DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

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ThankYouJack
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DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by ThankYouJack »

My spouse has been into photography for a while (mostly portraits) and has done some professional gigs but she doesn’t shoot that often. She has a canon 60d and has wanted a canon 5d for a while. She thinks the autofocus on the eye is a real nice feature, but at $2500 it comes at a steep price tag. I think the 6d is half the cost and some of the savings could go into some glass( she currently has a 50mm 1.4, 85mm, and a wide angle for real estate).
Anyway is the 5D mark IV the way to go or what other cameras should we consider?
adamthesmythe
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by adamthesmythe »

Some thoughts

More $ gets you more camera

but almost any camera these days gives excellent results in undemanding applications.

If something the wife wants costs an amount of money you can afford let her have it

and remind her when you want to buy the Porche.
Teague
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by Teague »

For portraits and real estate the photographer has complete control of the lighting, or they should anyway, so I'd go with the smallest lightest camera that you can. Any modern camera will work in those situations. Now, if she's shooting equestrian barrel racing at night (flash frowned upon due to spooking horses) in f-nothing lighting and need to maintain minimum 1/500 second, then things get a little more interesting.
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TN_Boy
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by TN_Boy »

ThankYouJack wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:02 pm My spouse has been into photography for a while (mostly portraits) and has done some professional gigs but she doesn’t shoot that often. She has a canon 60d and has wanted a canon 5d for a while. She thinks the autofocus on the eye is a real nice feature, but at $2500 it comes at a steep price tag. I think the 6d is half the cost and some of the savings could go into some glass( she currently has a 50mm 1.4, 85mm, and a wide angle for real estate).
Anyway is the 5D mark IV the way to go or what other cameras should we consider?
If she is the pro, I assume she makes the final call?

As another poster said, the reason to go with an expensive body is if you need something like awesome tracking of moving subjects, great high-ISO performance, high burst rate, etc etc. Or maybe really good weather-sealing.

What camera body do most "casual" portrait photographers use? Does she know what peers are using?

(If I was getting into this type of photography, I'd probably look at going mirrorless given technology trends).
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Sandtrap
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by Sandtrap »

ThankYouJack wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:02 pm My spouse has been into photography for a while (mostly portraits) and has done some professional gigs but she doesn’t shoot that often. She has a canon 60d and has wanted a canon 5d for a while. She thinks the autofocus on the eye is a real nice feature, but at $2500 it comes at a steep price tag. I think the 6d is half the cost and some of the savings could go into some glass( she currently has a 50mm 1.4, 85mm, and a wide angle for real estate).
Anyway is the 5D mark IV the way to go or what other cameras should we consider?
The quality of lenses and what is available is as or more important than the camera body.
Thus: Canon, Nikon.

Canon 5D MK IV is used by many professionals, weddings, etc.
That and the Nikon equiv. are "gold standards".
Spend money thereafter on Canon "L" glass (lenses) exclusively.

Professional setup example:
2 bodies, Canon 5d MkIV (min. if event / location shooting)
"L" glass zooms and primes
incl.
85mm and 135mm primes (L) great for portraiture.
Tilt shift for real estate.

Several flashes and a transmitter.
IE: Canon Speedlite 600EX II-RT

If studio space available then studio lighting, etc. IE: Alien Bees, etc.

Post processing: (shoot in raw lst)
50%+ of the effort is in post as well as pre.

Capture One
>
Adobe Photoshop (full version)
>
Portrait Pro 12 (plug in and/or standalone) for portraits

Sony full frame mirrorless is an option but debatable.
j :happy
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Topic Author
ThankYouJack
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by ThankYouJack »

Thanks all. Good food for thought. Used could be an option too.
TN_Boy wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:03 pm
If she is the pro, I assume she makes the final call?
Yeah, she'll make the final call. I'm more of the researcher. Some of her friends have 5Ds so they may be willing to sell some extra gear.
tibbitts
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by tibbitts »

ThankYouJack wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:02 pm My spouse has been into photography for a while (mostly portraits) and has done some professional gigs but she doesn’t shoot that often. She has a canon 60d and has wanted a canon 5d for a while. She thinks the autofocus on the eye is a real nice feature, but at $2500 it comes at a steep price tag. I think the 6d is half the cost and some of the savings could go into some glass( she currently has a 50mm 1.4, 85mm, and a wide angle for real estate).
Anyway is the 5D mark IV the way to go or what other cameras should we consider?
You don't say what model but almost certain the wide-angle won't cover the sensor on any of the full-frame bodies, so it will have to be replaced if the intent is to use the new body for the same purpose. That can be an expensive lens.

And the 85mm will require a closer distance to subjects than with the existing body so that might be in line for replacement as well.

Make sure she is okay with the size and weight of the new body and lenses.
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Gort
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by Gort »

Sandtrap wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:04 pm
ThankYouJack wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:02 pm My spouse has been into photography for a while (mostly portraits) and has done some professional gigs but she doesn’t shoot that often. She has a canon 60d and has wanted a canon 5d for a while. She thinks the autofocus on the eye is a real nice feature, but at $2500 it comes at a steep price tag. I think the 6d is half the cost and some of the savings could go into some glass( she currently has a 50mm 1.4, 85mm, and a wide angle for real estate).
Anyway is the 5D mark IV the way to go or what other cameras should we consider?
The quality of lenses and what is available is as or more important than the camera body.
Thus: Canon, Nikon.


