AWD Camry

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sport
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AWD Camry

Post by sport » Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:50 pm

Starting in the spring, Toyota will be offering an AWD Camry (and Avalon). Since so many Bogleheads have stated preference for the Camry, this may be of interest to the Boglehead community.

https://pressroom.toyota.com/get-a-grip ... ve-sedans/

Trader Joe
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by Trader Joe » Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:54 pm

sport wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:50 pm
Starting in the spring, Toyota will be offering an AWD Camry (and Avalon). Since so many Bogleheads have stated preference for the Camry, this may be of interest to the Boglehead community.

https://pressroom.toyota.com/get-a-grip ... ve-sedans/
Thank you very much for this information. But no, I would never, ever purchase an AWD car (Camry/Avalon).

I have own a AWD Toyota Sienna, which is much, much more practical.

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sport
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by sport » Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:30 pm

Trader Joe wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:54 pm
sport wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:50 pm
Starting in the spring, Toyota will be offering an AWD Camry (and Avalon). Since so many Bogleheads have stated preference for the Camry, this may be of interest to the Boglehead community.

https://pressroom.toyota.com/get-a-grip ... ve-sedans/
Thank you very much for this information. But no, I would never, ever purchase an AWD car (Camry/Avalon).

I have own a AWD Toyota Sienna, which is much, much more practical.
It depends on your wants and needs. I would never buy a minivan.

Helo80
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by Helo80 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:51 pm

AWD is cool and all, but I'd pretty much avoid it unless you're in a climate that receives a lot of rain and/or really bad weather all the time.

AWD systems add to the bottom cost of the vehicle, are more complex systems that cost more to repair when they break, consume more gas, and even in bad weather, don't kick on that much.

I'm generally the BH member here that gets triggered when people poo-poo increased safety features on newer cars under the guise that an attentive driver will avoid most any wreck.... but, I'm not 100% convinced on the literature behind AWD unless you live in a climate with bad weather.

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Re: AWD Camry

Post by stoptothink » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:27 pm

Helo80 wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:51 pm
AWD is cool and all, but I'd pretty much avoid it unless you're in a climate that receives a lot of rain and/or really bad weather all the time.

AWD systems add to the bottom cost of the vehicle, are more complex systems that cost more to repair when they break, consume more gas, and even in bad weather, don't kick on that much.

I'm generally the BH member here that gets triggered when people poo-poo increased safety features on newer cars under the guise that an attentive driver will avoid most any wreck.... but, I'm not 100% convinced on the literature behind AWD unless you live in a climate with bad weather.
+1, as somebody who lives in the mountains with snow half the year. AWD is very handy for a small subset of people whose driving conditions warrant it, completely unnecessary for 90% of the people who buy AWD vehicles.

7eight9
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by 7eight9 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:38 pm

My MIL has a Mark X --- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mark_X. She feels much safer drivng an AWD car with snow tires.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.

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StormShadow
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by StormShadow » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:47 pm

Lived in Boston for 3 years using a FWD Camry. Was able to get through all but the worst blizzards. Those snow storms I wouldn’t try, I seriously doubt most AWD sedans would be able to handle anyhow.

Rudedog
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by Rudedog » Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:22 pm

Snow tires

Starfish
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by Starfish » Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:52 am

Almost nobody needs AWD. I go in mountains in the winter all the time. I did it on east coast, I did on west coast, in Canada, Colordo, Utah etc and I have never felt the need for AWD.
Good tires, on the other hand, are essential.

andypanda
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by andypanda » Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:40 am

Interesting addition to the lineup, but I don't know if my wife will want to give up the 268 hp V6 in her Avalon Touring after driving it for 3 years. She used to drive 4 cylinder Camrys and put a few hundred thousand miles on them, so I suppose she'd be open to a 200 hp Avalon. For now we're talking about a small Lexus for her in a couple of years.

Having owned a 2001 Forester with AWD and a limited slip differential on the rear axle, I wonder if I'd find the Toyota AWD system as useful and responsive in everyday driving. With the 50/50 front/rear power split I couldn't make the Forester spin a tire when turning from a dead stop onto a paved road from a gravel road. It just wouldn't do it. Wouldn't do it in the rain. It wouldn't spin a tire on wet crosswalk paint at a stop sign. We get a lot of rain and heavy thunderstorms here, as well as a fair amount of icy snow and just plain ice in the winter, so improved traction is nice. Otoh, when everybody else is stuck and sliding and spinning around like crazed flatlanders it's better to just stay home.
The AWD on my 2010 Highlander was useful too, but that system also provided a little power to the rear axle at all times. I'll have to drive the new system sometime and see what I think.

