Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

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bertilak
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by bertilak »

ssenneff wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:09 pm I will never use a bank safe deposit box again. An employee of mine from India lost all of his wife's jewelry by their safe deposit box being broken into. The were family heirloom's that are irreplaceable. The bank accepts no responsibility. Apparently there are no regulations on them and the contracts keep the banks protected from liability. Read this: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/19/busi ... theft.html

I would rather have my own safe and be in control and responsible for my things which I do.
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falconsfan
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by falconsfan »

Agree with Liberty safes. The basement is a great location. A competent safe moving company will have no problem getting it down there. Bolted to the floor in a corner (so the door cannot be pried) will give you great protection. If flooding is a concern, place the papers on a higher shelf.
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by Pu239 »

ssenneff wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:09 pm I will never use a bank safe deposit box again. An employee of mine from India lost all of his wife's jewelry by their safe deposit box being broken into. The were family heirloom's that are irreplaceable. The bank accepts no responsibility. Apparently there are no regulations on them and the contracts keep the banks protected from liability. Read this: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/19/busi ... theft.html

I would rather have my own safe and be in control and responsible for my things which I do.
I'm willing to bet that home-based safe thefts are more common than bank safe deposit box thefts. For maximum protection of valuables like jewelry, insurance, whether for a home safe or bank box, is mandatory.
Between the idea And the reality...Between the motion And the act...Falls the Shadow - T. S. Eliot
SpinPsycholer
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by SpinPsycholer »

Pu239 wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:16 pm I'm willing to bet that home-based safe thefts are more common than bank safe deposit box thefts.
I doubt there are any statistics. I don't know anyone who has had a theft of a home safe (not saying it doesn't happen), but do know someone who lost what was in a safe deposit box.

In the case of a safe deposit box, you can never be sure your stuff is still there unless you check it on a very regular basis. In the case of my employee, he checked the safe deposit box one day and it was empty. It had been several months since he had been there last, so he has no idea when the theft actually took place. With a home safe, I will know if there is a problem. Also, I can acquire a good one and secure it according to my risk level. If I was really paranoid I could use my home monitoring service to monitor, have a security camera view it, etc. I doubt a bank will guarantee any monitoring. caveat emptor.
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queso
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by queso »

I am not a safe expert, but with regard to placement one thing I have heard from several people far more knowledgeable than I is to avoid garage placement because someone can open your garage door, throw a chain around the safe and use a truck to pull it loose from the bolts/mounts. Then again, I guess they could drive through your house with a bulldozer so it really depends how far down the rabbit hole you want to go with this. :happy
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Doom&Gloom
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by Doom&Gloom »

Sandtrap wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:33 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:11 pm That’s a very, very large and heavy home safe. I’ll ask the question...do you really need anything that large? Most documents are backed up online now, and the really important stuff should be in a bank safe deposit box or private vault anyway.

Regardless, go to an actual safe dealer. It’s an education. And let them install it. There’s no way you want to do that yourself.
Good idea.
Yes. I know quite a few folks in my area who have had them professionally delivered (forklift) and installed.

We have about 5 standard size office boxes that would have to go in it, a box of backup hard drives, bunch of small stuffs. . .
. . . .
an assortment of long and short and small firearms, gold bricks, bundled cash, . . . (kidding! :oops:

j :happy
Somebody has a leak in their security. I would not want anybody to know I had a safe, but a few friends have shown me or told me about theirs. Go figure. I guess I have an honest face.

And I certainly would not want a forklift delivery if the truck had a safe company's logo on the side! OTOH I wish all of my neighbors would have a safe delivered in that manner :twisted:
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by Point »

One thing to understand is safes have different levels of protecting against fire. My son-in-law works for Edison and was in the SoCal fire areas restoring utility poles and cables before the embers were out. He said there were very few safes that made it through the fires. Do the research.

