New Computer with or without SSD?

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Topic Author
sport
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New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by sport » Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:58 pm

With the end of support for Windows 7 coming in January, I have decide to replace my desktop unit instead of upgrading it. It is 10 years old, so I don't want to push my luck with it. I have been looking at desktop models and note that some have an SSD in addition to the magnetic disk. Since I do not need any high-powered capability, the SSD, while nice, would not be essential. My question is whether the SSD would have a shorter life expectancy than the rest of the computer. I would hope to be able to get 10 years out of this computer as well, and I do not want to get a feature that would result in an earlier replacement. Is there any concern about the life expectancy of the SSD?

SimonJester
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by SimonJester » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:02 pm

I dont believe the SSD has a shorter life then a traditional magnetic disk. In fact the SSD having no moving parts will outlast many traditional magnetic disks. I've seen some estimates that put a SSD lifespan into the hundreds of years (based on the write limitation).

The biggest advantage of SSD is speed. OS boot times and application load times are a magatitute faster. Ive replaced all the magnetic disks in my house with SSDs. I would never go back to traditional disks...
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

froman118
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by froman118 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:15 pm

Get the SSD. If you need more than 1 TB of storage then just add on a spinning drive for that bulk data.

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sunny_socal
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by sunny_socal » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:17 pm

SSD all the way! It's 100x faster, cannot live without it. HD for a second drive is fine (eg for pics and docs), having the SSD as the boot drive is key.

Turkishcoffee
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by Turkishcoffee » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:17 pm

Don’t even think about a new computer without SSD. You will regret it. Sooooo much better, booting speed is night and day.

mattshwink
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by mattshwink » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:20 pm

I completely agree with Jester. I have a laptop that is about five years old with a SSD, no issues. I bought my wife a laptop a year ago and would only consider models with a SSD. I also don't have a need for a mechanical drive as SSDs have gotten larger (though not as large as mechanical drives). I use SSD and cloud storage (Google Drive and Microsoft OneDrive).

atikovi
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by atikovi » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:22 pm

sport wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:58 pm
With the end of support for Windows 7 coming in January
What support do you need? I've had my Windows 7 computer for 3 years and have never contacted Windows support. On the contrary, I get calls from Microsoft support all the time.

02nz
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by 02nz » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:25 pm

There’s a lot of misinformation out there about SSD longevity. It is true that the amount of data that can be written is limited - but we’re talking about terabytes here, and in daily use not that much is written to the disk (as opposed to reads). Even heavy users are unlikely to bump up against the write limits of most SSDs. SSDs can of course fail, but in my experience they’re far more reliable than HDDs.

The user experience is so dramatically better (a 10-year-old PC with SSD will likely feel more responsive than a brand-new one with HDD) that you really shouldn’t even consider an HDD, except maybe for storage of media files. The operating system should always be on the SSD.

Topic Author
sport
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by sport » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:29 pm

atikovi wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:22 pm
sport wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:58 pm
With the end of support for Windows 7 coming in January
What support do you need? I've had my Windows 7 computer for 3 years and have never contacted Windows support. On the contrary, I get calls from Microsoft support all the time.
The support needed are security update patches. I would not want to use a system that was not secure. The calls you get from "Microsoft Support" are not from Microsoft. They are frauds. They either want to sell you something, cheat you, or compromise your computer.

alfaspider
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by alfaspider » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:30 pm

There is no reason why an ordinary consumer should buy an old-school HDD in 2019. SSDs are better in every way unless you need to archive enormous amounts of data, and prices have come down enough that even price is not a reason to avoid the SSD. I expect that magnetic hard drives will be limited to server farms within the next few years- kind of like magnetic tape backups.

In fact switching from magnetic hard drives to SSDs is the #1 thing you can do to make your computer feel faster. Most consumers who use their computer for internet/office and light multi media will scarcely notice the difference between a 10 year old CPU and a current one. But they will notice how quickly all of their programs load and how quickly the computer boots with an SSD.
Last edited by alfaspider on Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bryanm
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by bryanm » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:30 pm

As noted above, the benefits of SSDs should not be understated.

