Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

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Cubicle
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Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by Cubicle »

Looking for any advice & solutions. Family member:

Born in USA (American citizen by birth)
Has USA passport, expiring July 2020
Turned 18 two months ago, thus…
Received last passport when under 18 years old (can’t renew by mail)

Wants to travel to South America in August
Is also a citizen of said South American country (naturalized via parents), and…
Has passport for said South American country valid until 2024

As per the USA State Department website, because he was under 18 when the last USA passport was issued, he cannot renew by mail. However, he can submit the paperwork, fees, & photos to a Passport Acceptance Facility. There are several near him.

Due to Covid-19:
USA State Deparment wrote:we have extremely limited U.S. passport operations… if you apply or renew now, you will experience significant delays of several months to receive your U.S. passport…
My idea was to use the South American Passport departing & returning. However:
USA State Department wrote:U.S. nationals, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport to travel to or from a country other than the United States is not inconsistent with U.S. law.
^^^ The bold was not mine. That is the State Department's emphasis.

In person passport processing is currently for life & death situations, as per the USA State Department website.

The family member & his parents, are all aware of the risks of traveling due to Covid-19. I have already recommend the travel does not happen. If we could avoid comments advising against travel, it would be preferred.

So… any ideas?
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iceman99
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by iceman99 »

Leaving the US is not an issue. Coming back will be painful without a valid passport. He can try getting an emergency passport via a US consulate while abroad but having gone through that myself, it is very stressful and there are no guarantees he will be able to get through. Hours are short, lines are very long, and it is very hard to find someone to speak to in general.

I would try getting an emergency one while in the US if possible. August is still 2-3 months away so there is a chance. Otherwise, I wouldn't risk it.
jminv
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by jminv »

Cubicle wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 10:27 am Looking for any advice & solutions. Family member:

Born in USA (American citizen by birth)
Has USA passport, expiring July 2020
Turned 18 two months ago, thus…
Received last passport when under 18 years old (can’t renew by mail)

Wants to travel to South America in August
Is also a citizen of said South American country (naturalized via parents), and…
Has passport for said South American country valid until 2024

As per the USA State Department website, because he was under 18 when the last USA passport was issued, he cannot renew by mail. However, he can submit the paperwork, fees, & photos to a Passport Acceptance Facility. There are several near him.

Due to Covid-19:
USA State Deparment wrote:we have extremely limited U.S. passport operations… if you apply or renew now, you will experience significant delays of several months to receive your U.S. passport…
My idea was to use the South American Passport departing & returning. However:
USA State Department wrote:U.S. nationals, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport to travel to or from a country other than the United States is not inconsistent with U.S. law.
^^^ The bold was not mine. That is the State Department's emphasis.

In person passport processing is currently for life & death situations, as per the USA State Department website.

The family member & his parents, are all aware of the risks of traveling due to Covid-19. I have already recommend the travel does not happen. If we could avoid comments advising against travel, it would be preferred.

So… any ideas?
At this time, the USA will only expedite passports for 'life and death emergencies'. So you're looking at a delay of several months, as you noted. Before anyone suggests it, they've closed the in-person passport centers that offered same day passports.

Your solution seems pretty simple since you want to fly in August. Apply for it immediately since the delay is 'several months'. You'll likely have it by the time you want to travel. If you don't have it around the time you want to travel then it's time to consider other options. Basically if you don't have it until August you'll still be able to get out but it's the getting in that's the issue but depending on how long your trip is chances are that passports will have been received at home and can be sent express DHL to meet them. Or family can go to embassy with expired passports and get an emergency passport issued to get back home.
Last edited by jminv on Sun May 17, 2020 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BolderBoy
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by BolderBoy »

Cubicle wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 10:27 amAs per the USA State Department website, because he was under 18 when the last USA passport was issued, he cannot renew by mail. However, he can submit the paperwork, fees, & photos to a Passport Acceptance Facility. There are several near him.
Do this right away (like tomorrow). Cross fingers and hope the new passport comes in time?
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ram
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by ram »

It may not help but I will at least keep the expired passport with me when trying to reenter.
Ram
harrychan
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by harrychan »

Options are very limited. There is no magic bullet. Wait till in person appt (libraries, processing centers, post offices) have availability. I would double check on that. Under any circumstances, do not attempt to re-enter with the S. American passport or with an expired US passport.
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.
snowman
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by snowman »

ram wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 11:42 am It may not help but I will at least keep the expired passport with me when trying to reenter.
Not a good idea. It will raise further questions, like "why did you leave the country with clearly expired US passport which you knew is a no-no?" Officially, the US does not recognize dual citizenship (you renounce it when you become citizen), but it is "tolerated" by recommending you leave and enter the US with your US passport. Once abroad, they don't care which passport you use between third countries.

I would not risk it. My recommendation is to apply today by mail, and hope it will be here by August. My guess is that number of applications is significantly lower than usual, so there is a good chance passport will arrive on time. If it doesn't, I would cancel travel plans.
Thegame14
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by Thegame14 »

sorry that is 100% NOT happening....he needs to wait and get a new passport, we arent going to see international travel in 2020....
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ResearchMed
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by ResearchMed »

Just curious...

What would happen to such a person upon trying to re-enter the USA.
(This assumes that *leaving* the country on that "other country's" passport works.)

I thought the USA would *not* deny entry to a US citizen, although arriving without a valid passport would delay things while Immigrations verifies who you are, etc.
There might be sanctions for leaving without a valid passport, but wouldn't they still "let you in IF you are a citizen"?

