When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
User avatar
sunny_socal
Posts: 2223
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:22 pm

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by sunny_socal » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:54 am

HawkeyePierce wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:42 pm
Retired1809 wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:22 pm
My concern is simply that small towns will be further disadvantaged by not being able to offer 5G to potential employers considering building new facilities.
Why wouldn’t they just use hard lines?

5G is 99% a gimmick. The only people excited are marketers and lobbyists.
This.

And it's only going to matter in cities anyway. There will be thousands of little base stations sprinkled throughout congested city centers, subways, parking garages etc. Out in the country the congestion is not an issue.

onourway
Posts: 2491
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:39 pm

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by onourway » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:29 am

wootwoot wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:59 pm
Seasonal wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:53 pm
Lack of infrastructure and services are a major problem for rural US. Lack of hospitals and medical care generally are more of an issue than 5G. Cities are generally where the people, jobs and services are, which seems to be a self-reinforcing cycle.
This.

Not being able to stream Netflix on your phone is a 1st world problem.
“Streaming Netflix” is a euphemism for having usable broadband.

Functional broadband is decidedly NOT a 1%-er issue. The people who don’t have access are primarily in the bottom 20th percentile of the economic ladder, and reliable affordable access is pretty much a requirement for bettering their situation, or even simply getting by.

Unfortunately 5g is no answer here. If your rural area still doesn’t have functional LTE, talk to your government representatives. They are the ones who have the power to change things.

forgeblast
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:45 am
Location: PA
Contact:

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by forgeblast » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:55 am

Living rural, means dsl and no cell reception, and unfortunately frontier. I look at it as another technology that will pass us by. There is no "streaming" at our house as everything is buffered.
Its a huge technology divide between us and even 3 miles closer to town.

jucor
Posts: 242
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:35 am

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by jucor » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:01 am

May 12, 2028. That is when 5G will be available in rural U.S. Of course, urban areas will be using 7G at that time... :twisted:

User avatar
mmmodem
Posts: 2119
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 1:22 pm

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by mmmodem » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:48 am

I live in a rural community of 3500 people. The nearest town is 25000 people and you'd have to drive nearly an hour more to find another town with more people than that.

Currently, 4G is abundant in this area. The problem is time of use bandwidth. At work, there is a high enough concentration of users that between 8am-5pm, internet is slower than 2g speeds. That is, when I come into work at 7am, my speeds are 30mbits and then slows to a crawl to 0.1 mbits. And quite often falls to voice only, no data. 5G won't help us here. At least not during the work week. They need to upgrade the internet backbone that feeds internet to everyone in this town.

When will 5G be available in rural USA? Maybe sometime after 4G is available? :confused

The annoying thing is that Verizon is the most reliable service here but is also the most congested. The least reliable service Sprint actually gets the best speeds during the work day. What did Yogi Berra say? " Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."

Valuethinker
Posts: 40233
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:57 am

onourway wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:29 am
wootwoot wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:59 pm
Seasonal wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:53 pm
Lack of infrastructure and services are a major problem for rural US. Lack of hospitals and medical care generally are more of an issue than 5G. Cities are generally where the people, jobs and services are, which seems to be a self-reinforcing cycle.
This.

Not being able to stream Netflix on your phone is a 1st world problem.
“Streaming Netflix” is a euphemism for having usable broadband.

Functional broadband is decidedly NOT a 1%-er issue. The people who don’t have access are primarily in the bottom 20th percentile of the economic ladder, and reliable affordable access is pretty much a requirement for bettering their situation, or even simply getting by.

Unfortunately 5g is no answer here. If your rural area still doesn’t have functional LTE, talk to your government representatives. They are the ones who have the power to change things.
I suspect the "bottom 20%" includes an awful lot of people who live in densely populated urban areas - just by logic of sheer numbers.

And yes, they too suffer from a lack of access - can't afford the heating bill (or rent) let alone a broadband subscription.

But your point about rural dwellers is absolutely right. Encouraging centralisation in big cities is not necessarily a good economic policy - big cities have congestion issues and the high cost of housing makes it hard to workers to move to those jobs. I can't believe the 90 minute+ commutes of people in the Bay Area, greater New York or SoCal are signs of an efficient economy.

If there is not good broadband, businesses and individuals (many of whom telework) won't relocate to rural areas, and the problems of an aging population base, and depopulation, will continue.

Solutions? Over to America & Americans. I remember Roosevelt built a whole agency to electrify rural areas- put them on the grid. The US actually had quite a bit of wind power in the 1930s, providing local pumping and electricity.