Canon 5D MK IV is used by many professionals, weddings, etc.
That and the Nikon equiv. are "gold standards".
Spend money thereafter on Canon "L" glass (lenses) exclusively.

Professional setup example:
2 bodies, Canon 5d MkIV (min. if event / location shooting)
"L" glass zooms and primes
incl.
85mm and 135mm primes (L) great for portraiture.
Tilt shift for real estate.

Several flashes and a transmitter.
IE: Canon Speedlite 600EX II-RT

If studio space available then studio lighting, etc. IE: Alien Bees, etc.

Post processing: (shoot in raw lst)
50%+ of the effort is in post as well as pre.

Capture One
>
Adobe Photoshop (full version)
>
Portrait Pro 12 (plug in and/or standalone) for portraits

Sony full frame mirrorless is an option but debatable.
j :happy
I would add Fujifilm, Zeiss, Leica.
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snackdog
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by snackdog »

Digital SLR sales are have been crashing at an alarming rate for some time as bulky cameras are driven out of the market by telephones. I would buy used at the very least, assuming an iPhone 11 pro won't work for her.
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Watty
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by Watty »

ThankYouJack wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:02 pm Anyway is the 5D mark IV the way to go or what other cameras should we consider?
DPREVIEW is one of the go-to web sites for researching cameras.

https://www.dpreview.com/buying-guides

One thing you did not mention is if the new camera would be a replacement for her old camera that she would be selling, or it would be in addition to it. If it would be a second camera then there is a lot to be said for getting a smaller camera that she could take with her when she does not want to carry 20 pounds of camera equipment.

The best thing would to be to talk with her to set a budget then let your wife pick out what she wants.

FYI, Canon sells refurbished cameras and lenses on their web site which come with a one year canon warranty. I have bought several refurbished things there and they looked like new and I have never had any problems with them.

https://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/cata ... ns-cameras

Their prices vary and sometimes are not a huge discount from what new equipment would cost but they will often have special deals on Black Friday through Christmas and other times of the year. I bought a refurbished camera from them with a good Black Friday deal last year.

It is not uncommon for then to be out of stock on an item but if you check back the next day they may have it, or they may have it bundled with a lens.
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Gort
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by Gort »

Watty wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:17 pm
ThankYouJack wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:02 pm Anyway is the 5D mark IV the way to go or what other cameras should we consider?
DPREVIEW is one of the go-to web sites for researching cameras.

https://www.dpreview.com/buying-guides

One thing you did not mention is if the new camera would be a replacement for her old camera that she would be selling, of it would be in addition to it. It it would be a second camera then there is a lot to be said for getting a smaller camera that she could take with her when she does not want to carry 20 pounds of camera equipment.

The best thing would to be to talk with her to set a budget then let your wife pick out what she wants.

FYI, Canon sells refurbished cameras and lenses on their web site which come with a one year canon warranty. I have bought several refurbished things there and they looked like new and I have never had any problems with them.

https://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/cata ... ns-cameras

Their prices vary and sometimes are not a huge discount from what new equipment would cost but they will often have special deals on Black Friday and other times of the year. I bought a refurbished camera from them with a good Black Friday deal last year.

It is not uncommon for then to be out of stock on an item but if you check back the next day they may have it, or they may have it bundled with a lens.
DPR is a good place to start but their opinions seem to be biased towards particular brands. DPR is owned by Amazon and the Amazon purchase link is conveniently (for them) located at the top of each review they do. I would read user reviews of the particular camera you are interested in at two of the largest photographic sellers B&H Photo and Adorama.
Teague
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by Teague »

ThankYouJack wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:02 pm My spouse has been into photography for a while (mostly portraits) and has done some professional gigs but she doesn’t shoot that often. She has a canon 60d and has wanted a canon 5d for a while. She thinks the autofocus on the eye is a real nice feature, but at $2500 it comes at a steep price tag. I think the 6d is half the cost and some of the savings could go into some glass( she currently has a 50mm 1.4, 85mm, and a wide angle for real estate).
Anyway is the 5D mark IV the way to go or what other cameras should we consider?
Let's cut to the chase-
See above. ;)
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by tibbitts »

snackdog wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:14 pm Digital SLR sales are have been crashing at an alarming rate for some time as bulky cameras are driven out of the market by telephones. I would buy used at the very least, assuming an iPhone 11 pro won't work for her.
Although the gap is closing, a professional portrait and real-estate photographer still can't even come close to getting by with a phone.
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mindgap
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by mindgap »

Good glass and a good body together make great pictures. If I had to do the call I would get the 5D Mk3 and spend the savings on great glass (Zeiss, Canon, Nikon)

