Safest way to get food

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SimonJester
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by SimonJester » Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:05 am

Swivelguy wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:13 pm
Ah you're right, I left a couple steps out. I tossed the N95 in the back seat of the car (where nobody will be for a week+) then retrieved it while retrieving the grocery bags, and left it in the bags where it'll stay for a week+ before re-use.
You should not be tossing it into the backseat of the car, you are risking spreading the virus onto the fabric surfaces of your vehicle, then your vehicles AC system will disperse them into the entire cabin.

There are no good studies on reusing N95 masks, as they were never designed to be reused. However my Wife an RN is reusing her one mask, she places it into large Ziptop bag, leaving the bag open so the mask can dry out. Doing this with gloves, not touching face, disposing of gloves afterwords, same for retrieving and re doning the mask.


Our health department just announced a worker at our local grocery store tested positive, after working for weeks WITH symptoms. The store is refusing to state which department the worker worked in. They closed the store for a few hours to disinfect. Of course I went shopping one of the days that person worked...
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by Cheez-It Guy » Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:07 am

Grow it yourself.

InvestingGeek
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by InvestingGeek » Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:19 am

timboktoo wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:23 am
livesoft wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:47 am
timboktoo wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:26 pm
My face just fell through my neck and out through the bottom of my stomach.
Why is that? What do you think people who have contracted coronavirus do while they are asymptomatic and before they show signs of illness (fever, headache)? Why do you think we have social distancing and stay-at-home orders nowadays? Many people were infected well before these practices were put in place. You already know how the virus is transmitted and how many people unwittingly have infected others. We all have learned what "community spread" means.

People who post here will catch coronavirus. That does not mean that ALL people who post here will catch coronavirus, but I would not be surprised if some have already been infected. And please don't jump to the conclusion that I said that posting here will get you infected. I didn't state that.
livesoft,

I don't know anybody who has caught the virus. I certainly don't know anybody who has died from it. I know, cerebrally, that it's deadly. I know, cerebrally, why we're doing what we're doing right now. But you are the first person I (sort of) know who just said they know some people who have died from it. That brings a different emotional reaction, which I'm quite entitled to. The sentence was shocking. Allow me to be shocked.

- Tim
If it helps, we also have had two neighbors here die of this over the past week. Seniors both and apparently the sweetest people. Yes, when you hear something like that is when things get real serious.

InvestingGeek
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by InvestingGeek » Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:21 am

SimonJester wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:05 am
There are no good studies on reusing N95 masks, as they were never designed to be reused. However my Wife an RN is reusing her one mask, she places it into large Ziptop bag, leaving the bag open so the mask can dry out. Doing this with gloves, not touching face, disposing of gloves afterwords, same for retrieving and re doning the mask.
But wouldn't any contamination just get onto the inside surface of the bag and eventually get onto the safe side of the mask when she pulls it out for her next reuse?

TheOscarGuy
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by TheOscarGuy » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:19 am

pablolo wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:45 pm
I ordered online of meal from Olive garden free paid with my credit card online and then went to curbside and had them deliver the food on top of my car with the window up I felt safe
It must have been difficult to drive back, with food on top of your car :D

squirm
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by squirm » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:04 am

how are gloves going to protect you? the virus just gets on the gloves and then on whatever you touch. why not just wash your hands afterwards, or use wipes? or bring a container of warm water with soap and just wash your hands in the parking lot afterwards.

stoptothink
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by stoptothink » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:13 am

squirm wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:04 am
how are gloves going to protect you? the virus just gets on the gloves and then on whatever you touch. why not just wash your hands afterwards, or use wipes? or bring a container of warm water with soap and just wash your hands in the parking lot afterwards.
Unless you take some other precautions and be absolutely sure to take them off correctly, they likely are not doing anything. In places like a grocery store, the use of gloves may actually increase the risk for the virus being spread.

carolinaman
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by carolinaman » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:40 am

I did delivery from Publix one time (Instacart). It was expensive as everything is marked up plus delivery plus tip. The next week I shopped online at Harris Teeter and did parking lot pickup. They waived fees so this is much better. In both instances, they did substitutions that I did not like and a number of things were not available.

This week I tried senior hour at Publix at 7am Tuesday. Bad idea! That was the most crowded I have seen that store at any time. I did wear a mask but no gloves, I fail to see the benefit of that. Seniors are much better at keeping distance than under 60 crowd. I sanitized my hands once I got to the car and thoroughly washed my hands before and after handling groceries at home. I guess I am going to stick with HT pickup. Biggest issue is you have to order 7 days in advance.

We have been cleaning/wiping perishable items. Scrub raw fruits and veggies. We put non perishables in sun room until we need them, at least 5 days. We wash our hands before and after handling groceries.

I really wish there was some definitive information about how to manage groceries. There is lots of advice but seems to be guess work so far.