While early SSDs had lifespan concerns, those concerns have largely been addressed. Many drives specify a "terabytes written" endurance, which you can use to calculate expected lifespan. For example, this Samsung SSD (first I pulled up) has a 1440 TBW endurance, meaning that it is expected that the drive will withdrawn up to 1440 terabytes written to disk. Ten years is 3650 days, meaning that this drive could withstand (1440 * 1000) / 3650 = ~394.5 gigabytes per day of data written over a 10 year period. That is far far higher than I would ever expect on a consumer device.

Buy the SSD.

atikovi
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by atikovi » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:37 pm

sport wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:29 pm
atikovi wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:22 pm
sport wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:58 pm
With the end of support for Windows 7 coming in January
What support do you need? I've had my Windows 7 computer for 3 years and have never contacted Windows support. On the contrary, I get calls from Microsoft support all the time.
The support needed are security update patches. I would not want to use a system that was not secure. The calls you get from "Microsoft Support" are not from Microsoft. They are frauds. They either want to sell you something, cheat you, or compromise your computer.
Won't security software take care of that? And what security is compromised if you don't do updates?

iamlucky13
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by iamlucky13 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:51 pm

The best 1:1 comparison I had was a laptop that I upgraded a few years back from a 256 HDD to the cheapest 128 GB SSD from a reasonable reputable brand. If I remember right, the boot time decreased by about 2/3, and the overall responsiveness in general use improved significantly. Part of that was due to the OS reinstall I did at the same time, but the overall improvement was far larger than a clean operating system would have explained.

Regarding longevity - there was concern early on because SSD's have a limited number of read and write cycles for each bit. However, these limits are fairly high in practical terms, generally only relevant to data servers where the drives are actively accessing the same clusters over and over again all day long. Also, the drive controllers now have features to reduce problems from clusters wearing out when it does occur.

SSD's are physically more robust and do not have moving parts, which is a significant expected benefit for reliability.

In my opinion, unless you are on a very tight budget, the question is not whether or not to get an SSD when buying a new computer. It's whether or not to get an HDD in addition to the SSD. Spinning disks do still have a big price advantage if you need more than about 1 TB.

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HueyLD
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by HueyLD » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:00 pm

Yes, get SSD unless you can't afford it.

Windows 10 updates can be a real drag if you have a large capacity HDD. For example, a semiannual Windows 10 update can take six hours on a HDD and only 1 1/2 hours on a SSD.

Smoke
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by Smoke » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:21 pm

froman118 wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:15 pm
Get the SSD. If you need more than 1 TB of storage then just add on a spinning drive for that bulk data.
+1
Arguing for the sake of arguing is something I am not going to engage in.

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nisiprius
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by nisiprius » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:24 pm

My (expensive) Mac Mini which I bought in late 2017 has 1 TB SSD drive and 16 GB of RAM, and I love it. I have bigger external drives connected. The best way I can describe it is to say that it just works smoothly all the time. No indications of any slowdown with many applications open, no issues of resource starvation with two OS updates (Sierra to High Sierra to Catalina, including the file system change with High Sierra).

I'm sold on SSD. I'm quite prepared to believe this is a case where good hardware can paper over bad software, but in any case, I'm a believer.

The consensus seemed to be that the limited life of SSDs wasn't likely to be a problem for home users. So I'm just going to shrug. It's not as if rotating drives lasted forever. I'm not too clear on what approaching end-of-life looks like to the user, but rotating drives have a fairly unfriendly way of failing.
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CurledMoss
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by CurledMoss » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:33 pm

My first SSD was many moons ago. It cost like $300 for an 80gb and outlasted the computer. If it don't have an ssd not worth my time to use it.

CurledMoss
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by CurledMoss » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:35 pm

CurledMoss wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:33 pm
My first SSD was many moons ago. It cost like $300 for an 80gb and outlasted the computer. If it don't have an ssd not worth my time to use it.
I may have even used the ssd in the second computer for awhile. That was like a gen 2 intel ssd. They've come a long ways.
Last edited by CurledMoss on Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

02nz
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by 02nz » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:36 pm

atikovi wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:37 pm
sport wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:29 pm
atikovi wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:22 pm
sport wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:58 pm
With the end of support for Windows 7 coming in January
What support do you need? I've had my Windows 7 computer for 3 years and have never contacted Windows support. On the contrary, I get calls from Microsoft support all the time.
The support needed are security update patches. I would not want to use a system that was not secure. The calls you get from "Microsoft Support" are not from Microsoft. They are frauds. They either want to sell you something, cheat you, or compromise your computer.
Won't security software take care of that? And what security is compromised if you don't do updates?
Security software cannot patch security vulnerabilities in Windows that remain unaddressed because security updates have ended for that version of Windows.

