Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

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quizzer25
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Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by quizzer25 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:27 pm

I'm planning to go with Michelin Energy Saver A/S over Defender and Premier for my Prius.
I believe energy saver will give 2-3 extra miles per gallon and cover the $100 difference quickly.
Any thoughts?

jeff1949
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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by jeff1949 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:44 pm

I had the Energy Savers as original equipment on my 2012 Camry Hybrid and replaced them with the Defenders when the first set wore out. I did not notice a drop in my mileage which remained right at 40 MPG. I now need to replace the Defenders and I just today explored prices and I am thinking of going back to the Energy Savers because they are less expensive......$128 vs. $96 per tire.

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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by iamlucky13 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:37 am

I would expect similar mileage as the stock tires on the Prius, which are also a low rolling resistance design.

My experience with moderately low rolling resistance tires (OEM on an Outback) versus the Michelin Defenders was very different from jeff1949's - at least 10% decrease in mileage with the Defenders, and an increase in road noise.

z0r
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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by z0r » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:48 am

I tried tracking this very carefully on my focus after a switch. I had about a 3% difference lrr to regular all seasons, barely broke even or maybe lost a little with tire cost difference, and went back to regular tires after. I just switched my prius from lrr to high performance all seasons (had these extra from an autocross car) and lost 1mpg.

Biggest savings are actually in expected life of the tire vs other tires. Expected life will be higher on lrr usually. But manufacturer estimates have been a pack of lies in my experience, so it's hard to actually compare this.

Starfish
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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by Starfish » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:15 am

The way I see it, an accident due to bad performance is a lot more expensive than 3mp or whatever.

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RickBoglehead
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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by RickBoglehead » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:51 am

The MPG difference between Energy Savers and Defenders is very, very small. Like 0.2 MPG. Nowhere near 2 to 3 mpg. Note that Michelin only compares to competitors, not themselves. Savings they show, in dollars, not percent, is $400 with gas at $3.75, versus a Bridgestone tire. That is 106.7 gallons, vs Bridgestone not vs Defenders, that you CAN save. At $2.50 a gallon it is $266.67.

The small MPG savings is large only when magnified over a huge number of cars, by a car manufacturer, for EPA ratings and overall fleet MPG.


Defenders last longer. Michelin's warranty is 80,000 for Defenders but 65,000 for Energy Saver A/S.

Defenders are less expensive, not more.. 225/50/R17 at Discount Tire near me is $171 for Defenders and $203 for Energy Savers.

Defenders have the follow ratings, on the Michelin site, which are better overall than Energy Saver A/S (first number is Defenders, 2nd is Energy Saver A/S):

Fuel Efficiency - 8 / 10
Wear Life - 10 / 7
Braking - 10 / 8
Comfort - 9 / 10
Handling - 9 / 8

Note that the Defenders are a BETTER tire overall.

https://www.michelinman.com/tire/michel ... -saver-a-s

https://www.michelinman.com/tire/michel ... r-t-plus-h
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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:27 am

z0r wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:48 am
I just switched my prius from lrr to high performance all seasons (had these extra from an autocross car) and lost 1mpg.
This is both very telling and interesting. Going to extremely sticky performance tires would make one think you'd see a huge drop in mileage, but only 1 mpg is really a big "who cares?". I would expect the AX tires wore out more quickly. Did you find this? Also interested in what tires these were. I'm a former autocrosser (and roadrace driver) and when I see autocross, I'm thinking Hoosier A compound, but I'm sure that's not what you're driving on the street.
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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by tea_pirate » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:23 am

RickBoglehead wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:51 am
The MPG difference between Energy Savers and Defenders is very, very small. Like 0.2 MPG. Nowhere near 2 to 3 mpg.
This is not reflected by the real-life experiences of hundreds of posters on the Priuschat forums who report drops of 3-5 MPG when switching away from LRR tires.