TheOscarGuy
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by TheOscarGuy » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:13 pm

squirm wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:04 am
how are gloves going to protect you? the virus just gets on the gloves and then on whatever you touch. why not just wash your hands afterwards, or use wipes? or bring a container of warm water with soap and just wash your hands in the parking lot afterwards.
Gloves at grocery + quarantine the food that you touched for atleast 72 hours. Assuming packaging was plastic.

palanzo
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by palanzo » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:36 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:13 am
squirm wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:04 am
how are gloves going to protect you? the virus just gets on the gloves and then on whatever you touch. why not just wash your hands afterwards, or use wipes? or bring a container of warm water with soap and just wash your hands in the parking lot afterwards.
Unless you take some other precautions and be absolutely sure to take them off correctly, they likely are not doing anything. In places like a grocery store, the use of gloves may actually increase the risk for the virus being spread.
Agreed. Not touching your face in the grocery store and using alcohol wipes after you leave and before your get in the car seems like a better approach.

seawolf21
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by seawolf21 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:47 pm

HomeStretch wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:36 am
Swivelguy wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:08 pm
11. Wash hands again

Finally: sit down on the couch and wonder if all that effort really made a difference.
Before sitting down on the couch, we are:

12. Leaving shoes worn to store in clean up area.
13. Removing clothes worn to store and putting them directly into washing machine.
14. Showering.

Probably overkill but trying to keep kids living with us safe and age 80+ parents/in laws safe as we are in contact with them for cooked food / grocery drop off weekly.
Overkill is step 13 is replaced with burning your clothes instead of washing. :D

livesoft
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by livesoft » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:05 pm

InvisibleAerobar wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:46 pm
Are there reputable sources that provide instruction for these (not trying to challenge your finding, just trying to find out the procedure)?

Also, what is the radiation dosage needed for this? As a chem grad student, I used UV lights to detect presence of molecules. Doubt that those would work.
A battery-operated UV device called a SteriPen is used by backpackers and others to make small amounts (say around 1 L) of water safe to drink. It does NOT kill infectious organisms but damages their DNA so that they cannot reproduce and make more viable copies of themselves. You can google and read up about such devices. The original water being disinfected should not be murky and needs to be stirred while being treated, so that the UV light has a good probability of reaching a good bit of the genetic material in any infectious microorganisms in the water.

I only note this to help people understand how radiation and UV light work in that particular context. Such devices would not be useful for masks and food.
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RobLyons
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Best way to safely obtain essential groceries?

Post by RobLyons » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:27 pm

[Merged into the existing discussion -- moderator oldcomputerguy]

So we've seen a panic hoarding trend that has wiped out all hand sanitizer, toilet paper, and disinfectant supplies in local and online stores. Our local grocery delivery service is completely booked for every time slot over the entire schedule. Now grocery stores are limiting the number of customers allowed into the store at one time, causing lines to wrap around stores. Warehouse clubs are not immune to these issues. With this said, it seems our only viable option is standing in line. I'd prefer not to send my wife out to stand in the rain and cold (northeast) and I'm working almost non stop at the hospital and would rather not spend the hours I would sleep standing in line, possibly infecting others (and possibly setting myself up for illness due to lack of sleep).
Does anyone have better, consistent options out there? Thanks in advance!
Last edited by RobLyons on Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Flobes
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Re: Best way to safely obtain essential groceries?

Post by Flobes » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:32 pm

RobLyons wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:27 pm
Does anyone have better options out there? Thanks in advance!
Read these current Boglehead conversations, each with many many responses:

Are you still going to the grocery store or using a delivery service?

Safest way to get food

RobLyons
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Re: Best way to safely obtain essential groceries?

Post by RobLyons » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:49 pm

Flobes wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:32 pm
RobLyons wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:27 pm
Does anyone have better options out there? Thanks in advance!
Read these current Boglehead conversations, each with many many responses:

Are you still going to the grocery store or using a delivery service?

Safest way to get food


Thanks!
"Great parenting sets the foundation for a better world"

Shallowpockets
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Re: Best way to safely obtain essential groceries?

Post by Shallowpockets » Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:02 pm

The delivery times availability is your chokepoint. I saw on Walmart they had offered you to look at the dates/times before placing items in your cart. At another store you could not see it until you did fill the cart. I would check on a regular basis. If you can, fill your cart and hold it until you see an opening. Then buy. Take whatever opening is available. Do not be picky about it.
We made our first ever order online, to be picked up, order today. Pickup date is Saturday at 2-3pm. We will see how that works out.

Good luck and thank you so much for being on the front lines at your hospital.
The entire system, medical, food, is fragmented and very precarious. And not getting better.
Food will become a much bigger issue than anyone ever realized. Food banks have seen a rise in demand not ever seen before. Vietnam is keeping control of its rice exports. Not only are people looking for groceries, countries are looking too.
Don’t hoard is the public and philosophical mantra, but best to be prepared.

mancich
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by mancich » Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:27 pm

Cheez-It Guy wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:07 am
Grow it yourself.
+1. We are starting a garden this spring. Something we have always wanted to do, and although hopefully COVID will be gone by the time we harvest, it still is worth it to us to have fresh veggies.

