature?
FoolStreet
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by FoolStreet »

TravelGeek wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:27 pm
ThankYouJack wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 5:28 pm I rented a Jeep Cherokee which had the same feature and I too found it annoying but got used to it after a couple days. I'm guessing the majority of cars will eventually do this to save gas/emissions.
Our Priuses had that feature. And most non-hybrid cars I have rented in Europe in the last five or so years have had this feature. Worked fine for me, never a concern. My LEAF has it too :twisted:
Ha ha. Hmm... what could we possibly invent to prevent an engine from constantly turning on and off to save gas??? :beer
tomd37
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by tomd37 »

I got my first driver's license sixty-seven years ago and have driven everything from a floor shift 1937 DeSoto to the automatics that are offered these days. And my newest car now is a 2019 Subaru Outback, 3.6R engine in the Touring trim line that has a CVT transmission. What I don't understand is why all the bad comments about CVT transmissions and especially those in the newer cars today. Just two hours ago I merged onto the local interstate and stepped on the accelerator pretty hard with a very impressive response. 8-) Saw no difference between it and my previous five-speed automatic.
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Tubes
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by Tubes »

tomd37 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:49 am I got my first driver's license sixty-seven years ago and have driven everything from a floor shift 1937 DeSoto to the automatics that are offered these days. And my newest car now is a 2019 Subaru Outback, 3.6R engine in the Touring trim line that has a CVT transmission. What I don't understand is why all the bad comments about CVT transmissions and especially those in the newer cars today. Just two hours ago I merged onto the local interstate and stepped on the accelerator pretty hard with a very impressive response. 8-) Saw no difference between it and my previous five-speed automatic.
Agree. It is just different, that's all. Still works, and will respond as needed. I have the smaller engine on my 2010 Legacy and it still goes enough when I need it.

I used to be a manual transmission bigot, so this stuff matters to me. Every now and then I use the paddle shifters in "M" mode just to have some fun.

My only concern about the CVT is possible reliability issues. So far, 10 1/2 years and 130k miles and knock on wood it is OK.
inbox788
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by inbox788 »

atikovi wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 7:00 am
cbr shadow wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 1:37 pm - SUV since I'm told getting a baby in and out of an SUV is a big convenience over bending over into a sedan.
A minivan with sliding doors would be a better choice if that is a primary criteria.
Two great choices, at the top of my short list for a new purchase in the distant to not so distant future.

Minivans are great, but I wouldn't let this issue alone make me spend all that extra. Cost difference between 5 passenger sedan and SUV is less.

You probably know about the CRV and have formed some opinion on the oil dilution issue, so we'll skip that.

Hyundai Tuscon (Kia Sportage) and Mazda CX5 are good alternatives, but there's really no reason to stray from the Forester or Rav4 if that's your preference, unless you find an exceedingly great deal. Overall, price and features are very comparable, but because they may not be in as high demand, your chances of coming across someone in a hurry to sell one is slightly greater, but anytime you find too great a price, you've got to wonder if there's something you're missing, so be sure to check it out extensively.

I think you've already eliminated this, but if you prefer luxury over performance and don't mind a bit more used and paying a little more, Lexus NX and Acura RDX are the obvious choices in that price range.
guyinlaw
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by guyinlaw »

Get the RAV4 hybrid. Toyota's hybrid track record is the best. RAV4 is amazing vehicle. You will get better mileage than Forester.
Time is your friend; impulse is your enemy. - John C. Bogle
maroon
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by maroon »

Forester owners: "Get the Forester."
RAV4 owners: "Get the RAV4."
I'm a Forester owner. :happy
SR II
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by SR II »

I'm in the Forester camp as we bought our second one new in 2019.

Something OP should be aware of with Foresters; they were redesigned for 2019 and I feel much improved over our 2016. Due to their high re-sale price, if you were thinking of spending $20k, you will probably be looking at the previous model, without quite as many standard bells and whistles. But, if you can find the latest model for $20K, it will more than likely be a higher mileage 2019. And you know what "they" say about buying the first model year of a vehicle.
anthonyphamy
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by anthonyphamy »

What'd you end up getting? I'm deciding between those two as well. Although with the RAV4, I'm also considering the hybrid and Prime (with the EV rebates) as potential options. Thanks.
finite_difference
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by finite_difference »

guyinlaw wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 12:45 am Get the RAV4 hybrid. Toyota's hybrid track record is the best. RAV4 is amazing vehicle. You will get better mileage than Forester.
Toyota owns 20% of Subaru, and I think Subaru will be using Toyota hybrid technology moving forward, with a transition to full EV across its lineup by ~ 2035.