As we always say in photography. "You date the body, but you marry the glass."
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mindgap
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by mindgap »

snackdog wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:14 pm Digital SLR sales are have been crashing at an alarming rate for some time as bulky cameras are driven out of the market by telephones. I would buy used at the very least, assuming an iPhone 11 pro won't work for her.
Sorry, nobody pays you when you would show up to a professional shoot with an iPhone. Thats not happening in the near future.
tibbitts
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by tibbitts »

mindgap wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:36 pm Good glass and a good body together make great pictures. If I had to do the call I would get the 5D Mk3 and spend the savings on great glass (Zeiss, Canon, Nikon)

As we always say in photography. "You date the body, but you marry the glass."
I think that saying is a little outdated. There have been some significant changes in expectations for optical performance in recent years, and while a few older designs are still effective, even some high-end lenses from the past don't really make it in a 50+mp world. Not to mention functionality like AF speed: for the most part newer lenses are faster, and that matters for subjects like sports and wildlife. Modern coatings and designs can overcome some of the optical deficiencies that even the best older lenses were afflicted with.
System1
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by System1 »

I don't believe that the 5D IV has eye tracking AF. Get the EOS R or Sony A7 for that. The 5D IV is great for all uses, but it is heavy, I leave my 5D III home quite often and bring something lighter. The lenses she has don't sound super expensive and can be sold for a reasonable amount if she were to switch platforms. The comment above about the Wide angle fitting the full frame 5D is probably true, the 10-18 STM is great on the 60D, but won't work ok the 5D. You would have to get a 17-40 or similar which will be quite a bit more expensive.

Canon is bringing out some strong mirrorless options to compete with Sony, I would check both of those brands out in person before buying a new body.
TN_Boy
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by TN_Boy »

mindgap wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:39 pm
snackdog wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:14 pm Digital SLR sales are have been crashing at an alarming rate for some time as bulky cameras are driven out of the market by telephones. I would buy used at the very least, assuming an iPhone 11 pro won't work for her.
Sorry, nobody pays you when you would show up to a professional shoot with an iPhone. Thats not happening in the near future.
It's not just a matter of getting paid. There are situations where you can't get the desired shot with a cell phone.

iphones are killing point and shoots. They are doing damage to some of "better" cameras as well. There remain many situations where a cellphone can't get the job done. My take is that:

1) Cellphones are slowly increasing the range of situations where they can get decent pictures (e.g. using a "night mode" to get high quality pictures in a low light setting). Note that the cell phone can't handle the subject moving in this situation.... it can handle low light, stationary objects.
2) They are getting better at the situations they could already handle (moderately wide angle landscapes, close up portraits).

I'm happy to accept corrections on my take from pros, but I feel I'm in the ballpark.

People who compare cell phone and dSLR pictures pick scenarios where the cell phone can do well. And there are many such situations. Also many where the cell phone is little short of useless.
TN_Boy
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by TN_Boy »

System1 wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:52 pm I don't believe that the 5D IV has eye tracking AF. Get the EOS R or Sony A7 for that. The 5D IV is great for all uses, but it is heavy, I leave my 5D III home quite often and bring something lighter. The lenses she has don't sound super expensive and can be sold for a reasonable amount if she were to switch platforms. The comment above about the Wide angle fitting the full frame 5D is probably true, the 10-18 STM is great on the 60D, but won't work ok the 5D. You would have to get a 17-40 or similar which will be quite a bit more expensive.

Canon is bringing out some strong mirrorless options to compete with Sony, I would check both of those brands out in person before buying a new body.
I'm not a pro (though I did watch one work today) but I have the impression that for a lot of portrait/wedding/landscape work even very serious pros are starting to pick the latest generation of mirrorless over dSLRs.

While the dSLRs are holding their own (for now) in sports, or situations where physical ruggedness is required, etc. Also the minor size and weight advantage of mirrorless isn't that important if you have to lug around a massive telephoto anyway, which a lot of outdoor and sports photography requires.
Raraculus
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by Raraculus »

I would suggest the OP check out full-frame mirrorless cameras such as the Canon R or RP. The RP is a budget system and appears to be a competent camera.

Alternatively, the OP could consider the Canon 6D Mark II. It's a great camera. I should know, as I own one. :)

The Canon 5D Mark IV is overkill, IMO. You get way too much complexity and features that an average person will not use.

I'm sure Nikon and Sony full-frame mirrorless camera offerings have compelling value-function proposition as well.
TravelforFun
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by TravelforFun »

ThankYouJack wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:02 pm My spouse has been into photography for a while (mostly portraits) and has done some professional gigs but she doesn’t shoot that often. She has a canon 60d and has wanted a canon 5d for a while. She thinks the autofocus on the eye is a real nice feature, but at $2500 it comes at a steep price tag. I think the 6d is half the cost and some of the savings could go into some glass( she currently has a 50mm 1.4, 85mm, and a wide angle for real estate).
Anyway is the 5D mark IV the way to go or what other cameras should we consider?
Has your wife looked into mirrorless cameras. I recently got a Sony a6300 and I have not touched my DSLR since.

TravelforFun
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ThankYouJack
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by ThankYouJack »

Thanks all. Will mention to her that the 6D II and EOS R and EOS RP and maybe even Sony A7 iii are worth looking at. Lots of features to compare!
Not sure which is best for portraits, I'm sure they're all capable and it mostly comes down to the photographer.
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Watty
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by Watty »

ThankYouJack wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:47 am Thanks all. Will mention to her that the 6D II and EOS R and EOS RP and maybe even Sony A7 iii are worth looking at. Lots of features to compare!
Not sure which is best for portraits, I'm sure they're all capable and it mostly comes down to the photographer.
I would suspect that she would notice a lot more difference in the wide angle real estate shots with a full frame camera.