MDfan
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by MDfan » Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:29 pm

Trader Joe wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:57 pm
pablolo wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:28 pm
What do you feel is the safest way to get food? Online shopping and pick up in the parking lot with the food delivered on top of the car or delivered to your house or personal shopping in grocery stores?
The safest way to get food for me is the way it has always has been in my whole lifetime. Going to the grocery store. I just went today.
Me too. I just go early in the morning. No way is completely safe right now but I'm still trying to maintain some sense of normalcy.

shell921
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by shell921 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:45 pm

livesoft wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:47 am
timboktoo wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:26 pm
My face just fell through my neck and out through the bottom of my stomach.
Why is that? What do you think people who have contracted coronavirus do while they are asymptomatic and before they show signs of illness (fever, headache)? Why do you think we have social distancing and stay-at-home orders nowadays? Many people were infected well before these practices were put in place. You already know how the virus is transmitted and how many people unwittingly have infected others. We all have learned what "community spread" means.

People who post here will catch coronavirus. That does not mean that ALL people who post here will catch coronavirus, but I would not be surprised if some have already been infected. And please don't jump to the conclusion that I said that posting here will get you infected. I didn't state that.
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37 days ago I had relatives for 5 days as house guests. They arrived sick and coughing :confused

They said they were "getting over colds". I began getting a sore throat the day they departed. Then a cough.
But a productive cough. No fever or shortness of breath. I had headache and malaise for several days. I rested and
isolated and hydrated. I felt a lot better in 7 days but still coughed - clear mucus. Finally at day 33 I stopped coughing and felt my "normal" energetic self again. I emailed my allergist
asking if she thought perhaps I had had a mild form of the virus. She replied that it's possible I did but since antibody tests were
not yet available even for doctors and nurses I would not be able to be tested and to check back with her in 3 weeks.

Swivelguy
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by Swivelguy » Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:11 pm

squirm wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:04 am
how are gloves going to protect you? the virus just gets on the gloves and then on whatever you touch. why not just wash your hands afterwards, or use wipes? or bring a container of warm water with soap and just wash your hands in the parking lot afterwards.
The point of a glove is that you can discard it as a way of cleaning your hands, if you need to switch from touching possibly contaminated surfaces to touching surfaces you don't want contaminated, and don't have a practical way to sanitize or clean your hands in between (ie. standing at a checkout register).

palanzo
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by palanzo » Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:23 pm

Swivelguy wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:11 pm
squirm wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:04 am
how are gloves going to protect you? the virus just gets on the gloves and then on whatever you touch. why not just wash your hands afterwards, or use wipes? or bring a container of warm water with soap and just wash your hands in the parking lot afterwards.
The point of a glove is that you can discard it as a way of cleaning your hands, if you need to switch from touching possibly contaminated surfaces to touching surfaces you don't want contaminated, and don't have a practical way to sanitize or clean your hands in between (ie. standing at a checkout register).
Why would you need to take your gloves off at the checkout register? Easy to sanitize your hands at the register if desired. Just use a hand sanitizer.

mptfan
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by mptfan » Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:27 pm

timboktoo wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:23 am
I don't know anybody who has caught the virus.
You don't know that.

squirm
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by squirm » Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:03 pm

I leave the phone at home when I go shopping.

squirm
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by squirm » Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:06 pm

palanzo wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:37 pm
squirm wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:45 am
what i don't understand are the questions about the N95 masks here.
If our top experts in infectious disease control at the government don't know if they help or not for the general population, how is anyone on an internet forum going to know?
The CDC gave the guidance it did because there were not enough N95 masks. Compare the advice from the Korean or Taiwanese CDCs.
Clear as mud. Then the surgeon general says they don't work, they don't protect the wearer. Go figure.

I have the n95 mask that I use for sanding, blah blah blah. Their not exactly easily to put on/off without getting fingers all over your face either.
Last edited by squirm on Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Blue456
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by Blue456 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:31 pm

InvisibleAerobar wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:46 pm
Blue456 wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:20 am
InvestingGeek wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:21 am
SimonJester wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:05 am
There are no good studies on reusing N95 masks, as they were never designed to be reused. However my Wife an RN is reusing her one mask, she places it into large Ziptop bag, leaving the bag open so the mask can dry out. Doing this with gloves, not touching face, disposing of gloves afterwords, same for retrieving and re doning the mask.
But wouldn't any contamination just get onto the inside surface of the bag and eventually get onto the safe side of the mask when she pulls it out for her next reuse?
That is exactly how people get sick when reusing N95. Whoever is the hospital administrator that came up with the idea of placing the N95 in a bag (usually paper bag for some odd reason) has obviously no medical background. N95 can be cleaned via UV light or hot steam generated in microwave oven. Never re-use same N95 without decontamination. Never place it in a bag, unless it is clean.
Are there reputable sources that provide instruction for these (not trying to challenge your finding, just trying to find out the procedure)?