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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by RickBoglehead » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:49 am

tea_pirate wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:23 am
RickBoglehead wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:51 am
The MPG difference between Energy Savers and Defenders is very, very small. Like 0.2 MPG. Nowhere near 2 to 3 mpg.
This is not reflected by the real-life experiences of hundreds of posters on the Priuschat forums who report drops of 3-5 MPG when switching away from LRR tires.
Unless the comparison is done between Michelin Defenders vs. Michelin Energy Saver A/S, it's not meaningful. As I said, Michelin shows savings as compared to a competitor's regular tire, not to their own tire. Doing the math that Michelin provides, it's nowhere near 3-5 MPG.

We had Michelin Energy Savers on our 2010 Fusion Hybrid, purchased in August 2009. In August, 2014 we put on 4 Defenders, because the Energy Savers wore out at 46,000 miles. On the 6 fills before replacing the tires, we got 36.5mpg, 36.1mpg, 35.1mpg, 32.9mpg, 30.17mpg, and 28.6mpg. Note that the lowest ratings are in March when it would have been colder, I worked backwards from the tire replacement. On the 6 fills after replacing the tires, we got 35mpg, 35.6mpg, 34.6mpg, 35.1mp, 31.6mpg, and 30.4mpg. Note that the last 2 numbers in November when it was cold.

A clearer picture is in the first few months of owning the new vehicle as compared the first few months of owning the new Defenders.

September through December 2009 - 36.8mpg, 37.0mpg, 34.5mpg, 33.9mpg, and 31.1mpg.
September through December 2014- 35.6mpg, 34.6mpg, 35.1mpg, 31.6mpg, 30.4mpg, 31.2mpg, and 32.8mpg

Totally unscientific, subjective, etc. No idea how temps compared, which dramatically impact MPG on a hybrid. DRAMATICALLY. Last numbers are in November and December. And when the car was new, we focused more on maximizing mpg and then stopped.

Assuming 12,000 miles per year, if you get 1mpg difference (say 35mpg vs. 34mpg), you use 10 gallons more gas. 10 x $2.50 is $25. Per year x 4 years (tires wear out) = $100. Tires cost more than that. And, you don't get 1mpg better.
Last edited by RickBoglehead on Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by tea_pirate » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:53 am

I also have a 2015 Prius, but a different trim with the 17" wheels.

I would go with the Low Rolling Resistance Tires. My Prius came with some regular Toyo tires on there. I got 70k miles out of those. I'm currently running Bridgestone Ecopia EP422+. I've got 75k miles on them and although I could probably run them to 90k or so I'm going to replace them before the winter just to be safe.

I definitely get much better fuel economy out of the LRR tires. On the Toyo tires I had never, ever seen numbers higher than 55 MPG for a trip of reasonable length no matter how I drove the car. With the LRR tires I can cross 60 MPG even for highway trips. For reference I don't drive like a grandma and I like to cruise around 75 MPH when possible. Just the other day coming back from NH (about 80 miles) I got 63 MPG for the mostly highway drive. I could have done even better if I didn't speed.

On average I'd say the LRR tires raised my fuel economy by at least 5 MPG (I track using Fuelly). Many members on the Priuschat forum report similar numbers when switching to or away from LRR tires.

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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by tea_pirate » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:05 am

RickBoglehead wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:49 am
tea_pirate wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:23 am
RickBoglehead wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:51 am
The MPG difference between Energy Savers and Defenders is very, very small. Like 0.2 MPG. Nowhere near 2 to 3 mpg.
This is not reflected by the real-life experiences of hundreds of posters on the Priuschat forums who report drops of 3-5 MPG when switching away from LRR tires.
Unless the comparison is done between Michelin Defenders vs. Michelin Energy Saver A/S, it's not meaningful. As I said, Michelin shows savings as compared to a competitor's regular tire, not to their own tire. Doing the math that Michelin provides, it's nowhere near 3-5 MPG.
Why would you give any weight to what a company trying to sell you a product is telling you? User testimonials are all that hold value for me.