CurledMoss
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by CurledMoss » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:39 pm

02nz wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:36 pm
atikovi wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:37 pm
sport wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:29 pm
atikovi wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:22 pm
sport wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:58 pm
With the end of support for Windows 7 coming in January
What support do you need? I've had my Windows 7 computer for 3 years and have never contacted Windows support. On the contrary, I get calls from Microsoft support all the time.
The support needed are security update patches. I would not want to use a system that was not secure. The calls you get from "Microsoft Support" are not from Microsoft. They are frauds. They either want to sell you something, cheat you, or compromise your computer.
Won't security software take care of that? And what security is compromised if you don't do updates?
Security software cannot patch security vulnerabilities in Windows that remain unaddressed because security updates have ended for that version of Windows.
It's just a matter of time before windows 7 is compromised without the constant security updates.

atikovi
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by atikovi » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:42 pm

02nz wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:36 pm
atikovi wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:37 pm
sport wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:29 pm
atikovi wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:22 pm
sport wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:58 pm
With the end of support for Windows 7 coming in January
What support do you need? I've had my Windows 7 computer for 3 years and have never contacted Windows support. On the contrary, I get calls from Microsoft support all the time.
The support needed are security update patches. I would not want to use a system that was not secure. The calls you get from "Microsoft Support" are not from Microsoft. They are frauds. They either want to sell you something, cheat you, or compromise your computer.
Won't security software take care of that? And what security is compromised if you don't do updates?
Security software cannot patch security vulnerabilities in Windows that remain unaddressed because security updates have ended for that version of Windows.
What are these security vulnerabilities? Someone can steal your credit card number when you enter it online? They can find your passwords? Windows 7 has been out a long long time. What possible new vulnerabilities could there be that hasn't been discovered by now?

bryanm
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by bryanm » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:02 pm

atikovi wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:42 pm
What are these security vulnerabilities? Someone can steal your credit card number when you enter it online? They can find your passwords? Windows 7 has been out a long long time. What possible new vulnerabilities could there be that hasn't been discovered by now?
If we knew the vulnerabilities, they probably wouldn't exist. (Or at least I wouldn't have problems filling up my tax-deferred space!) For the purposes of this thread, suffice it to say that the consensus view of security experts is that you should transition your software when it reaches end of life for security purposes. If you disagree, that's fine, continue on with your software.

02nz
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by 02nz » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:06 pm

Windows 10 works well and the upgrade from Windows 7 remains free. Why anyone thinks it’s a good idea to keep running decade-old software that no longer receives updates is beyond me.

Momus
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by Momus » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:15 pm

If you don't have SSD, you are using a computer that's AT LEAST 1/4 of its true speed. If you want only 1/4 speed of your processor is capable of, then don't buy SSD.

256GB SSD upgrade is like $50 there is absolutely no reason not to use one.
Last edited by Momus on Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

atikovi
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by atikovi » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:16 pm

02nz wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:06 pm
Windows 10 works well and the upgrade from Windows 7 remains free. Why anyone thinks it’s a good idea to keep running decade-old software that no longer receives updates is beyond me.
Because I have programs that won't work on anything newer than W7.

MathWizard
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by MathWizard » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:23 pm

SSD. For a laptop especially, you will lower weight and longer battery life plus
much faster performance.

I'm putting high end consumer class drives for temp space in production machines.
For $150/TB you can get drives which are rated for 300GB written every day for 5 years.

SimonJester
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by SimonJester » Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:25 pm

atikovi wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:42 pm
What are these security vulnerabilities? Someone can steal your credit card number when you enter it online? They can find your passwords? Windows 7 has been out a long long time. What possible new vulnerabilities could there be that hasn't been discovered by now?
The possibilities are limitless, perhaps a new vulnerability just turns your Windows 7 PC into a spam bot sending hundreds of thousands of spam messages per second, Your ISP will Love that. Perhaps they just encrypt your entire hard drive and ransom you to unlock it.