Meanwhile, I think I'll keep driving my 2016 4Runner. It's a RWD body on frame truck that gets around just fine in the snow. Of course I grew up driving RWD cars in the snow back in the pre-seatbelt good old days. :) The dual-range part-time 4WD is good for driving on the beach and pulling my fishing boat up over muddy river banks and slick ramps. It's really useful for parking in snowbanks left in town by the plows. Nobody else wants to park up on them.

Oh well, car shopping is inexpensive fun if you don't buy anything.

Edited to add: I agree completely about having good tires for snow, ice and standing/running water. I put Michelin Premiers on her Avalon and Defenders on the truck. Great tires so far.

sambb
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by sambb » Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:48 am

people say awd costs more over time - how much over 100k miles?

Helo80
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by Helo80 » Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:59 am

sambb wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:48 am
people say awd costs more over time - how much over 100k miles?
Depends on the car.

AWD adds more weight to a vehicle and since you're delivering power to four wheels, you can expect maybe a 1 MPG drop. Furthermore, AWD systems tend to be a bit more to fix when they break down. That being said, many cars offer extended warranties beyond the standard 3yr/36k mile bumper to bumper warranties on the powertrain.... so, your AWD system and transfer case "should" be covered.

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whodidntante
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by whodidntante » Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:03 am

Cool. I'll try to remember that my car can still stop in much shorter distances than the AWD Camry on either snow-covered or completely dry pavement.

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Re: AWD Camry

Post by ralph124cf » Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:07 pm

I just passed down my 2011 Avalon FWD. With the V-6 and 270 HP, the front wheels would spin enthusiastically accelerating from rest if the pavement was at all damp. I did have good tires.

The Toyota release says that the AWD will only have the 4 cylinder engine, but that seems a little anemic for the Avalon, which is a reasonably big car.

Ralph

bh7785
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by bh7785 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:18 am

Good tires are worth so much more than AWD.

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dm200
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by dm200 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:34 am

I just do not get the appeal of AWD or 4WD.

I grew up in snow country - back when all vehicles were rear wheel drive and before radial tires. We put snow tires on the rear. Once you learned how to drive in the snow, we survived OK.

A few decades later, we had all weather radial tires and most cars were front wheel drive - big improvement over the past.

While I no longer live in big snow country - we do get some snow - and we do very well with front wheel drive cars and all weather radials. For many years, as well, we made car trips in the winter back to snow country - and we did very well with front wheel drive cars and all weather radials.

On those very infrequent occasions when our front wheel drive - all weather radials - are not sufficient - we stay home. While AWD or 4WD vehicles can get through - I believe only a very small percentage of drivers really need AWD or 4WD. There are several, in my opinion, disadvantages to 4WD or AWD vehicles: 1. More costly to purchase and maintain; and 2. very false sense of safety when driving on snowy and icy roads.

I recall a few years ago when we were hit with a big snowstorm, we did fine with our front wheel drive car. When going up one street - going up the hill - we encountered a driver in a large car trying to get out of where he had been parked during the snowstorm. He was "stuck" - could not move the car front or back. His problem was that he "gunned it" trying to go forward and then backward. The wheels spun on the packed snow and just spun. I stopped our car and offered to help. I got into the car and "rocked" it slowly forward and then backward - and within a minute or two pulled his car onto the main part of the street. "Slow and easy" is the key to not getting stuck in the snow!

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Re: AWD Camry

Post by jebmke » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:44 am

dm200 wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:34 am
I just do not get the appeal of AWD or 4WD.

I grew up in snow country - back when all vehicles were rear wheel drive and before radial tires. We put snow tires on the rear. Once you learned how to drive in the snow, we survived OK.
I mainly use my 4WD when I am on a particularly bad un-paved country road or off the road. This is typically in areas where there is no cell service and no people. Infrequently I have kicked on 4WD to get down my driveway in heavy snow (it isn't plowed) but I wouldn't get it just for that.