Deansafes.com has some pretty good information on their site by category, with good explanations about the different options.
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by Pu239 »

ssenneff wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:53 pm
In the case of a safe deposit box, you can never be sure your stuff is still there unless you check it on a very regular basis. In the case of my employee, he checked the safe deposit box one day and it was empty. It had been several months since he had been there last, so he has no idea when the theft actually took place. With a home safe, I will know if there is a problem. Also, I can acquire a good one and secure it according to my risk level. If I was really paranoid I could use my home monitoring service to monitor, have a security camera view it, etc. I doubt a bank will guarantee any monitoring. caveat emptor.
I am curious about the circumstances involving your employee's theft. Was the box in India or the US? Did the bank investigate their employees for possible theft? How was the box accessed? I decided to keep my bank boxes after speaking with a safe salesman at a key and lock shop. There were simply too many issues of owning a home-based safe that I didn't want to deal with.
Between the idea And the reality...Between the motion And the act...Falls the Shadow - T. S. Eliot
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by hudson »

Sandtrap,

I personally sold down or got rid of most valuables, so I don't need a safe. The few "valuables" left would be covered by insurance. Key papers are in a safe deposit box. None of that likely fits you.

I think you said that you had lots of papers/records...maybe a fire resistant filing cabinet for those. Then work on some kind of safe....or maybe scan them all. Somebody above probably said something about the equivalent of a safe deposit box.

Maybe consult with a professional that installs these for banks or businesses...maybe get 3 quotes. If nothing else, you'll learn something.

The safe that survived your neighbors fire...look hard at that unless it was in a lucky location.
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by andypanda »

I've had a Liberty Lincoln model gun "safe" for 20 years. It keeps the grandkids, friends and honest people away from the contents.

Two or three grand buys you a Residential Security Container large enough to hold a number of rifles and shotguns, not a safe. Google RSC.

Consider keeping a large unopened bottle of strong liquor on top of the safe in plain view. And, oh, maybe $400 under the bottle. The local meth or crack addict will probably take the easy pickings and run and not scratch up the pretty paint job on the safe.

www.libertysafe.com/ul-listed-for-secur ... -p-54.html

"Liberty passed! Liberty Safes that currently bear the UL symbol of security protected against forced entry and received UL's Residential Security Container (RSC) certification: 8M10."

"UL has the advantage of opening the safe door and removing the door panel to analyse the safe's security features and positions. Once they develop a strategic plan with measurements to more accurately attack the safe, they close the door and have 5 minutes to break-in. This 5 minute test is a timed test. If they take a break, the clock stops and restarts again once they begin the onslaught.

If UL cannot breach the security of the safe within the time period, that series of safes receive UL's Residential Security Container (RSC) certification and accompanying certification number. "
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by bertilak »

ssenneff wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:53 pm
Pu239 wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:16 pm I'm willing to bet that home-based safe thefts are more common than bank safe deposit box thefts.
I don't know anyone who has had a theft of a home safe (not saying it doesn't happen), but do know someone who lost what was in a safe deposit box.
Back in the 1980s my safe (about 200 pounds) was stolen from my home. I had this image in my mind of a burglar with a racoon-like mask and a bag over his shoulder. Turns out there were two of them. They tipped the safe end-over-end, down a flight of stairs (taking out 2 or 3 steps), across my hardwood floor (requiring major repair) and out the back door. They somehow got it into the trunk of their car. The driveway was a few feet below the level of the lawn at one point so that probably helped.

Boy was I angry! :annoyed
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by bertilak »

Doom&Gloom wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:06 pm... a few friends have shown me or told me about theirs. Go figure. I guess I have an honest face.
Don't show them your avatar!
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softwaregeek
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by softwaregeek »

To be clear, all safes are "Fire Resistant". A big enough fire will take out anything short of a huge vault. Something like a California wildfire isn't going to be survivable for anything you can fit in your house.
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by BuddyJet »

For fire rating explanation:

http://www.brownsafe.com/categories/faq ... ction.html

For TL, see

https://www.supplychimp.com/go/info/TL- ... ained.html

Also, the time ratings are based on pros with complete knowledge of the safe and proper tools (not torches unless TRTL rated)

While it may only take a pro 15 minutes to crack a TL-15 safe, your average junkie couldn’t in 15 years.

That said, a safe dealer I visited had a hall of shame where cheap, broken into safes were displayed as cautionary tales. The dealer got these when he sold a better replacement.

Along with the big safe, consider a small TL-15 with electronic lock in a master closet for easy jewelry access. If it is easy, it will be used. If it takes a walk to the garage, probably not.

All security can be broken, I just want the skill level required to be more than the value of my stuff. Crooks with that much smarts will pick easier, more valuable targets.

