Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Luckywon
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Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:33 am

Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by Luckywon » Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:34 am

michaeljc70 wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:12 am
Luckywon wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:09 am
rich126 wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:58 pm
If you say reduce seating by 50%, I don't see the business surviving by increasing prices by 50%. People enjoy going out but prices do matter and if that $15, 20, 30 meal becomes $22, 30, 45 that would make eating home much more likely.
If seating is reduced by 50%, prices would have to go up 100% to be revenue neutral.
Staffing and food costs would go down. It would still kill most restaurants though with the fixed costs. There is a reason tables aren't 6 feet apart in a restaurant.
Maybe a good model going forward would be to have lower prices for take out than eat in. Shift the fixed costs of dining space to customers using it.

JackoC
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by JackoC » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:22 am

Luckywon wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:34 am
michaeljc70 wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:12 am
Luckywon wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:09 am
rich126 wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:58 pm
If you say reduce seating by 50%, I don't see the business surviving by increasing prices by 50%. People enjoy going out but prices do matter and if that $15, 20, 30 meal becomes $22, 30, 45 that would make eating home much more likely.
If seating is reduced by 50%, prices would have to go up 100% to be revenue neutral.
Staffing and food costs would go down. It would still kill most restaurants though with the fixed costs. There is a reason tables aren't 6 feet apart in a restaurant.
Maybe a good model going forward would be to have lower prices for take out than eat in. Shift the fixed costs of dining space to customers using it.
Makes sense all else equal on the basis of pre-pandemic attitudes. Say for some other reason lots of restaurant indoor dining space had been removed from the market but not their kitchens' ability to provide delivery/take out. The Econ 101 prediction would be a premium to get seated over take out.

However now it's hard to predict 'post' (or respite, or diminution in) pandemic customer attitudes. Some posts seem to assume 'back to normal' generally, but I don't see that as likely in 2020. Or maybe nearer term future developments can change minds including mine (I currently don't expect to eat *in* a restaurant again in 2020 at least). In our area there are a huge number of restaurants, dozens in walking distance. I think many will have to go out of business because total demand will not really return to 'normal' in time to save them, but probably in a agonizing process drawn out by govt support (not trying to debate policy, I just think that's obvious for some doomed businesses in some places). Meantime they will be desperate for any customer, eat in or take out, at any price that generates positive cashflow over variable expenses (ie mainly food and staff), in an ultimately vain struggle to meet rent, until enough of them go under that the remaining ones are in any position to raise prices. Or until commercial rents drop a lot, which will also probably be only after a lot of them go under. And in our area you could easily see the imperfections in the commercial rent market pre-pandemic. Places would get kicked out of their space essentially by rent increases, then the spaces remain empty for sometimes *years*. It's remarkable how stubborn some of those commercial space owners have been. 'This is an up and coming area, I paid a fortune more than the previous owner for this building, I'll get my increase eventually'. Although maybe that mindset will change also.

Whakamole
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by Whakamole » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:14 pm

AerialWombat wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:26 am
I’m already back to eating out every day. It’s not the same with social distancing, even out here in the sticks, but it’s still the only human interaction I get every day. Despite being an introvert, seeing other humans is necessary for mental health. So I will “risk” it.
This is why I am eagerly awaiting restaurants opening up. I tend to avoid the rush hours anyway since I like to pick my seat and not wait as long for service and food.

btenny
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by btenny » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:32 pm

I used to dine out and go to relatives houses (or have them to my house) several times a week. I miss the good food and eating out on patios and talking and enjoying life. I miss it a lot. I will probably try some dining places when they reopen the dine in option. It will be interesting to see how the food places handle dine in eating. Will they start temperature scanning customers? Will they put in Plexiglas booths and curtains? Will they move tables to six feet apart? How will the waiters serve you food? Will some places convert to the private club model with screened customers? Will others just convert to 100% take out? I know since the shut down we have done take out 4 times and felt safe for 3 of them. I have always done some take out. Will this be my only future option?

Where I live in Arizona there are tons of small stores and small restaurants. Almost all these spots were busy and full. Most place did take out and always have. The only difference is now they have no on site dinning. Take out here seems to be going good. There are lines picking up food at In-Out burger, Nicks, Oregano's, etc. The only places I see closed are breakfast places. I suspect the volume is way down but they are open and some people are still working.

We also did a patio cocktail hour with two relatives who set 6 feet away. They came into our back yard via my side yard gate direct from their car. We talked and enjoyed some wine with them six feet away. My wife is also doing a once week video girls chat fest to replace her Women's luncheons. They had 10-12 women yesterday. Some of my men friends are golfing and doing bike rides with other friends. But now they are following distancing rules where everyone keeps six feet apart.

