Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

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Walkure
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by Walkure »

I've had a 256GB SSD in my desktop for the OS about 6 years now. The original HDD is still in there for backup, large video and game files. The setup works well so far, but they are getting up there in age. About two months ago I started planning a major tech upgrade centered around a dedicated NAS with Plex server to backup the backup and make it so my desktop doesn't have to do double duty as a media center. Then coronavirus took over and I got bogged down in setting up a home office situation.
I was just circling back around to my original plan when the tech world blew up in rage over WD Red drives using Shingled Magnetic Recording, which apparently causes them to drop out of RAID arrays and basically makes them completely unusable for the exact purpose they were marketed toward. So now I'm stuck with deciding whether to go ahead with my original strategy with a healthy dose of caveat emptor, or if I should go full SSD for the NAS as well. :annoyed
Last edited by Walkure on Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
emoore
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by emoore »

I'll echo what everyone else has said, SSD for sure. No computer should come with a HDD for the operating system and programs. Maybe for bulk storage in a desktop but the startup disk should be and SSD.
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Electron
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by Electron »

TN_Boy and 02nz - thanks for the comments.

The SSD and HDD on the older system are identical with the HDD imaged from the SSD just for experimentation and backup. I can boot one disk or the other by changing the boot order in the BIOS. I did open the Excel file (26 MB) different ways on each disk and also after a fresh boot. Results were always consistent and I feel that I did establish that the SSD does not help in this particular case. It actually makes sense when you consider the short time required to read a 26 MB file on either disk.

I am sold on the SSD as it boots many times faster than the HDD.

The better performance with the same spreadsheet on the newer computer despite having an HDD was just presented for information. I think the results do make sense with the faster processor along with larger and faster memory. The processor also has 6 CPU cores versus 4 on the older system.
Electron
wfrobinette
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by wfrobinette »

tibbitts wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:44 pm I'm not seeing the advantages to the extent everyone else is, after replacing HDDs in all my laptops (old, new) with SSDs, but SSDs are better. I'm needing a couple cheap external 4TB drives now and not seeing that in SSD just yet - anybody want to estimate how long I'll have to wait? I'm at 70% with my 2TB drives. I know, I could clean out my files - but that would probably take more time than waiting for cheap 4TB SSDs.
Have you heard of the cloud?
wfrobinette
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by wfrobinette »

emoore wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:48 pm I'll echo what everyone else has said, SSD for sure. No computer should come with a HDD for the operating system and programs. Maybe for bulk storage in a desktop but the startup disk should be and SSD.
Why would you just not use the cloud for bulk storage? It's cheap, Reliable and secure. and can be accessed by you anywhere there is internet.
emoore
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by emoore »

wfrobinette wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:14 pm
emoore wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:48 pm I'll echo what everyone else has said, SSD for sure. No computer should come with a HDD for the operating system and programs. Maybe for bulk storage in a desktop but the startup disk should be and SSD.
Why would you just not use the cloud for bulk storage? It's cheap, Reliable and secure. and can be accessed by you anywhere there is internet.
I have a couple of issues with storage of all my data on the cloud. First I don't want it all up there. There is enough personal info online that I don't want to add more. Second I really really hate recurring monthly fees so I try to keep them to a minimum. I have a small home NAS at home that I use for storage. Monthly I copy that onto a portable hard drive and store it somewhere outside my house.
tibbitts
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by tibbitts »

wfrobinette wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:08 pm
tibbitts wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:44 pm I'm not seeing the advantages to the extent everyone else is, after replacing HDDs in all my laptops (old, new) with SSDs, but SSDs are better. I'm needing a couple cheap external 4TB drives now and not seeing that in SSD just yet - anybody want to estimate how long I'll have to wait? I'm at 70% with my 2TB drives. I know, I could clean out my files - but that would probably take more time than waiting for cheap 4TB SSDs.
Have you heard of the cloud?
I worked for an internet and cloud storage provider.
macheta
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by macheta »

Last year I purchased a SSD for my 2013 dell. I put a clean install of windows 10 on my computer at the same time. Fast forward to a few weeks ago, the main mother board was malfunctioning. My neighbor left his old computer on the driveway to be picked up by the garbage man. This computer left by the garbage can was an HP computer. After installing the Dell SSD into the HP, installed some extra memory, it started up right away. I wasn't expecting the SSD to transition so smoothly. This computer works great!
azanon
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by azanon »

02nz wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:24 pm
azanon wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:21 pm The better question is SSD vs. NVMe drives. SSD's are extremely cost effective now and so far beyond HDDs now, that I'm surprised that they're still selling in volume except maybe for those who need very high capacities (3-4TB or more)