I wouldn't have any use for it in a sedan though. The frame is too low for these situations anyway. The Camry seems especially low.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

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alpenglow
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by alpenglow » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:56 am

I have to agree with other posters regarding AWD. I went to school in upstate NY with a rear wheel drive car. As winter approached, I got snow tires and they made a world of difference. I also practiced in parking lots and learned a lot about driving in snow. The weather never kept me from going out.

Skill + Snow Tires > AWD

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Re: AWD Camry

Post by dm200 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:29 pm

alpenglow wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:56 am
I have to agree with other posters regarding AWD. I went to school in upstate NY with a rear wheel drive car. As winter approached, I got snow tires and they made a world of difference. I also practiced in parking lots and learned a lot about driving in snow. The weather never kept me from going out.
Skill + Snow Tires > AWD
Yes - I agree that it is very helpful to "practice" - getting the "feel" of the snow!

In that same area, for a few years I had a 1967 VW Beetle - put snow tires on rear during the winter.

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dm200
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by dm200 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:31 pm

I wouldn't have any use for it in a sedan though. The frame is too low for these situations anyway. The Camry seems especially low.
Yes! My 1998 Camry is especially low! Other model years, for some reason, do not seem as low.

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Re: AWD Camry

Post by jebmke » Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:32 pm

dm200 wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:31 pm
I wouldn't have any use for it in a sedan though. The frame is too low for these situations anyway. The Camry seems especially low.
Yes! My 1998 Camry is especially low! Other model years, for some reason, do not seem as low.
my wife has a 2018 Camry hybrid. It is quite low, which makes it a bit tricky to get in and out of with a sore back
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

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dm200
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by dm200 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:44 pm

jebmke wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:32 pm
dm200 wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:31 pm
I wouldn't have any use for it in a sedan though. The frame is too low for these situations anyway. The Camry seems especially low.
Yes! My 1998 Camry is especially low! Other model years, for some reason, do not seem as low.
my wife has a 2018 Camry hybrid. It is quite low, which makes it a bit tricky to get in and out of with a sore back
Our 2002 Camry SE 6 cylinder, though, seems higher and has a more "firm" ride.

kjvmartin
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by kjvmartin » Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:55 pm

In my local city, they do not plow the neighborhoods. I used to be in those neighborhoods regularly for work. My FWD car couldn’t traverse some of those streets, was prone to getting stuck. Good Michelin tires. Streetside parking was also a chore.

After getting my first AWD CUV, I would not go back to a car or FWD

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Re: AWD Camry

Post by jimmyrules712 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:01 pm

I have found 2 types of situations where AWD is nice to have. The first is situations where you sometimes get deep snow and roads don't get cleared right away and the second is situations where the vehicle has lots of acceleration power and AWD reduces how easily the tires spin when accelerating hard.

Neither situations apply to a Camry. Camry's are too low for the deep snow and too slow to need the traction for acceleration.

Hard pass for me. Waste of money.

Atilla
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by Atilla » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:27 pm

It will be interesting to see what percentage of Camrys sold will be AWD models.

For some people(like us), not having all wheel drive is a deal breaker.
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dm200
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by dm200 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:29 pm

Atilla wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:27 pm
It will be interesting to see what percentage of Camrys sold will be AWD models.
For some people(like us), not having all wheel drive is a deal breaker.
Yes!

I could be wrong - but I just do not see Camry owners as really into AWD, nor AWD folks into buying Camrys.

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Re: AWD Camry

Post by Starfish » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:33 pm

kjvmartin wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:55 pm
In my local city, they do not plow the neighborhoods. I used to be in those neighborhoods regularly for work. My FWD car couldn’t traverse some of those streets, was prone to getting stuck. Good Michelin tires. Streetside parking was also a chore.

After getting my first AWD CUV, I would not go back to a car or FWD
Are you sure is the AWD and not the ground clearance that comes with a CUV, weight and tires?

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Re: AWD Camry

Post by andypanda » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:13 pm

Rereading the promo statement, the new Camry AWD system shouldn't hurt the gas mileage at all. The AWD car will only weigh 165 pounds more and the driveshaft decouples from the drive train at the front when AWD isn't required. That's different than the full-time 50-50 systems or the older systems that are full-time 90% front/10% rear until the rear axle requires more power.