So things will get better but it will take time.
Good Luck.

.

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JonnyDVM
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by JonnyDVM » Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:31 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:55 pm

You really can't see any difference between sitting down to a nice meal, having people serve you, refill your drinks, warm food straight from the kitchen, as opposed to getting food in a styrofoam box that is all smashed together and luke-warm (if you are lucky) by the time you get home?

I don't mind take-out, but there certainly is a different "mood" to dining in a nice restaurant.
Agreed. We tried twice now to get food from restaurants we would normally dine in at. Absolutely awful.

When the restrictions are lifted I will go and eat at the places I used to because I don’t intend to hide from the virus inside my house until 2022. My cavalier attitude aside, I question how just places that weren’t already centered around a big takeout business are going to survive.
I’d trade it all for a little more | -C Montgomery Burns

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BogleFanGal
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by BogleFanGal » Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:09 pm

one "good" thing that I'm hoping comes out of all this chaos is some elbow room between tables at urban restaurants. I love eating out but was getting frustrated with even the pricey restaurants pushing tables closer and closer together, so that I can't even feel comfortable having a private conversation with my dining companion and I have to hear the entire discussion of everyone around me...and pay $75-100+ for the privilege. I will go back out - but I will not be frequenting those places anymore until they change that.
"Life would be infinitely happier if we could only be born at the age of eighty and gradually approach eighteen." Mark Twain

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BogleFanGal
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by BogleFanGal » Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:15 pm

livesoft wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:38 am
Boglegirl81 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:11 am
Me too... I have missed eating out so much, especially sitting out on a patio enjoying happy hour.
My spouse sits out on the patio with her bottles of wine and has a Zoom wine-drinking session with her sisters and sister-in-laws and all their daughters. For some reason, none of the men in the families get to participate. What is amazing to me is that they set this up and usually everyone has the same wines (plural!), so they can all talk about taste or whatever.
I frequented several places regularly with indoor and outdoor open air views overlooking beautiful water vistas and really miss that - it relaxed me so much. The only view on my surburban USA patio is a crappy one of my neighbor's walls. I always regretted being too frugal and afraid of debt when I bought my house - not splurging more to have a home on a canal, lake or whatever. I regret it even more now stuck at home - there's no water or beautiful tree lined views anywhere to sit by and I miss that so much.
"Life would be infinitely happier if we could only be born at the age of eighty and gradually approach eighteen." Mark Twain

livesoft
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by livesoft » Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:55 pm

^Add a water feature or small fountain yourself. We don't have any water features in our yard but we also don't have a crappy view of any neighbor due to our site plan and trees. We don't even have a pool even though all of our neighbors have their own pools.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.

Housedoc
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by Housedoc » Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:22 pm

So long Chinese Buffet, can't imagine grabbing a serving spoon off the line now. My waist will be happy with this news.

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F150HD
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by F150HD » Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:33 pm

deleted

UpperNwGuy
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by UpperNwGuy » Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:43 pm

I doubt I will eat in restaurants for the next few years. I don't care about the lockdown being lifted. What I care about is the number of coronavirus cases and coronavirus deaths in my city. When those go to zero, or close to zero, then I will begin to consider whether eating out is worth the risk. Thankfully I am a decent cook and do not miss restaurant food. What I miss is the camaraderie of sitting at the bar, and I suspect that bars will remain closed even when restaurants reopen.

jebmke
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by jebmke » Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:56 pm

Same here. I like eating out every once in a while but we don't do it that often since we retired. My last few years of work were such heavy travel, business and otherwise and eating out that both travel and restaurants aren't that big of a draw any more.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

Balance
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by Balance » Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:59 pm

JackoC wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:22 am
Luckywon wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:34 am
michaeljc70 wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:12 am
Luckywon wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:09 am
rich126 wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:58 pm
If you say reduce seating by 50%, I don't see the business surviving by increasing prices by 50%. People enjoy going out but prices do matter and if that $15, 20, 30 meal becomes $22, 30, 45 that would make eating home much more likely.
If seating is reduced by 50%, prices would have to go up 100% to be revenue neutral.
Staffing and food costs would go down. It would still kill most restaurants though with the fixed costs. There is a reason tables aren't 6 feet apart in a restaurant.
Maybe a good model going forward would be to have lower prices for take out than eat in. Shift the fixed costs of dining space to customers using it.
Makes sense all else equal on the basis of pre-pandemic attitudes. Say for some other reason lots of restaurant indoor dining space had been removed from the market but not their kitchens' ability to provide delivery/take out. The Econ 101 prediction would be a premium to get seated over take out.