It could be done again.

hicabob
Posts: 3066
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 5:35 pm
Location: cruz

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by hicabob » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:29 am

Saw this article today on Starlink. The ever optimistic Elon Musk is saying reasonable cost high speed internet service in Northern US and Canada will be available this year. Launching 60 satellites from one rocket seems impressive!
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/musk-spa ... 04253.html

Tamales
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:47 am

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by Tamales » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:59 am

To Valuethinker's point about the bottom 20%, interesting and relevant article: "Cities, not rural areas, are the real Internet deserts
The solution to the digital divide is not more broadband, but persuading non-users to join the Internet society'

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technolo ... t-deserts/

The title refers to the sheer numbers of urban folks w/out broadband outnumbering rural.

Some quotes:

The vast majority of U.S. homes without broadband service could have it today, but they don’t want it. The real problem is convincing those who are offline of the value of being part of our digital life.

The singular focus on infrastructure deployment distracts policymakers from the actual explanation for why so many Americans are still offline.

The remaining Americans who can’t get wired broadband will have new options soon. In the last several months, for example, the FCC has offered three different solutions to the rural access problem: low-orbiting satellites it argues will offer service to remote areas, merger conditions [referring to TMobile/Sprint, plus Dish] it claims will provide 99% of Americans service at four times the current minimum speed within six years, and $20 billion of public infrastructure money [RDOF, mentioned earlier in this thread] , to be spent over 10 years.

So, increasingly the digital divide isn’t about access or affordability. What then? In both private and governmental surveys, a growing number of the holdouts cite a lack of relevance. According to the most recent NTIA report, as of 2017 the percentage of respondents who say they don’t have broadband at home because they have “no need” or “no interest” reached almost 60%, nearly double the percentage who consistently gave that response from 2003 to 2009.

iamlucky13
Posts: 1887
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:28 pm
Location: Western Washington

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by iamlucky13 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:14 pm

The Washington Post does not let me read their articles. They claim I'm browsing in private mode, even when I am not and also disable ad block. Sorry if I miss a key takeaway as a result.

It seems many households that have broadband internet available, but choose not to use it. I'm guessing this is a mix of a slowly declining number of retirees who don't need to make lifestyle changes around the internet, and a growing number of younger people who solely use mobile internet, and therefore are not actually without broadband service, but rather not properly accounted for in the FCC data.

They are in a very different position from those who could benefit from broadband access, want it, and can not effectively get it.

Perhaps fixed wireless and satellite internet will be sufficient. They certainly will be an improvements. Hopefully satellite internet in particular gets cheaper. HughesNet currently charges $60/month for a 10GB data limit - enough that a major operating system update could wipe out an entire month's limit. Plus the receiver is $350.

alfaspider
Posts: 2777
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:44 pm

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by alfaspider » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:44 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:14 pm


Perhaps fixed wireless and satellite internet will be sufficient. They certainly will be an improvements. Hopefully satellite internet in particular gets cheaper. HughesNet currently charges $60/month for a 10GB data limit - enough that a major operating system update could wipe out an entire month's limit. Plus the receiver is $350.
SpaceX starlink (mentioned earlier) could be a total game changer for satellite internet, and rural internet service in general. It's likely to be ready before 5g.

Instead of a small number of very high geosynchronous satellites, Starlink uses thousands of tiny satellites in low earth orbit. As a result, the signal only has to travel a few hundred miles instead of 20,000+ miles from the satellite to you. This fixes the latency problems with satellite and you also get much better bandwidth. If they can deliver as promised, people will look at current satellite internet the way people look at dial up internet today.

There are currently ~300 of the starlink satellites in orbit with commercial service slated to start this year. However, the full system is supposed to have around 4,000 satellites, so we are some ways from a full rollout. They launch a few dozen more with every space X launch.

Tamales
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:47 am

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by Tamales » Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:46 pm

alfaspider wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:44 pm

SpaceX starlink (mentioned earlier) could be a total game changer for satellite internet, and rural internet service in general. It's likely to be ready before 5g.
Could also be an epic failure for a variety of technical and/or business reasons, and with potentially serious consequences to the orbital debris problem. They have already had failures in the propulsion systems of launched satellites, and have yet to demonstrate their ability to control the dynamics and communications links of such a massive constellation (especially the ones in VLEO where high drag is compounded by solar cycles). Also there are at least 3 other competitors with similar plans. But yes, there's an outside chance it could be a game changer too (that's what previous purveyors of satellite constellations claimed too).

re: orbital debris, see Kessler Syndrome, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmDKQz39xh8

User avatar
whodidntante
Posts: 8320
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:11 pm
Location: outside the echo chamber

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by whodidntante » Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:58 pm

Probably about the time that 7G is really common in places where people live.

