First car for child

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Ferdinand2014
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Re: First car for child

Post by Ferdinand2014 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:01 pm

StevieG72 wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:48 am
So the kiddo will be driving soon, curious how Bogleheads tackle the first car for their kids.

I want a safe car, and of course the newer cars are safer. I really like the 2019 Camry and feel like it could be a great first car that would last many years.

Do not want a cheap compact car as I do not feel they are safe.

I could buy a used Corolla with low miles for around $16,000 or a few thousand more a used Camry which is a much nicer car in my opinion.

So I am leaning towards a nice used Camry.

While much of the decision boils down to personal preference and budget, looking for insight from some veteran parents.
Broken down by price and safety:

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/safe-vehicles-for-teens
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Dontridetheindexdown
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Re: First car for child

Post by Dontridetheindexdown » Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:19 pm

oldfatguy wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:08 pm
aristotelian wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:26 am
Whatever beater the kid can afford to buy with their own money?
That was how it worked in my family and among our peers. Apparently things are different now, from what I'm told. :|

ETA: Just checked a CPI calculator, and my first car would cost $880 today.
Yes, that is exactly how it should work!

A licensed driver should drive exactly the car they can afford to buy, and can afford to insure against injury to others.

Anything else is setting the new driver up for failure in every way.

CMD1
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Re: First car for child

Post by CMD1 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:03 pm

We have a few years before this is even an issue but we don't spend a lot on cars anyways - our only car in the family today is a 2009 Camry and it's got a lot of life left - about to hit 100k miles. I imagine your income level and experience as a youth plays a lot into your philosophy. I was not given a car in high school and didn't have one until well into college. Any car we purchased for our kids I think would be well under $10k, but we will see when the time comes.

Spirit Rider
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Re: First car for child

Post by Spirit Rider » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:32 am

Ferdinand2014 wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:01 pm
Broken down by price and safety:

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/safe-vehicles-for-teens
That is a really useful link for parents who don't think you need to buy a brand new car with all of the new safety marketing hype.

Using this list in combination with reliability ratings and your budget would be a good plan. People seem to forget just how much safer cars over the last 5-15 years became.

Of course if unless specifically requested, you buy them as opposed to a hand-me-down a minivan, be prepared to be never forgiven.

Whakamole
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Re: First car for child

Post by Whakamole » Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:51 am

MrBobcat wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:47 am
I have never heard of a deer going through a windshield and destroying everyone in its path, not that it hasn't happened. I have known people who were seriously injured and killed swerving to avoid hitting a deer when they subsequently rolled their vehicle. I taught my kids if a deer pops out in front of you on the highway do your best to slow down, but never, never swerve to avoid it. I told them this over and over again over the years.
Do a google image search for "deer windshield." It happens more than you'd think. One of the Montana officers on Live PD talked about this recently - the deer jumps thinking it is getting out of the way of the car, but instead it goes through the windshield.

rj342
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Re: First car for child

Post by rj342 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:29 pm

Helo80 wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:58 pm
StevieG72 wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:48 am
Do not want a cheap compact car as I do not feel they are safe.

I could buy a used Corolla with low miles for around $16,000 or a few thousand more a used Camry which is a much nicer car in my opinion.

So I am leaning towards a nice used Camry.

Not sure if I have replied to this thread... but I would not recommend slightly used Corolla/Camry/Civic/Accord/F-150 and other bread and butter cars like that.

I have never seen a 2-3 year old gently used car with say under 40,000 miles that is significantly cheaper than just going the new route. You're not being a smart consumer nor more practical buyer because by in large, those vehicles hold their values very well, last a very long-time, and hence the used car price market holds its weight. You, like everybody else knows the quality of said vehicles, searches the used lots, and that artificially drives up prices. To save a few thousand dollars to pickup a vehicle that somebody else drove and may not have maintained it or driven it like you would is not worth the savings. HOWEVER... if you're looking for a BMW i3, E-class, Maseratti, or Buick... knock yourself out on the Used car lots as savings can be significant for 3 year old off lease vehicles.