But the BIGGEST reason not to run an outdated un-patched OS , if you will not be in compliance with your Bank's online access agreement to include Vanguard. Any fraud against your accounts that could be traced back to your unpatched computer and your could be on the hook.

Per CVE Windows 7 currently has 1,283 known vulnerabilities, 250 of those being discovered this year.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

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RickBoglehead
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by RickBoglehead » Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:33 pm

atikovi wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:37 pm
sport wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:29 pm
atikovi wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:22 pm
sport wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:58 pm
With the end of support for Windows 7 coming in January
What support do you need? I've had my Windows 7 computer for 3 years and have never contacted Windows support. On the contrary, I get calls from Microsoft support all the time.
The support needed are security update patches. I would not want to use a system that was not secure. The calls you get from "Microsoft Support" are not from Microsoft. They are frauds. They either want to sell you something, cheat you, or compromise your computer.
Won't security software take care of that? And what security is compromised if you don't do updates?
Very naive perspective.
Avid user of forums on variety of interests-financial, home brewing, F-150, PHEV, home repair, etc. Enjoy learning & passing on knowledge. It's PRINCIPAL, not PRINCIPLE. I ADVISE you to seek ADVICE.

stimulacra
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by stimulacra » Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:40 pm

SSD. There are no moving parts, no spinning platters rotating at 7200 or 9600 RPMs.

Also, you should never keep a single critical copy of data on your primary volume. For less than $100 you can create a very reliable and redundant backup and archiving system.

For financial files get two USB-3 or USB-C thumb drives that mirror each other. For photos or media files, get a matching pair of 2 TB or 4 TB externals with an incremental backup software installed.

Happy hunting.

fwellimort
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by fwellimort » Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:52 pm

Get the SSD.

There is a noticeable time difference especially with the average SSDs over the average HDD.
And the pricing of SSD (if bought separately) isn't even that expensive anymore.
You can get high quality 500 GB SSDs for $75 off Amazon. And $110 for 1 TB SSds off Amazon.
(if you plan on upgrading on your own which is quite easy depending on the model of your desktop -if Apple, give up-)

And as of life expectancy, none of my desktops/laptops I ever touched failed me in the hard drive aspect.
For SSD, unless you are filling it up to 98+% and overwriting hundreds of GB everyday, the lifespan of the drive will last longer than your computer.
In fact, for the average client, SSDs might last longer than HDD.

The biggest difference you will see with SSD as stated by others is boot times and application load times.
My booting for my laptop takes 1.5~2 seconds to go to the Windows Login screen. Far better than the old boot times which sometimes felt like it took forever.
Imagine the extra looooooooooong wait time you have to endure everyday for years. The amount of time lost would vastly outweigh the cost in the long run.

If you will use much space, it is better to get an external hard drive for music/video on top of the SSD. Let your SSD be the main drive with all your "others" from your HDD. Then you won't need as much SSD space while getting all the SSD benefits.
External portable regular hard drives are cheap. Just think of it is as your standard USB with near unlimited memory.

It really depends on your budget. At the end of day, with the way technology has been increasing, it is highly unlikely you will keep your desktop for the next 10 years. Applications including your browser everyday are hogging more and more memory to load faster than ever.
Just a few years ago, 6gb ram seemed enough, now that number I feel is 12gb ram. In just a few years, it might be the case that the average person would need 16gb ram and so on.

RetiredInTheWest
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by RetiredInTheWest » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:36 pm

The rule in our house is "only SSD" for ALL computer purchases. Once you have it, you'll never go back!

ThisTimeItsDifferent
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by ThisTimeItsDifferent » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:42 pm

Definitely only SSD, 100x the speed of hard drives. Don't get the cheapest off brand SSD though. The DRAM-less and/or QLC ones are slower and do have a very limited lifespan because all the file meta-data is stored and re-written direct to SSD rather than to DRAM. Even some major brands have budget lines that are DRAM-less and/or QLC.