Also, what is the radiation dosage needed for this? As a chem grad student, I used UV lights to detect presence of molecules. Doubt that those would work.

Lastly, for items such as surgical masks, do you know if soaking in isopropyl alcohol, followed by drying would a) disinfect and b) not damage the fabric?

I've personally gotten rather paranoid about this, setting up a "station" as a poster suggested upthread. Not really worried about food in cardboard packages, as those could be dumped out into a bin. Things that do concern me are produce and those immediately encased by plastic (think cheeses and cold cuts), especially if the plastic is saran wrap, as I'm not sure if those are impermeable to alcohol.
Read this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2781738/ <---- this one compares various methods of decontamination N95s
https://academic.oup.com/annweh/article/56/1/92/166111
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1A9Sa7Y ... qrylF/view
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3078131/

InvisibleAerobar
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by InvisibleAerobar » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:00 pm


random_walker_77
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by random_walker_77 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:31 pm

HomeStretch wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:36 am
Swivelguy wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:08 pm
11. Wash hands again

Finally: sit down on the couch and wonder if all that effort really made a difference.
Before sitting down on the couch, we are:

12. Leaving shoes worn to store in clean up area.
13. Removing clothes worn to store and putting them directly into washing machine.
14. Showering.

Probably overkill but trying to keep kids living with us safe and age 80+ parents/in laws safe as we are in contact with them for cooked food / grocery drop off weekly.
Relevant to whether such precautions make a difference, see this article in the NY Times. Choice excerpts:

"The importance of viral dose is being overlooked in discussions of the coronavirus. As with any other poison, viruses are usually more dangerous in larger amounts. Small initial exposures tend to lead to mild or asymptomatic infections, while larger doses can be lethal...
.
Virus experts know that viral dose affects illness severity. In the lab, mice receiving a low dose of virus clear it and recover, while the same virus at a higher dose kills them.
.
Before the invention of vaccines, doctors often intentionally infected healthy individuals with fluid from smallpox pustules. The resulting low-dose infections were unpleasant but generally survivable, and they prevented worse incidents of disease when those individuals were later exposed to smallpox in uncontrolled amounts.
"
(**note, this was classified as an opinion piece. The authors are scientists in chemistry/genomics)

So, yes, masks help. It's best not to get infected at all, but if you do get infected, it's better to have been infected by a small dose rather than a large dose. Masks and distancing help ensure that you're not inhaling a concentrated plume of airborne microdroplets.

This also means that our poor nurses, doctors, and first responders are getting exposed to more dangerous concentrations of virus, which is why they need the n95 masks more than anyone else.

halfnine
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by halfnine » Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:07 am

random_walker_77 wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:31 pm
HomeStretch wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:36 am
Swivelguy wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:08 pm
11. Wash hands again

Finally: sit down on the couch and wonder if all that effort really made a difference.
Before sitting down on the couch, we are:

12. Leaving shoes worn to store in clean up area.
13. Removing clothes worn to store and putting them directly into washing machine.
14. Showering.

Probably overkill but trying to keep kids living with us safe and age 80+ parents/in laws safe as we are in contact with them for cooked food / grocery drop off weekly.
Relevant to whether such precautions make a difference, see this article in the NY Times. Choice excerpts:

"The importance of viral dose is being overlooked in discussions of the coronavirus. As with any other poison, viruses are usually more dangerous in larger amounts. Small initial exposures tend to lead to mild or asymptomatic infections, while larger doses can be lethal...
.
Virus experts know that viral dose affects illness severity. In the lab, mice receiving a low dose of virus clear it and recover, while the same virus at a higher dose kills them.
.
Before the invention of vaccines, doctors often intentionally infected healthy individuals with fluid from smallpox pustules. The resulting low-dose infections were unpleasant but generally survivable, and they prevented worse incidents of disease when those individuals were later exposed to smallpox in uncontrolled amounts.
"
(**note, this was classified as an opinion piece. The authors are scientists in chemistry/genomics)

So, yes, masks help. It's best not to get infected at all, but if you do get infected, it's better to have been infected by a small dose rather than a large dose. Masks and distancing help ensure that you're not inhaling a concentrated plume of airborne microdroplets.

This also means that our poor nurses, doctors, and first responders are getting exposed to more dangerous concentrations of virus, which is why they need the n95 masks more than anyone else.
I imagine the first individual in our family would likely be infected with a low dose which all things considered will be great for them. However, preventing the rest of us from being infected with a higher dose especially with young children in the house is a bit more problematic.

squirm
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by squirm » Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:40 am

random_walker_77 wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:31 pm
HomeStretch wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:36 am
Swivelguy wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:08 pm
11. Wash hands again

Finally: sit down on the couch and wonder if all that effort really made a difference.
Before sitting down on the couch, we are:

12. Leaving shoes worn to store in clean up area.
13. Removing clothes worn to store and putting them directly into washing machine.
14. Showering.