Vehicles are very controversial in PF forums as you have such a wide-ranging opinion from people whom want to spend as little as possible and just need four wheels and something that reliably turns on to people that want to enjoy the vehicle they own because YOLO.

For a vehicle that your daughter could eventually be driving for 5-10 years.... might as well get off on the right foot.
In those vehicles there is nothing wrong with a good car with 80-100k+ miles on it as a first car to drive a few years.

Cosmic Pony
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Re: First car for child

Post by Cosmic Pony » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:42 pm

I think the choices you're looking at are good, but I would go a little older, lower priced with as low miles as possible. I usually search on Autotrader with a definite budget in mind. Hard to much for under $10,000 where I live. I have two sons, now 24 and 20. Agree with others that there will be accidents. I've practically had a body shop on retainer for the last eight years. LOL. Luckily none of the accidents were with other vehicles. You might want to also look into affordable body shops in your area. There is definitely a price difference between the big guys and smaller. Body repairs on modern cars are easier ... lots of plastic. If you know where to go to get the smaller things fixed, you won't stress as much about them.

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dm200
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Re: First car for child

Post by dm200 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:34 pm

Cosmic Pony wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:42 pm
I think the choices you're looking at are good, but I would go a little older, lower priced with as low miles as possible. I usually search on Autotrader with a definite budget in mind. Hard to much for under $10,000 where I live. I have two sons, now 24 and 20. Agree with others that there will be accidents. I've practically had a body shop on retainer for the last eight years. LOL. Luckily none of the accidents were with other vehicles. You might want to also look into affordable body shops in your area. There is definitely a price difference between the big guys and smaller. Body repairs on modern cars are easier ... lots of plastic. If you know where to go to get the smaller things fixed, you won't stress as much about them.
In this area, there seem to be older Camrys, like DW and I have, in the $5,000 range on Craigslist.

stoptothink
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Re: First car for child

Post by stoptothink » Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:06 pm

Cosmic Pony wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:42 pm
I think the choices you're looking at are good, but I would go a little older, lower priced with as low miles as possible. I usually search on Autotrader with a definite budget in mind. Hard to much for under $10,000 where I live. I have two sons, now 24 and 20. Agree with others that there will be accidents. I've practically had a body shop on retainer for the last eight years. LOL. Luckily none of the accidents were with other vehicles. You might want to also look into affordable body shops in your area. There is definitely a price difference between the big guys and smaller. Body repairs on modern cars are easier ... lots of plastic. If you know where to go to get the smaller things fixed, you won't stress as much about them.
My aunt backed into our (parked) car two weeks ago. We took it to the shop down the street which has fantastic online reviews and were given an estimate of $1100. We got a recommendation from wife's friend...$375. My aunt was very thankful we took it for a 2nd estimate.

Shallowpockets
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Re: First car for child

Post by Shallowpockets » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:04 pm

Better ask her what her friends will be getting. If they all have new cars, then it is up to you to buy similiar. You don't want her feeling bad about driving something less than the clique.

Spirit Rider
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Re: First car for child

Post by Spirit Rider » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:59 pm

Shallowpockets wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:04 pm
Better ask her what her friends will be getting. If they all have new cars, then it is up to you to buy similiar. You don't want her feeling bad about driving something less than the clique.
Assuming my sarcasm filter is working, you can't be be serious? Since when should a parent base their decisions on the actions of other parents?

This is not to say that parents shouldn't accept some input from the teenager on the vehicle purchase. However, the budget is not one of them.

Jack FFR1846
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Re: First car for child

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:01 pm

Shallowpockets wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:04 pm
Better ask her what her friends will be getting. If they all have new cars, then it is up to you to buy similiar. You don't want her feeling bad about driving something less than the clique.
When my older son got his license, the "in" car for teenagers in my town was a Land Rover Sport. These days, it's a Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon.

My older son got a 91 Honda CRX. Younger son is driving a hand me down 100k mile Subaru Crosstrek. I drive a Wrangler Unlimited, but not a Rubicon. Maybe if I save more money, I can drive what 16 year olds around us drive.
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Broken Man 1999
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Re: First car for child

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:54 pm

It is kinda funny, as when we had the daughters driving, we were in our "cheap, econobox" era.