NVMe drives are the latest thing and even faster, but are not quite cost effective yet. But if i were building a brand new system today, my main drive with the OS would probably get an NVMe drive.
You mean SATA vs NVMe drives. (NVMe drives are still a type of SSD.)
Thanks - not quite though - I meant SATA SSDs vs. M.2 NVMe SSDs. Regular ole Hard Disk Drives use a SATA interface, so just saying SATA doesn't even distinguish between SSDs and HDDs.
bugleheadd
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by bugleheadd »

My 8 yr old laptop boots up in10 seconds. Everything feels much faster, win10 install takes like 10 minutes tops
lazydavid
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by lazydavid »

TN_Boy wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:15 pm Generally I don't think of spreadsheets manipulation as being I/O intensive. The excel app is likely far bigger than any spreadsheet you are using. Actually, I don't think of excel as being all that CPU intensive either.
Depends on the use case. We have a large number of users that we had to switch to the x64 version of Excel years ago (when Microsoft still strongly encouraged the use of the 32-bit versions instead) due to performance issues. And for a few that work with particularly large/complex spreadsheets, we more recently had to replace their laptops with mobile workstations that have Xeon processors and 32GB of RAM in order to provide acceptable performance (our standard laptop has an i7 and 16GB).

Now those are admittedly edge cases. But Excel will work your system as hard as you want it to.
Independent George
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by Independent George »

azanon wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:16 pm
02nz wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:24 pm
azanon wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:21 pm The better question is SSD vs. NVMe drives. SSD's are extremely cost effective now and so far beyond HDDs now, that I'm surprised that they're still selling in volume except maybe for those who need very high capacities (3-4TB or more)

NVMe drives are the latest thing and even faster, but are not quite cost effective yet. But if i were building a brand new system today, my main drive with the OS would probably get an NVMe drive.
You mean SATA vs NVMe drives. (NVMe drives are still a type of SSD.)
Thanks - not quite though - I meant SATA SSDs vs. M.2 NVMe SSDs. Regular ole Hard Disk Drives use a SATA interface, so just saying SATA doesn't even distinguish between SSDs and HDDs.
NVMe retail prices are high, but you occasionally find sales like this one.

$149 for 1 TB is cheaper than MSRP on a Samsung 860 EVO - and much faster, too. The QLC version is just $129 if you don't care about write speeds (which are still way faster than on a 2.5" SSD).

I'm not sold on the PCIE 4.0 drives, as the fact that they require heatsinks makes me wonder about their long-term durability. I'm considering building a new desktop with a 256 GB NVMe drive that will be used purely as a Windows boot drive.
TN_Boy
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by TN_Boy »

lazydavid wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:20 pm
TN_Boy wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:15 pm Generally I don't think of spreadsheets manipulation as being I/O intensive. The excel app is likely far bigger than any spreadsheet you are using. Actually, I don't think of excel as being all that CPU intensive either.
Depends on the use case. We have a large number of users that we had to switch to the x64 version of Excel years ago (when Microsoft still strongly encouraged the use of the 32-bit versions instead) due to performance issues. And for a few that work with particularly large/complex spreadsheets, we more recently had to replace their laptops with mobile workstations that have Xeon processors and 32GB of RAM in order to provide acceptable performance (our standard laptop has an i7 and 16GB).

Now those are admittedly edge cases. But Excel will work your system as hard as you want it to.
Good point, I'm not enough of a power excel user to run into those types of problems.
TN_Boy
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by TN_Boy »

wfrobinette wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:14 pm
emoore wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:48 pm I'll echo what everyone else has said, SSD for sure. No computer should come with a HDD for the operating system and programs. Maybe for bulk storage in a desktop but the startup disk should be and SSD.
Why would you just not use the cloud for bulk storage? It's cheap, Reliable and secure. and can be accessed by you anywhere there is internet.
I prefer local HDD for "performance not critical" stuff, backed up to the cloud. I want a local copy.

Some data cannot use cloud for primary storage. What takes up most of my disk space is photos, generally RAW images. I can't edit them from Lightroom [added for clarity] if they are in the cloud. They have to be local.
wfrobinette
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by wfrobinette »

emoore wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:21 pm
wfrobinette wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:14 pm
emoore wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:48 pm I'll echo what everyone else has said, SSD for sure. No computer should come with a HDD for the operating system and programs. Maybe for bulk storage in a desktop but the startup disk should be and SSD.
Why would you just not use the cloud for bulk storage? It's cheap, Reliable and secure. and can be accessed by you anywhere there is internet.
I have a couple of issues with storage of all my data on the cloud. First I don't want it all up there. There is enough personal info online that I don't want to add more. Second I really really hate recurring monthly fees so I try to keep them to a minimum. I have a small home NAS at home that I use for storage. Monthly I copy that onto a portable hard drive and store it somewhere outside my house.
I subscribe to office 365 so I get free 1TB. As for the personal data already there. File storage is much different and so is backup. My backup provider allows me to encrypt during backup. One drive has a personal vault that encrypts sensitive files as well.