Probably overkill but trying to keep kids living with us safe and age 80+ parents/in laws safe as we are in contact with them for cooked food / grocery drop off weekly.
Relevant to whether such precautions make a difference, see this article in the NY Times. Choice excerpts:

"The importance of viral dose is being overlooked in discussions of the coronavirus. As with any other poison, viruses are usually more dangerous in larger amounts. Small initial exposures tend to lead to mild or asymptomatic infections, while larger doses can be lethal...
.
Virus experts know that viral dose affects illness severity. In the lab, mice receiving a low dose of virus clear it and recover, while the same virus at a higher dose kills them.
.
Before the invention of vaccines, doctors often intentionally infected healthy individuals with fluid from smallpox pustules. The resulting low-dose infections were unpleasant but generally survivable, and they prevented worse incidents of disease when those individuals were later exposed to smallpox in uncontrolled amounts.
"
(**note, this was classified as an opinion piece. The authors are scientists in chemistry/genomics)

So, yes, masks help. It's best not to get infected at all, but if you do get infected, it's better to have been infected by a small dose rather than a large dose. Masks and distancing help ensure that you're not inhaling a concentrated plume of airborne microdroplets.

This also means that our poor nurses, doctors, and first responders are getting exposed to more dangerous concentrations of virus, which is why they need the n95 masks more than anyone else.
I'll admit to not reading the article, yet, but I was under the impression that exposure dose and viral load are exclusive to each other.

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scorcher31
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by scorcher31 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:43 am

I have to say, I enjoy Amazon's whole foods delivery for Prime users more than I should. Just discovered it a couple of months ago. There is no delivery charge other than tip, which to me is worth my time and gas. They drop it off right at your porch so that would minimize exposure.

PhoebeCoco
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by PhoebeCoco » Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:02 am

I also like Amazon's Whole Foods delivery. I discovered it last week, when I was trying to find toilet paper. They had some in stock! A 12-pack! Whee! :happy

I'm now stocking my Amazon Whole Foods cart for the next delivery. I've noticed that this will keep me from those impulse purchases I make when shopping in person - the kind of purchases that add up so quickly and unexpectedly.
If you're not working on yourself, you're not working.

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JAZZISCOOL
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by JAZZISCOOL » Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:11 am

PhoebeCoco wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:02 am
I also like Amazon's Whole Foods delivery. I discovered it last week, when I was trying to find toilet paper. They had some in stock! A 12-pack! Whee! :happy

I'm now stocking my Amazon Whole Foods cart for the next delivery. I've noticed that this will keep me from those impulse purchases I make when shopping in person - the kind of purchases that add up so quickly and unexpectedly.
+1

After using both Safeway & Kroger curbside pickup (both had issues), I tried Amazon Fresh recently with good results. No substitutions and timely texts prior to delivery.

Limited selection but I least I knew that upfront. They tell you online what is out of stock while Safeway & Kroger have issues with that. Hopefully that will improve over time along with time slots.

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JAZZISCOOL
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by JAZZISCOOL » Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:07 pm

The Governor of my state now requires a cloth face mask for everyone when they go to the store, etc. He says we can use bandanas or old t-shirts. :|

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iceport
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by iceport » Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:42 pm

Blue456 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:29 pm
pablolo wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:28 pm
What do you feel is the safest way to get food? Online shopping and pick up in the parking lot with the food delivered on top of the car or delivered to your house or personal shopping in grocery stores?
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/N ... lB_article

From the above article it seems like virus can stay active on plastic for about 3 days, stainless steal also 3 days and cardboard box for about 2 days. Make your own conclusions about the chance of someone contaminating your food at the store and act accordingly.
Yes, but that very same summary provides additional information on the estimated half-life of the virus on various surfaces, and those are dramatically shorter.

This piece provides necessary interpretation of the raw data:

Opinion | Don’t panic about shopping, getting delivery or accepting packages

I've been treating the isolation of potentially contaminated objects for a period of time, during which they are not touched by anyone, as a legitimate way to render the potential viral doses harmless.

If I drive to a store, pick up groceries, and then know I will not need to touch the car for a couple of days, I see no need to run around sanitizing handles or worrying about fabric contamination. That includes food provisions that can sit untouched in a cupboard or in the fridge for a few days. Of course, that works better for those of us living alone than for folks that cohabitate.
"Discipline matters more than allocation.” ─William Bernstein

Luckywon
Posts: 947
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by Luckywon » Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:47 pm

Trader Joe wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:57 pm
pablolo wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:28 pm
What do you feel is the safest way to get food? Online shopping and pick up in the parking lot with the food delivered on top of the car or delivered to your house or personal shopping in grocery stores?
The safest way to get food for me is the way it has always has been in my whole lifetime. Going to the grocery store. I just went today.
Ahem, based on your name, shouldn't you recuse yourself from this thread?