https://priuschat.com/threads/michelin- ... vs.115028/
https://priuschat.com/threads/michelin-defender.112901/
https://priuschat.com/threads/michelin- ... it.122369/
https://priuschat.com/threads/michelin- ... pg.131088/

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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by RickBoglehead » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:14 am

tea_pirate wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:05 am
RickBoglehead wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:49 am
tea_pirate wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:23 am
RickBoglehead wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:51 am
The MPG difference between Energy Savers and Defenders is very, very small. Like 0.2 MPG. Nowhere near 2 to 3 mpg.
This is not reflected by the real-life experiences of hundreds of posters on the Priuschat forums who report drops of 3-5 MPG when switching away from LRR tires.
Unless the comparison is done between Michelin Defenders vs. Michelin Energy Saver A/S, it's not meaningful. As I said, Michelin shows savings as compared to a competitor's regular tire, not to their own tire. Doing the math that Michelin provides, it's nowhere near 3-5 MPG.
Why would you give any weight to what a company trying to sell you a product is telling you? User testimonials are all that hold value for me.

https://priuschat.com/threads/michelin- ... vs.115028/
https://priuschat.com/threads/michelin-defender.112901/
https://priuschat.com/threads/michelin- ... it.122369/
https://priuschat.com/threads/michelin- ... pg.131088/
User testimonials are not scientific. Many people don't track things properly. Companies can't make claims they cannot substantiate.

A recent CR article on LRR tires states that the best vs. the worst tires saves $40 per year or $215 over the life of a tire, noted as 66,800 miles. The Energy Saver A/S tires don't last more than 2/3 of that in my experience, and the Defenders are NOT the worst tires showing a 27 percent difference. They note that over 12,000 miles driven, they saved 13.4 gallons of gas... https://www.consumerreports.org/tires/l ... y-at-pump/

Defenders cost less than Energy Savers. Michelin would want to have you buy the more expensive tire, and yet in their own numbers show that it takes longer to stop with the Energy Savers... CR notes that safety should be higher on the list than energy saving.
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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by researcher » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:50 am

RickBoglehead wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:14 am
A recent CR article on LRR tires states that the best vs. the worst tires saves $40 per year or $215 over the life of a tire, noted as 66,800 miles. The Energy Saver A/S tires don't last more than 2/3 of that in my experience, and the Defenders are NOT the worst tires showing a 27 percent difference. They note that over 12,000 miles driven, they saved 13.4 gallons of gas... https://www.consumerreports.org/tires/l ... y-at-pump/

Defenders cost less than Energy Savers. Michelin would want to have you buy the more expensive tire, and yet in their own numbers show that it takes longer to stop with the Energy Savers... CR notes that safety should be higher on the list than energy saving.
This analysis is correct.

And I'm surprised this is the first mention of stopping distances.
The inherent traits of LRR tires make for less than ideal braking performance.
Would you rather squeak out a few dollars of fuel savings or be able to stop more quickly when needed?

As JD Power discovered, low-rolling resistance tires are "falling short of customer expectations in terms of satisfaction." ... Several test have confirmed this to be true by proving that most low-rolling resistance tires have long stopping distances at high speeds and lack grip in the corners, both of which could ultimately lead to accident that the same vehicle equipped with a more capable tire might of avoided.
Last edited by researcher on Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by RickBoglehead » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:20 am

researcher wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:50 am
RickBoglehead wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:14 am
A recent CR article on LRR tires states that the best vs. the worst tires saves $40 per year or $215 over the life of a tire, noted as 66,800 miles. The Energy Saver A/S tires don't last more than 2/3 of that in my experience, and the Defenders are NOT the worst tires showing a 27 percent difference. They note that over 12,000 miles driven, they saved 13.4 gallons of gas... https://www.consumerreports.org/tires/l ... y-at-pump/

Defenders cost less than Energy Savers. Michelin would want to have you buy the more expensive tire, and yet in their own numbers show that it takes longer to stop with the Energy Savers... CR notes that safety should be higher on the list than energy saving.
This analysis is correct.