I'm trying to recall when Toyota made the original AWD Camrys. Was it '88 to '91?

andypanda
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by andypanda » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:22 pm

Now I remember, it was the All-Trac. It was full-time AWD with a dash button to lock the center differential and make the f/r power split 50/50.

I think they used it on the Celica and the Corolla, too.

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Re: AWD Camry

Post by lazydavid » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:38 pm

andypanda wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:13 pm
Rereading the promo statement, the new Camry AWD system shouldn't hurt the gas mileage at all. The AWD car will only weigh 165 pounds more and the driveshaft decouples from the drive train at the front when AWD isn't required. That's different than the full-time 50-50 systems or the older systems that are full-time 90% front/10% rear until the rear axle requires more power.
The press release is unfortunately vaguely-worded:
Toyota wrote:Notably, when AWD isn’t needed, such as on long highway stretches, the electromagnetic controlled coupling on the front of the rear drive axle can disengage the propeller shaft from the differential to prioritize fuel efficiency.
But this actually is not what it means. Where they say "at the front of the rear drive axle", they mean at the back end of the car. The transfer case in the front will always be driving the prop shaft. There's an electromechanical clutch attached to the rear differential:

Image
(picture is from a tech article on the Rav4, which is where the Camry/Avalon AWD system is sourced)

Radjob4me
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by Radjob4me » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:40 pm

As an owner of both a Camry and an AWD vehicle, this car will appeal to me, so thanks for posting.

I live in western New England and commute through the mountains multiple times a week. And as an MD, I need to get where I am going whatever the conditions. I grew up here and also lived in the lake effect band in central NY for 4 years.

The only folks who will say that AWD is not better are folks who have not owned an AWD for regular winter use. Over years of experience with both, there is no doubt in my mind that "AWD + skill + snow tires" is absolutely better than any other combo when you have to get where you are going safely. I have a Volvo S60 AWD, Camry FWD and Honda Odyssey FWD, all with snow tires and whenever there is a real storm I take the Volvo. The Camry and Honda are fine most of the time but in no way are they better in the worst conditions.

bobolinx
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by bobolinx » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:21 pm

Living in New England.... Driving into Cambridge for work.... I found that mostly the roads are salted/plowed and okay. But...the side roads may be unplowed/untreated for a couple of days and I needed the AWD for parking and avoiding other vehicles. Starting from stop to go up a hill? "Forgetaboutit" without AWD. Passing a driver with no snow tires going up a hill? Awesome but scary with AWD. I have a CRV, not much power, but just enough to be able to pull over into a snow bank and get back out when a large truck or SUV is hogging the center of the road. I love that there are more choices available for people who want it!

stoptothink
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by stoptothink » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:36 pm

Radjob4me wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:40 pm
As an owner of both a Camry and an AWD vehicle, this car will appeal to me, so thanks for posting.

I live in western New England and commute through the mountains multiple times a week. And as an MD, I need to get where I am going whatever the conditions. I grew up here and also lived in the lake effect band in central NY for 4 years.

The only folks who will say that AWD is not better are folks who have not owned an AWD for regular winter use. Over years of experience with both, there is no doubt in my mind that "AWD + skill + snow tires" is absolutely better than any other combo when you have to get where you are going safely. I have a Volvo S60 AWD, Camry FWD and Honda Odyssey FWD, all with snow tires and whenever there is a real storm I take the Volvo. The Camry and Honda are fine most of the time but in no way are they better in the worst conditions.
As someone who has owned an AWD vehicle in a mountainous snowy area, let me ask you, have you ever had a FWD vehicle on snow tires? Yes, ultimately "AWD + skill + snow tires" is the best combination, but AWD is by a huge margin the least important factor and for 95% of people who buy AWD vehicles, totally irrelevant. It's remarkable how much better my jetta on budget snow tires (Federal Himalayas) is in snow than my mom's or brother's outbacks or my wife's previous A4 on all-seasons. This isn't just anecdotal, it has been evaluated many many times; just one of countless evaluations:

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/mag ... /index.htm

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Re: AWD Camry

Post by elderwise » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:45 pm

Pretty soon we will have a AWD corolla, then it will be endorsed by BH officially :sharebeer

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Re: AWD Camry

Post by Radjob4me » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:47 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:36 pm
Radjob4me wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:40 pm
As an owner of both a Camry and an AWD vehicle, this car will appeal to me, so thanks for posting.