Also buy on ratings and not on pretty. One safe I saw was a $10k safe with $90k of pretty around it. Ostrich drawers, beautiful lacquer paint, gold hardware and such.

Also, better safe companies deliver in trucks marked “moving” with the safe blanket wrapped.
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by cashboy »

Installation:
I guess this is something you buy and have installed by professionals. Correct?

QUESTIONS:
1
What brand, size, type (are there different types?), and why?
2
Where is the best location for something like this?
3
Is it better to have one huge/large size safe in the garage or shop, etc,. . .
or a couple or several smaller ones in the home?
4
How do you keep a "safe" . . . safe?
(seems like a redundant question. . . . double entendre. . . . ?
5
What have you done or how would you do this?
6
I've seen electronic locks on safes. Is this something that can go wrong?
7
What happens if you forget the combination or it gets "keyed" in wrong ?



once you buy it from a local dealer they will deliver it to where ever in the house you want it, and they can bolt it down for you. there are usually additional charges depending upon how many stairs to climb and for bolting down.


1. Ft Knox Safes. they are true 'safes' not 'security containers' (as most are). high ratings for fire, etc.
https://www.ftknox.com/
https://www.ftknox.com/vault-builder-2/
Guardian and Titan are the higher end.

note: i do not work for Ft Knox.


they also make doors for safe rooms or gun rooms.

2. somewhere out of sight so people do not know you have one. like a closet. best to keep secret.

3. a big one that can't be carried/dragged away

4. have it bolted down and out of sight (see #2). keep combination secret.

5. i bought a Ft Knox and have it in a closet.

6. usually not (if american made), but you can get safes with both electronic and dial. i have dial only and am happy with it.

7. for electronic it varies; sometimes won't let you try again for a period of time. for dial, nothing.
forgetting the combination IS A PROBLEM. keep a copy of it somewhere safe; you can 'scramble it' (ex: 47 becomes 74 or 57) so only you know it is a combination.




advice is to get a bigger safe than you think you need - they fill up fast. once you have a true safe you will wonder how you lived without one. options like inside lights that come on when you open the door and thicker metal on the body and door upgrades are worth considering.
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by andypanda »

"1. Ft Knox Safes. they are true 'safes' not 'security containers' (as most are). high ratings for fire, etc.
https://www.ftknox.com
https://www.ftknox.com/vault-builder-2/
Guardian and Titan are the higher end."

______________

They are RSC rated security containers. Here's a $7599 Titan.

www.deansafe.com/collections/fort-knox- ... -gun-safes

"Burglary Rating: UL RSC Security Container"
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by cashboy »

andypanda wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:37 pm "1. Ft Knox Safes. they are true 'safes' not 'security containers' (as most are). high ratings for fire, etc.
https://www.ftknox.com
https://www.ftknox.com/vault-builder-2/
Guardian and Titan are the higher end."

______________

They are RSC rated security containers. Here's a $7599 Titan.

www.deansafe.com/collections/fort-knox- ... -gun-safes

"Burglary Rating: UL RSC Security Container"
i was not referring to the UL rating.
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by andypanda »

"i was not referring to the UL rating."

The UL rating is what makes a safe a safe. Or an RSC.
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by Sandtrap »

hudson wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:44 pm Sandtrap,

I personally sold down or got rid of most valuables, so I don't need a safe. The few "valuables" left would be covered by insurance. Key papers are in a safe deposit box. None of that likely fits you.

I think you said that you had lots of papers/records...maybe a fire resistant filing cabinet for those. Then work on some kind of safe....or maybe scan them all. Somebody above probably said something about the equivalent of a safe deposit box.

Maybe consult with a professional that installs these for banks or businesses...maybe get 3 quotes. If nothing else, you'll learn something.

The safe that survived your neighbors fire...look hard at that unless it was in a lucky location.
Great ideas.
Thanks for the help.
j :happy
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by Sandtrap »

cashboy wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:12 pm
andypanda wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:37 pm "1. Ft Knox Safes. they are true 'safes' not 'security containers' (as most are). high ratings for fire, etc.
https://www.ftknox.com
https://www.ftknox.com/vault-builder-2/
Guardian and Titan are the higher end."