However now it's hard to predict 'post' (or respite, or diminution in) pandemic customer attitudes. Some posts seem to assume 'back to normal' generally, but I don't see that as likely in 2020. Or maybe nearer term future developments can change minds including mine (I currently don't expect to eat *in* a restaurant again in 2020 at least). In our area there are a huge number of restaurants, dozens in walking distance. I think many will have to go out of business because total demand will not really return to 'normal' in time to save them, but probably in a agonizing process drawn out by govt support (not trying to debate policy, I just think that's obvious for some doomed businesses in some places). Meantime they will be desperate for any customer, eat in or take out, at any price that generates positive cashflow over variable expenses (ie mainly food and staff), in an ultimately vain struggle to meet rent, until enough of them go under that the remaining ones are in any position to raise prices. Or until commercial rents drop a lot, which will also probably be only after a lot of them go under. And in our area you could easily see the imperfections in the commercial rent market pre-pandemic. Places would get kicked out of their space essentially by rent increases, then the spaces remain empty for sometimes *years*. It's remarkable how stubborn some of those commercial space owners have been. 'This is an up and coming area, I paid a fortune more than the previous owner for this building, I'll get my increase eventually'. Although maybe that mindset will change also.
Interesting discussion. I think that restaurants cannot charge more but instead will need to maintain their pricing. They will have less revenue for sure and their landlords will have to take that into consideration and lower their rents accordingly. If the landlords do not lower rent, there will be mass vacancies. It is better to get some income from tenants than nothing.

mptfan
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by mptfan » Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:20 pm

UpperNwGuy wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:43 pm
I doubt I will eat in restaurants for the next few years. I don't care about the lockdown being lifted. What I care about is the number of coronavirus cases and coronavirus deaths in my city. When those go to zero, or close to zero, then I will begin to consider whether eating out is worth the risk.
Will you also wait for the seasonal flu deaths to go to zero?

UpperNwGuy
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by UpperNwGuy » Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:21 pm

mptfan wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:20 pm
UpperNwGuy wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:43 pm
I doubt I will eat in restaurants for the next few years. I don't care about the lockdown being lifted. What I care about is the number of coronavirus cases and coronavirus deaths in my city. When those go to zero, or close to zero, then I will begin to consider whether eating out is worth the risk.
Will you also wait for the seasonal flu deaths to go to zero?
Absolutely not. What a strange question. What's your point? If you have a point, just say it. Don't be cute. I get my seasonal flu shot (high dose because I am a senior) every October. You are mixing apples and oranges.

FI4LIFE
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by FI4LIFE » Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:43 pm

I vote for an outside event at someone's house. You can hire a waiter to pick up food and serve it on nice plates along with drinks in the backyard.

JackoC
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by JackoC » Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:52 pm

Balance wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:59 pm
JackoC wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:22 am
Luckywon wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:34 am
michaeljc70 wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:12 am
Luckywon wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:09 am

If seating is reduced by 50%, prices would have to go up 100% to be revenue neutral.
Staffing and food costs would go down. It would still kill most restaurants though with the fixed costs. There is a reason tables aren't 6 feet apart in a restaurant.
Maybe a good model going forward would be to have lower prices for take out than eat in. Shift the fixed costs of dining space to customers using it.
However now it's hard to predict 'post' (or respite, or diminution in) pandemic customer attitudes. Some posts seem to assume 'back to normal' generally, but I don't see that as likely in 2020. Or maybe nearer term future developments can change minds including mine (I currently don't expect to eat *in* a restaurant again in 2020 at least). In our area there are a huge number of restaurants, dozens in walking distance. I think many will have to go out of business because total demand will not really return to 'normal' in time to save them, but probably in a agonizing process drawn out by govt support (not trying to debate policy, I just think that's obvious for some doomed businesses in some places).
Interesting discussion. I think that restaurants cannot charge more but instead will need to maintain their pricing. They will have less revenue for sure and their landlords will have to take that into consideration and lower their rents accordingly. If the landlords do not lower rent, there will be mass vacancies. It is better to get some income from tenants than nothing.
Similarly to debate recently about what residential landlords 'must' do I think it's every difficult to judge that at a distance or as a blanket statement. That's what a market is after all, where things are determined case by case according the player's own view of their self interest both short and long term, rather than as a single central decision what economic actors 'should' do.