I vote RAV4 hybrid for fuel economy, and Subaru Forester if you want AWD. Considering it hasn’t snowed in San Francisco since 1976, not sure how much use you’ll get out of AWD. It’s superior but is it worth 15 mpg in city driving (5 on highway)?
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02nz
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by 02nz »

finite_difference wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 1:35 pm
guyinlaw wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 12:45 am Get the RAV4 hybrid. Toyota's hybrid track record is the best. RAV4 is amazing vehicle. You will get better mileage than Forester.
Toyota owns 20% of Subaru, and I think Subaru will be using Toyota hybrid technology moving forward, with a transition to full EV across its lineup by ~ 2035.
It already does. Subaru only has one hybrid model (Crosstrek PHEV), and it uses technology from Toyota. Unfortunately, despite Toyota's early lead on hybrid vehicles, it's way behind with EVs, and it still has not come to market with a volume EV.
guyinlaw
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by guyinlaw »

02nz wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 1:44 pm
finite_difference wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 1:35 pm
guyinlaw wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 12:45 am Get the RAV4 hybrid. Toyota's hybrid track record is the best. RAV4 is amazing vehicle. You will get better mileage than Forester.
Toyota owns 20% of Subaru, and I think Subaru will be using Toyota hybrid technology moving forward, with a transition to full EV across its lineup by ~ 2035.
It already does. Subaru only has one hybrid model (Crosstrek PHEV), and it uses technology from Toyota. Unfortunately, despite Toyota's early lead on hybrid vehicles, it's way behind with EVs, and it still has not come to market with a volume EV.
Hybrid vehicles are far Superior in every way than EVs. Only thing EV does better is higher torque at launch giving a jolt and fun to the drivers.

Toyota has EVs that they sell in Japan for more than a decade. EVs are more ancient that gas engines.
The first electric car in the United States was developed in 1890-91 by William Morrison of Des Moines, Iowa; the vehicle was a six-passenger wagon ..
Time is your friend; impulse is your enemy. - John C. Bogle
Bratbill
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by Bratbill »

Just bought a new Jeep..union made right here in the USA .Detroit, MI !!!
It too has the engine stop at lights etc..but you can turn it off if you don’t want to conserve energy/gas.
As I recall salesman said it was worth 3-5 miles per gallon depending on driving!
stoptothink
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by stoptothink »

ballons wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 7:50 pm
cbr shadow wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 1:37 pm - SUV since I'm told getting a baby in and out of an SUV is a big convenience over bending over into a sedan. We're both in very good physical health, if that's a factor.
- New safety features, Apple Connect features, bluetooth.
- Reasonably good gas mileage. No big SUV's.
$20,000 just to not bend down?
That's essentially what the suv/crossover market is based on. It'll be less efficient, perform worse under most conditions, and cost more, but it looks cooler than a wagon (I personally disagree) and you won't have to bend down.
02nz
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by 02nz »

guyinlaw wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 3:00 pm Hybrid vehicles are far Superior in every way than EVs. Only thing EV does better is higher torque at launch giving a jolt and fun to the drivers.
I'm a big proponent of hybrids and plug-in hybrids, as they make better use of a currently limited CO2-reducing resource (battery cells) than EVs.

But "far superior in every way [to] EVs"? LOL. EVs (and PHEVs operating in EV mode) are much quieter and smoother. They are significantly cheaper to charge (this depends on electric and gas rates, but even at current depressed gas prices, my Volt is about 50% cheaper to charge than to run on gasoline). Pure EVs are also mechanically simpler and generally more reliable, as they lack almost all of the components that cost most to repair on a gasoline car (engine, transmission).
guyinlaw wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 3:00 pm EVs are more ancient that gas engines.
The first electric car in the United States was developed in 1890-91 by William Morrison of Des Moines, Iowa; the vehicle was a six-passenger wagon ..
Your point being ...?
02nz
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by 02nz »

Bratbill wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 3:05 pm Just bought a new Jeep..union made right here in the USA .Detroit, MI !!!
It too has the engine stop at lights etc..but you can turn it off if you don’t want to conserve energy/gas.
As I recall salesman said it was worth 3-5 miles per gallon depending on driving!
Your salesman lied. (I know, shocking!)

Even under ideal circumstances (heavy traffic), it's around an 8% improvement in fuel economy (https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/c ... l-savings/). That's a good thing, but unless your Jeep gets 40-60 MPG, no, you're not going to see 3-5 MPG extra.
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by stoptothink »

02nz wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 3:43 pm
Bratbill wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 3:05 pm Just bought a new Jeep..union made right here in the USA .Detroit, MI !!!
It too has the engine stop at lights etc..but you can turn it off if you don’t want to conserve energy/gas.
As I recall salesman said it was worth 3-5 miles per gallon depending on driving!
Your salesman lied. (I know, shocking!)