The reason is that with a crop sensor there is 1.6 factor so a 50mm lens on a crop sensor is like an 80mm(1.6x50) lens. A 30mm lens is almost like a 50mm lens. This makes it a lot harder to make a good wide angle lens for a crop sensor camera.

Often for portraits you often don't really want an ultra sharp image since that would show every wrinkle, freckle, skin blemish, and nose hair so she may find that with a new higher resolution full frame camera may require that she spend more time in post processing to soften up her portraits.

Depending on how important the budget is she might also consider the new crop sensor 90D and there might be good black friday sales on the prior 80D. These would be similar to her current camera but several generations more advanced.
pomomojo
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by pomomojo »

Consider investing in a Sony A7RIII or A7RIV.
Add a Metabone EF to Sony-E amount adapter.
You will be able to use your older lenses and retain autofocus abilities AND keep in-body stabilization
Sony also maintains an advantage with their low light sensors.

The disadvantages of Sony are ergonomics (or lack thereof), expensive native lenses, and, until recently, lack of long zooms for wildlife.
A series of long zooms have been released for the 2020 Olympics, but they are for a mostly niche customer (MSRP 2k-14k).
Also, Sony does not offer tilt shift lenses, but those are also a specialty product
lernd
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by lernd »

serious amateur here. Love the 6D, bought it when it first came out (there is now a second generation that came out in the last year or two - 6D Mark II). Some thoughts:

1. Full frame cameras (6D and 5D models) are far superior to those with a cropped sensor (the 60D - APS sensor). Either model will be a significant upgrade to the 60D.

2. Consider the quality of lens in addition to the camera body. If the difference between 6D and 5D bodies will let you upgrade lenses, then I would say the difference between the 5D and 6D bodies is not sufficient to offset the upgrade to L-level lenses. Saving > $1,000 on the body would let you go from the 50 mm f/1.4 or 85mm f/1.8 (assuming that was the "85 mm" you referenced) which are both very nice lenses, to L-level at the same focal lengths or other great lenses (the 24-70 f/2.8; any one of the 70-200mm, and the 24-105 f/4 all come to mind...and the 100mm f/2.8 Macro also comes to mind as a great portrait lens).
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ThankYouJack
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by ThankYouJack »

Good additional points.

She said she's going to try out some friends equipment to see what she likes the most. She's also thought about getting the 50mm L lens and waiting on a new body. But it seems like a 50mm on a FF camera would be too wide for portraits and an 85mm would be better for indoor portraits and 135mm for outdoor portraits. (pretty much equivalent to her 85 and 50 on a crop sensor). Does that make sense for shooting with primes? The 135mm f/2 is another thousand so switching to a FF will add up.
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snackdog
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by snackdog »

mindgap wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:39 pm
snackdog wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:14 pm Digital SLR sales are have been crashing at an alarming rate for some time as bulky cameras are driven out of the market by telephones. I would buy used at the very least, assuming an iPhone 11 pro won't work for her.
Sorry, nobody pays you when you would show up to a professional shoot with an iPhone. Thats not happening in the near future.
It's already happening.

https://www.boredpanda.com/wedding-phot ... gn=organic

And you may also be aware ...

https://www.indiewire.com/2018/03/movie ... 201941565/
HerbsKid
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by HerbsKid »

But it seems like a 50mm on a FF camera would be too wide for portraits and an 85mm would be better for indoor portraits and 135mm for outdoor portraits. (pretty much equivalent to her 85 and 50 on a crop sensor). Does that make sense for shooting with primes?
I would agree that 50mm is too wide for portrait use on FF, and that 85mm is preferable. Why do outdoor portraits necessarily require 135mm ? I have used 85mm for both outdoor and indoor portraits. Also, why 135mm F/2.0? Does Canon still make a slower prime like 135mm F/2.8? (I just checked - it appears not). Another option would be 100mm F/2.0, which would be a nice compromise. The 100mm F/2.0 is what I would buy.

While certainly I don't agree with all of his opinions, Ken Rockwell's website, Kenrockwell.com makes for interesting reading. He's something of a Canon Fanboy, but worth checking out. Here's a link to all his Canon reviews (bodies and lenses). He's a big fan of the Mirrorless EOS R / RP:
https://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/index.htm
Copper John
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by Copper John »

I do strictly wildlife photography and after renting the 6d body for a number of Africa trips I decided to switch to the 5d mark 1V for my last Africa trip. My goal was to capture a cheetah chase and the resulting take down of the prey. I have in the past had opportunities but my my attempts were unsuccessful. I needed at minimum a fast burst, sufficient megapixels for enlargements, an advanced auto focusing system and a wide coverage of cross type focus points. I also wanted to be able to accomplish my goal using large RAW files. The 5d mark 1V came through.