I think what will happen where I live is simply a significant % reduction in the enormous number of bars and restaurants in a small area (more than almost anywhere else, it is an outlier, but might illustrate what would happen to a more moderate extent elsewhere). The total demand might just be 10's of % lower for some years to come (hard to make a solid prediction, but changes in habit lasting well beyond this year seem likely IMO). It's not up to landlords to solve that with lower rents. It's not up to any particular establishment owners to call it quits. The local market for bar/restaurant services and commercial rents will (messily) sort it out case by case, with some distortion (though perhaps unavoidable) caused by govt programs that allow some of the doomed establishments to hang on longer than they otherwise would have, thereby postponing a return to profitability for the places that ultimately will survive. And some landlords may lower rents as is their right, but market rents probably won't go down significantly till it's clear what the new demand for restaurants and other commercial spaces actually is. There is no need, nor will the independent players somehow band together spontaneously to, just keep all the establishments open. That's almost surely not possible. Let alone any of them charging premiums to dine it, or any other price hikes probably, until the shakeout is over.

RiotAct
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by RiotAct » Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:56 pm

BogleFanGal wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:09 pm
one "good" thing that I'm hoping comes out of all this chaos is some elbow room between tables at urban restaurants. I love eating out but was getting frustrated with even the pricey restaurants pushing tables closer and closer together, so that I can't even feel comfortable having a private conversation with my dining companion and I have to hear the entire discussion of everyone around me...and pay $75-100+ for the privilege. I will go back out - but I will not be frequenting those places anymore until they change that.
my wife and I ate at a sushi restaurant in Toronto like that a few years ago. Amazing sushi and staff, but the place was the size of a janitor’s closet.

rich126
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by rich126 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:39 am

Luckywon wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:09 am
rich126 wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:58 pm
If you say reduce seating by 50%, I don't see the business surviving by increasing prices by 50%. People enjoy going out but prices do matter and if that $15, 20, 30 meal becomes $22, 30, 45 that would make eating home much more likely.
If seating is reduced by 50%, prices would have to go up 100% to be revenue neutral.
Duh. Thanks. As a math person, I feel even worse. :oops:

Regardless, anything kind of major price increase would keep many people away.

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ladders11
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by ladders11 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:26 pm

rich126 wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:39 am
Luckywon wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:09 am
rich126 wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:58 pm
If you say reduce seating by 50%, I don't see the business surviving by increasing prices by 50%. People enjoy going out but prices do matter and if that $15, 20, 30 meal becomes $22, 30, 45 that would make eating home much more likely.
If seating is reduced by 50%, prices would have to go up 100% to be revenue neutral.
Duh. Thanks. As a math person, I feel even worse. :oops:

Regardless, anything kind of major price increase would keep many people away.
True per square foot? However they may only rehire half the staff they had before, and buy half the food.

Commercial real estate companies take some rent as a percentage of sales, which is zero right now at the mall nearby. I do expect widespread vacancies in retail and restaurant spaces. Zoning requires specific uses for ground floor, and retail isn't going to be in person for a while.

There simply isn't any other use for certain spaces. Office demand is way down too.

We need more grocers, butchers, fishmongers, and warehouses to shop online and cook at home.

Boglegirl81
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by Boglegirl81 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Off-topic, but I can’t wait for Costco to start sampling again.

jebmke
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by jebmke » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:16 pm

Boglegirl81 wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm
Off-topic, but I can’t wait for Costco to start sampling again.
I've never been in a Costco so I don't know what their format is but I'm betting that the food buffets in Whole Foods and other grocery stores are history.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

btenny
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by btenny » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:34 pm

Well Boglegirl about that Costco membership. I have an Executive card and I am very POed at the company. Unless things improve I will probably cancel. I have not been able to go to shopping there in 4 weeks or more. I used to go there 1-2 times a week. The store by my house (plus two others I visited) is packed and doing little or nothing to make shopping safe. About half of the shoppers entering have no masks. Many are trailing kids and in groups. They are not cleaning carts. They are not limiting the number of shoppers. They are out of lots of stuff but will not tell you if they have it when you enter. They cut store hours and now have more people in less time. It is just bad and unsafe IMO.

Good Luck. It is tough out there.

michaeljc70
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by michaeljc70 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:40 pm

btenny wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:34 pm
Well Boglegirl about that Costco membership. I have an Executive card and I am very POed at the company. Unless things improve I will probably cancel. I have not been able to go to shopping there in 4 weeks or more. I used to go there 1-2 times a week. The store by my house (plus two others I visited) is packed and doing little or nothing to make shopping safe. About half of the shoppers entering have no masks. Many are trailing kids and in groups. They are not cleaning carts. They are not limiting the number of shoppers. They are out of lots of stuff but will not tell you if they have it when you enter. They cut store hours and now have more people in less time. It is just bad and unsafe IMO.