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telemark
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by telemark » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:52 pm

When my computer at work was upgraded to an SSD drive I noticed the difference immediately. I was doing software development, so there was always lots of disk activity from running builds and pulling in other peoples' updates from repositories. On the other hand, I replaced the old slow 5400 RPM disk drive in my home PC with an SSD about a year ago and noticed absolutely no improvement. Maybe if I had been timing things with a stop watch I could have measured a change, but subjectively it runs just the same as before. It does feel a little cooler to the touch, so there is probably a power saving, always nice to have. I think how much improvement you will see depends on what you are doing with your computer.

Still, outside of special cases I see no reason at this point not to go with SSD.

politely
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by politely » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:25 am

I've had dozens of HDDs and SSDs, and a couple of failures of both. The vast majority of my drives have generally outlived their usefulness before failure. You can know the mean time before failure or annual failure rate of a particular model, but not when your particular drive will actually die. I found those statistics not particularly helpful - and in my mind, given my experience, I treat HDDs and SSDs as roughly equivalent - ie, I don't really expect them to die until they do. The big difference, in my experience, is that SSD failure tends to be more sudden and catastrophic than mechanical drives, but whether you use solid state or mechanical drives, you should backup your important data. In my opinion, the SSD speed difference more than makes up for that risk.

My suggestion is to get a 256G SSD (minimum) as a boot drive and a HDD for data storage, and of course, some form of backup. The SSD speed advantage is significant and immediately noticeable. My family uses about 7-8 computers (mix of desktops and laptops) and I've put SSDs into each one as a bootdrive.

iamlucky13
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by iamlucky13 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:09 am

RickBoglehead wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:33 pm
atikovi wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:37 pm
sport wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:29 pm
atikovi wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:22 pm
sport wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:58 pm
With the end of support for Windows 7 coming in January
What support do you need? I've had my Windows 7 computer for 3 years and have never contacted Windows support. On the contrary, I get calls from Microsoft support all the time.
The support needed are security update patches. I would not want to use a system that was not secure. The calls you get from "Microsoft Support" are not from Microsoft. They are frauds. They either want to sell you something, cheat you, or compromise your computer.
Won't security software take care of that? And what security is compromised if you don't do updates?
Very naive perspective.
Well, the reasoning may be naive, but the precedence with XP's end of life was pretty unremarkable, despite the fact that XP started life with severe security holes, and as I understand it, some fundamental weaknesses that could never be entirely resolved.

The really popular OS's like XP and 7 tend to get really thoroughly "tested" by exploiters both because they become the high profile targets and because they remain in use and support for a long time. By the time support finally ends, even assuming there are holes left to exploit, not much effort gets spent on the severely diminished and declining number of users.

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DrippingSprings
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by DrippingSprings » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:46 am

Will you get more life out of an SSD if you leave the computer on day and night, or if you turn it off and on?

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RickBoglehead
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by RickBoglehead » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:53 am

DrippingSprings wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:46 am
Will you get more life out of an SSD if you leave the computer on day and night, or if you turn it off and on?
Their is no justification for leaving a computer on 24/7 as far as wear and tear vs energy costs. Setting a computer to turn off the display at 15 minutes of inactivity, sleep at 30, and hibernate at 2 hours are my settings.

Worrying about a less than $100 SSD wearing out vs wasting electricity or wearing out a screen isn't even worth considering.

MTBF for an SSD is in the 1.2 to 1.5 million hour range.
Last edited by RickBoglehead on Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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nisiprius
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by nisiprius » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:00 am

To put it in a negative way, get with the program and buy an SSD. There are things in life of which you say "it shouldn't be that way, but it is, and my personal life will be happier if I don't try to fight it." It is now about eight years since SSDs began to be available as standard equipment in Macs and PCs. I have a strong suspicion that a) SSDs can cover a multitude of software design sins, and b) designers now expect "normal" computers to have SSDs, and therefore sin.

That is, when a company decides whether an OS is ready for release, unnecessary sluggishness on older system is not considered a showstopper and may never be fixed.

During the lifespan of my previous computer, Apple introduced the feature of "reopen windows" on the next boot; that is, it would save a record of which applications were open, and reopen them on the next startup. I found that I just couldn't use that feature because it extended boot times inordinately--by many minutes.