The only situation like this that I am aware of - and *not* from personal experience, fortunately - is when someone who went on a cruise that did not require a passport (e.g., Carribean/Bahamas/etc.) had some sort of emergency and needed to fly home early.
The docs needed to board the cruise are not always sufficient to re-enter the country by air.
Those people did not need to have a passport at all; it's not just that they left passports at home or such.
(This may/many not still be the situation...?)

RM
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snowman
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by snowman »

ResearchMed wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:13 pm Just curious...

What would happen to such a person upon trying to re-enter the USA.
(This assumes that *leaving* the country on that "other country's" passport works.)

I thought the USA would *not* deny entry to a US citizen, although arriving without a valid passport would delay things while Immigrations verifies who you are, etc.
There might be sanctions for leaving without a valid passport, but wouldn't they still "let you in IF you are a citizen"?

The only situation like this that I am aware of - and *not* from personal experience, fortunately - is when someone who went on a cruise that did not require a passport (e.g., Carribean/Bahamas/etc.) had some sort of emergency and needed to fly home early.
The docs needed to board the cruise are not always sufficient to re-enter the country by air.
Those people did not need to have a passport at all; it's not just that they left passports at home or such.
(This may/many not still be the situation...?)

RM
I don't know the answer to that, mostly because I never tried. The rules are very clear though. Just thinking through the process, I don't know how you would leave the country to begin with. The agent will ask for US passport, and you will say I don't have it, but here is an alternative "SA" passport. That's a no-go if you are a US citizen, not sure what the protocol is when that happens.

You could also lie and say I am not a US citizen, sorry no US passport, but here is a "SA" one. The next step is to check the visa and collect the form I-94, or ask for green card if you are permanent resident but not a citizen. This person will not be able to produce either, which immediately raises red flag. I don't know what the current protocol is when that happens, but the way it worked in the past is that you are allowed to leave the country but not allowed to re-enter (you got flagged and no visa for you for at least 10 years, many times for life).

So the question becomes what happens to this individual who broke the law leaving the country on a foreign passport when trying to re-enter and claiming they are US citizen without valid US passport. I don't know, but I would not want to find out personally. I would not risk it at all! Clearly, the obvious choice here is no travel due to Covid-19, but that option was ruled out by OP. So the only realistic choice here is to apply immediately, then hope it gets here on time, then hope you can actually travel...
seawolf21
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by seawolf21 »

ram wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 11:42 am It may not help but I will at least keep the expired passport with me when trying to reenter.
harrychan wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 11:59 am Options are very limited. There is no magic bullet. Wait till in person appt (libraries, processing centers, post offices) have availability. I would double check on that. Under any circumstances, do not attempt to re-enter with the S. American passport or with an expired US passport.
Entering US with an expired US passport is not a problem. Problem is convincing the airline to board passenger. Airline will not board passenger on return unless the other passport is VWP and even then an ESTA is required.

Options are to start the application process now if possible. If not then if passenger is near a US consulate/embassy in foreign country, apply for a limited validity passport. Need same form/photo as applying in US. US embassy should take credit card or USD.

Turnaround should be next or a couple of days as they should be able to print limited validity passport onsite. The plus for a limited validity is you actually can get an extra year for the same price as a 10 year passport. The limited validity is valid for 1 year. If within that 1 year period, applicant submits a passport application in the US, no fee is charged. The passport will be 10 year from 2nd application date. Essentially the fee paid at the US embassy gets you potentially 11 years.
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by galawdawg »

8 USC 1185 provides in relevant part that "it shall be unlawful for any citizen of the United States to depart from or enter, or attempt to depart from or enter, the United States unless he bears a valid United States passport."

I'd recommend that your family member apply for a new US passport ASAP if they want to have any hope of traveling internationally in August. Their dual nationality really has no relevance. They may want to purchase fully refundable airline tickets in the event the passport does not arrive in time, unless they are willing to simply change their flights to a later date. Many airlines now permit that flexibility at no cost even on the lowest cost tickets that ordinarily don't permit changes.
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by TravelGeek »

ResearchMed wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:13 pm Just curious...

What would happen to such a person upon trying to re-enter the USA.
(This assumes that *leaving* the country on that "other country's" passport works.)

I thought the USA would *not* deny entry to a US citizen, although arriving without a valid passport would delay things while Immigrations verifies who you are, etc.
The problem is getting to the border. Airlines will want to see valid immigration documents before allowing you to board their aircraft to the US.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by ResearchMed »

galawdawg wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:01 pm 8 USC 1185 provides in relevant part that "it shall be unlawful for any citizen of the United States to depart from or enter, or attempt to depart from or enter, the United States unless he bears a valid United States passport."

I'd recommend that your family member apply for a new US passport ASAP if they want to have any hope of traveling internationally in August. Their dual nationality really has no relevance. They may want to purchase fully refundable airline tickets in the event the passport does not arrive in time, unless they are willing to simply change their flights to a later date. Many airlines now permit that flexibility at no cost even on the lowest cost tickets that ordinarily don't permit changes.
Is this law new?

At least in the past, *no* passport was needed for certain cruises (usually leaving from Florida, and always closed loop).
Regular ID such as Drivers License was sufficient.

From current (today) CBP website:

https://help.cbp.gov/s/article/Article- ... uage=en_US

"...U.S. citizens on closed-loop cruises will be able to enter or depart the country with proof of citizenship, such as an Enhanced Driver's License (EDL), a government-issued birth certificate (issued by the Vital Records Department in the state where he or she was born) or passport, and if 16 or older, a government issued driver's license, picture ID, denoting photo, name and date of birth...."