It has a much more advanced autofocusing system than the 6d mark I or II although the 6d mark II does seem to have narrowed the gap somewhat. I do not do wedding photography so I am not well versed to how often the above conditions would apply, but they both are once in a life time scenarios and there are no do overs. I could imagine a low light scenario where that bouquet goes flying and you would want an advanced auto focus system.
Laika
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by Laika »

One thing to recognize is that mirrorless cameras have reached a tipping point and will likely dominate sales going forward. This means that prices for used DSLR equipment will almost certainly decline (and they already have).

I own both an advanced DSLR (Nikon D850) and a mid-range mirrorless (Nikon Z6). Just about all new lenses are coming out for the mirrorless bodies, and these are generally of significantly higher image quality than even the best of the prior generation.

Long lenses (300mm+) are one area where DSLR's will likely hold their own for a while longer, simply because their weight and bulk (and required flange distance) is so great that the size and bulk of the camera attached to it hardly matters. But for wide-angle to normal, mirrorless will prevail.

I was a mirrorless holdout for as long as I could. But although the very best DSLRs are still better in many respects than the best mirrorless cameras, my suggestion is to stick with mirrorless unless buying used.
Woodshark
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by Woodshark »

As a recently retired (30 years+) full time professional photographer I'll weigh in. Yes the 5D is a great camera. But.....does she absolutely need the latest and greatest with all the new bells and whistles? If so, why? The 5D, 5D Mark II and 5D Mark III are fantastic cameras and you can buy them used at a substantial discount. Even though my 5D MK II is well over 10 years old, it continues to work well and does MORE than I could ever ask for. I don't mind spending $ for what I need but I really don't like spending a lot more for new features that I'll never use. Remember, at a certain point it's not the camera, it's the person behind the viewfinder.
robphoto
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by robphoto »

If you can afford it, I would get whatever she wants; maybe go to a camera store with her and let her have fun trying out the cameras.

I needed to get a new backup camera recently, and I bought the Canon EOS R (new mirrorless) instead of the 5D Mark IV, mainly for the electronic viewfinder, ability to use the existing Canon EF lenses (it included the adapter), and other features. You could also look at the EOS RP which is only 999. including lens adapter, or 1500. with a 24-105 lens.

I think the main thing is to let her enjoy getting what she wants, whether that's a DSLR or mirrorless. the 50 and 85mm lenses will work well on these, and even if the wide angle is for the small sensor DSLR's, the R or RP will work with them and automatically crop the sensor correctly. There's even an option to choose the APC 1.6x crop if you want to use the smaller sensor area.
bhsince87
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by bhsince87 »

I have a 5D3 and a 5D4. The 5D4's autofocus is light years ahead of the 5D3, and does much better at high ISOs.

But it sounds like neither of those advantages would be of much use to her in what she typically shoots. So a 5d3 might make more sense for her. They can be picked up used all over the place. And Canon will still fix them if there are any issues.

Also keep in mind that next year Canon will be coming out with a new generation of high pixel cameras. Speculation is that will come to the 5 series the following year. So don't expect 5d4's to come down in price any time soon.


IMO, any lens below F2.8 is overkill for portrait work. In fact, even the 100mm F2.8 macro will do a great job in studio type situations on a full frame camera.
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tibbitts
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by tibbitts »

robphoto wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:26 pm If you can afford it, I would get whatever she wants; maybe go to a camera store with her and let her have fun trying out the cameras.

I needed to get a new backup camera recently, and I bought the Canon EOS R (new mirrorless) instead of the 5D Mark IV, mainly for the electronic viewfinder, ability to use the existing Canon EF lenses (it included the adapter), and other features. You could also look at the EOS RP which is only 999. including lens adapter, or 1500. with a 24-105 lens.

I think the main thing is to let her enjoy getting what she wants, whether that's a DSLR or mirrorless. the 50 and 85mm lenses will work well on these, and even if the wide angle is for the small sensor DSLR's, the R or RP will work with them and automatically crop the sensor correctly. There's even an option to choose the APC 1.6x crop if you want to use the smaller sensor area.
Question about mirrorless FF since I don't have one: is the viewfinder image full-size even with a crop lens? Is the viewfinder resolution different (or noticeably different) with a FF vs. crop lens on mirrorless? It seems that crop lenses provide a poor viewfinder experience on FF DSLRs (I only tried on once, that was my impressiong) so that would seem to be an advantage for mirrorless - ?
smackboy1
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by smackboy1 »

ThankYouJack wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:02 pmMy spouse has been into photography for a while (mostly portraits) and has done some professional gigs but she doesn’t shoot that often. She has a canon 60d and has wanted a canon 5d for a while. She thinks the autofocus on the eye is a real nice feature, but at $2500 it comes at a steep price tag. I think the 6d is half the cost and some of the savings could go into some glass( she currently has a 50mm 1.4, 85mm, and a wide angle for real estate).
Anyway is the 5D mark IV the way to go or what other cameras should we consider?
What is the long term plan? DSLRs are on the way to becoming extinct. Mirrorless is the future. Does she want to stay with Canon? Take a look at the Canon EOS R. Is she willing to sell all her old gear and switch brands? Sony is the current king of mirrorless with lots of options for bodies and lenses. Perhaps a Sony a7III.
Disclaimer: nothing written here should be taken as legal advice, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by robphoto »

tibbitts wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:11 pm
robphoto wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:26 pm If you can afford it, I would get whatever she wants; maybe go to a camera store with her and let her have fun trying out the cameras.

