morality, kids, tuition etc

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getthatmarshmallow
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Re: morality, kids, tuition etc

Post by getthatmarshmallow » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:50 pm

I think either option can be fine, although my preference is for #1; I think it can be hard to get many of the benefits of college starting at a community college (networking, lifelong friends, for some first experience of independence) and the completion rates for CC->four-year are not always great -- many, many students who start college don't finish, and that percentage is higher at CCs. There are exceptions, and they're likely to be over-represented on Bogleheads, who are both highly motivated, savers, and older than the average college student, meaning they're facing a different economy.

But I'd disagree strongly with incentivizing the cheaper option with the promise of free cash. Ideally, the kid goes to CC, all the credits transfer, and starts off with a nest egg. Also possible that the kid goes to CC, founders, needs to take more time going to school, and spends the tuition dollars on a car. And the perceived unfairness for kid #1 seems to add the potential for a lot of drama.

Beehave
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Re: morality, kids, tuition etc

Post by Beehave » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:16 pm

I teach at a community college near the community where I retired. I've taught at top university programs before that.

Your daughter can receive an excellent education from surprisingly competent and dedicated staffs at a community college.

That said, the downside is that those instructors have to shepherd a remarkably diverse set of students through the course material. The levels of motivation, capability, and background of students in a community college class range, on a scale of zero to one hundred, from close to zero to close to one hundred. It is possible for an outstanding student at the community college to get a solid education in their core courses and to do peer-tutoring in- and outside of classes that reinforces their knowledge and leadership skills. And those core classes may have 28 students instead of the 120 or more at State U. But the odds are that the classes will be less rigorous than those at State U.

So there are pluses and minuses to the community college. My bottom line would be this. If the money is a big concern, go the community college route, understand its nature, and take full advantage of the pluses. If money's not a big concern, how many times is your daughter going to be 19 and 20 years old? If she's responsible and wants to live away from home, then she should be away from home and having the fun and learning experience associated with being away at a good school.

Starfish
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Re: morality, kids, tuition etc

Post by Starfish » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:24 pm

wsiddiqi wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:12 am
However all things being equal I prefer the 4 year option myself since think 4 years of college is a good time to make friends for life and explore

I couldn't agree more with this.
Ideally, education should not be about money. There is a lot more in going to college than learning a trade and taking courses. That age is amazing and will never come back.
Another thing is people around her, competition and role models she will have. There are a lot more high quality people in a good university.

Cycle
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Re: morality, kids, tuition etc

Post by Cycle » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:30 pm

Most of my lifelong friends I met in a dorm freshman year, and then we got a house together junior/senior year.

I'm saving enough for my kids college so he can make the same mistakes I did. Ie party too much and get mediocre grades (albeit in engineering).

Worth every penny (of my parents money).
Never look back unless you are planning to go that way

alfaspider
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Re: morality, kids, tuition etc

Post by alfaspider » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:38 pm

A few issues I see here:

1) $20,000 may sound like an enormous amount of money to an 18 year old, but it's a fairly trivial amount in the grand scheme of things. They may overweight the value of cash compared to the educational setting that best meets their needs (which may or may not be community college). Also, he may not spend the $20k wisely at graduation. A large number of 22 year olds handed $20k will just go out and buy a car (often one that isn't particularly practical) or otherwise blow it.

2) The statistics on students who go to community college with the intent on getting a 4-year degree and actually do so are pretty grim. Of course correlation is not causation, but it's worth keeping in mind that going from CC to a 4-year is not always a smooth transition, and the types of 4-year schools that will transfer all credits may be limited.

3) Even of all the credits transfer, they may not necessarily transfer to his chosen major. He might also miss out on exposure to certain majors. For example, aerospace engineering at my state's flagship state school must be declared as a Freshman, or there is no way to graduate remotely on time because there are certain classes that must be completed Freshman/sophomore years. A CC transfer wanting that major would have to essentially restart college.

4) If your son's friends are all leaving town for college, attending CC and transferring can be socially difficult. Most CC students aren't going to be in active friendship-seeking mode like most 4-year freshmen, and it can be very difficult for a transfer to make friends at a 4-year where social networks are already ingrained after the first year. More than a "nice to have", friend networks can be instrumental to mental health, learning, and future career success.

andypanda
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Re: morality, kids, tuition etc

Post by andypanda » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:53 pm

Oh sure, pick on the community college kids. :)

https://pregnantoncampus.studentsforlif ... mpus/ucla/

"UCLA... Pregnant? Parenting? You are not alone. There are resources on campus and in the community to support you as you seek your college degree."

Fwiw, I went to public Virginia 4-year schools for both undergrad and grad. Heck, I went to elementary school in downtown Baltimore in the '50s.