Even an Enhanced DL is not yet required for a US citizen to enter the USA from a closed loop cruise. (And it this case, those same docs are sufficient to board the ship.)

NOTE: Any of the countries the ship stops at MAY require passports, and in that case, the cruise line will probably not let you board without one. But that is not a USA regulation.

There were many (!) warnings on CruiseCritic about how IF there were some emergency and one needed to fly back, it would be tedious.
And I don't know in that case how one would get ON the plane... unless one went to a USA Embassy/Consulate first - in which case, wouldn't the ID check occur there?
One response on CC was that with the VERY cheap cruises, the cost of a passport could be prohibitive (!?)... sort of like the amount one could pay for another complete cruise.

ETA: TravelGeek - right. I was already writing this response with that same question: How does one get ON that plane heading to a US border without a passport? Obviously the IS a way to do it, as it has occurred occasionally to cruise passengers, due to emergency need to get home, or ... just missing the ship (if you got on without a passport).

RM
Last edited by ResearchMed on Sun May 17, 2020 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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fogalog
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by fogalog »

Note to the posters recommending carrying the expired passport. You cannot both apply for a passport and travel on the second country passport with the expired US passport: the person applying will need to submit that expired US passport as part of the application process.

In addition, if the passport is expiring or expired then I assume it was issued prior to age 16... in which case you cannot renew by mail anyway; you need to apply in person at an acceptance centre.

I am in exactly the same situation with a family member and have been investigating (soon-to-expire passport for minor). My conclusion is that we're stuck until the acceptance facilities open up again. The airline is offering credit, which is good but not (yet) refunds, so we're waiting. Nothing else to do, unfortunately so no point worrying.

Good luck!
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by TravelGeek »

ResearchMed wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:16 pm
ETA: TravelGeek - right. I was already writing this response with that same question: How does one get ON that plane heading to a US border without a passport? Obviously the IS a way to do it, as it has occurred occasionally to cruise passengers, due to emergency need to get home, or ... just missing the ship (if you got on without a passport).

RM
I suspect emergencies are resolved with the help of embassies or consulates. Or exceptions are made by immigration officers (domestic flight from Seattle to Anchorage gets diverted to Vancouver, BC... what happens to passengers without passport?)

Not sure the OP’s scenario qualifies as an emergency.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by ResearchMed »

Agreed. And also not sure that "missing the cruise ship" is an "emergency". Well, by the time the ship has sailed, I guess it IS an emergency then, about how to get home!

I was mostly questioning:
galawdawg wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:01 pm 8 USC 1185 provides in relevant part that "it shall be unlawful for any citizen of the United States to depart from or enter, or attempt to depart from or enter, the United States unless he bears a valid United States passport."

I'd recommend that your family member apply for a new US passport ASAP if they want to have any hope of traveling internationally in August. Their dual nationality really has no relevance. They may want to purchase fully refundable airline tickets in the event the passport does not arrive in time, unless they are willing to simply change their flights to a later date. Many airlines now permit that flexibility at no cost even on the lowest cost tickets that ordinarily don't permit changes.
[emphasis added]

Those cruise passengers I've mentioned were not breaking the law, and their departure and arrival back at the port was typically uneventful.

:confused

RM
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by cherijoh »

Cubicle wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 10:27 am Looking for any advice & solutions. Family member:

Born in USA (American citizen by birth)
Has USA passport, expiring July 2020
Turned 18 two months ago, thus…
Received last passport when under 18 years old (can’t renew by mail)

Wants to travel to South America in August
Is also a citizen of said South American country (naturalized via parents), and…
Has passport for said South American country valid until 2024

As per the USA State Department website, because he was under 18 when the last USA passport was issued, he cannot renew by mail. However, he can submit the paperwork, fees, & photos to a Passport Acceptance Facility. There are several near him.

Due to Covid-19:
USA State Deparment wrote:we have extremely limited U.S. passport operations… if you apply or renew now, you will experience significant delays of several months to receive your U.S. passport…
My idea was to use the South American Passport departing & returning. However:
USA State Department wrote:U.S. nationals, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport to travel to or from a country other than the United States is not inconsistent with U.S. law.
^^^ The bold was not mine. That is the State Department's emphasis.

In person passport processing is currently for life & death situations, as per the USA State Department website.

The family member & his parents, are all aware of the risks of traveling due to Covid-19. I have already recommend the travel does not happen. If we could avoid comments advising against travel, it would be preferred.

So… any ideas?
In today's environment I would be worried about additional travel restrictions between the US and this SA country. With a valid US passport they should be able to get back into the country but I wouldn't want to test it with an expired passport. Is the young adult traveling by him- or herself or with other family members? Are there relatives that would house him/her if unable to board the flight back to the US?

As others pointed out getting out of the counry isn't the issue, it is getting back in!
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by rob65 »

ResearchMed wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:39 pm Agreed. And also not sure that "missing the cruise ship" is an "emergency". Well, by the time the ship has sailed, I guess it IS an emergency then, about how to get home!

I was mostly questioning:
galawdawg wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:01 pm 8 USC 1185 provides in relevant part that "it shall be unlawful for any citizen of the United States to depart from or enter, or attempt to depart from or enter, the United States unless he bears a valid United States passport."

I'd recommend that your family member apply for a new US passport ASAP if they want to have any hope of traveling internationally in August. Their dual nationality really has no relevance. They may want to purchase fully refundable airline tickets in the event the passport does not arrive in time, unless they are willing to simply change their flights to a later date. Many airlines now permit that flexibility at no cost even on the lowest cost tickets that ordinarily don't permit changes.
[emphasis added]

Those cruise passengers I've mentioned were not breaking the law, and their departure and arrival back at the port was typically uneventful.