I needed to get a new backup camera recently, and I bought the Canon EOS R (new mirrorless) instead of the 5D Mark IV, mainly for the electronic viewfinder, ability to use the existing Canon EF lenses (it included the adapter), and other features. You could also look at the EOS RP which is only 999. including lens adapter, or 1500. with a 24-105 lens.

I think the main thing is to let her enjoy getting what she wants, whether that's a DSLR or mirrorless. the 50 and 85mm lenses will work well on these, and even if the wide angle is for the small sensor DSLR's, the R or RP will work with them and automatically crop the sensor correctly. There's even an option to choose the APC 1.6x crop if you want to use the smaller sensor area.
Question about mirrorless FF since I don't have one: is the viewfinder image full-size even with a crop lens? Is the viewfinder resolution different (or noticeably different) with a FF vs. crop lens on mirrorless? It seems that crop lenses provide a poor viewfinder experience on FF DSLRs (I only tried on once, that was my impressiong) so that would seem to be an advantage for mirrorless - ?
I think the viewfinder looks about the same when it's cropping. (it fills the viewfinder, or the rear screen) The resulting image is lower resolution because it's not using the whole sensor. It's about 12 mp instead of 30mp when cropped, but that's still big enough for most uses.
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by tibbitts »

robphoto wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:51 pm
tibbitts wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:11 pm
robphoto wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:26 pm If you can afford it, I would get whatever she wants; maybe go to a camera store with her and let her have fun trying out the cameras.

I needed to get a new backup camera recently, and I bought the Canon EOS R (new mirrorless) instead of the 5D Mark IV, mainly for the electronic viewfinder, ability to use the existing Canon EF lenses (it included the adapter), and other features. You could also look at the EOS RP which is only 999. including lens adapter, or 1500. with a 24-105 lens.

I think the main thing is to let her enjoy getting what she wants, whether that's a DSLR or mirrorless. the 50 and 85mm lenses will work well on these, and even if the wide angle is for the small sensor DSLR's, the R or RP will work with them and automatically crop the sensor correctly. There's even an option to choose the APC 1.6x crop if you want to use the smaller sensor area.
Question about mirrorless FF since I don't have one: is the viewfinder image full-size even with a crop lens? Is the viewfinder resolution different (or noticeably different) with a FF vs. crop lens on mirrorless? It seems that crop lenses provide a poor viewfinder experience on FF DSLRs (I only tried on once, that was my impressiong) so that would seem to be an advantage for mirrorless - ?
I think the viewfinder looks about the same when it's cropping. (it fills the viewfinder, or the rear screen) The resulting image is lower resolution because it's not using the whole sensor. It's about 12 mp instead of 30mp when cropped, but that's still big enough for most uses.
The sensor resolution is less in crop mode, but is the viewfinder (or rear lcd) resolution sufficiently lower than either FF or crop sensor resolution that the view would be indistinguishable?
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by Laika »

tibbitts wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:05 pm The sensor resolution is less in crop mode, but is the viewfinder (or rear lcd) resolution sufficiently lower than either FF or crop sensor resolution that the view would be indistinguishable?
The viewfinder and rear LCD will look essentially indistinguishable from "full frame" even in crop mode. That includes after the difference in resolution. But my opinion is that full-frame mirrorless cameras are not significantly larger or heavier than top crop-sensor mirrorless, and eventually I'd expect most crop sensor cameras to be limited to amateur-oriented models and even phased out eventually.

There are several awesome things about mirrorless viewfinders:

1) You cannot hurt your eye if the sun is shining through your lens while looking through the viewfinder.
2) You will be able to "see in the dark" (almost) at night, making nighttime composition much easier.

Bad things about mirrorless:

1) Turn-on time can be slower than top DSLRs, vs. just looking through a prism. This irritates me.
2) Battery life can be a lot lower than top DSLRs.

But, in the end, I agree with many of the comments: Get her what she wants!
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by msk »

I suspect that only she knows what she is looking for. Just give her the $... $2500 does not even cover a couple of serious lenses. My Canon 600mm cost upwards of $12k. Even a weddings-staple like a 24-70mm/2.8 L costs $1600. I would be shocked if my DW thought it was a good idea to choose (or help me decide on) my latest photo toy. Toys are very personal and idiosyncratic. Just see how many responses one gets on BH, of all places!, to a thread of toy (aka performance) cars.
TN_Boy
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by TN_Boy »

snackdog wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:51 pm
mindgap wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:39 pm
snackdog wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:14 pm Digital SLR sales are have been crashing at an alarming rate for some time as bulky cameras are driven out of the market by telephones. I would buy used at the very least, assuming an iPhone 11 pro won't work for her.
Sorry, nobody pays you when you would show up to a professional shoot with an iPhone. Thats not happening in the near future.
It's already happening.

https://www.boredpanda.com/wedding-phot ... gn=organic

And you may also be aware ...

https://www.indiewire.com/2018/03/movie ... 201941565/
Not exactly.