Blue456
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:46 am

Re: Safest way to get food

Post by Blue456 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:13 pm

iceport wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:42 pm
Blue456 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:29 pm
pablolo wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:28 pm
What do you feel is the safest way to get food? Online shopping and pick up in the parking lot with the food delivered on top of the car or delivered to your house or personal shopping in grocery stores?
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/N ... lB_article

From the above article it seems like virus can stay active on plastic for about 3 days, stainless steal also 3 days and cardboard box for about 2 days. Make your own conclusions about the chance of someone contaminating your food at the store and act accordingly.
Yes, but that very same summary provides additional information on the estimated half-life of the virus on various surfaces, and those are dramatically shorter.

This piece provides necessary interpretation of the raw data:

Opinion | Don’t panic about shopping, getting delivery or accepting packages

I've been treating the isolation of potentially contaminated objects for a period of time, during which they are not touched by anyone, as a legitimate way to render the potential viral doses harmless.

If I drive to a store, pick up groceries, and then know I will not need to touch the car for a couple of days, I see no need to run around sanitizing handles or worrying about fabric contamination. That includes food provisions that can sit untouched in a cupboard or in the fridge for a few days. Of course, that works better for those of us living alone than for folks that cohabitate.
Half life does not mean that the virus is not infectious. Half life just means that you have half of the amount of the virus than what you had before. Of course you can make your own judgement on the NJEM article but Washington post is not exactly quality evidence.

absolute zero
Posts: 315
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:59 pm

Re: Safest way to get food

Post by absolute zero » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:29 pm

Blue456 wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:13 pm
iceport wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:42 pm
Blue456 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:29 pm
pablolo wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:28 pm
What do you feel is the safest way to get food? Online shopping and pick up in the parking lot with the food delivered on top of the car or delivered to your house or personal shopping in grocery stores?
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/N ... lB_article

From the above article it seems like virus can stay active on plastic for about 3 days, stainless steal also 3 days and cardboard box for about 2 days. Make your own conclusions about the chance of someone contaminating your food at the store and act accordingly.
Yes, but that very same summary provides additional information on the estimated half-life of the virus on various surfaces, and those are dramatically shorter.

This piece provides necessary interpretation of the raw data:

Opinion | Don’t panic about shopping, getting delivery or accepting packages

I've been treating the isolation of potentially contaminated objects for a period of time, during which they are not touched by anyone, as a legitimate way to render the potential viral doses harmless.

If I drive to a store, pick up groceries, and then know I will not need to touch the car for a couple of days, I see no need to run around sanitizing handles or worrying about fabric contamination. That includes food provisions that can sit untouched in a cupboard or in the fridge for a few days. Of course, that works better for those of us living alone than for folks that cohabitate.
Half life does not mean that the virus is not infectious. Half life just means that you have half of the amount of the virus than what you had before. Of course you can make your own judgement on the NJEM article but Washington post is not exactly quality evidence.
Someone forwarded me the same article a couple days ago - “Don’t panic about shopping, getting delivery or accepting packages.”

It left me scratching my head. Basically it said that we need to relax, because the only way to get sick from a package on our doorstop is that: the package delivery driver is sick AND we don’t leave that package sitting for many hours/days AND we touch the same spot that the package deliverer touched AND THEN we touch our face.

Their whole argument is that multiple pieces have to fall into place in order for someone to get sick from a package. But the problem is that all those things have a fairly decent likelihood of happening. That argument only works if a series of events involves multiple low-probability events strung together. In my opinion, it does not.

Seal the Deal
Posts: 108
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by Seal the Deal » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:46 pm

The safest, and not coincidentally healthiest, way to get food is the same as it has always been. Either grow it yourself or be able to shake the hand (well, not right now) of the person who grew it.

So if you can, plant a garden and buy directly from a farmer. I planted a 16 x 4 foot raised bed with cool season veg. last week and have a large garden plot ready to go when the weather warms up. Will have a 1/2 hog delivered next week, considering a 1/4 cow if space remains in the deep freeze. If a CSA is an option this year will definitely do that.

By doing all of this, trips to the grocery store are far reduced.

Grt2bOutdoors
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Location: New York

Re: Safest way to get food

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:06 pm

I go to the store, typically when it opens.
I bring a wipe with me or I use the store provided wipe and thoroughly clean the cart. I started wearing a mask because the level of ignorance I see in the store is just so :annoyed aggravating. They don’t practice social distancing even when the floors are clearly marked in 6 feet increments. I have a shopping list - if it’s not on the list or in stock I move on, the less lingering the better. I use hand sanitizer when I get back to the car and I wipe the handles of the car down.

I take off my shoes before entering the house and I wash my hands for 20 seconds.

I wash produce, I don’t wipe canned products or frozen products. I will wipe packaged foods in plastic, but not cardboard boxes (how can you do that without it ruining the packaging?).
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

Cycle
Posts: 1653
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Location: Minneapolis

Re: Safest way to get food

Post by Cycle » Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:29 pm

I shop in a target grocery store that is incredibly busy and used by a lot of people that do not practice social distancing and use the local shelters. I've gone twice in the last three weeks.