And I'm surprised this is the first mention of stopping distances.
The inherent traits of LRR tires make for less then ideal braking performance.
Would you rather squeak out a few dollars of fuel savings or be able to stop more quickly when needed?

As JD Power discovered, low-rolling resistance tires are "falling short of customer expectations in terms of satisfaction." ... Several test have confirmed this to be true by proving that most low-rolling resistance tires have long stopping distances at high speeds and lack grip in the corners, both of which could ultimately lead to accident that the same vehicle equipped with a more capable tire might of avoided.
Right. Michelin notes on their own site, to which I provided links, that the Defender has better handling (9 vs. 8) and better braking (10 vs. 8) than the Energy Saver. And it costs less. And it wears longer. No way that any "savings" justifies purchasing Energy Saver to me.
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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by tea_pirate » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:34 am

RickBoglehead wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:14 am
tea_pirate wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:05 am
RickBoglehead wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:49 am
tea_pirate wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:23 am
RickBoglehead wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:51 am
The MPG difference between Energy Savers and Defenders is very, very small. Like 0.2 MPG. Nowhere near 2 to 3 mpg.
This is not reflected by the real-life experiences of hundreds of posters on the Priuschat forums who report drops of 3-5 MPG when switching away from LRR tires.
Unless the comparison is done between Michelin Defenders vs. Michelin Energy Saver A/S, it's not meaningful. As I said, Michelin shows savings as compared to a competitor's regular tire, not to their own tire. Doing the math that Michelin provides, it's nowhere near 3-5 MPG.
Why would you give any weight to what a company trying to sell you a product is telling you? User testimonials are all that hold value for me.

https://priuschat.com/threads/michelin- ... vs.115028/
https://priuschat.com/threads/michelin-defender.112901/
https://priuschat.com/threads/michelin- ... it.122369/
https://priuschat.com/threads/michelin- ... pg.131088/
User testimonials are not scientific. Many people don't track things properly. Companies can't make claims they cannot substantiate.

A recent CR article on LRR tires states that the best vs. the worst tires saves $40 per year or $215 over the life of a tire, noted as 66,800 miles. The Energy Saver A/S tires don't last more than 2/3 of that in my experience, and the Defenders are NOT the worst tires showing a 27 percent difference. They note that over 12,000 miles driven, they saved 13.4 gallons of gas... https://www.consumerreports.org/tires/l ... y-at-pump/

Defenders cost less than Energy Savers. Michelin would want to have you buy the more expensive tire, and yet in their own numbers show that it takes longer to stop with the Energy Savers... CR notes that safety should be higher on the list than energy saving.
IMO user testimonials on average are fairly accurate when it comes to these sort of things, since it tends to smooth out the uncontrolled variables on both sides.

But companies can and do manipulate the (undisclosed) test parameters however they need to in order to get the numbers that the marketing team wants to put in their ads. Like the Michelin Energy Saver comparing themselves to their "leading competitor" as the Bridgestone® Turanza® EL400, which is laughable since that isn't even an LRR tire. Meanwhile the Bridgestone Ecopia EP422+ is actually their leading competitor in that market segment and they don't even mention the tire. Then in other tests on the Energy Saver page they compare against the Bridgestone® Ecopia EP100 where convenient, for the wear and wet braking tests which is absolutely hilarious since although that's an LRR tire, it's a summer tire and they're testing their all-season LRR against it.

Use some simple logic - if the stopping distance difference from using Defenders is significant compared to the Energy Savers, then the fuel economy difference should also be significant since the primary variable in both of those scenarios is the friction of the tire on the pavement. You can't have it both ways.