______________

They are RSC rated security containers. Here's a $7599 Titan.

www.deansafe.com/collections/fort-knox- ... -gun-safes

You guys are great. I did not know all this.
Thanks a lot!
j :happy
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by cashboy »

andypanda wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:03 pm "i was not referring to the UL rating."

The UL rating is what makes a safe a safe. Or an RSC.
the words 'safe' or 'security containers' are general terms that can mean different things to different people - not just what UL ratings might mean.

my intention in replying to the OP was to try and help him with information that he can use, along with the other replies, to decide what he might do.

my intention was not to force my belief of what i meant by the words 'safe' or 'security containers' on others, nor was it to engage in debate with other posters who have their own view of how these words should be used.

if you feel that i have violated the sanctity of the words 'safe' and 'storage containers', based upon your view and use of these words, then you have done your duty and pointed that out. :)
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by willthrill81 »

The most secure safes 'plausible' safes for residential homes that I've seen are floor safes. They are encased in the concrete foundation of the property and can be installed after construction. They are easily hidden under shelving, appliances, carpet, etc. so that a thief would be very unlikely to even discover its presence, let alone getting into it. They are very fire resistant. Water will get inside in the event of a flood, so placing the contents inside waterproof containers is necessary.

Image
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by GeoffD »

bertilak wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:05 pm
ssenneff wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:53 pm
Pu239 wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:16 pm I'm willing to bet that home-based safe thefts are more common than bank safe deposit box thefts.
I don't know anyone who has had a theft of a home safe (not saying it doesn't happen), but do know someone who lost what was in a safe deposit box.
Back in the 1980s my safe (about 200 pounds) was stolen from my home. I had this image in my mind of a burglar with a racoon-like mask and a bag over his shoulder. Turns out there were two of them. They tipped the safe end-over-end, down a flight of stairs (taking out 2 or 3 steps), across my hardwood floor (requiring major repair) and out the back door. They somehow got it into the trunk of their car. The driveway was a few feet below the level of the lawn at one point so that probably helped.

Boy was I angry! :annoyed
Which is why my documents are in a fire box on the floor of a closet with the key in it. There’s nothing of value in it for a thief.
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by Sandtrap »

willthrill81 wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:35 pm The most secure safes 'plausible' safes for residential homes that I've seen are floor safes. They are encased in the concrete foundation of the property and can be installed after construction. They are easily hidden under shelving, appliances, carpet, etc. so that a thief would be very unlikely to even discover its presence, let alone getting into it. They are very fire resistant. Water will get inside in the event of a flood, so placing the contents inside waterproof containers is necessary.

Image
Great idea!
However, I would need a floor safe large enough to fall in. . . . . . thinking. . . . :confused

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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by Sandtrap »

bertilak wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:05 pm
ssenneff wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:53 pm
Pu239 wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:16 pm I'm willing to bet that home-based safe thefts are more common than bank safe deposit box thefts.
I don't know anyone who has had a theft of a home safe (not saying it doesn't happen), but do know someone who lost what was in a safe deposit box.
Back in the 1980s my safe (about 200 pounds) was stolen from my home. I had this image in my mind of a burglar with a racoon-like mask and a bag over his shoulder. Turns out there were two of them. They tipped the safe end-over-end, down a flight of stairs (taking out 2 or 3 steps), across my hardwood floor (requiring major repair) and out the back door. They somehow got it into the trunk of their car. The driveway was a few feet below the level of the lawn at one point so that probably helped.

Boy was I angry! :annoyed
Somehow this image has to have the background music of a Loony Tunes Cartoon from the 50 - 60's.
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motivated fellows indeed!