I live in western New England and commute through the mountains multiple times a week. And as an MD, I need to get where I am going whatever the conditions. I grew up here and also lived in the lake effect band in central NY for 4 years.

The only folks who will say that AWD is not better are folks who have not owned an AWD for regular winter use. Over years of experience with both, there is no doubt in my mind that "AWD + skill + snow tires" is absolutely better than any other combo when you have to get where you are going safely. I have a Volvo S60 AWD, Camry FWD and Honda Odyssey FWD, all with snow tires and whenever there is a real storm I take the Volvo. The Camry and Honda are fine most of the time but in no way are they better in the worst conditions.
As someone who has owned an AWD vehicle in a mountainous snowy area, let me ask you, have you ever had a FWD vehicle on snow tires? Yes, ultimately "AWD + skill + snow tires" is the best combination, but AWD is by a huge margin the least important factor and for 95% of people who buy AWD vehicles, totally irrelevant. It's remarkable how much better my jetta on budget snow tires (Federal Himalayas) is in snow than my mom's or brother's outbacks or my wife's previous A4 on all-seasons. This isn't just anecdotal, it has been evaluated many many times; just one of countless evaluations:

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/mag ... /index.htm
From above: I have a Volvo S60 AWD, Camry FWD and Honda Odyssey FWD, all with snow tires and whenever there is a real storm I take the Volvo.

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Re: AWD Camry

Post by Starfish » Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:00 pm

I don't think there is any contradiction here.
AWD + snow tires + some skill is the winner.
But the difference between AWD and FWD much much smaller than the difference made by tires and is not that useful to most people.

Kagord
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by Kagord » Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:08 pm

I need both AWD + Snow Tires to make it up my driveway when it has a sheet of ice on it, and this barely works, lol. 4WD with lockers is the best.

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Re: AWD Camry

Post by dbr » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:29 am

Kagord wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:08 pm
I need both AWD + Snow Tires to make it up my driveway when it has a sheet of ice on it, and this barely works, lol. 4WD with lockers is the best.
Maybe you should sand the driveway.

SpaghettiMonster
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by SpaghettiMonster » Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:08 pm

Having an AWD drive isn't only applicable to wintry regions. I live in south TX and we haven't seen snow for several years. I love my AWD car and will never go back to FWD or RWD. It puts the engine power down on the road so effectively. It is noticeable when I get a loaner without AWD and my tires chirp and skid when starting from a stop and when the rear starts to slip some. I drive much more confidently in the rain as well. If I were in the market for a Camry, I would go with the AWD.

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Re: AWD Camry

Post by smackboy1 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:35 pm

Toyota is taking a page out of their competition's playbook and offering AWD through it's passenger vehicle range.

I've owned and driven many of the popular brands and types of AWD and even a 4x4 truck including: Toyota, Audi, Mercedes, Range Rover, Porsche, BMW, and Acura. For sure, in snow and ice, winter tires are more important than AWD. The other thing is that not all AWD are created equal. Most of Toyota's passenger vehicle AWD is of the "slip and grip" design. This means that the car is primarily FWD but will send a % of power to the rear wheels only when the front wheels slip. The amount of torque it can send to the rear is probably pretty limited. It's a reactive system that is meant to provide a small margin of increased traction in bad weather. But it doesn't offer the same performance as full time AWD systems like Torsen or proactive systems like SH-AWD. My 2007 Sienna AWD drove mostly like a FWD with plenty of torque steer and understeer. The AWD was only really noticeable accelerating away in snow and ice.

Here's pretty good video explaining Toyota's existing systems. I would imagine the new Camry and Avalon systems are similar.

https://youtu.be/rWxzkY8_D3g
Disclaimer: nothing written here should be taken as legal advice, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

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Re: AWD Camry

Post by Leesbro63 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:43 pm

Starfish wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:52 am
Almost nobody needs AWD. I go in mountains in the winter all the time. I did it on east coast, I did on west coast, in Canada, Colordo, Utah etc and I have never felt the need for AWD.
Good tires, on the other hand, are essential.
You’ve never lived in Pittsburgh.