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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by researcher » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:59 am

tea_pirate wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:34 am
Use some simple logic - if the stopping distance difference from using Defenders is significant compared to the Energy Savers, then the fuel economy difference should also be significant since the primary variable in both of those scenarios is the friction of the tire on the pavement. You can't have it both ways.
This is just plain wrong.
The "friction of the tire on the pavement" is far more pronounced/impactful/meaningful during a 70-0 MPH panic stop than it is cruising along at 70 MPH.
Say a 1 MPG improvement and a 20 ft. shorter stopping distance are both statistically significant, but which is more meaningful to you and your family?

The Defenders wears better, brakes better, handles better and are cheaper, which offsets any potential fuel savings you might get from the Energy Savers.

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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by tea_pirate » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:44 am

researcher wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:59 am
tea_pirate wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:34 am
Use some simple logic - if the stopping distance difference from using Defenders is significant compared to the Energy Savers, then the fuel economy difference should also be significant since the primary variable in both of those scenarios is the friction of the tire on the pavement. You can't have it both ways.
This is just plain wrong.
The "friction of the tire on the pavement" is far more pronounced/impactful/meaningful during a 70-0 MPH panic stop than it is cruising along at 70 MPH.
Say a 1 MPG improvement and a 20 ft. shorter stopping distance are both statistically significant, but which is more meaningful to you and your family?

The Defenders wears better, brakes better, handles better and are cheaper, which offsets any potential fuel savings you might get from the Energy Savers.
1 MPG is not statistically significant for the Prius. For what it's worth I've seen at least a 5 MPG benefit after switching to LRR tires (from Toyo to Bridgestone Ecopia). In the 75,000 miles I've already put on the tires this has saved me roughly $400 compared to regular tires and they've got plenty of life left.

Your uber-short stopping distance doesn't much matter when you can stop in time but then get rear-ended by a tailgating soccer mom in her SUV with a 180 foot stopping distance, granny cruising the highway in her Caddy, or even a fully loaded tractor trailer. Or when you take a full second longer to press the brake than I do since your reflexes have decayed with age, traveling another 100 feet during that time.

No thanks. In over 250k miles of driving I've still never encountered a situation where slamming the brakes from highway speed to zero is the correct response. That's pretty much always the hallmark of a bad driver. I'll take my chances with evasive action in most situations save a bridge collapsing across the highway in front of me.

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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by researcher » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:18 pm

tea_pirate wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:44 am
1 MPG is not statistically significant for the Prius. For what it's worth I've seen at least a 5 MPG benefit after switching to LRR tires (from Toyo to Bridgestone Ecopia). In the 75,000 miles I've already put on the tires this has saved me roughly $400 compared to regular tires and they've got plenty of life left.

Your uber-short stopping distance doesn't much matter when you can stop in time but then get rear-ended by a tailgating soccer mom in her SUV with a 180 foot stopping distance, granny cruising the highway in her Caddy, or even a fully loaded tractor trailer. Or when you take a full second longer to press the brake than I do since your reflexes have decayed with age, traveling another 100 feet during that time.

No thanks. In over 250k miles of driving I've still never encountered a situation where slamming the brakes from highway speed to zero is the correct response. That's pretty much always the hallmark of a bad driver. I'll take my chances with evasive action in most situations save a bridge collapsing across the highway in front of me.
As was pointed out earlier, your 5 MPG gain is based on comparing apples (Toyo) to oranges (Bridgestone Ecopia).
The only value that matters here is what you would gain going from Michelin Defenders to Michelin Energy Savers.

Your disregard for stopping distances is also quite odd. There are many circumstances where stopping distances matter which don't end in you being rear-ended by another driver…A person/bicyclist/animal steps out into the road in front of you, a piece of debris suddenly appears on the roadway, an accident unfolds in front of you…This kind of stuff happens all the time.

And you mention that you'll "take my chances with evasive action," yet your LRR tires have a lower handling rating, making them less capable is such emergency scenarios. So your car can’t stop as quickly AND your car can’t handle as well! But who cares, because you saved a few bucks/year on gas!