If you read the first article, you'll see that while the photographer does use the iphone at weddings “We started pulling out our phones for a few extra portrait images on wedding days and engagement shoots as a way to send the couple teaser images as they wait to get all of their photos back" I do NOT think they are using the smartphone for the bulk of the photos. Do you think they are?

Looking at the posted images, they are, unsurprisingly, exactly the type of shots that the latest crop of cellphones are good at:

1) Good lighting
2) Control of the subject matter (you are not grabbing a quick candid, they are posing)
3) Didn't need much zoom or serious autofocus power.

VERY often using a longer lens to get a tight shot of people you are not close to results in a great shot. Smartphones .... can't do this.

Pretty much what I said in my first post actually: "People who compare cell phone and dSLR pictures pick scenarios where the cell phone can do well".

Perhaps someone like Sandtrap who has done pro photography could comment on the percentage of wedding shots that would meet the cellphone capabilities.

I did have to laugh at some of the comments on that article. For example the people selling all their dslr gear and buying a smart phone because it meets all their photography needs. If that is true, their photography needs were pretty limited (in which case sure, why NOT use the smartphone).

I don't have the experience with video to comment on the second article. I would assume that movies with smartphone have the same sort of parameters as stills: if you don't need zoom, for example, they can do well. If you had a scene where the camera can't be next to the actors and you wanted a tight shot, of course the smart phone can't do the job.

I actually find the night mode on the latest generation very impressive, though it has limitations (basically, if the scene is dark and nothing moving, it works great, if the subject is moving, its not a great solution). You can do a lot with software, but sometimes you need hardware (bigger sensor, good lens).
Last edited by TN_Boy on Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by TN_Boy »

Laika wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:32 pm
tibbitts wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:05 pm The sensor resolution is less in crop mode, but is the viewfinder (or rear lcd) resolution sufficiently lower than either FF or crop sensor resolution that the view would be indistinguishable?
The viewfinder and rear LCD will look essentially indistinguishable from "full frame" even in crop mode. That includes after the difference in resolution. But my opinion is that full-frame mirrorless cameras are not significantly larger or heavier than top crop-sensor mirrorless, and eventually I'd expect most crop sensor cameras to be limited to amateur-oriented models and even phased out eventually.

There are several awesome things about mirrorless viewfinders:

1) You cannot hurt your eye if the sun is shining through your lens while looking through the viewfinder.
2) You will be able to "see in the dark" (almost) at night, making nighttime composition much easier.

Bad things about mirrorless:

1) Turn-on time can be slower than top DSLRs, vs. just looking through a prism. This irritates me.
2) Battery life can be a lot lower than top DSLRs.

But, in the end, I agree with many of the comments: Get her what she wants!
I have a "bridge camera" with a 1" sensor (Panasonic FZ1000) and a mid-range Nikon d7500 (crop sensor). The former is basically a mirrorless camera without the ability to change lenses -- it comes with a decent 25-400 35mm equivalent zoom.

I've used both cameras a lot. Given half-way decent light, the FZ can take really nice photos. The zoom range is very versatile. When I switch back and forth between cameras here are the differences I note (many of which are generic mirrorless versus dslr):

1) I do like the viewfinder on the nikon. Very clear.
2) You can shoot just about all day on one battery on the Nikon; for the FZ I have no less than four batteries (two OEM, two cheaper ones); I've gone through three batteries on the FZ during a full day of vacationing.
3) The nikon autofocus and such is better (though the FZ is quite respectable) but that's not a fair fight; the FZ is a 2014 camera.
4) For things like landscapes I *love* focus peaking on the FZ. You get a quick idea of exactly what is in focus.
5) On a tripod, I love the FZ ..... all you have to do is switch off VR and turn on the self timer (two hard switches). On the Nikon, you have to make sure you are in mirror up mode ... there are about three things to have to set and one of them requires going into the menus (I have on a quick menu). Put another way, I really have to ensure I get all my settings right, and think a lot about depth of field with the Nikon, with the FZ getting a good tripod picture is much easier and quicker.
6) You basically get auto exposure preview on the FZ when you look through the viewfinder, which I like.
7) The FZ powers up pretty fast, I don't notice much difference from the Nikon, maybe a little.
8) The FZ's burst mode is as fast or faster as the Nikons (which is more or less a semi-pro dslr with a pretty good burst mode) just because it is mirrorless.
9) Obviously for any given application, I can put a lens on the nikon that will result in better optical performance than the FZ, but that is a function of the "non-interchangeable lens" on the FZ not mirrorless versus dslr.
10) Although I don't use it often, the FZ has a "night scene" mode where it shoots a burst and then combines to come up with jpg with a lower noise image. Similar in some ways to what the smart phone night mode can do. (This is the only time I use one of the "programmed" modes).

I shoot both cameras in RAW mode and post-process in lightroom.