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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by willthrill81 »

Sandtrap wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:22 am Great idea!
However, I would need a floor safe large enough to fall in. . . . . . thinking. . . . :confused

j :happy
If you're trying to store long guns, then a floor safe isn't really an option (although you could theoretically have one that is long horizontally). But why not diversify and have a gun safe and another, very well hidden floor safe for other, smaller valuables?
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by cashboy »

OP.

i think you live in arizona?

how about something like this:

https://www.businessinsider.com/two-dec ... ona-2020-1
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by stumpy »

I have a Liberty in the garage. It is 72x48x30. At times it does not seem to be big enough. Get one bigger than u think u need. Mine is set up so u cannot see it. I have it covered and shelving perpendicular to it and roll away shelving in front. No way to see it from outside garage. My neighbor had one u could see from the street and being a sheriff SWAT guy he had 2 automatic weapons in it. And his was not bolted down. not a good idea. Pay the money to have it installed. They will bolt it down. It would take a forklift to remove it then. They r a pain to move. We moved my sons twice. Took 4 guys.
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by bertilak »

stumpy wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:01 pm I have a Liberty in the garage. It is 72x48x30. At times it does not seem to be big enough. Get one bigger than u think u need. Mine is set up so u cannot see it. I have it covered and shelving perpendicular to it and roll away shelving in front. No way to see it from outside garage. My neighbor had one u could see from the street and being a sheriff SWAT guy he had 2 automatic weapons in it. And his was not bolted down. not a good idea. Pay the money to have it installed. They will bolt it down. It would take a forklift to remove it then. They r a pain to move. We moved my sons twice. Took 4 guys.
If it's an organized raid, they will bring 4 (or 5) guys.
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by somber »

Clark Howard recommends against using bank safe deposit boxes:

https://clark.com/personal-finance-cred ... posit-box/

They are basically unregulated. If something goes missing, the bank is not even required to apologize.
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by Pu239 »

somber wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:09 pm Clark Howard recommends against using bank safe deposit boxes:

https://clark.com/personal-finance-cred ... posit-box/

They are basically unregulated. If something goes missing, the bank is not even required to apologize.
After reading the article, I don't think Clark Howard knows enough to give advice on the matter. If something goes missing from a home safe, is the manufacturer regulated and required to apologize? Insurance of contents for both home safes and bank boxes is required for compensation. I'd pick a bank box over a $400 home safe (Clark's recommendation) any day.
Between the idea And the reality...Between the motion And the act...Falls the Shadow - T. S. Eliot
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by Sandtrap »

cashboy wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:10 pm OP.

i think you live in arizona?

how about something like this:

https://www.businessinsider.com/two-dec ... ona-2020-1
A decommissioned nuclear missile silo with underground facilities would be very high on my "gotta have" list because it's so high on the "cool" factor.

2nd place would be a productive gold mine.

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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by Sandtrap »

stumpy wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:01 pm I have a Liberty in the garage. It is 72x48x30. At times it does not seem to be big enough. Get one bigger than u think u need. Mine is set up so u cannot see it. I have it covered and shelving perpendicular to it and roll away shelving in front. No way to see it from outside garage. My neighbor had one u could see from the street and being a sheriff SWAT guy he had 2 automatic weapons in it. And his was not bolted down. not a good idea. Pay the money to have it installed. They will bolt it down. It would take a forklift to remove it then. They r a pain to move. We moved my sons twice. Took 4 guys.
A lot of folks in my region have these things.
I was thinking of covering it up with a garden shed looking thing with tools like shovels, etc, hanging on racks on the walls. Who would look in a garden shed vs the home?

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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by dknightd »

I like the concept of an off site backup. So I have a bank safe deposit box. YMMV
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by willthrill81 »

Sandtrap wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:05 pm
cashboy wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:10 pm OP.

i think you live in arizona?

how about something like this:

https://www.businessinsider.com/two-dec ... ona-2020-1
A decommissioned nuclear missile silo with underground facilities would be very high on my "gotta have" list because it's so high on the "cool" factor.
I knew of a guy in North Dakota who bought one very cheaply. He only used a small portion of it.

Two decommissioned silos are currently for sale in Arizona. It should be nice and cool down there all year long.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by Sandtrap »

willthrill81 wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:05 pm
Sandtrap wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:05 pm
cashboy wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:10 pm OP.

i think you live in arizona?

how about something like this:

https://www.businessinsider.com/two-dec ... ona-2020-1
A decommissioned nuclear missile silo with underground facilities would be very high on my "gotta have" list because it's so high on the "cool" factor.
I knew of a guy in North Dakota who bought one very cheaply. He only used a small portion of it.