Another sins that an SSD can probably cover is marginal RAM allowance, since swap times are so much faster.
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by keith6014 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:19 am

Turkishcoffee wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:17 pm
Don’t even think about a new computer without SSD. You will regret it. Sooooo much better, booting speed is night and day.
+1
Big difference. Most bang for buck

Nekrotok
Posts: 121
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by Nekrotok » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:30 am

For general usage, I'd rather use a 10 year old desktop with a $30 ssd than a new desktop without ssd.

gips
Posts: 586
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by gips » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:38 am

Are you sure you need a desktop? My whole family uses laptops, we haven’t needed a desktop in 10 years.

I know the answer has overwhelmingly been to use an ssd, I made the conscious choice not to spend the extra money. My usage pattern is 99% web browser based and I keep all my personal files in the cloud. I rarely reboot the computer. Since most of my performance lag is network latency, I don’t think an ssd is of much value for my usage pattern. I confirmed this by using the web browser on my daughter’s ssd-based computer.

Ymmv based on your usage pattern.
Last edited by gips on Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

gips
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by gips » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:41 am

atikovi wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:16 pm
02nz wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:06 pm
Windows 10 works well and the upgrade from Windows 7 remains free. Why anyone thinks it’s a good idea to keep running decade-old software that no longer receives updates is beyond me.
Because I have programs that won't work on anything newer than W7.
set the comparability mode of the program to win 7. If that doesn’t work, you can emulate win 7 on win 10.

jebmke
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by jebmke » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:28 am

If I were to get one today, I'd probably go with SSD and regular disk. I have a newish desktop with only a traditional disk. The traditional disk probably boots more slowly but this is only once a month when I apply MS updates. If I had to choose between an SSD and larger main memory, I'd go for the latter every time. I would not get less than 16gb of main memory if I were you. 32 if you can afford it.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

jebmke
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by jebmke » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:30 am

gips wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:41 am
set the comparability mode of the program to win 7. If that doesn’t work, you can emulate win 7 on win 10.
or run W7 in a virtual machine.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

lazydavid
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by lazydavid » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:16 am

atikovi wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:42 pm
What are these security vulnerabilities? Someone can steal your credit card number when you enter it online? They can find your passwords? Windows 7 has been out a long long time. What possible new vulnerabilities could there be that hasn't been discovered by now?
There are more discovered pretty much every single day. In the monthly patch cycle for October 2019, Microsoft patched twenty-six security vulnerabilities in Windows 7. These vary from memory corruption attacks, information disclosure, denial of service, privilege escalation, and even remote code execution. Like say, this one in VBScript:
A remote code execution vulnerability exists in the way that the VBScript engine handles objects in memory. The vulnerability could corrupt memory in such a way that an attacker could execute arbitrary code in the context of the current user. An attacker who successfully exploited the vulnerability could gain the same user rights as the current user. If the current user is logged on with administrative user rights, an attacker who successfully exploited the vulnerability could take control of an affected system. An attacker could then install programs; view, change, or delete data; or create new accounts with full user rights.

In a web-based attack scenario, an attacker could host a specially crafted website that is designed to exploit the vulnerability through Internet Explorer and then convince a user to view the website. An attacker could also embed an ActiveX control marked "safe for initialization" in an application or Microsoft Office document that hosts the IE rendering engine. The attacker could also take advantage of compromised websites and websites that accept or host user-provided content or advertisements. These websites could contain specially crafted content that could exploit the vulnerability.

The security update addresses the vulnerability by modifying how the scripting engine handles objects in memory.
https://portal.msrc.microsoft.com/en-US ... -2019-1238

There will be many, many more vulnerabilities discovered long after Microsoft stops providing patches for Windows 7 this coming January. Some of them will be minor and/or difficult to exploit. But a handful will be catastrophic. And every patch Microsoft issues for newer versions of Windows from now into eternity will inform the bad guys about vulnerabilities that, 99% of the time, will also exist in Windows 7. Only they'll never be patched.