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Re: AWD Camry

Post by Leesbro63 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:51 pm

jimmyrules712 wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:01 pm
I have found 2 types of situations where AWD is nice to have. The first is situations where you sometimes get deep snow and roads don't get cleared right away...
Or the roads NEVER get cleared. This. The City of Pittsburgh doesn’t ever clean most of the non-major roads. AWD makes the difference in the city, esp with regard to getting in and out of “iceberg” parallel parking spots, formed from the freeze-thaw cycle of never-removed snow. This is the norm here. I remember rocking the car back and forth, before AWD, rapidly engaging/abusing the transmission from D to R and back. Burns up tires as well, as the spin trying to get enough momentum to pull out of the glazed over iceberg. Anyone poo-pooing AWD has never lived in Pittsburgh. AWD might be the single biggest quality of life booster here since electricity.

Starfish
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by Starfish » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:19 am

Leesbro63 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:43 pm
Starfish wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:52 am
Almost nobody needs AWD. I go in mountains in the winter all the time. I did it on east coast, I did on west coast, in Canada, Colordo, Utah etc and I have never felt the need for AWD.
Good tires, on the other hand, are essential.
You’ve never lived in Pittsburgh.
No, but I lived in NY and went plenty of times in Vermont, New Hampshire and especially upstate new Canadian border.
Toronto and Montreal are full of FWD cars.
I remember rocking the car back and forth, before AWD,
Because of the tires, not only AWD. I have seen many many AWD cars stuck in the parking spot, spinning helplessly all 4 wheels digging themselves deeper in the snow.
Manual transmission makes rocking much easier. 1- 2 times only. I have owned 7 cars but none with automatic transmission.

andypanda
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Location: Richmond, Virginia

Re: AWD Camry

Post by andypanda » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:32 am

"No, but I lived in NY and went plenty of times in Vermont, New Hampshire and especially upstate new Canadian border.
Toronto and Montreal are full of FWD cars."

Sure, they have snow plows and salt/sand trucks. Come down to eastern Virginia or North Carolina. We barely have enough equipment to treat and plow the major roads. We don't have enough bad weather to make the expenditure practical, but our two or three snowstorms a year are major traffic events.

Fwiw, my AWD 2010 Highlander Limited was much easier to drive on snow/ice if I turned the ESC and Traction Control off.

CurledMoss
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by CurledMoss » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:49 am

stoptothink wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:27 pm
Helo80 wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:51 pm
AWD is cool and all, but I'd pretty much avoid it unless you're in a climate that receives a lot of rain and/or really bad weather all the time.

AWD systems add to the bottom cost of the vehicle, are more complex systems that cost more to repair when they break, consume more gas, and even in bad weather, don't kick on that much.

I'm generally the BH member here that gets triggered when people poo-poo increased safety features on newer cars under the guise that an attentive driver will avoid most any wreck.... but, I'm not 100% convinced on the literature behind AWD unless you live in a climate with bad weather.
+1, as somebody who lives in the mountains with snow half the year. AWD is very handy for a small subset of people whose driving conditions warrant it, completely unnecessary for 90% of the people who buy AWD vehicles.
I'm a snow plow driver for MnDot and a City in Minnesota. I've seen how bad them roads can get and that AWD with the extra ground clearance is nice for everyone. Neccessary? Probably not. But damn nice.

stoptothink
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by stoptothink » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:53 am

Starfish wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:19 am
Because of the tires, not only AWD. I have seen many many AWD cars stuck in the parking spot, spinning helplessly all 4 wheels digging themselves deeper in the snow.
A few years ago my brother brought his family (from California) to visit us and ski (in Utah). He figured he was OK because his E63 wagon was AWD. He got stuck 3 separate times in less than a week, twice I had to drive up in my little Hyundai accent with snow tires to help him. The next year they actually moved here and he thought an outback would be a more suitable vehicle. In his first winter he got stuck, and once again I drove up in my fwd accent to help him. A few months later he slid through a stop sign and rear-ended another vehicle. He finally bought his first set of snow tires.

dbr
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by dbr » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:03 am

CurledMoss wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:49 am
stoptothink wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:27 pm
Helo80 wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:51 pm
AWD is cool and all, but I'd pretty much avoid it unless you're in a climate that receives a lot of rain and/or really bad weather all the time.