Good Luck. It is tough out there.
Things have changed in the last 4 weeks. My Costco (and assume this is company wide) does limit the number of shoppers in the store at one time. They also are allowing only 2 adults per card (you used to be able to bring more guests). When I went I found it to be way less crowded than normal due to limiting the number of people. The negative is there may be a line to get in. My Costco has setup what appears to be a series of carports for the people waiting in line so they don't get wet if it is raining while waiting.

I don't know of any major chain requiring shoppers to wear face masks though I know some cities have required that.

My Costco also had a whiteboard at the entrance telling you what was out of stock.

mptfan
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by mptfan » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:55 am

michaeljc70 wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:40 pm
I don't know of any major chain requiring shoppers to wear face masks though I know some cities have required that.
What cities require face masks?

jebmke
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by jebmke » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:56 am

Maryland requires a mask if you go into any retail establishment.

edit: and public transportation
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

Whakamole
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by Whakamole » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:58 am

mptfan wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:55 am
michaeljc70 wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:40 pm
I don't know of any major chain requiring shoppers to wear face masks though I know some cities have required that.
What cities require face masks?
Philadelphia.

mptfan
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by mptfan » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:02 am

Interesting. It seems that essential businesses in Philadelphia are now required to deny entry to people not wearing masks, but people are not otherwise required to wear masks.

https://6abc.com/health/pennsylvanians- ... s/6115227/

But what about customers who refuse to wear one?

"If someone comes to a store and is not wearing a mask they can be told to leave if they are not wearing a mask. Some stores may have some of their own supplies of masks. It's not a requirement," said Pennsylvania Health Secretary Rachel Levine.

UpperNwGuy
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by UpperNwGuy » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:03 am

mptfan wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:55 am
michaeljc70 wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:40 pm
I don't know of any major chain requiring shoppers to wear face masks though I know some cities have required that.
What cities require face masks?
Washington DC

sailaway
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by sailaway » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:06 am

HomerJ wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:55 pm
livesoft wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:26 pm
Jeez, if "the mood" is so easily killed by take-out, what else gets killed? Nope, I don't feel similar.
You really can't see any difference between sitting down to a nice meal, having people serve you, refill your drinks, warm food straight from the kitchen, as opposed to getting food in a styrofoam box that is all smashed together and luke-warm (if you are lucky) by the time you get home?

I don't mind take-out, but there certainly is a different "mood" to dining in a nice restaurant.
Ah, you are getting take out from the wrong places. Get your take out from some place that also offers catering and you can have your own personal buffet. We did this for my parents' 50th and it was awesome to be able to move around at will and not worry about the noise distracting other customers, kids could be kids. I think we used chinette so that no one had to suffer through dishes.

mptfan
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by mptfan » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:07 am

UpperNwGuy wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:03 am
mptfan wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:55 am
michaeljc70 wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:40 pm
I don't know of any major chain requiring shoppers to wear face masks though I know some cities have required that.
What cities require face masks?
Washington DC
Wearing masks is not required in Washington D.C.

The confusion stems from the difference in language used in the mayor’s verbal and written guidance during the coronavirus pandemic and the actual text of her emergency order, which was amended and has been extended until at least May 15.

In press conferences and news releases, the mayor has said that people are required to wear a mask or face covering in certain situations — including employees, customers, and visitors of hotels, grocery stores and other retail food sellers and taxis, ride-sharing companies, or private transportation providers. But the text of the order itself states that hotels and stores must simply post signage instructing guests and customers to wear masks or mouth coverings.

https://wamu.org/story/20/04/17/bowser- ... l-mandate/
Last edited by mptfan on Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

Whakamole
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by Whakamole » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:07 am

mptfan wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:02 am
Interesting. It seems that essential businesses in Philadelphia are now required to deny entry to people not wearing masks, but people are not otherwise required to wear masks.

https://6abc.com/health/pennsylvanians- ... s/6115227/

But what about customers who refuse to wear one?