But as the grandchildren approach driving ages, I am thinking heck no, I don't want to see them driving some POS lacking recent safety enhancements.

Of course now we can afford safer vehicles, so there is that. :D

So Papa might help out if needed.

Broken Man 1999

ETA corrected statement wording.
Last edited by Broken Man 1999 on Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Helo80
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Re: First car for child

Post by Helo80 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:08 pm

Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:54 pm
It is kinda funny, as when we had the daughters driving, we were in our "cheap, econobox" era.

But as the grandchildren approach driving ages, I am thinking heck no, I don't want to see them driving some POS lacking recent safety enhancements.

For course now we can afford safer vehicles, so there is that. :D

So Papa might help out if needed.
Agreed --- I'm definitely in the bottom quartile or 10% age wise of the demographics of this forum (80 has nothing to do with my birth year). My viewpoints on car ownership have changed drastically in the last 10 years... though, so has my income, nest egg and everything else.

Personally, I probably will never take a car past 100k miles, and maybe even 60k to 70k miles with the way safety, engineering, and technology have improved in vehicles. To me, I think it's a poor decision to penny pinch on car ownership, especially since I'm in a part of the country that necessitates POV as public transportation is very lacking, when technology continues to improve.

The truth is, I think too many PF type investors have completely warped/skewed viewings of car ownership that they miss that you're buying a product that could potentially save your life from everyone around you. I mean, in a perfect world, we'd be North Korea and see 5 cars on the morning commute into downtown Pyongyang and 6 cars on the way home. But.... some of y'all probably see 5 cars just leaving the neighborhood every morning....

Most of y'all would not trust your finances to the average American, and I think that the same general distrust should be extended to the drivers around you.

(odds are, LadyGeek will lock this thread soon as it has run its course --- but I think there are salient points above that will invariably irk people the wrong way... cars and PF are always hot button issues).

Spirit Rider
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Re: First car for child

Post by Spirit Rider » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:18 pm

Perspective is important in all things. All parents want to protect their children, but life does not come with a guarantee.

Most of the important safety improvements in vehicles (Anti-lock Braking Systems (ABS)
Electronic Stability Control (ESC), airbags, passenger compartment crash integrity, etc..) have long been available in most/all models.

To imply that only new vehicles with imaging, radar and AI based warnings and automatic actions are safe enough is a gross exaggeration.

Many models built in the last ten years have had 0 occupant deaths in the first four years.

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dm200
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Re: First car for child

Post by dm200 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:13 am

Spirit Rider wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:18 pm
Perspective is important in all things. All parents want to protect their children, but life does not come with a guarantee.
Most of the important safety improvements in vehicles (Anti-lock Braking Systems (ABS)
Electronic Stability Control (ESC), airbags, passenger compartment crash integrity, etc..) have long been available in most/all models.

To imply that only new vehicles with imaging, radar and AI based warnings and automatic actions are safe enough is a gross exaggeration.

Many models built in the last ten years have had 0 occupant deaths in the first four years.
I tend to agree.

My driving experience goes back to 1962 when I first got a license to drive. Cars of the 1950's and early 60's had no safety features. Our family purchased a 1963 Plymouth - and it did not have seat belts. It did have the anchors for seat belts - and (as a teenager) I was concerned about safety - and installed front seat belts on that car. While turn signals had then become mandatory - the only outside mirror was on the drivers side.

My first car was a 1967 VW Beetle - bought it new in 1967 - and it had lap belts. The only other safety related item on it were backup lights - which must have become mandatory about then.

While I cannot cite any references, I believe that safety features on cars have diminishing incremental benefits in very recent years. Seat/shoulder belts, air bags, crash worthiness, etc. safety features in cars by the mid to late 1990's (in my opinion) were a huge improvement over cars of the late 50's and early 60's. I tend to think that the incremental safety is lower over the last 10-20 years.

smitcat
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Re: First car for child

Post by smitcat » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:28 am

dm200 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:13 am
Spirit Rider wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:18 pm
Perspective is important in all things. All parents want to protect their children, but life does not come with a guarantee.
Most of the important safety improvements in vehicles (Anti-lock Braking Systems (ABS)
Electronic Stability Control (ESC), airbags, passenger compartment crash integrity, etc..) have long been available in most/all models.