:confused

RM
There is an exception for closed loop cruises leaving from and returning to a US port, but the OP is planning to leave the country by air, so the exception doesn’t apply.

If you are cruising without a passport and have to fly back to the US because of an emergency, you have to get an emergency limited validity passport from the US embassy or consulate, and this can take several days.
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by galawdawg »

ResearchMed wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:16 pm
galawdawg wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:01 pm 8 USC 1185 provides in relevant part that "it shall be unlawful for any citizen of the United States to depart from or enter, or attempt to depart from or enter, the United States unless he bears a valid United States passport."

I'd recommend that your family member apply for a new US passport ASAP if they want to have any hope of traveling internationally in August. Their dual nationality really has no relevance. They may want to purchase fully refundable airline tickets in the event the passport does not arrive in time, unless they are willing to simply change their flights to a later date. Many airlines now permit that flexibility at no cost even on the lowest cost tickets that ordinarily don't permit changes.
Is this law new?

RM
No. As mentioned in my post, that is the relevant part. Another part allows modifications by the President which is how the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative was implemented which is only applicable to travel by land and sea.

https://www.cbp.gov/travel/us-citizens/ ... initiative
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by Nate79 »

How about he grow up and learn to follow the law and the rules? The direction to renew the passport and wait for travel is extremely clear and trying slip by is reckless at best.
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by TravelGeek »

cherijoh wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:46 pm As others pointed out getting out of the counry isn't the issue, it is getting back in!
When checking in for the flight leaving the country, the airline website or agent will require a passport (to verify eligibility for entry into the destination country). The US passport will be expired and thus not accepted, so the traveler will have to use the SA passport. Will the airline transmit that information to US authorities? If so, will the US authorities try to match that passport to immigration records to verify that the "foreign national" didn't overstay their visa, and then find that the passport was actually not used to enter the country? Will the traveler then find US Border Patrol agents waiting at the boarding gate?
Last edited by TravelGeek on Sun May 17, 2020 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
stan1
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by stan1 »

BolderBoy wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 10:41 am
Cubicle wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 10:27 amAs per the USA State Department website, because he was under 18 when the last USA passport was issued, he cannot renew by mail. However, he can submit the paperwork, fees, & photos to a Passport Acceptance Facility. There are several near him.
Do this right away (like tomorrow). Cross fingers and hope the new passport comes in time?
Do this, and if the new US passport isn't available the trip gets cancelled.

Or fly out of Mexico and he should be able to get back into US with an enhanced drivers license. He could fly to San Diego, walk across the border to the Tijuana airport (the bridge is a commercial operation: https://www.crossborderxpress.com/en/), then fly on to South America on his non-US passport. Don't take my word for this of course, do a lot of independent research and whatever is true today could be wrong tomorrow.

No, it looks like CBX requires a US passport or passport card and will not allow an enhanced drivers license.
Last edited by stan1 on Sun May 17, 2020 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Watty
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by Watty »

I don't know that it would be a factor in this case but one thing to keep in mind is that some countries require you to have six months left on your passport beyond your expected return date.

I have heard of people being denied entry to a country because of this.

Last year I renewed my last passport when is still had about a year left on it because of this.
TravelGeek
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by TravelGeek »

The Flyertalk forum https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practic ... ssues-686/ is likely going to be a good place to research this topic. A recent thread, for example, appears to be about a similar scenario:

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practic ... sport.html
snowman
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by snowman »

cherijoh wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:46 pm
As others pointed out getting out of the counry isn't the issue, it is getting back in!
Incorrect. As I have pointed out already, getting out of the country IS the issue as well. If you are a US citizen, you have leave the country with a valid US passport. This person's passport expires in July, and he plans to travel in August, which means legally he cannot travel out of the country. I also pointed out that traveling on a foreign passport is not a legal substitute. Airlines have protocols they have to follow, they will ask for documents this person will not be able to produce. He may or may not be allowed to board the plane.
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by halfnine »

Unless you are looking for trouble you leave the US with your US passport and you arrive in the US with your US passport. As to the expired passport, it is unlikely that you would get it past the airlines to board the flight. Are there other possibilities of getting in/out of the USA and/or getting the passport renewed abroad, possibly, but you are now talking about way up on the desperation and consequences scale here.
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Cubicle
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by Cubicle »

Thank you to everyone who posted helpful responses. I honestly did not consider the airline would be the gatekeeper. I postulated upon arrival back into the USA, the worst that would happen would be detained in NYC for lack of valid passport, but ultimately be sent "home" in Jersey (with a summons to appear in court???).

Nothing about this trip is an "emergency" or "life & death". But getting a limited validity passport may be worth looking into.

The consensus among us has been to find any (open) acceptance facility tomorrow (Monday) morning.

Thank you again for helping. Other constructive ideas are welcome! But I do find this discussion interesting otherwise.
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by seawolf21 »

snowman wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 2:13 pm
cherijoh wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:46 pm
As others pointed out getting out of the counry isn't the issue, it is getting back in!
Incorrect. As I have pointed out already, getting out of the country IS the issue as well. If you are a US citizen, you have leave the country with a valid US passport. This person's passport expires in July, and he plans to travel in August, which means legally he cannot travel out of the country. I also pointed out that traveling on a foreign passport is not a legal substitute. Airlines have protocols they have to follow, they will ask for documents this person will not be able to produce. He may or may not be allowed to board the plane.
Information in this post is incorrect for practical purposes. Passenger can leave US on the foreign passport. Airline only cares passenger have documentation for destination country.
Cubicle wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 11:16 pm Thank you to everyone who posted helpful responses. I honestly did not consider the airline would be the gatekeeper. I postulated upon arrival back into the USA, the worst that would happen would be detained in NYC for lack of valid passport, but ultimately be sent "home" in Jersey (with a summons to appear in court???).