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leeks
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Re: morality, kids, tuition etc

Post by leeks » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:54 pm

joelly wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:55 am
I won’t give her an option. Go to 4 year college.

My brother-in-law gave his only daughter an option of taking a year off before college. During that time-off, she got pregnant and this week she is giving birth to a boy. She just turn 19 last week. The boy who got her pregnant doesn’t want anything to do with her and the baby. The whole thing is heartbreaking because my niece was a great student.

Just thought I share.
This happens to women at 4 year colleges too....and she will still have plenty of great options for life/college/career, but yes it will be different. And yes it is heartbreaking about the dad's attitude.
Last edited by leeks on Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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leeks
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Re: morality, kids, tuition etc

Post by leeks » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:00 pm

Given that you can afford both, I would not make that offer.
I would only do the community college first if there is some non-financial reason for that to be better for the student. This could be that the student is not mature enough to live away from home, has special needs better met at home, needs better grades to get into decent 4-year-school, has a child, helps care for elderly relative or younger siblings, is unsure about academic motivation, wants to keep working in the family business, has a unique job or intense sports hobby to keep pursuing locally, whatever). Although there are plenty of exceptions, moving out of the family home and attending a 4 year college would be a better experience for *most* students.

stoptothink
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Re: morality, kids, tuition etc

Post by stoptothink » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:04 pm

leeks wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:54 pm
joelly wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:55 am
I won’t give her an option. Go to 4 year college.

My brother-in-law gave his only daughter an option of taking a year off before college. During that time-off, she got pregnant and this week she is giving birth to a boy. She just turn 19 last week. The boy who got her pregnant doesn’t want anything to do with her and the baby. The whole thing is heartbreaking because my niece was a great student.

Just thought I share.
This happens to women at 4 year colleges too....
+1 I know a few dozen women who this happened to, at the local university. This is the case for at least 4 of my neighbors. I fail to see how chances for this happening would be any lower at a university.

smitcat
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Re: morality, kids, tuition etc

Post by smitcat » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:25 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:04 pm
leeks wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:54 pm
joelly wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:55 am
I won’t give her an option. Go to 4 year college.

My brother-in-law gave his only daughter an option of taking a year off before college. During that time-off, she got pregnant and this week she is giving birth to a boy. She just turn 19 last week. The boy who got her pregnant doesn’t want anything to do with her and the baby. The whole thing is heartbreaking because my niece was a great student.

Just thought I share.
This happens to women at 4 year colleges too....
+1 I know a few dozen women who this happened to, at the local university. This is the case for at least 4 of my neighbors. I fail to see how chances for this happening would be any lower at a university.

"+1 I know a few dozen women who this happened to, at the local university. This is the case for at least 4 of my neighbors"
Interestingly - since our daughter just recently passed this age group and has so many friends we cannot name one that this has happened to.
Not even one that is known to one of her friends in their larger circle of acquaintances. That circle includes the 22 girls she just ran the NY marathon with, the girls she stays in contact with from undergrad, from grad school from her job placements and all of the ones she know and works with in her summer job.
YMMV

Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: morality, kids, tuition etc

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:59 pm

Stinky wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:59 am
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:54 am
RickBoglehead wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:13 am
Giving an 18 year old that choice, when they are not really equipped to understand the ramifications, is unfair.
Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

Unfortunately, 18 year olds get to make choices that will affect the rest of their lives. Don’t add to the pressure. 18 year olds like to think they’re “adulting,” and as the child of a BH, they probably will feel encouraged to pick option 1, as the option of apparent maturity.

“30 is the new 18.” An exaggeration, perhaps, but trending.
+1

18-year olds think that they're so darned mature. (I certainly did.) But they're not equipped to make the best long-term choices for themselves, because they haven't yet had the life experiences that should inform their decisions.

Four-year college is generally better, presuming that it doesn't put undue financial stress on the student and parents.
There are many in their early 20's who think they are mature as well. Also not that well equipped to make the best long term choices for themselves for the same reasons, lack of life experiences that should inform their decisions.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

randomguy
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Re: morality, kids, tuition etc

Post by randomguy » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:04 pm

smitcat wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:25 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:04 pm
leeks wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:54 pm
joelly wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:55 am
I won’t give her an option. Go to 4 year college.

My brother-in-law gave his only daughter an option of taking a year off before college. During that time-off, she got pregnant and this week she is giving birth to a boy. She just turn 19 last week. The boy who got her pregnant doesn’t want anything to do with her and the baby. The whole thing is heartbreaking because my niece was a great student.

Just thought I share.
This happens to women at 4 year colleges too....
+1 I know a few dozen women who this happened to, at the local university. This is the case for at least 4 of my neighbors. I fail to see how chances for this happening would be any lower at a university.