Two decommissioned silos are currently for sale in Arizona. It should be nice and cool down there all year long.
Reminds me of that 1999 comedy movie, "Blast From the Past" where an American family moves underground during the Cuban Missle Crisis and 35 years later the son is sent above to explore the modern world.
Movie Trailer: "Blast From the Past"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhMQOb0tEmI
Christopher Walken is eccentrically hilarious as usual.
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by willthrill81 »

Sandtrap wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:21 am
willthrill81 wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:05 pm
Sandtrap wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:05 pm
cashboy wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:10 pm OP.

i think you live in arizona?

how about something like this:

https://www.businessinsider.com/two-dec ... ona-2020-1
A decommissioned nuclear missile silo with underground facilities would be very high on my "gotta have" list because it's so high on the "cool" factor.
I knew of a guy in North Dakota who bought one very cheaply. He only used a small portion of it.

Two decommissioned silos are currently for sale in Arizona. It should be nice and cool down there all year long.
Reminds me of that 1999 comedy movie, "Blast From the Past" where an American family moves underground during the Cuban Missle Crisis and 35 years later the son is sent above to explore the modern world.
Movie Trailer: "Blast From the Past"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhMQOb0tEmI
Christopher Walken is eccentrically hilarious as usual.
Yeah, I thought about that movie as well. It was probably the last one I remember mentioning stock certificates.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by oldfort »

BuddyJet wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:48 pm For fire rating explanation:

http://www.brownsafe.com/categories/faq ... ction.html

For TL, see

https://www.supplychimp.com/go/info/TL- ... ained.html

Also, the time ratings are based on pros with complete knowledge of the safe and proper tools (not torches unless TRTL rated)

While it may only take a pro 15 minutes to crack a TL-15 safe, your average junkie couldn’t in 15 years.
This vastly overstates the difficulty of breaking into a tl-15 safe. It doesn’t take much skill to saw through a safe with an angle grinder and the right blade. Even a junkie could brute force their way into a tl-15 with the right tools.
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by oldfort »

ssenneff wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:53 pm
Pu239 wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:16 pm I'm willing to bet that home-based safe thefts are more common than bank safe deposit box thefts.
I doubt there are any statistics. I don't know anyone who has had a theft of a home safe (not saying it doesn't happen), but do know someone who lost what was in a safe deposit box.

There are some statistics in the NYtimes article quoted above.
But such capers are rare. Of the 19,000 bank robberies reported to the F.B.I. in the last five years, only 44 involved safe-deposit heists.
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by LFS1234 »

oldfort wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:53 pm
BuddyJet wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:48 pm For fire rating explanation:

http://www.brownsafe.com/categories/faq ... ction.html

For TL, see

https://www.supplychimp.com/go/info/TL- ... ained.html

Also, the time ratings are based on pros with complete knowledge of the safe and proper tools (not torches unless TRTL rated)

While it may only take a pro 15 minutes to crack a TL-15 safe, your average junkie couldn’t in 15 years.
This vastly overstates the difficulty of breaking into a tl-15 safe. It doesn’t take much skill to saw through a safe with an angle grinder and the right blade. Even a junkie could brute force their way into a tl-15 with the right tools.
Unfortunately, that supplychimp site isn't very good. Here is a better explanation of what a TL-rated safe is:

https://fortifiedestate.com/tl-safes/

From the above: "This level of safe security is often the only option for those looking secure high value goods, from $100,000 to over $1,000,000. Not only does a TL rated safe provide the ultimate peace of mind, but it is the only option to satisfying insurance requirements for high level products, such as jewelry."

The TL-15 or TL-30 ratings indicate that two extremely competent safecrackers with appropriate tools and intimate knowledge of the specific safe are not able to open it in the 15 or 30 minutes, respectively. This does not imply that they are able to open it in 16 or 31 minutes, respectively; or in any time even remotely close to that. Also from the above-referenced site:

"The team operating the break-in tests are not just strong men. These are experienced engineers. The safe cracking team receives the safe’s blueprints in advance to find weak points, and will even disassemble the safe in advance of the attack to understand any potential flaws."

I have had a conversation with a highly specialized locksmith who is able to crack TL-rated safes. He would allocate the better part of a day to perform such a job - I didn't get the impression that he'd expect to be done within two hours. Any misstep could trigger the built-in relockers which would greatly increase the time required to open the safe. Anyone with the impression that a run-of-the-mill burglar with a drill and a grinder could open such a safe within a few hours is misinformed.