When the DOD decided to move to the cloud(Azure for now) I feel confident it has matured to a very high level of security. Better than I can do on my own that's for sure.
TN_Boy
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by TN_Boy »

wfrobinette wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:02 am
emoore wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:21 pm
wfrobinette wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:14 pm
emoore wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:48 pm I'll echo what everyone else has said, SSD for sure. No computer should come with a HDD for the operating system and programs. Maybe for bulk storage in a desktop but the startup disk should be and SSD.
Why would you just not use the cloud for bulk storage? It's cheap, Reliable and secure. and can be accessed by you anywhere there is internet.
I have a couple of issues with storage of all my data on the cloud. First I don't want it all up there. There is enough personal info online that I don't want to add more. Second I really really hate recurring monthly fees so I try to keep them to a minimum. I have a small home NAS at home that I use for storage. Monthly I copy that onto a portable hard drive and store it somewhere outside my house.
I subscribe to office 365 so I get free 1TB. As for the personal data already there. File storage is much different and so is backup. My backup provider allows me to encrypt during backup. One drive has a personal vault that encrypts sensitive files as well.

When the DOD decided to move to the cloud(Azure for now) I feel confident it has matured to a very high level of security. Better than I can do on my own that's for sure.
One thing about having data only in the cloud is that if the cloud provider or internet has an issue, I can't get to the data from anywhere. I want backups to the cloud (constant real-time backups), but also local copies. TB drives are cheap.

The amount of data I really want/need to be able to access from anywhere at anytime is small, maybe a few GBs. Some documents, etc.
BuddyJet
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by BuddyJet »

wfrobinette wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:14 pm
emoore wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:48 pm I'll echo what everyone else has said, SSD for sure. No computer should come with a HDD for the operating system and programs. Maybe for bulk storage in a desktop but the startup disk should be and SSD.
Why would you just not use the cloud for bulk storage? It's cheap, Reliable and secure. and can be accessed by you anywhere there is internet.
When you have terabytes to store, even Amazon Glacier is about $4/mo per TB. An external hd is about $180 for 10tb as a one time.

For the really important files, I keep a duplicate disk at my daughter’s house to avoid fire and theft risk. No monetary value to the files but the pictures and videos are priceless to me.
People say nothing is impossible. I do nothing all day.
emoore
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by emoore »

I'll add that I "saved" my 5 year old iMac buy adding an external NVME boot drive. It was very slow with the internal HDD and with apple you can't replace anything. So I added a 500 GB NVME external boot drive. Speed is limited by the USB 3 connection but it's still many times faster than the internal HDD.
tibbitts
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by tibbitts »

BuddyJet wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:18 am
wfrobinette wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:14 pm
emoore wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:48 pm I'll echo what everyone else has said, SSD for sure. No computer should come with a HDD for the operating system and programs. Maybe for bulk storage in a desktop but the startup disk should be and SSD.
Why would you just not use the cloud for bulk storage? It's cheap, Reliable and secure. and can be accessed by you anywhere there is internet.
When you have terabytes to store, even Amazon Glacier is about $4/mo per TB. An external hd is about $180 for 10tb as a one time.

For the really important files, I keep a duplicate disk at my daughter’s house to avoid fire and theft risk. No monetary value to the files but the pictures and videos are priceless to me.
The cost is still an issue, but so is access speed for most people.
hudson
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by hudson »

Electron wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:31 pm A Solid State Drive certainly boots an operating system much faster than a conventional Hard Disk Drive.

What advantages have you seen after boot?

I'm wondering what kinds of applications might benefit from the additional speed.


After reading this discussion, I decided to swap out my 1TB drive with a solid state drive....just some notes.

I ordered this drive: Samsung SSD 860 EVO 1TB 2.5 Inch SATA III Internal SSD (MZ-76E1T0B/AM)

My current operating system (Win 10 PRO) has been running for 2 years and was kind of goofy, so I wanted to do a clean install.

My computer is a Dell Optiplex 7050. Dell didn't include operating system media with the computer, so I called support. They gave me a link. I downloaded what I needed to my computer and ran it. It put the install stuff on a 16GB USB Thumb drive.

I backed up all of my data files...My documents, pictures, desktop, downloads, and Google Drive to an external usb drive....in case I really screwed up and did the install over my current old fashioned drive....which stayed in the computer....I probably should have disconnected it.

I plugged up the data and power cable to the mother board. The computer already had the power cable in place. I had to scrounge the data cable. I also ordered a Dell "caddy" to secure the new drive inside the cabinet. I got it off EBay; it's not here yet, I'll add it later. I just stuck it in there; it's not going anywhere; the drive is feather light. When the drive package came in, I thought that it was empty.

I rebooted and pointed the install to the new solid state drive. I could have screwed up here and reinstalled over my old drive....but I was slow and careful here.