Nothing about this trip is an "emergency" or "life & death". But getting a limited validity passport may be worth looking into.

The consensus among us has been to find any (open) acceptance facility tomorrow (Monday) morning.

Thank you again for helping. Other constructive ideas are welcome! But I do find this discussion interesting otherwise.
. Quoted law on having to enter/depart US is not enforced. Airline will deny boarding on flight back to US unless foreign passport is VWP and has an ESTA. Upon arrival CBP may send passenger to secondary and give warnings not to do again but ultimately will allow entry.
ivk5
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by ivk5 »

seawolf21 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:03 am
snowman wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 2:13 pm
cherijoh wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:46 pm
As others pointed out getting out of the counry isn't the issue, it is getting back in!
Incorrect. As I have pointed out already, getting out of the country IS the issue as well. If you are a US citizen, you have leave the country with a valid US passport. This person's passport expires in July, and he plans to travel in August, which means legally he cannot travel out of the country. I also pointed out that traveling on a foreign passport is not a legal substitute. Airlines have protocols they have to follow, they will ask for documents this person will not be able to produce. He may or may not be allowed to board the plane.
Information in this post is incorrect for practical purposes. Passenger can leave US on the foreign passport. Airline only cares passenger have documentation for destination country.
No, snowman is correct here. I am a dual national (US/other). If the US is anywhere in your itinerary, even origin, check-in for any segment will require valid immigration info for the US as noted by the earlier poster.

A workaround is to travel on a one-way outbound with valid but soon-expiring US passport, enter SA country on that passport, then renew at overseas US consulate/embassy. One takes the risk, of course, that that may not be possible or may involve long and unpredictable delay.
rob65
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by rob65 »

Cubicle wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 11:16 pm Thank you to everyone who posted helpful responses. I honestly did not consider the airline would be the gatekeeper. I postulated upon arrival back into the USA, the worst that would happen would be detained in NYC for lack of valid passport, but ultimately be sent "home" in Jersey (with a summons to appear in court???).

Nothing about this trip is an "emergency" or "life & death". But getting a limited validity passport may be worth looking into.

The consensus among us has been to find any (open) acceptance facility tomorrow (Monday) morning.

Thank you again for helping. Other constructive ideas are welcome! But I do find this discussion interesting otherwise.
I had mentioned limited validity passports in response to a side question about closed loop cruises. I think the limited validity passports are only an option for emergency returns for a US citizen who was legally cruising without a passport or possibly someone who had a valid passport lost/stolen while out of the country. I don’t suppose it hurts to ask, but I don’t think that’s an option in this case.

(Even cruise passengers really should have a passport. In an emergency, you don’t want to have to wait several days for the embassy/consulate to process the request and there are no guarantees.)

I really think the only option is to find an open facility, apply, and only travel if the passport gets back in time.

Politics is strictly off limits here and I apologize if this crosses a line, but this is just not the time to take any chances on being allowed to re-enter the country.
seawolf21
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by seawolf21 »

ivk5 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 5:37 am
seawolf21 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:03 am
snowman wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 2:13 pm
cherijoh wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:46 pm
As others pointed out getting out of the counry isn't the issue, it is getting back in!
Incorrect. As I have pointed out already, getting out of the country IS the issue as well. If you are a US citizen, you have leave the country with a valid US passport. This person's passport expires in July, and he plans to travel in August, which means legally he cannot travel out of the country. I also pointed out that traveling on a foreign passport is not a legal substitute. Airlines have protocols they have to follow, they will ask for documents this person will not be able to produce. He may or may not be allowed to board the plane.
Information in this post is incorrect for practical purposes. Passenger can leave US on the foreign passport. Airline only cares passenger have documentation for destination country.
No, snowman is correct here. I am a dual national (US/other). If the US is anywhere in your itinerary, even origin, check-in for any segment will require valid immigration info for the US as noted by the earlier poster.

A workaround is to travel on a one-way outbound with valid but soon-expiring US passport, enter SA country on that passport, then renew at overseas US consulate/embassy. One takes the risk, of course, that that may not be possible or may involve long and unpredictable delay.
I'm also dual national and you can fly out of US with a foreign passport.

CBP is not bothering to send someone to meet you at the departure gate unless APIS departure record matches passenger to an active arrest warrant.
rob65 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 8:52 am
Cubicle wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 11:16 pm Thank you to everyone who posted helpful responses. I honestly did not consider the airline would be the gatekeeper. I postulated upon arrival back into the USA, the worst that would happen would be detained in NYC for lack of valid passport, but ultimately be sent "home" in Jersey (with a summons to appear in court???).

Nothing about this trip is an "emergency" or "life & death". But getting a limited validity passport may be worth looking into.

The consensus among us has been to find any (open) acceptance facility tomorrow (Monday) morning.

Thank you again for helping. Other constructive ideas are welcome! But I do find this discussion interesting otherwise.
I had mentioned limited validity passports in response to a side question about closed loop cruises. I think the limited validity passports are only an option for emergency returns for a US citizen who was legally cruising without a passport or possibly someone who had a valid passport lost/stolen while out of the country. I don’t suppose it hurts to ask, but I don’t think that’s an option in this case.