"If someone comes to a store and is not wearing a mask they can be told to leave if they are not wearing a mask. Some stores may have some of their own supplies of masks. It's not a requirement," said Pennsylvania Health Secretary Rachel Levine.
It sounds like instead of forcing people to wear masks, they are forcing businesses to deny entry to people not wearing masks. It's the same result but this way they are putting the obligation on the business instead of the people.

stats99
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:15 pm

Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by stats99 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:08 am

State of New Jersey requires face masks. I also believe New York now does as well.

mptfan
Posts: 6049
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:58 am

Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by mptfan » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:09 am

Whakamole wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:07 am
It sounds like instead of forcing people to wear masks, they are forcing businesses to deny entry to people not wearing masks.
Right. That's not the same thing as saying everyone is required to wear a mask.

michaeljc70
Posts: 6708
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:53 pm

Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by michaeljc70 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:09 am

mptfan wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:55 am
michaeljc70 wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:40 pm
I don't know of any major chain requiring shoppers to wear face masks though I know some cities have required that.
What cities require face masks?
Cicero, Glenview, Highland Park, Morton Grove, Niles, Skokie and Wilmette all in Illinois.

https://news.wttw.com/2020/04/18/cover- ... sks-public

michaeljc70
Posts: 6708
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by michaeljc70 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:11 am

mptfan wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:09 am
Whakamole wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:07 am
It sounds like instead of forcing people to wear masks, they are forcing businesses to deny entry to people not wearing masks.
Right. That's not the same thing as saying everyone is required to wear a mask.
It is effectively the same and not true everywhere:

"In Morton Grove, police are empowered to issue warnings to anyone not following the directive. And breaking the rules twice could lead to legal troubles.

According to the directive, “persons not following this directive who have previously received a warning from the Village of Morton Grove Police Department may be issued a citation or arrested in the discretion of the Chief of Police or his designee.”

https://news.wttw.com/2020/04/18/cover- ... sks-public

mptfan
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by mptfan » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:11 am

stats99 wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:08 am
State of New Jersey requires face masks. I also believe New York now does as well.
Governor Cuomo has publicly stated there are no penalties for not wearing a mask...

In New York, the penalties for ignoring the order are, for now, still theoretical. “If people don’t follow it, we could do a civil penalty,” Mr. Cuomo said on Wednesday. “You’re not going to go to jail for not wearing a mask."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/17/nyre ... masks.html

UpperNwGuy
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by UpperNwGuy » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:30 am

mptfan wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:07 am
UpperNwGuy wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:03 am
mptfan wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:55 am
michaeljc70 wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:40 pm
I don't know of any major chain requiring shoppers to wear face masks though I know some cities have required that.
What cities require face masks?
Washington DC
Wearing masks is not required in Washington D.C.

The confusion stems from the difference in language used in the mayor’s verbal and written guidance during the coronavirus pandemic and the actual text of her emergency order, which was amended and has been extended until at least May 15.

In press conferences and news releases, the mayor has said that people are required to wear a mask or face covering in certain situations — including employees, customers, and visitors of hotels, grocery stores and other retail food sellers and taxis, ride-sharing companies, or private transportation providers. But the text of the order itself states that hotels and stores must simply post signage instructing guests and customers to wear masks or mouth coverings.

https://wamu.org/story/20/04/17/bowser- ... l-mandate/
So... have you tried entering a DC grocery store without a mask lately? Or entering the controlled area of a DC farmers market? Have you noticed the police watching the entrances to the farmers markets since the fish market fiasco of two weeks ago?

valleyrock
Posts: 158
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by valleyrock » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:31 am

I agree the best thing is to let others do the beta testing. I wouldn't buy the first year of a new model car, either.

But don't get the cart before the horse. Until virus testing is widespread, people won't go back to work anyway, and that includes restaurants.

michaeljc70
Posts: 6708
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by michaeljc70 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:40 am

valleyrock wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:31 am
I agree the best thing is to let others do the beta testing. I wouldn't buy the first year of a new model car, either.

But don't get the cart before the horse. Until virus testing is widespread, people won't go back to work anyway, and that includes restaurants.
I keep hearing this repeated. What does that do? I could test negative in the morning and get it by evening. Or maybe even have been exposed and tested negative at that point and have it the next day (they don't seem sure on when you test positive). We don't know if once you get it you are immune. This is being repeated over and over and it is no panacea in my mind.

Dottie57
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Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 5:43 pm
Location: Earth Northern Hemisphere

Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by Dottie57 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:45 am

Dottie57 wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:26 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:55 pm
livesoft wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:26 pm
Jeez, if "the mood" is so easily killed by take-out, what else gets killed? Nope, I don't feel similar.
You really can't see any difference between sitting down to a nice meal, having people serve you, refill your drinks, warm food straight from the kitchen, as opposed to getting food in a styrofoam box that is all smashed together and luke-warm (if you are lucky) by the time you get home?

I don't mind take-out, but there certainly is a different "mood" to dining in a nice restaurant.
These days any food I don’t make is festive. Planning festive dinner for two from local eatery tomorrow. A bottle of wine will be cracked too!
A favorite take-out place is opening on Wednesday. I’ll be There on Thursday for dinner. Color me happy!