The install took maybe and hour; it installed many of my drivers automagically.
It is much faster and much quieter.
Advantages after boot? It boots fast almost like a Chromebook; my old boot could take 5-10 minutes or longer.
Faster Applications? I had been using very old MS Office programs, but I bought Microsoft 365 at $100 per year/5 users. It autosaves and puts the files online so I can use them from my phone or other devices. Faster....I don't know...convenient...yes.
I've got to re-figure out that crazy bitlocker stuff so that I can get into my old drive....but no emergency.
Last edited by hudson on Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
02nz
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by 02nz »

hudson wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:03 am I've got to re-figure out that crazy bitlocker stuff so that I can get into my old drive....but no emergency.
It should be saved in your Microsoft account. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/hel ... covery-key
mhalley
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by mhalley »

Both upcoming holiday consoles are switching to SSD, so perhaps this will result in some price drops for SSD in general.
lazydavid
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by lazydavid »

mhalley wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:41 am Both upcoming holiday consoles are switching to SSD, so perhaps this will result in some price drops for SSD in general.
Increased demand very rarely leads to price drops. :)
cjking
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by cjking »

TN_Boy wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:09 am One thing about having data only in the cloud is that if the cloud provider or internet has an issue, I can't get to the data from anywhere. I want backups to the cloud (constant real-time backups), but also local copies. TB drives are cheap.
Since this thread started I have turned on Onedrive files-on-demand and moved my music, the only data not already on my SSD, to the SSD. My strategy now is to have a boot SSD on which I logically keep everything, with all my data within the Onedrive folder, except that with files-on-demand activated, the full main copy of most of data is now only in the cloud. I also have a large hard drive used only for backups, on which I keep a full backup copy of the SSD Onedrive directory, copied there using robocopy.

If I suddenly want read-access to all my music and pictures without waiting for files-on-demand to retrieve them, I can just use them from the backup drive.

Playing music from SSD doesn't work well when the data isn't local to SSD, but I've discovered there are music players which will stream it directly from Onedrive cloud, so actually music doesn't need to be stored locally for playing. If I did want to play it from a local drive, I could point the player at the local backup copy, rather than the SSD.

Having gotten over my opposition to subscriptions to get office 365, prompted by a lifetime discount I can get because at the time of signing up I work for a corporation that uses Microsoft products, I find organising my computing life really simple now. In the unlikely event I ever buy a new computer, rather than replacing hardware in the one I have, I'd buy a tiny PC with a mere 128 Gig of SSD, because that's all I need to support up to a terabyte of actual data. I'd use an external USB hard drive as my backup drive.

If my computer vanished, it would take minutes to configure it's replacement so all my data was available in the same places as before. No need to do any restores. Add on maybe another half-hour to install and configure any software I need, and I'd be fully back in business.

In fact I wouldn't have to wait for the replacement computer to arrive, in the mean time I could login with my microsoft account to any of three other Windows 10 computers in the house, and be back in business as quickly as described above.

I'm probably being a bit high-maintenance in wanting to have a second drive with a full backup of my data on it. I can forsee myself letting go of that requirement. At the moment it costs me nothing, as I have the spare drive already.
hudson
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by hudson »

02nz wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:21 am
hudson wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:03 am I've got to re-figure out that crazy bitlocker stuff so that I can get into my old drive....but no emergency.
It should be saved in your Microsoft account. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/hel ... covery-key
Thanks 02nz!
You saved me from Googling it. All I need is my Microsoft password, which I've got "written" down...not underneath my keyboard.
I set all of that up 2 years ago. I'm sure that I documented everything to the hilt and then promptly lost it.
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Electron
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Re: Computers - Solid State Drive vs. Hard Disk Drive

Post by Electron »

Despite really liking my older desktop upgraded to SSD, my new Windows 10 desktop with 9th generation i5 processor and 7200 rpm hard drive easily meets all my needs.

Power-on to desktop measures 40 seconds. I don't believe any of my applications would run noticeably faster with SSD. That includes Firefox, Thunderbird email, Microsoft Office, Adobe Acrobat Reader, Macrium Reflect, and a couple Amateur Radio programs running digital modes.

Even so, the older computer with SSD is a delight to use. It is also very satisfying when you upgrade an older system. That computer had been running Windows 7 which I imaged to the new SSD using Macrium Reflect. I then did the free upgrade to Windows 10 which turned out much easier than expected. After that I replaced the ATX power supply which had a fairly loud constant RPM fan. That desktop now feels like a brand new computer.

I installed Samsung Magician to manage the 860 EVO SSD. One nice feature is the Drive Health display which should help manage end of life. Magician reports that 866 GB have been written so far. With the drive warranty at 150 TBW, I have only used 0.6% of the expected life of the drive after 4 months.
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