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On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:15 pm
by SVariance1
This a follow up to a previous thread about a broken dishwasher. I had someone remove the old dishwasher, then had an electrician put a GFI outlet underneath the sink ( My old set up was hard wired). He could not remove the old outlet completely and left it as a junction box with a cover. There was no access in my basement to move it to the basement. As it turned out, the new dishwasher has a required cut out depth of 24 inches. I have 24 inches from wall to cabinets, perhaps 24.5 but the junction box takes up about 1 inch in depth. The junction box is at the bottom of the wall. It looks like the Bosch 300 series dishwasher as well a the older ones have a opening at the bottom of the dishwasher in the back. I am hoping that this opening is there to accommodate junction boxes, outlets, etc. At this point, I do not even care if the dishwasher stick out a little bit.



Any thoughts?.....I have determined with some help here and some help from the manufacturer that the unit should fit.

Anyone have any any thoughts on front control versus top control.

Also, has anyone here ever bought a dishwasher from Best Buy. They apparently deliver and install it for free.

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:35 pm
by RickBoglehead
It will either fit in the space, or the dishwasher will stick out. What other outcome could there possibly be?

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:38 pm
by CurlyDave
Most of the time, dishwasher cut out depth requirements are only real numbers where the dishwasher tub is. There should be room below that for your junction box.

Before you buy, take a picture of the inside of the cut out with your phone and take it into the store. If the box is low close to the floor, and near the middle you should be OK. Measure the critical dimensions before you go in to the store, or let their guy tell you what is critical.

I have installed dozens of dishwashers and I don't think this is an issue.

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:48 pm
by SVariance1
CurlyDave wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:38 pm
If the box is low close to the floor, and near the middle you should be OK. Measure the critical dimensions before you go in to the store, or let their guy tell you what is critical.

I have installed dozens of dishwashers and I don't think this is an issue.
The junction box is right by the floor on the left side of the cut out

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:52 pm
by CurlyDave
SVariance1 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:48 pm
CurlyDave wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:38 pm
If the box is low close to the floor, and near the middle you should be OK. Measure the critical dimensions before you go in to the store, or let their guy tell you what is critical.

I have installed dozens of dishwashers and I don't think this is an issue.
The junction box is right by the floor on the left side of the cut out
Do you mean all the way against the side of the cabinet on the left, or do you mean on the left part of the cut-out but a few inches from the side?

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:55 pm
by SVariance1
CurlyDave wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:52 pm

The junction box is right by the floor on the left side of the cut out
Do you mean all the way against the side of the cabinet on the left, or do you mean on the left part of the cut-out but a few inches from the side?
[/quote]

It is on the back wall almost on the floor and about 1.5 inches from the side of the sink cabinet

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:02 pm
by CurlyDave
Probably OK, but take the picture and the measurements to wherever you are getting the new one. Some brands may not fit, but there should be several that are OK.

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:38 pm
by SVariance1
CurlyDave wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:02 pm
Probably OK, but take the picture and the measurements to wherever you are getting the new one. Some brands may not fit, but there should be several that are OK.
I was going to get it at Home Depot. I doubt the people in the appliance area will have an answer to the question.

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:48 pm
by anoop
You could try contacting Bosch directly (assuming that is the one you're looking at). I got a lot of help/guidance from Liebherr when I was buying my fridge to make sure it would have enough space for ventilation. You could also try posting to appliance forum on houzz.
https://www.houzz.com/discussions/appliances

You could also google for the installation instructions of the model you are interested in and that should have detailed measurements.

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:28 pm
by HomeStretch
Is the junction box on top of the sheetrock? If so, can you cut the sheetrock to create an open recess where the junction box can sit further back between the studs?

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:43 pm
by SVariance1
Apparently the cut out depth is 24 for the new and old one. I think it should be okay.

Anyone have a preference for front control versus top control?

Has anyone bought a dishwasher and had it installed by Best Buy? They apparently have free delivery and installation.

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:58 pm
by HomeStretch
I like the top controls on my Asko dishwasher as the wood panel covers the entire door for a clean appearance.

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:01 pm
by 123
SVariance1 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:43 pm
...Has anyone bought a dishwasher and had it installed by Best Buy? They apparently have free delivery and installation.
Two years ago we got one from Best Buy and they did the installation. We purchased from them because overall price was best with them since delivery and installation were included. We did everything online. We ordered the specific model we wanted online and when they had an date it would reach the local area we went ahead and scheduled the installation online. Best Buy sent two guys. They removed and hauled away old dishwasher and installed new one and ran it through a test cycle. We would buy from them again.

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:14 pm
by batpot
Worse that happens is it sticks out.