To imply that only new vehicles with imaging, radar and AI based warnings and automatic actions are safe enough is a gross exaggeration.

Many models built in the last ten years have had 0 occupant deaths in the first four years.
I tend to agree.

My driving experience goes back to 1962 when I first got a license to drive. Cars of the 1950's and early 60's had no safety features. Our family purchased a 1963 Plymouth - and it did not have seat belts. It did have the anchors for seat belts - and (as a teenager) I was concerned about safety - and installed front seat belts on that car. While turn signals had then become mandatory - the only outside mirror was on the drivers side.

My first car was a 1967 VW Beetle - bought it new in 1967 - and it had lap belts. The only other safety related item on it were backup lights - which must have become mandatory about then.

While I cannot cite any references, I believe that safety features on cars have diminishing incremental benefits in very recent years. Seat/shoulder belts, air bags, crash worthiness, etc. safety features in cars by the mid to late 1990's (in my opinion) were a huge improvement over cars of the late 50's and early 60's. I tend to think that the incremental safety is lower over the last 10-20 years.
"I tend to think that the incremental safety is lower over the last 10-20 years."
Your thoughts are that these types of items have lower potential safety affects?
- front and side airbags
- designed crumple zones
- decreased braking distances
- automatic anti skid
- automatic braking
- lane departure warnings
Etc
Last edited by smitcat on Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Smoke
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Re: First car for child

Post by Smoke » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:30 am

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:57 am
A car with air bags and seat belts that when they crash it, it's no big because.....they will crash it.
Yep, keep this in mind for your plan for a first car.

My oldest son bought his own used car, never had an accident.
My youngest son got our hand me down free 2004 Saturn with 60k on it in pristine condition... lasted 3 weeks before it got totaled.
Not injured btw.

Something to be said for taking care of something you worked for and purchased with your own earned money.
Arguing for the sake of arguing is something I am not going to engage in.

GCD
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Re: First car for child

Post by GCD » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:42 am

Spirit Rider wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:18 pm
Most of the important safety improvements in vehicles (Anti-lock Braking Systems (ABS)
Electronic Stability Control (ESC), airbags, passenger compartment crash integrity, etc..) have long been available in most/all models.

To imply that only new vehicles with imaging, radar and AI based warnings and automatic actions are safe enough is a gross exaggeration.
We've recently had an interesting experience with installing aftermarket gizmos on our 2004 F150 pick-up truck. This is going to be used by the kids and we thought we would upgrade it to where our 2015 Acadia is. Obviously they had anti-lock brakes and airbags back in 2004 and the structural integrity of an F150 seems adequate. The enhancements we added were backup camera, blind spot alert and back up side alerts.

Whoooa boy has this been a mess. The blind spot alert goes off randomly, often without anything being there at all, let alone a threat. The back up side alerts are supposed to let you know if something is coming from the side if you have the truck in reverse. Nope, that's a pretty random alert too. All in all, the stuff we put in raises the danger level instead of lowering it. It's incredibly distracting and doesn't add anything. We are working with the installer to get it recalibrated, but if there's not about a 100% improvement I'm going to demand they remove the product at no labor expense and give me a full refund on the product price.

We did a good bit of research before picking the system and everything seemed good. Anyway, just thought I'd throw out that ya'll need to be prepared for aftermarket upgrades to function pretty poorly. I know a chunk of people might be considering splitting the difference by putting aftermarket upgrades in an older car, but that sure didn't work out easy for us. We are very pleased with the factory installed systems in the Acadia. But the aftermarket install on the truck has been a real PITA.

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StormShadow
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Re: First car for child

Post by StormShadow » Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:09 am

StevieG72 wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:48 am
So the kiddo will be driving soon, curious how Bogleheads tackle the first car for their kids.