AWD systems add to the bottom cost of the vehicle, are more complex systems that cost more to repair when they break, consume more gas, and even in bad weather, don't kick on that much.

I'm generally the BH member here that gets triggered when people poo-poo increased safety features on newer cars under the guise that an attentive driver will avoid most any wreck.... but, I'm not 100% convinced on the literature behind AWD unless you live in a climate with bad weather.
+1, as somebody who lives in the mountains with snow half the year. AWD is very handy for a small subset of people whose driving conditions warrant it, completely unnecessary for 90% of the people who buy AWD vehicles.
I'm a snow plow driver for MnDot and a City in Minnesota. I've seen how bad them roads can get and that AWD with the extra ground clearance is nice for everyone. Neccessary? Probably not. But damn nice.
That is a valid point. But AWD and higher ground clearance don't always come together. An AWD Camry would still have little clearance. Some compact SUVs have higher ground clearance than others. This 6x4 has over 12" ground clearance https://www.globalsources.com/si/AS/Sha ... 540257.htm a Ford F150 has 9.4", an Outback has 8.7", a CRV 6.7", and a Camry 5.7"

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dm200
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Location: Washington DC area

Re: AWD Camry

Post by dm200 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:06 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:53 am
Starfish wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:19 am
Because of the tires, not only AWD. I have seen many many AWD cars stuck in the parking spot, spinning helplessly all 4 wheels digging themselves deeper in the snow.
A few years ago my brother brought his family (from California) to visit us and ski (in Utah). He figured he was OK because his E63 wagon was AWD. He got stuck 3 separate times in less than a week, twice I had to drive up in my little Hyundai accent with snow tires to help him. The next year they actually moved here and he thought an outback would be a more suitable vehicle. In his first winter he got stuck, and once again I drove up in my fwd accent to help him. A few months later he slid through a stop sign and rear-ended another vehicle. He finally bought his first set of snow tires.
Maybe the problems were the driver -- and not the car.

stoptothink
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by stoptothink » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:14 pm

dm200 wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:06 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:53 am
Starfish wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:19 am
Because of the tires, not only AWD. I have seen many many AWD cars stuck in the parking spot, spinning helplessly all 4 wheels digging themselves deeper in the snow.
A few years ago my brother brought his family (from California) to visit us and ski (in Utah). He figured he was OK because his E63 wagon was AWD. He got stuck 3 separate times in less than a week, twice I had to drive up in my little Hyundai accent with snow tires to help him. The next year they actually moved here and he thought an outback would be a more suitable vehicle. In his first winter he got stuck, and once again I drove up in my fwd accent to help him. A few months later he slid through a stop sign and rear-ended another vehicle. He finally bought his first set of snow tires.
Maybe the problems were the driver -- and not the car.
Of course, but that same driver has gotten stuck 0 times in the past 3yrs after putting snow tires on the same cars he got stuck in multiple times in a matter of weeks. I drove in the exact same area for a decade in a RWD pickup truck and got stuck or even slid 0 times, that doesn't change the fact that putting snow tires on it made it feel like a completely different vehicle.

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sport
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Re: AWD Camry

Post by sport » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:18 pm

dm200 wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:06 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:53 am
Starfish wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:19 am
Because of the tires, not only AWD. I have seen many many AWD cars stuck in the parking spot, spinning helplessly all 4 wheels digging themselves deeper in the snow.
A few years ago my brother brought his family (from California) to visit us and ski (in Utah). He figured he was OK because his E63 wagon was AWD. He got stuck 3 separate times in less than a week, twice I had to drive up in my little Hyundai accent with snow tires to help him. The next year they actually moved here and he thought an outback would be a more suitable vehicle. In his first winter he got stuck, and once again I drove up in my fwd accent to help him. A few months later he slid through a stop sign and rear-ended another vehicle. He finally bought his first set of snow tires.
Maybe the problems were the driver -- and not the car.
One time I had a business guest from California come to Cleveland for a meeting in the winter. He had difficulty walking when he encountered a small patch of ice. I hate to think how he would drive on snow/ice covered roads. Driving in bad conditions is second nature if you are used to it. If you have never lived with it, it takes some getting used to. The first time I ever drove a car, the street was snow covered.

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