I wore nitrile gloves and a p100 respirator mask inside, and I work with cadavers at work so I know how to use the gloves

Wife had a pounding headache for a couple days and a light cough. I've recently developed a light cough. Unfortunately there's no way to tell in our state if we have covid bc no one is getting tested.

My wife's co-worker was presumptive positive and did not quarantine in her house, as her doctor didn't tell her to. She was told there are no test kits available here unless u go to the ER with advanced pneumonia and need to be admitted. Her husband who has no symptoms is still going to work with the national guard, where he is presumptively spreading it to the hundreds of people working there.

Hard to say where we got our current symptoms, but I'd avoid going inside any grocery stores and let the groceries quarantine for 3 days.

I've started wearing a cloth buff over my face, as many others have as well.
Last edited by Cycle on Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Never look back unless you are planning to go that way

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iceport
Posts: 4655
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by iceport » Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:31 pm

absolute zero wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:29 pm
Blue456 wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:13 pm
iceport wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:42 pm
Blue456 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:29 pm
pablolo wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:28 pm
What do you feel is the safest way to get food? Online shopping and pick up in the parking lot with the food delivered on top of the car or delivered to your house or personal shopping in grocery stores?
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/N ... lB_article

From the above article it seems like virus can stay active on plastic for about 3 days, stainless steal also 3 days and cardboard box for about 2 days. Make your own conclusions about the chance of someone contaminating your food at the store and act accordingly.
Yes, but that very same summary provides additional information on the estimated half-life of the virus on various surfaces, and those are dramatically shorter.

This piece provides necessary interpretation of the raw data:

Opinion | Don’t panic about shopping, getting delivery or accepting packages

I've been treating the isolation of potentially contaminated objects for a period of time, during which they are not touched by anyone, as a legitimate way to render the potential viral doses harmless.

If I drive to a store, pick up groceries, and then know I will not need to touch the car for a couple of days, I see no need to run around sanitizing handles or worrying about fabric contamination. That includes food provisions that can sit untouched in a cupboard or in the fridge for a few days. Of course, that works better for those of us living alone than for folks that cohabitate.
Half life does not mean that the virus is not infectious. Half life just means that you have half of the amount of the virus than what you had before. Of course you can make your own judgement on the NJEM article but Washington post is not exactly quality evidence.
Someone forwarded me the same article a couple days ago - “Don’t panic about shopping, getting delivery or accepting packages.”

It left me scratching my head. Basically it said that we need to relax, because the only way to get sick from a package on our doorstop is that: the package delivery driver is sick AND we don’t leave that package sitting for many hours/days AND we touch the same spot that the package deliverer touched AND THEN we touch our face.

Their whole argument is that multiple pieces have to fall into place in order for someone to get sick from a package. But the problem is that all those things have a fairly decent likelihood of happening. That argument only works if a series of events involves multiple low-probability events strung together. In my opinion, it does not.
Just coincidentally, Dr. Anthony Fauci made very similar assertions in an extended interview tonight — with some even shorter time periods that he considers the virus remains a risk on objects.

https://youtu.be/CXjRfBa0pYE?t=472

(Cued up at about 7:55, topic runs to about 10:05)

You are free to ignore the data and professionals.
"Discipline matters more than allocation.” ─William Bernstein

absolute zero
Posts: 315
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:59 pm

Re: Safest way to get food

Post by absolute zero » Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:55 pm

iceport wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:31 pm
absolute zero wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:29 pm
Blue456 wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:13 pm
iceport wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:42 pm
Blue456 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:29 pm


https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/N ... lB_article

From the above article it seems like virus can stay active on plastic for about 3 days, stainless steal also 3 days and cardboard box for about 2 days. Make your own conclusions about the chance of someone contaminating your food at the store and act accordingly.
Yes, but that very same summary provides additional information on the estimated half-life of the virus on various surfaces, and those are dramatically shorter.

This piece provides necessary interpretation of the raw data:

Opinion | Don’t panic about shopping, getting delivery or accepting packages

I've been treating the isolation of potentially contaminated objects for a period of time, during which they are not touched by anyone, as a legitimate way to render the potential viral doses harmless.

If I drive to a store, pick up groceries, and then know I will not need to touch the car for a couple of days, I see no need to run around sanitizing handles or worrying about fabric contamination. That includes food provisions that can sit untouched in a cupboard or in the fridge for a few days. Of course, that works better for those of us living alone than for folks that cohabitate.
Half life does not mean that the virus is not infectious. Half life just means that you have half of the amount of the virus than what you had before. Of course you can make your own judgement on the NJEM article but Washington post is not exactly quality evidence.
Someone forwarded me the same article a couple days ago - “Don’t panic about shopping, getting delivery or accepting packages.”