"+1 I know a few dozen women who this happened to, at the local university. This is the case for at least 4 of my neighbors"
Interestingly - since our daughter just recently passed this age group and has so many friends we cannot name one that this has happened to.
Not even one that is known to one of her friends in their larger circle of acquaintances. That circle includes the 22 girls she just ran the NY marathon with, the girls she stays in contact with from undergrad, from grad school from her job placements and all of the ones she know and works with in her summer job.
YMMV
There is a lot of clustering in these type of stats and things like acceptability of plan B and abortion can also change the visibility. I look at my family and about 1/3rd of my cousins had this happen to. But they all had the same parent (6 girls). Obviously not getting pregnant at 19 wasn't something that was frowned on. Of my college per group(probably 100+ people that I would have heard about), didn't happen to anyone.

I doubt the college path choice has much of a direct effect on this outcome. Same thing with stuff like drugs. It happens everywhere and if it does you wish you made a different choice.

stoptothink
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Re: morality, kids, tuition etc

Post by stoptothink » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:07 pm

smitcat wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:25 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:04 pm
leeks wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:54 pm
joelly wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:55 am
I won’t give her an option. Go to 4 year college.

My brother-in-law gave his only daughter an option of taking a year off before college. During that time-off, she got pregnant and this week she is giving birth to a boy. She just turn 19 last week. The boy who got her pregnant doesn’t want anything to do with her and the baby. The whole thing is heartbreaking because my niece was a great student.

Just thought I share.
This happens to women at 4 year colleges too....
+1 I know a few dozen women who this happened to, at the local university. This is the case for at least 4 of my neighbors. I fail to see how chances for this happening would be any lower at a university.

"+1 I know a few dozen women who this happened to, at the local university. This is the case for at least 4 of my neighbors"
Interestingly - since our daughter just recently passed this age group and has so many friends we cannot name one that this has happened to.
Not even one that is known to one of her friends in their larger circle of acquaintances. That circle includes the 22 girls she just ran the NY marathon with, the girls she stays in contact with from undergrad, from grad school from her job placements and all of the ones she know and works with in her summer job.
YMMV
Off the top of my head, that represents at least 3 of my employee's wives, almost every single one of my wife's friends, and my own wife, who completed all of one semester before meeting her 1st husband and dropping out (university). Also, one of my sister-in-laws (also, university). FWIW, all these women married before having a baby, but they dropped out of 4yr universities because of a guy they met, and never returned (my wife did, 10yrs later). I would love to see some evidence that a young women is more likely to get pregnant attending a CC than a university. That was just an oddly irrelevant statement.
Last edited by stoptothink on Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: morality, kids, tuition etc

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:08 pm

Offering $20,000 in exchange for not attending the first two years of a senior college is a poor offer.
The first two years is when most kids are discovering what avenues they wish to pursue as a career, the senior college will expose the first/second year students to juniors and seniors in the fields they find most suitable to their talents and nature. They will not have that exposure in a 2 year community college. The career center of a senior college is also likely to be more advanced than that of a community college, major companies are not visiting the campus of a community college, they ARE visiting the campus of a well known senior college.

Presenting a $20,000 (as you will) gift, will turn out to be the worse investment you will ever make. In any event, regardless of what you do, just reading your first paragraph, the morality issue is the one you have, not the child. Read your words "this will benefit me". Good Luck!
Last edited by Grt2bOutdoors on Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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randomguy
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Re: morality, kids, tuition etc

Post by randomguy » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:11 pm

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:59 pm
Stinky wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:59 am
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:54 am
RickBoglehead wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:13 am
Giving an 18 year old that choice, when they are not really equipped to understand the ramifications, is unfair.
Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

Unfortunately, 18 year olds get to make choices that will affect the rest of their lives. Don’t add to the pressure. 18 year olds like to think they’re “adulting,” and as the child of a BH, they probably will feel encouraged to pick option 1, as the option of apparent maturity.

“30 is the new 18.” An exaggeration, perhaps, but trending.
+1

18-year olds think that they're so darned mature. (I certainly did.) But they're not equipped to make the best long-term choices for themselves, because they haven't yet had the life experiences that should inform their decisions.

Four-year college is generally better, presuming that it doesn't put undue financial stress on the student and parents.
There are many in their early 20's who think they are mature as well. Also not that well equipped to make the best long term choices for themselves for the same reasons, lack of life experiences that should inform their decisions.
Lot of people in their 30, 40s, 50s, 60s,... think they are mature and have enough experience to make long term choices. A lot of them are wrong.😆

There isn't remotely enough info to make this decision accurately. You make a guess and go with it. You don't mature by aging. You mature by living. College is a relatively safe way for a lot of kids to get the living experience. Some don't need it. For others it is too much. You have to guess what is best for your kid.

smitcat
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Re: morality, kids, tuition etc

Post by smitcat » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:17 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:07 pm
smitcat wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:25 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:04 pm
leeks wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:54 pm
joelly wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:55 am
I won’t give her an option. Go to 4 year college.