User avatar
Ged
Posts: 3888
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 1:48 pm
Location: Roke

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by Ged » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:07 pm

snackdog wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:52 pm
quantAndHold wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:10 pm
snackdog wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:19 am
I have read there is concern over radiation effects and some European countries are delaying rollout.
This is fake news spread by the same fake news sources that have been affecting chaos in other parts of our public lives.
That's weird - it is in the Financial Times, a paper not known for their fake reporting, AFAIK.
Right. The Financial Times is accurately reporting that some countries are delaying roll out due to concerns in these countries that 5G may cause health effects.

They are not reporting that there are health effects. They are reporting on that there is speculation that there may be.

alfaspider
Posts: 2777
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:44 pm

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by alfaspider » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:01 pm

Tamales wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:46 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:44 pm

SpaceX starlink (mentioned earlier) could be a total game changer for satellite internet, and rural internet service in general. It's likely to be ready before 5g.
Could also be an epic failure for a variety of technical and/or business reasons, and with potentially serious consequences to the orbital debris problem. They have already had failures in the propulsion systems of launched satellites, and have yet to demonstrate their ability to control the dynamics and communications links of such a massive constellation (especially the ones in VLEO where high drag is compounded by solar cycles). Also there are at least 3 other competitors with similar plans. But yes, there's an outside chance it could be a game changer too (that's what previous purveyors of satellite constellations claimed too).

re: orbital debris, see Kessler Syndrome, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmDKQz39xh8
Sure - it’s not a guaranteed success. But space X has managed some pretty impressive feats where others have failed.

They’ve already addressed some of your critiques. They lowered the orbits to reduce the debris issue (so that debris will de orbit on its own) and they are going with a huge number of satellites so that individual failures will not be a significant problem in the context of the thousands in the constellation. Nobody has tried constellations anywhere near the scale they already have in place. It’s also supposedly functional already (albeit in a limited testing capacity). They wouldn’t be talking commercial launch this year if they didn’t have a pretty reasonable expectation the system will work.

MathIsMyWayr
Posts: 1779
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:47 pm
Location: CA

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by MathIsMyWayr » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:33 pm

dukeblue219 wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:59 am
Momus wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:53 pm
HawkeyePierce wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:42 pm
Retired1809 wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:22 pm
My concern is simply that small towns will be further disadvantaged by not being able to offer 5G to potential employers considering building new facilities.
Why wouldn’t they just use hard lines?

5G is 99% a gimmick. The only people excited are marketers and lobbyists.
That's like saying cable internet is gimmick, or 3G or 4G right now. Do you want to go back to dial up 56k modem?
Widespread 3G made mobile web browsing possible at acceptable speeds. 4G made mobile video streaming possible in high def. 5G isn't going to have a clear generational jump for people in rural areas. It won't be ANYTHING like the difference between dialup and broadband at home.
I don't see why carriers have to invest heavily in 5G except in a limited number of densely populated geographical areas. Small towns in US? I would not count on it. Let's see how 5G is deployed in S. Korea and then revisit the topic.

User avatar
tcassette
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:20 pm
Location: Southeast Tennessee

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by tcassette » Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:51 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:57 am
onourway wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:29 am
wootwoot wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:59 pm
Seasonal wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:53 pm
Lack of infrastructure and services are a major problem for rural US. Lack of hospitals and medical care generally are more of an issue than 5G. Cities are generally where the people, jobs and services are, which seems to be a self-reinforcing cycle.
This.

Not being able to stream Netflix on your phone is a 1st world problem.
“Streaming Netflix” is a euphemism for having usable broadband.

Functional broadband is decidedly NOT a 1%-er issue. The people who don’t have access are primarily in the bottom 20th percentile of the economic ladder, and reliable affordable access is pretty much a requirement for bettering their situation, or even simply getting by.

Unfortunately 5g is no answer here. If your rural area still doesn’t have functional LTE, talk to your government representatives. They are the ones who have the power to change things.
I suspect the "bottom 20%" includes an awful lot of people who live in densely populated urban areas - just by logic of sheer numbers.

And yes, they too suffer from a lack of access - can't afford the heating bill (or rent) let alone a broadband subscription.

But your point about rural dwellers is absolutely right. Encouraging centralisation in big cities is not necessarily a good economic policy - big cities have congestion issues and the high cost of housing makes it hard to workers to move to those jobs. I can't believe the 90 minute+ commutes of people in the Bay Area, greater New York or SoCal are signs of an efficient economy.

If there is not good broadband, businesses and individuals (many of whom telework) won't relocate to rural areas, and the problems of an aging population base, and depopulation, will continue.

Solutions? Over to America & Americans. I remember Roosevelt built a whole agency to electrify rural areas- put them on the grid. The US actually had quite a bit of wind power in the 1930s, providing local pumping and electricity.