In fact, with support ending in January, I guarantee that there are a bunch of really juicy exploits out there that bad guys have discovered but not used or sold yet. Just like they did with XP, they will wait patiently until after Windows 7 goes end of life, so that they can use these exploits forever.
Last edited by lazydavid on Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

MichCPA
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by MichCPA » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:23 am

atikovi wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:16 pm
02nz wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:06 pm
Windows 10 works well and the upgrade from Windows 7 remains free. Why anyone thinks it’s a good idea to keep running decade-old software that no longer receives updates is beyond me.
Because I have programs that won't work on anything newer than W7.
Um, in that case I think the posters comment about 10 year old software still applies. Maybe just in a different way than was intended.

lazydavid
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Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by lazydavid » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:28 am

iamlucky13 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:09 am
The really popular OS's like XP and 7 tend to get really thoroughly "tested" by exploiters both because they become the high profile targets and because they remain in use and support for a long time. By the time support finally ends, even assuming there are holes left to exploit, not much effort gets spent on the severely diminished and declining number of users.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Since XP support ended, over 1,000 new vulnerabilities have been found. A small handful have been so devastating that Microsoft went back on their plans and released XP-specific patches for those vulnerabilities. Such as this one:

https://portal.msrc.microsoft.com/en-US ... -2019-0708

Which requires no user interaction or authentication whatsoever in order to completely compromise a machine remotely. This bug existed for 20 years, and it was discovered in 2019.

MichCPA
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by MichCPA » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:34 am

RickBoglehead wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:53 am
DrippingSprings wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:46 am
Will you get more life out of an SSD if you leave the computer on day and night, or if you turn it off and on?
Their is no justification for leaving a computer on 24/7 as far as wear and tear vs energy costs. Setting a computer to turn off the display at 15 minutes of inactivity, sleep at 30, and hibernate at 2 hours are my settings.

Worrying about a less than $100 SSD wearing out vs wasting electricity or wearing out a screen isn't even worth considering.

MTBF for an SSD is in the 1.2 to 1.5 million hour range.
It is amazing how many practices from the 1990s have survived to this day despite the massive differences in computing that have happened in the past 20-30 years.

You are likely to replace other computer components long before the SSD and you lose most of the risk of catastrophic data loss. MoBo, power supply, battery (if laptop), possibly even LCD monitors will all likely fail before an SSD.

MichCPA
Posts: 831
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by MichCPA » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:39 am

lazydavid wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:28 am
iamlucky13 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:09 am
The really popular OS's like XP and 7 tend to get really thoroughly "tested" by exploiters both because they become the high profile targets and because they remain in use and support for a long time. By the time support finally ends, even assuming there are holes left to exploit, not much effort gets spent on the severely diminished and declining number of users.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Since XP support ended, over 1,000 new vulnerabilities have been found. A small handful have been so devastating that Microsoft went back on their plans and released XP-specific patches for those vulnerabilities. Such as this one:

https://portal.msrc.microsoft.com/en-US ... -2019-0708

Which requires no user interaction or authentication whatsoever in order to completely compromise a machine remotely. This bug existed for 20 years, and it was discovered in 2019.
I don't think the average person appreciates the amount of code that goes into an Operating System, and that it would be impossible to build a totally new Windows OS without breaking compatibility. At a basic level, nobody wants a completely brand new OS without any shared code. What would happen if a new vulnerability was found in Win 10 and it stretched back to Win 7? It would be patched for 10 and not 7. This is not a hypothetical as you rightly pointed out.

ETA: There are literally hacker conferences designed to uncover vulnerabilities and collect incentive payments from Microsoft, Google, et al. So the idea nobody is trying to break old Windows versions is patently false. All of that work would help a would be hacker hit old systems.

mpnret
Posts: 250
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Re: New Computer with or without SSD?

Post by mpnret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:19 am

I will never get another PC without SSD. My Sony VAIO all in one was quite the machine back in 2010 with it's 24" monitor 1 TB HDD and all the bells and whistles. Times have changed but I am still liking this PC. About 3 years ago it seemed to really slow down and nothing I tried would speed it up (max memory, reload from scratch, etc). I installed A Samsung 1TB SSD and wow, better than new. A year later I installed another of the same and regularly clone the main SSD with the second SSD. The 1 TB HDD that was originally in the machine sits in an enclosure on the desk and runs incremental backups. Only problem is I am still on win 7 for many reasons but a I guess a win 10 upgrade is in my future. Until then I'm hoping my Norton Security Suite including firewall will provide protection. Any comments?

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