HomeStretch
Posts: 4667
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:06 pm

Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by HomeStretch » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:52 am

jebmke wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:56 am
Maryland requires a mask if you go into any retail establishment.

edit: and public transportation
Same for CT and NY.

Whakamole
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by Whakamole » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:54 am

mptfan wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:11 am
stats99 wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:08 am
State of New Jersey requires face masks. I also believe New York now does as well.
Governor Cuomo has publicly stated there are no penalties for not wearing a mask...

In New York, the penalties for ignoring the order are, for now, still theoretical. “If people don’t follow it, we could do a civil penalty,” Mr. Cuomo said on Wednesday. “You’re not going to go to jail for not wearing a mask."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/17/nyre ... masks.html
That quote says they could do a civil penalty, which is a fine. That's still a penalty, just as much as a traffic or parking ticket is a penalty even if you aren't going to jail over it.

mptfan
Posts: 6049
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:58 am

Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by mptfan » Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:50 am

Whakamole wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:54 am
mptfan wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:11 am
stats99 wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:08 am
State of New Jersey requires face masks. I also believe New York now does as well.
Governor Cuomo has publicly stated there are no penalties for not wearing a mask...

In New York, the penalties for ignoring the order are, for now, still theoretical. “If people don’t follow it, we could do a civil penalty,” Mr. Cuomo said on Wednesday. “You’re not going to go to jail for not wearing a mask."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/17/nyre ... masks.html
That quote says they could do a civil penalty, which is a fine. That's still a penalty, just as much as a traffic or parking ticket is a penalty even if you aren't going to jail over it.
You are taking that part of the quote out of context. Governor Cuomo meant that they "could" do a civil penalty, meaning he could, if he wanted, proscribe in his executive order that a violation would be penalized by a civil penalty, but he has chosen not to do so, i.e. his executive order does not state that there would be any civil or criminal penalties for not complying. So as of now there is no civil or criminal penalty for not wearing a mask in New York.

But Cuomo has made clear: Nobody will be taken to jail for violating the mask order. And as of now, there are no fines or civil penalties either, meaning law enforcement can't do much other than remind offenders they must cover their face.

"The local governments have police forces," Cuomo said Thursday on CNN. "They can enforce it. They will enforce it. We don't have a civil fine that goes with this now, but we could. And I believe people are going to follow it."
...
Executive orders that aren’t enforceable put police in “an impossible situation,” said Pat Phelan, police chief in the town of Greece, near Rochester. Phelan, who is president of the state Association of Chiefs of Police, said his officers wouldn’t approach someone who may not be in compliance with the order because there aren’t penalties in place.


https://www.democratandchronicle.com/st ... 151375002/

Luckywon
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Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by Luckywon » Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:31 pm

mptfan wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:55 am
michaeljc70 wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:40 pm
I don't know of any major chain requiring shoppers to wear face masks though I know some cities have required that.
What cities require face masks?
Many counties and cities in California. In Beverly Hills, it's even required if you are walking by yourself outside.

iamlucky13
Posts: 1897
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:28 pm
Location: Western Washington

Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by iamlucky13 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:03 pm

I can't make recommendations for anyone else, especially considering different groups are exhibiting different levels of risk, but personally, once restaurants are allowed to re-open, I anticipate resuming my prior habits for our family. We can't afford to eat out regularly anyways. If we did, I suppose I would initially reduce the frequency while continuing to monitor how things are going in our area.

For the sake of those who might be uncomfortable attending, I don't think I will be scheduling any gatherings at restaurants this summer for groups beyond my family.

In the OP's situation, I'd probably discuss with the relatives in question if they are interested in a gathering at private location for the occasion if recommendations in place at the time can be observed.
valleyrock wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:31 am
Until virus testing is widespread, people won't go back to work anyway, and that includes restaurants.
My employer is re-opening production facilities this week, with numerous additional mitigations to reduce risk. The company leadership tells us this been discussed with the state, and we're a large enough company, I'm sure the state would call us out on it if that were a lie.

So far, our state appears to have been managing the outbreak relatively effectively. We were the first state to document a case, and appear to have crested the peak about 2 weeks ago. That increases my confidence the state health officials are able to provide reasonable recommendations to employers.

I've also spent a fair amount of time reviewing what researchers have been publishing about the risks and recommended mitigations to determine my personal comfort level working onsite with the mitigations we've been instructed to follow in place.