I had a similar issue a number of years ago where I was restricted to a certain depth from a drop-in oven.
I carefully went to the manufacturer's website for a particular Frigidaire, and made sure it was less than the depth I had available.
It showed up, and was 1" deeper than their spec sheet said, and sure enough stuck out.
It sat in my living room for about a week before I came up with a solution: I filled the gap in the countertop with a piece of scrap wood, and got some black tile to make a border around the surface of the oven.

Ended up looking really nice, but did stick out an inch from the rest of the cabinets.

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:28 pm
by Housedoc
Can you free the junction box to just loosely lay on the floor? You could move it away from the frame of dw. If you decide to let it stick out, make sure holes in side of door opening will still allow unit to be secured to side cabinets.

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:02 pm
by Broken Man 1999
HomeStretch wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:58 pm
I like the top controls on my Asko dishwasher as the wood panel covers the entire door for a clean appearance.
I like that style, also.

Our Samsung DW has the controls at the top edge of the door, which prevents the controls to be brushed against and inadvertently starting/stopping a cycle.

Broken Man 1999

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:35 pm
by donall
Find model number of dishwasher you plan to buy. Search for Bosch model number and installation instructions. Check out electrical requirements such as on page 7 of this pdf.
https://media3.bosch-home.com/Documents ... 1191_A.pdf
I would have installers follow those directions. I would not feel comfortable with an electrical box (even GFI) under the sink.

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:25 pm
by BuddyJet
Putting a GFI outlet behind an installed dishwasher is not a good idea since it requires the dishwasher be removed to get to the outlet to reset if it trips or to test. GFI outlets are prone to tripping.

My solutions would be to move the outlet to underneath the sink and use a pigtail cord to the dishwasher or go back to the hardwire as it was and switch the panel breaker on that circuit to GFI.

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:29 pm
by forgeblast
BuddyJet wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:25 pm
Putting a GFI outlet behind an installed dishwasher is not a good idea since it requires the dishwasher be removed to get to the outlet to reset if it trips or to test. GFI outlets are prone to tripping.

My solutions would be to move the outlet to underneath the sink and use a pigtail cord to the dishwasher or go back to the hardwire as it was and switch the panel breaker on that circuit to GFI.
Thats what I was thinking. If it ever gets tripped your pulling the dishwasher every time. Its not hard to pull it just a pain.

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:31 pm
by retire2022
BuddyJet wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:25 pm
Putting a GFI outlet behind an installed dishwasher is not a good idea since it requires the dishwasher be removed to get to the outlet to reset if it trips or to test. GFI outlets are prone to tripping.

My solutions would be to move the outlet to underneath the sink and use a pigtail cord to the dishwasher or go back to the hardwire as it was and switch the panel breaker on that circuit to GFI.
They have GFCI fuses i would go that route, have electrician switch out fuse for version.

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:04 am
by neilpilot
BuddyJet wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:25 pm
Putting a GFI outlet behind an installed dishwasher is not a good idea since it requires the dishwasher be removed to get to the outlet to reset if it trips or to test. GFI outlets are prone to tripping.

My solutions would be to move the outlet to underneath the sink and use a pigtail cord to the dishwasher or go back to the hardwire as it was and switch the panel breaker on that circuit to GFI.
nec 210.8 states that a GFCI is required for a receptacle within 6' of a sink, i.e. to service counter tops. There's an exception where the GFCI is not easily accessible, such as behind a dishwasher, fridg, etc., or if the device is hardwired. There may also be a local requirement not covered in the NEC, but that's doubtful.

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:50 pm
by BuddyJet
neilpilot wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:04 am
BuddyJet wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:25 pm
Putting a GFI outlet behind an installed dishwasher is not a good idea since it requires the dishwasher be removed to get to the outlet to reset if it trips or to test. GFI outlets are prone to tripping.

My solutions would be to move the outlet to underneath the sink and use a pigtail cord to the dishwasher or go back to the hardwire as it was and switch the panel breaker on that circuit to GFI.
nec 210.8 states that a GFCI is required for a receptacle within 6' of a sink, i.e. to service counter tops. There's an exception where the GFCI is not easily accessible, such as behind a dishwasher, fridg, etc., or if the device is hardwired. There may also be a local requirement not covered in the NEC, but that's doubtful.
I’d assume the OP dishwasher is grandfathered to not require GFI but the newer code may require it. I’m not an electrician so I might be wrong.

https://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-sta ... h-and-more

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:56 am
by GAAP
Remove the GFI outlet, going to back to a normal one. Replace the breaker with a GFI breaker -- assuming there's room in the panel.

Re: On-Going Dishwasher Issues

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:01 pm
by RickBoglehead
The GFCI outlet was installed under the sink.

A regular outlet was behind the dishwasher, and has now been covered by a cover plate.

The OP is simply wondering whether the dishwasher will stick out too far now. No one on this forum can answer that, but many of these posts are totally missing his question.