(Even cruise passengers really should have a passport. In an emergency, you don’t want to have to wait several days for the embassy/consulate to process the request and there are no guarantees.)

I really think the only option is to find an open facility, apply, and only travel if the passport gets back in time.

Politics is strictly off limits here and I apologize if this crosses a line, but this is just not the time to take any chances on being allowed to re-enter the country.
Limited validity passport can be obtained at US embassy/consulates without reason to return to US. Many ex-pats don't touch US soil for years and decades and if they need to travel to another country on short notice and find their passport has expired, they just obtain a limited validity within a couple of days overseas. Limited validity passport are printed overseas, valid for up to a year, and has only a limited number of pages (maybe around 12).

There is zero chance of a US citizen being declared inadmissible to US with an expired US passport. Passenger will be sent to CBP secondary for additional verification.
Super Hans
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by Super Hans »

ivk5 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 5:37 am
seawolf21 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:03 am
snowman wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 2:13 pm
cherijoh wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:46 pm
As others pointed out getting out of the counry isn't the issue, it is getting back in!
Incorrect. As I have pointed out already, getting out of the country IS the issue as well. If you are a US citizen, you have leave the country with a valid US passport. This person's passport expires in July, and he plans to travel in August, which means legally he cannot travel out of the country. I also pointed out that traveling on a foreign passport is not a legal substitute. Airlines have protocols they have to follow, they will ask for documents this person will not be able to produce. He may or may not be allowed to board the plane.
Information in this post is incorrect for practical purposes. Passenger can leave US on the foreign passport. Airline only cares passenger have documentation for destination country.
No, snowman is correct here. I am a dual national (US/other). If the US is anywhere in your itinerary, even origin, check-in for any segment will require valid immigration info for the US as noted by the earlier poster.

A workaround is to travel on a one-way outbound with valid but soon-expiring US passport, enter SA country on that passport, then renew at overseas US consulate/embassy. One takes the risk, of course, that that may not be possible or may involve long and unpredictable delay.
My experience is consistent with Sea Wolf's: I've had no issue leaving the the US with a foreign passport, including on the outbound leg of a round-trip ticket. In ordinary times, I wouldn't hesitate simply to depend on getting a renewal at a consulate, but these aren't normal times. To beat the airline enforcement, I think the best you could do is fly into TIJ as others have suggested, assuming you have visa-free access to Mexico. If you're chileno, Canada is an option, too.

Before ESTA, my wife checked in for a US-bound flight with a VWP country passport. Immigration at JFK was mildly annoyed, but they just backed out the APIS details and put in the US info. No criminal sanctions, but then she presented a valid US passport to the government.
TravelGeek
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by TravelGeek »

Super Hans wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:45 pm Before ESTA, my wife checked in for a US-bound flight with a VWP country passport. Immigration at JFK was mildly annoyed, but they just backed out the APIS details and put in the US info. No criminal sanctions, but then she presented a valid US passport to the government.
With the introduction of ETIAS as the EU’s version of ESTA it will soon be messy/confusing both ways. Want to depart the US with your US passport (as apparently technically required)? The airline website will ask you for ETIAS info even if you have a second EU passport. And the reverse in the other direction. Perhaps airlines will upgrade their systems to accept multiple passports.
palanzo
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by palanzo »

Thegame14 wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:03 pm sorry that is 100% NOT happening....he needs to wait and get a new passport, we arent going to see international travel in 2020....
Did the USG ban international travel? I was not aware.
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rterickson
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by rterickson »

When you fill out the application to renew the passport, spend a few more bucks and get both the book and card versions. The passport card is a handy type of Real ID.
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by anon_investor »

seawolf21 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 11:54 am
ivk5 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 5:37 am
seawolf21 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:03 am
snowman wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 2:13 pm
cherijoh wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:46 pm
As others pointed out getting out of the counry isn't the issue, it is getting back in!
Incorrect. As I have pointed out already, getting out of the country IS the issue as well. If you are a US citizen, you have leave the country with a valid US passport. This person's passport expires in July, and he plans to travel in August, which means legally he cannot travel out of the country. I also pointed out that traveling on a foreign passport is not a legal substitute. Airlines have protocols they have to follow, they will ask for documents this person will not be able to produce. He may or may not be allowed to board the plane.
Information in this post is incorrect for practical purposes. Passenger can leave US on the foreign passport. Airline only cares passenger have documentation for destination country.
No, snowman is correct here. I am a dual national (US/other). If the US is anywhere in your itinerary, even origin, check-in for any segment will require valid immigration info for the US as noted by the earlier poster.

A workaround is to travel on a one-way outbound with valid but soon-expiring US passport, enter SA country on that passport, then renew at overseas US consulate/embassy. One takes the risk, of course, that that may not be possible or may involve long and unpredictable delay.
I'm also dual national and you can fly out of US with a foreign passport.

CBP is not bothering to send someone to meet you at the departure gate unless APIS departure record matches passenger to an active arrest warrant.
rob65 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 8:52 am
Cubicle wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 11:16 pm Thank you to everyone who posted helpful responses. I honestly did not consider the airline would be the gatekeeper. I postulated upon arrival back into the USA, the worst that would happen would be detained in NYC for lack of valid passport, but ultimately be sent "home" in Jersey (with a summons to appear in court???).

Nothing about this trip is an "emergency" or "life & death". But getting a limited validity passport may be worth looking into.

The consensus among us has been to find any (open) acceptance facility tomorrow (Monday) morning.