In small markets where there is no local dealer who is intimately knowledgeable about TL-rated safes, a good way to find an appropriate dealer would be by talking to jewelry store owners to see who and what they use. In order to be able to obtain appropriate insurance, jewelers have no choice other than to use appropriately rated safes. Insurance agents familiar with jewelers should also be knowledgeable in this area.

Regarding safe deposit boxes: I have on more than one occasion received a letter from a bank indicating that they are shutting down a branch and that all safe deposit box customers must come in to empty their boxes within a relatively short period of time. This might be ok if the bank is down the street and the notification doesn't get lost. If you don't receive the notification or if are unable to get to the bank within the allocated time, then you have a problem. I would prefer to have any safe deposit box only at facilities that are close to me geographically as well as likely to stay put for the foreseeable future. Many bank branches don't meet this test. Centrally located main branches in important cities might meet this test. Additionally, I would prefer not to keep anything that might be needed on short notice (eg. passports) anywhere where I couldn't get to them within minutes at any time of the day or night.
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by oldfort »

LFS1234 wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:03 am ...

Unfortunately, that supplychimp site isn't very good. Here is a better explanation of what a TL-rated safe is:

https://fortifiedestate.com/tl-safes/

From the above: "This level of safe security is often the only option for those looking secure high value goods, from $100,000 to over $1,000,000. Not only does a TL rated safe provide the ultimate peace of mind, but it is the only option to satisfying insurance requirements for high level products, such as jewelry."

The TL-15 or TL-30 ratings indicate that two extremely competent safecrackers with appropriate tools and intimate knowledge of the specific safe are not able to open it in the 15 or 30 minutes, respectively. This does not imply that they are able to open it in 16 or 31 minutes, respectively; or in any time even remotely close to that. Also from the above-referenced site:

"The team operating the break-in tests are not just strong men. These are experienced engineers. The safe cracking team receives the safe’s blueprints in advance to find weak points, and will even disassemble the safe in advance of the attack to understand any potential flaws."

I have had a conversation with a highly specialized locksmith who is able to crack TL-rated safes. He would allocate the better part of a day to perform such a job - I didn't get the impression that he'd expect to be done within two hours. Any misstep could trigger the built-in relockers which would greatly increase the time required to open the safe. Anyone with the impression that a run-of-the-mill burglar with a drill and a grinder could open such a safe within a few hours is misinformed.
The TL-15 rating means it can’t be broken into in 15 minutes using u.l approved tools. The tl-15 test is made artificially easy to pass because it doesn’t allow the full range of tools included in the tl-30 tests, such as abrasive cutting saws. Could a professional that studied the blueprints get in faster than a junkie with an angle grinder? Probably, but the difference is likely to be less than an hour. Steel and high end composites are expensive, and if a safe manufacturer puts in enough extra steel that it can standup to an angle grinder for a couple of hours, the safe would be rated at least tl-30 and not tl-15. If you have a tl-15 not tl-15x6 safe, the sides are only rated against a five minute attack. Without the x6 rating, the 15 minutes of protection only applies to the door.

Here’s a quote from a VP of engineering at a safe company that manufactures tl-30 rated safes.
There has been a few funny episodes where it was very close and the Engineer wanted to see if that few extra blows with the pick or whatever would have finished the job. As you can imagine, the best listing is one where you JUST pass the test. The idea is to minimize the cost incorporated in the design, and anything of the rating time is wasted in the competitive sense of the listing. I will say, the current X6 body ended up a large margin of over-kill, but not so much so that we needed to reduce the barrier.
Last edited by oldfort on Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:42 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Should I get a safe? What kind? What would you do? How safe is a "safe"?

Post by DigitalJanitor »

You will need a media safe if you are planning to store any kind of magnetic media or data/backup storage (disk drives, flash drives, tapes, etc). Media safes are fireproof, waterproof, steam proof, and they will keep the contents of the safe below 125 degrees F for the rated amount of time. Standard fireproof safes are not safe for data storage. A very popular media safe was https://www.safetyfile.com/products/mv1000, which was small enough to put inside of a file cabinet or a larger, plain ole fire-rated safe, but these seem to have been discontinued. Here are some other, larger examples: https://www.fireking.com/products/safes/data-safes
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