I want a safe car, and of course the newer cars are safer. I really like the 2019 Camry and feel like it could be a great first car that would last many years.
A recently used Camry or Accord is a great choice. Safe, easy to drive/maneuver and quite practical. I'm not crazy about the idea of an SUV as a first car, mostly because of the higher risk of rollovers. Honestly, a recent Corolla isn't a bad choice and probably even easier to drive. My first car was an '88 Camry, which is shorter than the current generation Corolla. I drove that old Camry through high school in the early 90's. The 2 liter engine was pathetically slow, but I never got a speeding ticket. :beer

I think a defensive driving course is a good investment.

I'm not crazy about the idea of an SUV as a first car, mostly because of the higher risk of rollovers.

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dm200
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Re: First car for child

Post by dm200 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:20 am

StormShadow wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:09 am
StevieG72 wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:48 am
So the kiddo will be driving soon, curious how Bogleheads tackle the first car for their kids.
I want a safe car, and of course the newer cars are safer. I really like the 2019 Camry and feel like it could be a great first car that would last many years.
A recently used Camry or Accord is a great choice. Safe, easy to drive/maneuver and quite practical. I'm not crazy about the idea of an SUV as a first car, mostly because of the higher risk of rollovers. Honestly, a recent Corolla isn't a bad choice and probably even easier to drive. My first car was an '88 Camry, which is shorter than the current generation Corolla. I drove that old Camry through high school in the early 90's. The 2 liter engine was pathetically slow, but I never got a speeding ticket. :beer
I think a defensive driving course is a good investment.
I'm not crazy about the idea of an SUV as a first car, mostly because of the higher risk of rollovers.
Yes - at some point - I think early or mid 90's - the Camry and Corolla models both became bigger. So, the Corolla became about the same size as the previous Camrys - and the Camrys got a step bigger as well.

I owned a 1990 Corolla - before the Corolla got bigger.

I think the Honda Civics and Accords each "grew" about the same time.

rj342
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Re: First car for child

Post by rj342 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:16 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:01 pm
Shallowpockets wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:04 pm
Better ask her what her friends will be getting. If they all have new cars, then it is up to you to buy similiar. You don't want her feeling bad about driving something less than the clique.
When my older son got his license, the "in" car for teenagers in my town was a Land Rover Sport. These days, it's a Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon.

My older son got a 91 Honda CRX. Younger son is driving a hand me down 100k mile Subaru Crosstrek. I drive a Wrangler Unlimited, but not a Rubicon. Maybe if I save more money, I can drive what 16 year olds around us drive.
That post you are responding to sounds like a TERRIBLE idea. By all means avoid actively embarrassing the kid, but to have her expectations to be calibrated not just too high, but based on keeping up with the Jones?!?!?!?? It would be training her to expect a 3500 sq ft McMansion as a starter home when she gets married, an extra nice brand new car every 2-3 years, tons spent on trendy clothes she wears once or twice, etc, etc. Not exactly inculcating a BH mindset. If thart post was meant ironically, its was not completely obvious.

Spirit Rider
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Re: First car for child

Post by Spirit Rider » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:29 pm

smitcat wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:28 am
dm200 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:13 am
I tend to think that the incremental safety is lower over the last 10-20 years.
Your thoughts are that these types of items have lower potential safety affects?
- front and side airbags
- designed crumple zones
- decreased braking distances
- automatic anti skid
- automatic braking
- lane departure warnings
Etc
Not wanting to speak for @dm200, because they do quite well themselves. They are correct in regards to perspective. The safety improvements in new vehicles compared to many safe available used vehicles is not significant.

The majority of your list are irrelevant because they have been widely available or mandated over the last 10 - 20 years:
  • Driver and right front passenger front Air Bags (FABs) became widely available from 1990 with most models having them by 1995. They were mandated for all cars and light trucks manufactured after 9/1/1998
  • Side Air Bags (SABs) became widely available from 2005 with most models having them by 2009. They mandated for all cars and light trucks manufactured after 9/1/2013.
  • Designed crumple zones were first used by Mercedes 60 years ago. Significant improvements in crumple zones resulting in corresponding significant declines in the serious occupant injuries and fatalities occurred from 1980 - 2000. Front offset testing was mandated in 1995 and side impact testing in 2003. There is significant model safety variability over the last 15 years that often exceeds average vehicle safety year to year.
  • With the exception of sports cars there has been very little reduction on 60-to-0MPH braking distances in the last 10 - 20 years.
  • Anti-lock Brake Systems (ABS) were widely available in the 90s and standard on most models by 2000.
  • Electronic Stability Control (ESC), AKA anti-skid control was available in 50% of all models by 2007 and was mandated for all cars and light trucks manufactured after 9/1/2011.
Advanced warning systems for incompetent drivers have increasing been available over the last ten years. Advanced Driver Assistance and Automated Safety Features have increasing been available over the last five years.