It left me scratching my head. Basically it said that we need to relax, because the only way to get sick from a package on our doorstop is that: the package delivery driver is sick AND we don’t leave that package sitting for many hours/days AND we touch the same spot that the package deliverer touched AND THEN we touch our face.

Their whole argument is that multiple pieces have to fall into place in order for someone to get sick from a package. But the problem is that all those things have a fairly decent likelihood of happening. That argument only works if a series of events involves multiple low-probability events strung together. In my opinion, it does not.
Just coincidentally, Dr. Anthony Fauci made very similar assertions in an extended interview tonight — with some even shorter time periods that he considers the virus remains a risk on objects.

https://youtu.be/CXjRfBa0pYE?t=472

(Cued up at about 7:55, topic runs to about 10:05)

You are free to ignore the data and professionals.
<< You are free to ignore the data and professionals.>>

I’m ignoring data and professionals?? :confused

I’m not refuting the claim by experts (Fauci included) that while the virus is detectable for up to 3 days, it’s no longer viable after that period. I’m saying that it’s not that unlikely to pick up a package off the front door within hours or even minutes of it being delivered. Most of us are, after all, home all day.

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iceport
Posts: 4655
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by iceport » Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:13 pm

absolute zero wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:55 pm
<< You are free to ignore the data and professionals.>>

I’m ignoring data and professionals?? :confused

I’m not refuting the claim by experts (Fauci included) that while the virus is detectable for up to 3 days, it’s no longer viable after that period. I’m saying that it’s not that unlikely to pick up a package off the front door within hours or even minutes of it being delivered. Most of us are, after all, home all day.
Okay, I see your perspective now. I guess the whole point was that, once you know the links in the pathway that have to all be in place to cause infection, you can figure out multiple ways to disrupt that pathway. The point wasn't to relax and go about business as usual. Just don't panic, use your head, and there are reasonable ways to control the risk.
"Discipline matters more than allocation.” ─William Bernstein

aqan
Posts: 510
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:07 am

Re: Safest way to get food

Post by aqan » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:33 am

JoMoney wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:35 pm
Delivered to your house. Auto accidents will top most other hazards.
Agree with this. Just ordered from Costco and doubled the tip for the shopper. God bless him/her.

aqan
Posts: 510
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:07 am

Re: Safest way to get food

Post by aqan » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:35 am

Cheez-It Guy wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:07 am
Grow it yourself.
How about milk?

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Cheez-It Guy
Posts: 921
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by Cheez-It Guy » Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:57 am

aqan wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:35 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:07 am
Grow it yourself.
How about milk?
Cow's milk is not a requirement to sustain adult humans. Could try powdered milk and reconstitute it.

BrownEyedGirl_27
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:37 pm

Re: Safest way to get food

Post by BrownEyedGirl_27 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:16 am

If you’re shopping in a grocery store wear a mask. My friend made our family cotton fabric masks. After we go out we’ll wash them in hot soapy water when we get home.
"Your mind has a mind of its own. At the very moment when you are most convinced of your own rationality, you may be feeling rather than thinking your way toward a decision.” | Jason Zweig

BrownEyedGirl_27
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:37 pm

Re: Safest way to get food

Post by BrownEyedGirl_27 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:17 am

Cheez-It Guy wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:57 am
aqan wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:35 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:07 am
Grow it yourself.
How about milk?
Cow's milk is not a requirement to sustain adult humans. Could try powdered milk and reconstitute it.
Had powdered milk as a kid. It was nasty! Only whole milk for us (we make yogurt).
"Your mind has a mind of its own. At the very moment when you are most convinced of your own rationality, you may be feeling rather than thinking your way toward a decision.” | Jason Zweig

halfnine
Posts: 1223
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by halfnine » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:31 am

justbpatient wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:27 am

....UV light has been shown to damage masks:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4699414/....
Thank for this. I have a UV-C light but to use it to sterilize a mask I would likely have to levitate the mask within a box and reflect the light (aluminum?) around the box to ensure the light contacts all surfaces. I had come to the conclusion that it was likely more trouble than it was worth and impossible to quantify the effectiveness of a jury-rigged system anyway.

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iceport
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Re: Safest way to get food

Post by iceport » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:36 am

justbpatient wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:27 am
Also - why are people wearing gloves? Is there concern for the virus going through intact skin? Or do you have broken skin such as cuts and scrapes? Or it is just help to remind you not to touch your face? Masks have some evidence they may reduce spread - gloves I’m not so sure. Either way washing your hands and not touching your face are good things to do, gloves or not.
Good point. Probably the greatest value is to make one think twice about touching their face. But even for that, how long will the effect last, once wearing a glove becomes normal. And viruses live longer on, and transfer easier from, rubber gloves. They'll get just as contaminated as your hands.

A pet peeve is used to be watching a Subway employee put down their mop then step up to the counter to make your sandwich — all while wearing the same pair of rubber gloves. Sure, it looks like they're being sanitary, but who are they really fooling?
"Discipline matters more than allocation.” ─William Bernstein

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