My brother-in-law gave his only daughter an option of taking a year off before college. During that time-off, she got pregnant and this week she is giving birth to a boy. She just turn 19 last week. The boy who got her pregnant doesn’t want anything to do with her and the baby. The whole thing is heartbreaking because my niece was a great student.

Just thought I share.
This happens to women at 4 year colleges too....
+1 I know a few dozen women who this happened to, at the local university. This is the case for at least 4 of my neighbors. I fail to see how chances for this happening would be any lower at a university.

"+1 I know a few dozen women who this happened to, at the local university. This is the case for at least 4 of my neighbors"
Interestingly - since our daughter just recently passed this age group and has so many friends we cannot name one that this has happened to.
Not even one that is known to one of her friends in their larger circle of acquaintances. That circle includes the 22 girls she just ran the NY marathon with, the girls she stays in contact with from undergrad, from grad school from her job placements and all of the ones she know and works with in her summer job.
YMMV
Off the top of my head, that represents at least 3 of my employee's wives, almost every single one of my wife's friends, and my own wife, who completed all of one semester before meeting her 1st husband and dropping out (university). Also, one of my sister-in-laws (also, university). FWIW, all these women married before having a baby, but they dropped out of 4yr universities because of a guy they met, and never returned (my wife did, 10yrs later). I would love to see some evidence that a young women is more likely to get pregnant attending a CC than a university. That was just an oddly irrelevant statement.
Just a very stark drastically different set of statistics that we have not seen - whether or not CC's are significant the fact that this issue would be common or not appears very variable by some set of parameters.
Kinda glad we were/are not aware that this was such a large issue.

smitcat
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Re: morality, kids, tuition etc

Post by smitcat » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:19 pm

randomguy wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:04 pm
smitcat wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:25 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:04 pm
leeks wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:54 pm
joelly wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:55 am
I won’t give her an option. Go to 4 year college.

My brother-in-law gave his only daughter an option of taking a year off before college. During that time-off, she got pregnant and this week she is giving birth to a boy. She just turn 19 last week. The boy who got her pregnant doesn’t want anything to do with her and the baby. The whole thing is heartbreaking because my niece was a great student.

Just thought I share.
This happens to women at 4 year colleges too....
+1 I know a few dozen women who this happened to, at the local university. This is the case for at least 4 of my neighbors. I fail to see how chances for this happening would be any lower at a university.

"+1 I know a few dozen women who this happened to, at the local university. This is the case for at least 4 of my neighbors"
Interestingly - since our daughter just recently passed this age group and has so many friends we cannot name one that this has happened to.
Not even one that is known to one of her friends in their larger circle of acquaintances. That circle includes the 22 girls she just ran the NY marathon with, the girls she stays in contact with from undergrad, from grad school from her job placements and all of the ones she know and works with in her summer job.
YMMV
There is a lot of clustering in these type of stats and things like acceptability of plan B and abortion can also change the visibility. I look at my family and about 1/3rd of my cousins had this happen to. But they all had the same parent (6 girls). Obviously not getting pregnant at 19 wasn't something that was frowned on. Of my college per group(probably 100+ people that I would have heard about), didn't happen to anyone.

I doubt the college path choice has much of a direct effect on this outcome. Same thing with stuff like drugs. It happens everywhere and if it does you wish you made a different choice.
There is no reason to think you are not correct with your assumptions - I am just really surprised at these 'statistics' and glad we are not aware of them.

downshiftme
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Re: morality, kids, tuition etc

Post by downshiftme » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:46 pm

How well do you know what the Community College offers in terms of academics and college social life? In my local area, the Community Colleges are often suggested as a 2 year program that can transfer to a 4 year state school but the actual quality of the classes at the Community College is remedial at best. Aside from some specialized vocational credit classes, both of my kids took some Community College classes while they were still in high school and easily advanced to the top level classes offered in both math and science. Had they wanted to use the 2 year program before advancing to a 4 year school, there would have been no classes in either math or science available to them that they hadn't already mastered.

Also. the total college experience is a lot more than just the academics. By spending all 4 years on campus of a 4 year college they were able to explore much richer social and activity options such as drama and music than would have been available at the Community College. They also benefited greatly from the availability of classes in fields of interest that had nothing to do with their ultimate majors. A larger 4 year school has a much wider range of classes and a much larger scope for finding out about fields you may never have even realized existed.

I strongly suggest that good students will have a much richer and better educational experience spending 4 years on a university (or at least 4-year college) campus than they would have with 2 years of Community College and 2 years of transfer to the "big" school.

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Re: morality, kids, tuition etc

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