Even under ideal circumstances (heavy traffic), it's around an 8% improvement in fuel economy (https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/c ... l-savings/). That's a good thing, but unless your Jeep gets 40-60 MPG, no, you're not going to see 3-5 MPG extra.
What, you're not putting it in neutral and revving to redline at every stoplight?
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by BernardShakey »

I have a 2011 RAV4 that I bought used (a year old with about 9,000 miles). It is the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned and I'm now 57. I too considered the Forester at the time. It was a toss up. If making the choice again, I'd look real hard at safety and reliability to help me decide.
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by hicabob »

The 2021 plug-in rav-4 prime sounds like it will be interesting - just under $40k so not cheap but sensible, fast, 40 miles plug-in, 4wd, 42mpg, >300horsepower
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

tomd37 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:49 am I got my first driver's license sixty-seven years ago and have driven everything from a floor shift 1937 DeSoto to the automatics that are offered these days. And my newest car now is a 2019 Subaru Outback, 3.6R engine in the Touring trim line that has a CVT transmission. What I don't understand is why all the bad comments about CVT transmissions and especially those in the newer cars today. Just two hours ago I merged onto the local interstate and stepped on the accelerator pretty hard with a very impressive response. 8-) Saw no difference between it and my previous five-speed automatic.
Drive an early Crosstrek or Impreza with the CVT. They're pretty horrible, in my opinion. On top of that, lots of them failed and Subaru extended the warranty to cover them to 10 years/100k miles. Our 13 Crosstrek CVT was replaced at 53k miles. I do not know if they used the HTCVT (next gen) when replacing, but it still revs to infinity when trying to accelerate. The transmissions have improved dramatically over the years. We have a 17 Legacy with a CVT and it doesn't seem any different from a shifting transmission. Oh, and our 13 Crosstrek is at 107k miles and still going.
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m@ver1ck
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by m@ver1ck »

Duplicate.
Last edited by m@ver1ck on Sat May 30, 2020 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
m@ver1ck
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by m@ver1ck »

Test drive both. I have had both. I now have a forester that I love for it's practicality and for eyesight but hate driving it. The brake and gas pedal too far apart for me and seat is also uncomfortable - and puts undue stress on my groin crease.

I also drive VWs and find them horrid from a resale perspective but love driving. They just fit me right - like a glove!

I only use the forester when we go mountain biking. Wife uses it otherwise - but hates the face we get it muddy - and I have to clean it after every use. Would just leave it muddy otherwise. :-)
theplayer11
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by theplayer11 »

test drive a cx-5 turbo and I bet you buy it over forrester or rav4
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by tibbitts »

Bratbill wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 3:05 pm Just bought a new Jeep..union made right here in the USA .Detroit, MI !!!
It too has the engine stop at lights etc..but you can turn it off if you don’t want to conserve energy/gas.
As I recall salesman said it was worth 3-5 miles per gallon depending on driving!
The issue is that some cars don't let you permanently program the vehicle to disable stop/start.
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Sandi_k
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by Sandi_k »

bob60014 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 5:49 pm We recently purchased a Rav 4 Hybrid Limited and love it. Comfortable, great features, easy to maneuver and 40+ mpg around town.
+1 - I've had mine since October, and I'm averaging 43 mpg in the Bay Area. Nearly 200 hp, so no issue with Bay Area topography.

If you drive to Tahoe every weekend, I could see it feeling underpowered compared to say, a Lexus full size RX350 (my last car, with a 6 cylinder engine). But for daily driving, I'll take the 43 mpg over the 21 mpg I was getting in the RX. ;)

If you insist on buying used, note that the 2018 RAV4 is an entirely different platform, and gets more like 30 mpg.

Also - Apple CarPlay may or may not be included in the older cars. so check for that specifically if it's important to you.

The Tech Package has all the bells & whistles - adaptive cruise control, proximity alert, lane control, a quick charge pad for your phone, automatic braking, etc.
Pigeon
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by Pigeon »

I bought a 2019 Forester and also looked at the RAV4. Both are great choices. The visibility was considerably better for me in the Subaru. I do love Toyotas. But I couldn't be happier with the Subaru. I turn the stop start thing off. You get used to doing it routinely when you start the car.

Having raised to kids just fine with Corollas, I can't imagine what the issue would be in a Subaru Forester or RAV4.

I live in a snowy northern area. Although there are lots of Subarus on the road, there are pretty few dealers.
UpperNwGuy
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by UpperNwGuy »

tibbitts wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 6:32 pm
Bratbill wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 3:05 pm Just bought a new Jeep..union made right here in the USA .Detroit, MI !!!
It too has the engine stop at lights etc..but you can turn it off if you don’t want to conserve energy/gas.
As I recall salesman said it was worth 3-5 miles per gallon depending on driving!
The issue is that some cars don't let you permanently program the vehicle to disable stop/start.
Why do you consider that to be an issue?
jon63
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Re: New Vehicle: Forester or Rav4 for boglehead couple

Post by jon63 »

keep the Prius, has years of reliable life left, if your dead set on another vehicle, Toyotas are bomb proof, also lowest maintenance cost. anything goes wrong with AWD vehicle drive system it can cost big bucks.
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