Because of things like focus peaking and tripod ease of use, if I were primarily a landscape photographer (amateur or pro) I believe mirrorless is the better choice right now (but haven't tried hands-on all the suspects; this is based on my time with the two cameras above and lots of reading). Likewise it wouldn't surprise me if mirrorless for weddings and portraits worked as well as a dslr now. You do have to think about lens cost; when I bought the Nikon a year or two ago, one reason I went for it was the much wider availability (and often lower cost) of the glass. I suspect in two or three years I will re-gear with a full frame mirrorless.
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by Rowan Oak »

Last edited by Rowan Oak on Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by robphoto »

tibbitts wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:05 pm
The sensor resolution is less in crop mode, but is the viewfinder (or rear lcd) resolution sufficiently lower than either FF or crop sensor resolution that the view would be indistinguishable?
The display looks the same when you're in crop mode, so much so that I have more than once made the error of thinking I was in full-frame mode, and not understanding why my angle-of-view was less than I expected. (as a professional photographer for 40 years :shock: )
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by Freefun »

I had 5dIV and many other Canons and switched to Sony and Fuji. Happy not to lug around all that weight.
Anyway, talent makes the photographer and not the equipment.
Remember when you wanted what you currently have?
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by GuineaPig »

It's your wife's hobby and will be her camera -- she should decide. I like photography myself, and there's no way I'd want somebody else deciding what camera I got.

So your role can simply be of providing support for her in the research process. Here are some questions for her:
-Does she like the lenses she has?
-If so, is she aware that they will behave differently on a full-frame camera than on her current crop-frame? (The width of the view-angle will be wider -- I'm sure you can find more technical explanations out there.)
-Are there new lenses that she wants in addition to or instead of a camera? How would switching to full-frame affect this?
-Is she aware that there is a recently released version of her current camera, with a new sensor? (The Canon 90d.)
-Would she be willing to sell her current camera lenses (and camera) to switch brands?
-What's her budget?

In photography, as with many hobbies, it's easy to spend money!
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by tibbitts »

robphoto wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:56 am
tibbitts wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:05 pm
The sensor resolution is less in crop mode, but is the viewfinder (or rear lcd) resolution sufficiently lower than either FF or crop sensor resolution that the view would be indistinguishable?
The display looks the same when you're in crop mode, so much so that I have more than once made the error of thinking I was in full-frame mode, and not understanding why my angle-of-view was less than I expected. (as a professional photographer for 40 years :shock: )
Okay so it seems that would be a deciding factor IF you ever use crop lenses - it would be horrible to not have the full viewfinder image. So no FF DSLRs with crop lenses for me. That does kind of kill some of the backward compatibility of the lens mounts.
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by tibbitts »

Freefun wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:08 am I had 5dIV and many other Canons and switched to Sony and Fuji. Happy not to lug around all that weight.
Anyway, talent makes the photographer and not the equipment.
I think equipment matters more than in the film era. I didn't feel my film pictures would have been any better for the 25 years I owned one mid-range SLR. But I know if I upgraded my 2010 APS cameras there are specific images I could capture, or capture better, that I can't now. Of course as with film there is still the size/weight tradeoff.
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by TN_Boy »

tibbitts wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:24 am
Freefun wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:08 am I had 5dIV and many other Canons and switched to Sony and Fuji. Happy not to lug around all that weight.
Anyway, talent makes the photographer and not the equipment.
I think equipment matters more than in the film era. I didn't feel my film pictures would have been any better for the 25 years I owned one mid-range SLR. But I know if I upgraded my 2010 APS cameras there are specific images I could capture, or capture better, that I can't now. Of course as with film there is still the size/weight tradeoff.
I won't speak to film versus digital era, but while I agree with Freefun that talent makes the photographer, improper/low end equipment may hamstring the photographer in some situations.
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by midareff »

"She thinks the auto-focus on the eye is a real nice feature, but at $2500 it comes at a steep price tag. "

That's pretty plain stuff these days as far as auto-focus capability goes. Even the compact Sony's (RX100 m6, m7) do that and the super zoom group (RX10 m4) is up to animal eye auto-focus besides people eye.
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Re: DSLRs: canon 5d IV vs ?

Post by ohai »

Hi, OP. You'd probably get more useful feedback from a camera specific website. However, since you asked, yes I do think it is worth upgrading from APS-C format to full frame. The results for full frame are significantly and noticeably better, especially indoors or in non-ideal lighting. 1) you have more control over depth of field, 2) you can shoot with faster shutter speed in low light (making pictures sharper), and 3) you can use higher ISO without grain. Your wife will definitely notice and probably appreciate these benefits.

However, I don't think the benefit of 5D IV is worth 2x the price over 6D II for most non-professionals. 5D has marginal advantages in resolution, autofocus range, shooting speed, and so on, but only very discerning photographers will notice this. I'd rather spend the $1k difference on lenses. Also, the flipping screen on Canon cameras is very useful - more than people would normally assume I think. 5D is also bigger than 6D, which might matter for people with small hands.

As another note, since no one mentioned it, it's pretty likely that DSLRs will be extinct in the next 10 years, since mirrorless cameras are now better in (almost) every way. Every camera owner has in their mind when they will switch to a mirrorless system, not if. Assuming you are not looking to switch camera brands, Canon has some "ok" full frame mirrorless cameras with apparently very good but expensive native lenses, and I am sure this ecosystem will develop over time. If you're thinking of putting down 5D IV money, I'd think of the long term plan and whether switching now makes sense.
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