It could be done again.
Fiber broadband has plenty of speed and capacity, even during peak hours, and typically no data caps. A program for wired fiber broadband similar to the Rural Electrification effort of the Roosevelt era could work, but is unlikely, especially at the Federal level. There is abundant corporate money making sure that politicians will not do anything that would take away from corporate profits, or even compete with corporations. Such a program would be labeled as "big government." Many states have laws (encouraged and written by corporate lobbyists) that effectively prevent non-profit companies such as municipal electric companies from offering broadband services in rural areas outside their electric service areas. Yet the big corporations elect not to provide broadband themselves because of insufficient profits in those sparsely populated areas. So instead of government helping to provide a needed service to rural residents, many states have legalized anti-competitive practices. We have the best governments that money can buy.

hiduplex
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:04 am

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by hiduplex » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:33 am

Iowa has some of the most progressive telecommunications infrastructure in the United States. For people treating the area like fly over country the rural farmers and people banded together to build some of the best networks in the USA.

Municipal utility Cedar Falls Utilities provides fiber optics to the home and is taxpayer-funded and owned. https://www.cfu.net/tv-internet/

Iowa Communications Network is a taxpayer-supported public fiber optic Network that connects hospitals, schools and other nonprofits around the state they've had a lot of corruption scandals and are poorly run. But its still shows how the people value connections and want to build good infrastructure. https://icn.iowa.gov/

I have worked in telecommunications for almost 10 years I've worked for both ILEC and CLEC companies. competitive local exchange carrier over build in a lot of established markets and were created by the 1996 Telecom Act.

ILEC companies are incumbent local exchange carrier those companies were the phone companies in areas before MA Bell break up in 1980’s a lot of companies that have that status are for profit and seldom reinvest the money in ways that the end user benefits. I currently work at a cooperative that has been around since the 1950's and services rural areas all of their incumbent plant has been over built with fiber optics to the home they have no data cap and everyone pays the same price. People move to the towns that we service because of how good our internet service is for a lot of people that is not the main reason they move to these towns but it does factor in and makes people want to stay longer.

I've worked at for-profit telecom companies and seeing the difference in how they invest how they treat their employees and how they treat their customers a lot of the for-profit companies are run for short-term profit and indifference to fixing long-term underlying problems why do that when you can just put a Band-Aid on it.

The member-owners of the cooperatives understand that they set the policy they own the network not some large corporation, not some government office, but the end user.

rustymutt
Posts: 3948
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:03 pm

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by rustymutt » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:19 am

dukeblue219 wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:10 pm
5G will, at least for some time, be primarily a benefit for urbanites. It's good for dense environments but with most implementations won't be a long range service.

That said... is anyone with current 4G service particularly worried that they won't get 5G? Media hype aside, I've yet to speak with anyone who cares about 5G, and Im a Millennial in engineering.
It's all been just hype so far. I've been wanting 5G, but nobody is offering it here yet. T-Moble says it's nationwide 5G is up and running, but when you look at their website it's vague. Only a handful of products offered 5g ready. I'm tired of vague service offerings like this. Dropped them once for bad coverage. I don't like the games mobile companies play.
Even educators need education. And some can be hard headed to the point of needing time out.

forgeblast
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:45 am
Location: PA
Contact:

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by forgeblast » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:28 am

Ged wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:07 pm
snackdog wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:52 pm
quantAndHold wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:10 pm
snackdog wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:19 am
I have read there is concern over radiation effects and some European countries are delaying rollout.
This is fake news spread by the same fake news sources that have been affecting chaos in other parts of our public lives.
That's weird - it is in the Financial Times, a paper not known for their fake reporting, AFAIK.
Right. The Financial Times is accurately reporting that some countries are delaying roll out due to concerns in these countries that 5G may cause health effects.

They are not reporting that there are health effects. They are reporting on that there is speculation that there may be.
Science VS had a podcast on 5g, and touched on health effects. https://gimletmedia.com/shows/science-vs/j4h39x you can also look at the research and safety issues since they list all their sources.

User avatar
Ged
Posts: 3888
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 1:48 pm
Location: Roke

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by Ged » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:49 pm

forgeblast wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:28 am
Science VS had a podcast on 5g, and touched on health effects.
Thanks to the pointer to that source. There are some interesting review articles linked to the podcast.

forgeblast
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:45 am
Location: PA
Contact:

Re: When will 5G be available in Rural US?

Post by forgeblast » Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:15 am

Ged wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:49 pm
forgeblast wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:28 am
Science VS had a podcast on 5g, and touched on health effects.
Thanks to the pointer to that source. There are some interesting review articles linked to the podcast.
I like that they list their sources so that you can go back and see how they made their findings.

Post Reply