While these latter two are are probably useful for mature drivers, especially those with inferior driving kills. They are really all compensation for driving awareness failures.I continue to believe that the last thing an inexperience driver needs is a crutch to be even more blissfully ignorant of their situational awareness. One purpose of teenage driving is for them to learn how to be good drivers and yes, even have that fender bender or two. This hopefully makes them become aware of their own mortality and the fact that they are driving a two ton missile.

psteinx
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Re: First car for child

Post by psteinx » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:49 pm

Spirit Rider wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:29 pm
Advanced warning systems for incompetent drivers have increasing been available over the last ten years. Advanced Driver Assistance and Automated Safety Features have increasing been available over the last five years.

While these latter two are are probably useful for mature drivers, especially those with inferior driving kills. They are really all compensation for driving awareness failures.I continue to believe that the last thing an inexperience driver needs is a crutch to be even more blissfully ignorant of their situational awareness. One purpose of teenage driving is for them to learn how to be good drivers and yes, even have that fender bender or two. This hopefully makes them become aware of their own mortality and the fact that they are driving a two ton missile.
"for inferior driving [skills]"

i.e., Like a 16-17 year old driver?

You'd rather your kid get in an accident (it'll teach 'em a lesson), rather than avoid said accident due to an auto-brake system? I strongly disagree with you there. Perhaps they won't learn the lesson, because they'll be dead.

FWIW, I've driven our kids' Honda that has the ABS. It doesn't go off willy-nilly. The first step is a warning beep. Yes, it generates some false positives, but getting an annoying beep is also a bit of a reminder to drive/brake a little bit more safely, not, in my opinion, to drive recklessly and be saved by the beeps. I've never actually triggered the automatic braking that I know of. I would presume that if I was to be coming at a car/obstacle hard enough to trigger it, and I wasn't pressing the brakes myself, I'd be glad the car was doing it for me.

Yes, driver skill, habits, and awareness are quite important. But these "driving aids are only for idiots" type comments, that seem to recur in threads like this, suggest that those making that position are perfect drivers, every time, all the time, and so are their 16 year old kids and everybody else who ever gets behind the wheel in their vehicle. I suspect that the reality is not so perfect.

sport
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Re: First car for child

Post by sport » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:29 pm

There are a lot of posts that say plan on having the new driver crash the car. I would suggest that it would be better for them not to have any car until they learn to drive properly and safely. I never crashed a car, and neither did either of my children. None of us had a car in high school.

smitcat
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Re: First car for child

Post by smitcat » Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:02 pm

Spirit Rider wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:29 pm
smitcat wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:28 am
dm200 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:13 am
I tend to think that the incremental safety is lower over the last 10-20 years.
Your thoughts are that these types of items have lower potential safety affects?
- front and side airbags
- designed crumple zones
- decreased braking distances
- automatic anti skid
- automatic braking
- lane departure warnings
Etc
Not wanting to speak for @dm200, because they do quite well themselves. They are correct in regards to perspective. The safety improvements in new vehicles compared to many safe available used vehicles is not significant.