Thank you again for helping. Other constructive ideas are welcome! But I do find this discussion interesting otherwise.
I had mentioned limited validity passports in response to a side question about closed loop cruises. I think the limited validity passports are only an option for emergency returns for a US citizen who was legally cruising without a passport or possibly someone who had a valid passport lost/stolen while out of the country. I don’t suppose it hurts to ask, but I don’t think that’s an option in this case.

(Even cruise passengers really should have a passport. In an emergency, you don’t want to have to wait several days for the embassy/consulate to process the request and there are no guarantees.)

I really think the only option is to find an open facility, apply, and only travel if the passport gets back in time.

Politics is strictly off limits here and I apologize if this crosses a line, but this is just not the time to take any chances on being allowed to re-enter the country.
Limited validity passport can be obtained at US embassy/consulates without reason to return to US. Many ex-pats don't touch US soil for years and decades and if they need to travel to another country on short notice and find their passport has expired, they just obtain a limited validity within a couple of days overseas. Limited validity passport are printed overseas, valid for up to a year, and has only a limited number of pages (maybe around 12).

There is zero chance of a US citizen being declared inadmissible to US with an expired US passport. Passenger will be sent to CBP secondary for additional verification.
From a practical perspective, some US Embassies/Consulates abroad may be closed or have reduced staff due to COVID19, so obtaining a limited validity passport may be harder than normal, or at least take a lot longer, just something for the OP to consider if considering that route.
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galawdawg
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by galawdawg »

Since the law (enforced or not) requires OP's family member to have a valid US passport to travel internationally by air and since OP says the family member does not NEED to travel but simply wants to travel to South America, then the simplest solution (which also encourages OP's young family member to plan in advance and to respect the laws of the US) is for OP's family member to apply for a renewal passport and wait until it arrives to commence his international air travel.

And since most (if not all) major US airlines currently allow a no-penalty change even on the least expensive tickets, OP's family member can book a flight in the hope the passport arrives on time but prepared to reschedule his trip in the event it doesn't.
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Cubicle
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by Cubicle »

The continued replies are extremely helpful (& admittedly fascinating to me for some reason). Family member was pursuing an open in person acceptance facility this morning. I know they had their identity documents with them. I did not get a status update from them. But all in all they are making an attempt to get a fresh passport in time for August travel.

I too am a born USA citizen & naturalized Canadian citizen with passports from both expiring >5 years from now. And said family member insinuated I was being foolish for maintaining both even though I don't really travel. Ha!
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ResearchMed
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by ResearchMed »

Cubicle wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 10:58 pm The continued replies are extremely helpful (& admittedly fascinating to me for some reason). Family member was pursuing an open in person acceptance facility this morning. I know they had their identity documents with them. I did not get a status update from them. But all in all they are making an attempt to get a fresh passport in time for August travel.

I too am a born USA citizen & naturalized Canadian citizen with passports from both expiring >5 years from now. And said family member insinuated I was being foolish for maintaining both even though I don't really travel. Ha!
Renew them out of sequence soon, or you could have the same problem with *both* of them in ~5 years :(

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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by EddyB »

galawdawg wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 5:15 pm Since the law (enforced or not) requires OP's family member to have a valid US passport to travel internationally by air and since OP says the family member does not NEED to travel but simply wants to travel to South America, then the simplest solution (which also encourages OP's young family member to plan in advance and to respect the laws of the US) is for OP's family member to apply for a renewal passport and wait until it arrives to commence his international air travel.

And since most (if not all) major US airlines currently allow a no-penalty change even on the least expensive tickets, OP's family member can book a flight in the hope the passport arrives on time but prepared to reschedule his trip in the event it doesn't.
I’d make the lesson deeper, dig out those Cold War-era freedom-to-travel-cases and have the kid sue to make State issue a passport here.
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Cubicle
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by Cubicle »

ResearchMed wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 11:06 pmRenew them out of sequence soon, or you could have the same problem with *both* of them in ~5 years :(
I don't remember the exact expiration years, but they are, almost to the day, 2 years apart the last I mentally jotted it down. It's just remembering after 9.5 years to actually remember to renew!
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by celia »

The way I see it is there no need for countries to issue new passports while international travel is shut down. Once covid settles down, then international travel can resume, then passport processing will re-start.

Why would they issue passports now, good for 10 years, if you are prohibited for, perhaps, using it the first year?
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by EddyB »

celia wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 12:17 am The way I see it is there no need for countries to issue new passports while international travel is shut down. Once covid settles down, then international travel can resume, then passport processing will re-start.

Why would they issue passports now, good for 10 years, if you are prohibited for, perhaps, using it the first year?
International travel is not shut down. Does that change your conclusion?
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by seawolf21 »

EddyB wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 9:32 am
celia wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 12:17 am The way I see it is there no need for countries to issue new passports while international travel is shut down. Once covid settles down, then international travel can resume, then passport processing will re-start.

Why would they issue passports now, good for 10 years, if you are prohibited for, perhaps, using it the first year?
International travel is not shut down. Does that change your conclusion?
Agreed. International travel is not shut down. Borders are open for those meeting exemption criteria.

For example, US is only closed to foreign nationals who have been in China/Iran/Schengen/UK/non-essential from Canada/Mexico. Rest of world can fly to US. If you are an US citizen expat working in Germany, you can travel to/from US and Schengen on basis on US citizen and long term German resident.

Schengen border is open to essential which includes healthcare professionals, seasonal workers etc. All these individuals would potentially have passport needing renewal.
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by snowman »

Cubicle wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 10:58 pm The continued replies are extremely helpful (& admittedly fascinating to me for some reason). Family member was pursuing an open in person acceptance facility this morning. I know they had their identity documents with them. I did not get a status update from them. But all in all they are making an attempt to get a fresh passport in time for August travel.