I'm told our cafeteria will be limited to pre-made items to eat at our desk, but that's unimportant to me. I almost always bring my own lunch anyways.

JediMisty
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:06 am
Location: Central NJ

Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by JediMisty » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:43 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:40 pm
btenny wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:34 pm
Well Boglegirl about that Costco membership. I have an Executive card and I am very POed at the company. Unless things improve I will probably cancel. I have not been able to go to shopping there in 4 weeks or more. I used to go there 1-2 times a week. The store by my house (plus two others I visited) is packed and doing little or nothing to make shopping safe. About half of the shoppers entering have no masks. Many are trailing kids and in groups. They are not cleaning carts. They are not limiting the number of shoppers. They are out of lots of stuff but will not tell you if they have it when you enter. They cut store hours and now have more people in less time. It is just bad and unsafe IMO.

Good Luck. It is tough out there.
Things have changed in the last 4 weeks. My Costco (and assume this is company wide) does limit the number of shoppers in the store at one time. They also are allowing only 2 adults per card (you used to be able to bring more guests). When I went I found it to be way less crowded than normal due to limiting the number of people. The negative is there may be a line to get in. My Costco has setup what appears to be a series of carports for the people waiting in line so they don't get wet if it is raining while waiting.

I don't know of any major chain requiring shoppers to wear face masks though I know some cities have required that.

My Costco also had a whiteboard at the entrance telling you what was out of stock.
+1. Face masks required in NJ.

valleyrock
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:12 am

Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by valleyrock » Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:13 am

iamlucky13 wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:03 pm
I can't make recommendations for anyone else, especially considering different groups are exhibiting different levels of risk, but personally, once restaurants are allowed to re-open, I anticipate resuming my prior habits for our family. We can't afford to eat out regularly anyways. If we did, I suppose I would initially reduce the frequency while continuing to monitor how things are going in our area.

For the sake of those who might be uncomfortable attending, I don't think I will be scheduling any gatherings at restaurants this summer for groups beyond my family.

In the OP's situation, I'd probably discuss with the relatives in question if they are interested in a gathering at private location for the occasion if recommendations in place at the time can be observed.
valleyrock wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:31 am
Until virus testing is widespread, people won't go back to work anyway, and that includes restaurants.
My employer is re-opening production facilities this week, with numerous additional mitigations to reduce risk. The company leadership tells us this been discussed with the state, and we're a large enough company, I'm sure the state would call us out on it if that were a lie.

So far, our state appears to have been managing the outbreak relatively effectively. We were the first state to document a case, and appear to have crested the peak about 2 weeks ago. That increases my confidence the state health officials are able to provide reasonable recommendations to employers.

I've also spent a fair amount of time reviewing what researchers have been publishing about the risks and recommended mitigations to determine my personal comfort level working onsite with the mitigations we've been instructed to follow in place.

I'm told our cafeteria will be limited to pre-made items to eat at our desk, but that's unimportant to me. I almost always bring my own lunch anyways.
One obvious point is that it ought not take long to find out if going back to work at various venues is a good idea or not. People can then change their asset allocations accordingly, or not.

Of course, getting the right data will be important and very helpful. How can people make meaningful financial decisions (about investing or just going back to work) without knowing there will be workplace monitoring.

So let's hope that these large companies have set up data gathering mechanisms, in advance, so they can monitor the efficacy of their approaches. (That might make some employees more comfortable, knowing that there will be monitoring of various sorts.) This can run the gamut from following up on why particular employees are absent, to answering some basic questions at the start of each workday. How are you feeling? Do you have a temperature, a cough, etc.? Do you know anyone who does and/or anyone who's been exposed to someone with the virus. And then ground-truth these answers. Set up some anonymous ways also for people to report violations of safety protocols. And, believe it or not, some folks just might go to work knowing they are ill.

SimonJester
Posts: 2136
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:39 pm

Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by SimonJester » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:41 pm

Boglegirl81 wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm
Off-topic, but I can’t wait for Costco to start sampling again.
I hope this never comes back... Its the worst part of Costco...
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

SimonJester
Posts: 2136
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:39 pm

Re: Eating out after lock-down is lifted

Post by SimonJester » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:43 pm

Luckywon wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:09 am
rich126 wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:58 pm
If you say reduce seating by 50%, I don't see the business surviving by increasing prices by 50%. People enjoy going out but prices do matter and if that $15, 20, 30 meal becomes $22, 30, 45 that would make eating home much more likely.
If seating is reduced by 50%, prices would have to go up 100% to be revenue neutral.
The other option is to decrease quality by 200% and still increase prices. We saw this after 2008-2009
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

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