The majority of your list are irrelevant because they have been widely available or mandated over the last 10 - 20 years:
  • Driver and right front passenger front Air Bags (FABs) became widely available from 1990 with most models having them by 1995. They were mandated for all cars and light trucks manufactured after 9/1/1998
  • Side Air Bags (SABs) became widely available from 2005 with most models having them by 2009. They mandated for all cars and light trucks manufactured after 9/1/2013.
  • Designed crumple zones were first used by Mercedes 60 years ago. Significant improvements in crumple zones resulting in corresponding significant declines in the serious occupant injuries and fatalities occurred from 1980 - 2000. Front offset testing was mandated in 1995 and side impact testing in 2003. There is significant model safety variability over the last 15 years that often exceeds average vehicle safety year to year.
  • With the exception of sports cars there has been very little reduction on 60-to-0MPH braking distances in the last 10 - 20 years.
  • Anti-lock Brake Systems (ABS) were widely available in the 90s and standard on most models by 2000.
  • Electronic Stability Control (ESC), AKA anti-skid control was available in 50% of all models by 2007 and was mandated for all cars and light trucks manufactured after 9/1/2011.
Advanced warning systems for incompetent drivers have increasing been available over the last ten years. Advanced Driver Assistance and Automated Safety Features have increasing been available over the last five years.

While these latter two are are probably useful for mature drivers, especially those with inferior driving kills. They are really all compensation for driving awareness failures.I continue to believe that the last thing an inexperience driver needs is a crutch to be even more blissfully ignorant of their situational awareness. One purpose of teenage driving is for them to learn how to be good drivers and yes, even have that fender bender or two. This hopefully makes them become aware of their own mortality and the fact that they are driving a two ton missile.

"While these latter two are are probably useful for mature drivers, especially those with inferior driving kills. They are really all compensation for driving awareness failures."
Just about all safety features compensate for full driver ability and awareness.

"One purpose of teenage driving is for them to learn how to be good drivers and yes, even have that fender bender or two."
No fender benders were required for our learning kids - now past their early driving years.
And all of our past 'fender benders' occurred when someone else hit one of our vehicles in the rear or from the side.
YMMV

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mmmodem
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Re: First car for child

Post by mmmodem » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:12 pm

dm200 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:20 am
Yes - at some point - I think early or mid 90's - the Camry and Corolla models both became bigger. So, the Corolla became about the same size as the previous Camrys - and the Camrys got a step bigger as well.

I owned a 1990 Corolla - before the Corolla got bigger.

I think the Honda Civics and Accords each "grew" about the same time.
The constant bloating continues even today. A 2019 Corolla has more passenger volume than a 2001 Camry and is only a mere 200 pounds lighter. Only car rental counters seem to understand that a Civic and Corolla are firmly midsize cars. This constant upsizing of vehicles in the name of safety cannot be sustainable, right? The IIHS already doesn't recommend mid-size Corolla or Civic to teenagers. What happens when the Corolla becomes full-size. Only SUV's and crossovers for new drivers?

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Re: First car for child

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:36 pm

mmmodem wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:12 pm
dm200 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:20 am
Yes - at some point - I think early or mid 90's - the Camry and Corolla models both became bigger. So, the Corolla became about the same size as the previous Camrys - and the Camrys got a step bigger as well.

I owned a 1990 Corolla - before the Corolla got bigger.

I think the Honda Civics and Accords each "grew" about the same time.
The constant bloating continues even today. A 2019 Corolla has more passenger volume than a 2001 Camry and is only a mere 200 pounds lighter. Only car rental counters seem to understand that a Civic and Corolla are firmly midsize cars. This constant upsizing of vehicles in the name of safety cannot be sustainable, right? The IIHS already doesn't recommend mid-size Corolla or Civic to teenagers. What happens when the Corolla becomes full-size. Only SUV's and crossovers for new drivers?
I owned a 78 Honda Accord. It was smaller than a new Civic. Most cars grow over the years. Then the company introduces a new model to fill in the smaller size. Think Fit, BMW 2 series, Audi A3. These models didn't exist until the bloating got big enough that marketers said "hey, I've got a great idea. Why don't we create a new smaller car".
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dm200
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Re: First car for child

Post by dm200 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:58 am

A 2019 Corolla has more passenger volume than a 2001 Camry and is only a mere 200 pounds lighter.
Wow! I did not realize that the Corolla continued to grow - after the bigger bump up in the mid 90's of both the Camry and Corolla!

Broken Man 1999
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Re: First car for child

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:59 am

Sure, no doubt the cars across many models have suffered bloat.

But, probably less bloat than many drivers have experienced! :shock:

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven than I shall not go. " -Mark Twain

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