I too am a born USA citizen & naturalized Canadian citizen with passports from both expiring >5 years from now. And said family member insinuated I was being foolish for maintaining both even though I don't really travel. Ha!
Can you provide an update when you get it? I am wondering how it went at the office, which in your OP you said is currently open to only life and death situations. If I remember correctly, one needs to make an appointment - was he able to secure one? Or is that no longer necessary?
halfnine
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by halfnine »

Cubicle wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 10:58 pm
I too am a born USA citizen & naturalized Canadian citizen with passports from both expiring >5 years from now. And said family member insinuated I was being foolish for maintaining both even though I don't really travel. Ha!
We have citizenships across multiple countries. Considering the kids passports don't last all that long passport renewal seems to be a yearly event for us.
mptfan
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by mptfan »

snowman wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:42 pm I don't know the answer to that, mostly because I never tried. The rules are very clear though. Just thinking through the process, I don't know how you would leave the country to begin with. The agent will ask for US passport, and you will say I don't have it, but here is an alternative "SA" passport. That's a no-go if you are a US citizen, not sure what the protocol is when that happens.
...
So the question becomes what happens to this individual who broke the law leaving the country on a foreign passport when trying to re-enter and claiming they are US citizen without valid US passport. I don't know, but I would not want to find out personally. I would not risk it at all! Clearly, the obvious choice here is no travel due to Covid-19, but that option was ruled out by OP. So the only realistic choice here is to apply immediately, then hope it gets here on time, then hope you can actually travel...
I'm glad you started out by acknowledging that you do not know the answer and you have never tried, because I have done it and most of what you wrote is simply wrong.

First, when you check in to leave the U.S. it's not true that "the agent will ask for a US passport." In my experience, the agent will ask for a passport, but it does not have to be a U.S. passport. There are many situations where people leave the U.S. without presenting a U.S. passport to the airline agent...tourists returning home, U.S. residents who are foreign citizens...and U.S. citizens who are dual citizens travelling to their second country of citizenship and present their passport from their second country of citizenship. I am a dual citizen and I have done this many times, I have presented my passport from my second country of citizenship to the ticket agent upon leaving the U.S. and travelling to my second country of citizenship while keeping my U.S. passport in my pocket and there was no issue. If you have a passport that shows you are a citizen of the country to which you are travelling, there is no issue. I don't know why you think that is a "no-go if you are a U.S. citizen." It is not. I don't even know how the ticket agent would know that I am a U.S. citizen in that situation.

You also suggested someone breaks the law by leaving the U.S. on a foreign passport and re-enters the U.S. claiming to be a U.S. citizen. In another post you also wrote "If you are a US citizen, you have to leave the country with a valid US passport." I don't know the source of any of the information you are presenting but I have left the U.S. without presenting a U.S. passport and I have presented my U.S. passport upon my return with no issue, and I am unaware of any law that prohibits it. Even if there is such a law (and I doubt there is) it is not enforced.
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by madbrain »

I was in a similar situation a few years ago.

My US passport was at the Vietnamese embassy for visa processing. My grandmother died in France during that time. Due to religious customs, the burial would have to take place within 36 hours of when I learned of it. I took my French passport and boarded a plane the same day.

A few days later, my husband got my US passport back in the mail from the Vietnamese embassy. I thought of having him Fedex it to me in France, but figured it wasn't worth the risk of delay or loss.

Upon my return from France a week later, I had a hell of a time boarding the plane back to the US. The airline didn't want to let me board. Since they considered me to be a French citizen, and I didn't have a "return" ticket to France, they wanted me to buy a one-way return ticket, and then cancel it within the 24 hour cancellation policy. I refused. Instead, I asked me husband to text me a photo of my passport page. The airline talked to US CBP and finally allowed me to board the plane. It probably helped that my French passport stated the US city and state where I was born (my US passport only lists the state, but not the city).

This was not the end of it. My return flight had a connection in the US. I only had a short time to connect. Immigration wouldn't accept the screenshot of my US passport. Instead, they let me in on my French passport, and fingerprinted me (first time ever in my life).

I made it back home, but I had gotten very sick on the airplane back from France, and had to cancel my trip to Vietnam which was to take place just 3 days later.

A few years later, I applied for Global Entry. During the interview, CBP agents gave me a hard time for having entered the US on a French passport. I still got my Global Entry. I had no idea up to that point that I had broken the law by entering the US on my French passport.

In your situation, since your US passport is currently expired, a screenshot of it might not work. I think I would delay taking the trip. You might be able to board the plane on your ZA passport if you buy a one-way "return" ticket to South Africa less than 24 hours from returning home, and then cancelling it for a refund. Upon your return to the US, you might have issues with immigration.
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Re: Dual citizen, USA passport expiring, how to travel internationally

Post by fogalog »

Cubicle wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 10:58 pm The continued replies are extremely helpful (& admittedly fascinating to me for some reason). Family member was pursuing an open in person acceptance facility this morning. I know they had their identity documents with them. I did not get a status update from them. But all in all they are making an attempt to get a fresh passport in time for August travel.

I too am a born USA citizen & naturalized Canadian citizen with passports from both expiring >5 years from now. And said family member insinuated I was being foolish for maintaining both even though I don't really travel. Ha!
I would love to hear an update on this if you don't mind. I cannot find an open in-person acceptance facility (for renewing a passport for a minor). As far as I can tell they are all closed.

Thanks!
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