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Just bought Michelin Defender at Costco $110 off

Post by Socrates » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:28 pm

top rated, smooth ride, 80,000 warranty so very good tread life.
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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by Momus » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:42 pm

I replaced my tires with the cheapest discount tires have. $50-60/tires. Done around $250.

Notice no drops in mileage or performance. Wear a bit faster at 50-60k miles but who cares for $250 only?

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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by tea_pirate » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:26 pm

researcher wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:18 pm
As was pointed out earlier, your 5 MPG gain is based on comparing apples (Toyo) to oranges (Bridgestone Ecopia).
The only value that matters here is what you would gain going from Michelin Defenders to Michelin Energy Savers.
That's my entire point, the Defenders versus the Energy Savers is an apples versus oranges comparison, despite whatever Michelin claims.
researcher wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:18 pm
Your disregard for stopping distances is also quite odd. There are many circumstances where stopping distances matter which don't end in you being rear-ended by another driver…A person/bicyclist/animal steps out into the road in front of you, a piece of debris suddenly appears on the roadway, an accident unfolds in front of you…This kind of stuff happens all the time.
Oh well, if someone steps out in front of me my dash cam will show that I tried to stop to the best of my ability and absolve me of liability. As long as my tires have a road legal amount of tread I won't be getting sued over having LRR tires on my car.
researcher wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:18 pm
And you mention that you'll "take my chances with evasive action," yet your LRR tires have a lower handling rating, making them less capable is such emergency scenarios. So your car can’t stop as quickly AND your car can’t handle as well! But who cares, because you saved a few bucks/year on gas!
I've successfully avoided ladders, dead deer, live deer/moose, couches, what appeared to be a semi's entire exhaust system that fell off in front of me, flying retreads from blown semi tires, multiple flying pieces of sheet metal, and boulders the size of a car. Many of these happened at night so I had even less warning. I avoided hitting all of these objects with moderate braking and evasive action on my "poor handling" LRR tires in a Prius. In none of these situations was slamming the brakes to the floor the correct response, and if anything would have made me more likely to lose control of the vehicle.

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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by researcher » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:41 pm

tea_pirate wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:26 pm
That's my entire point, the Defenders versus the Energy Savers is an apples versus oranges comparison, despite whatever Michelin claims.
The entire point of this thread is to directly compare these two models of Michelin tires...re-read the OP.
It is not about Toyo vs. Bridgestone Ecopia.
Oh well, if someone steps out in front of me my dash cam will show that I tried to stop to the best of my ability and absolve me of liability. As long as my tires have a road legal amount of tread I won't be getting sued over having LRR tires on my car.
Huh? You don't care about stopping distances because of dash cams, legal tread amounts, and absolving liability?
What about just not wanting to damage your own car if something happens, or not wanting to injure/kill a little kid who might run out into the street after a ball?
I've successfully avoided ladders, dead deer, live deer/moose... I avoided hitting all of these objects with moderate braking and evasive action on my "poor handling" LRR tires in a Prius. In none of these situations was slamming the brakes to the floor the correct response, and if anything would have made me more likely to lose control of the vehicle.
That is great you've avoided such accidents thus far. But that doesn't mean the deer or truck exhaust won't appear on the road 10 ft closer to your car next time. I just don't understand why you are advocating for LONGER stopping distances and not LESS.

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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by iamlucky13 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:28 pm

researcher wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:41 pm
The entire point of this thread is to directly compare these two models of Michelin tires...re-read the OP.
I doubt that because quizzer25 mentions those two specifically, they are only willing to consider that specific low-rolling resistance tire.

But if the Michelin Energy Saver is as unimpressive of an LRR tire as you have stated, then the logical next step should be to compare the Defender to other LRR tires instead.

Other LRR tires DO provide better mileage than the Defender, as well as less road noise. On the other hand, if I remember right, in addition to very good traction, Consumer Reports testing showed the Defender also performed well above average for life expectancy in their testing.

Also, the discussion about the tradeoff between traction and efficiency is trending in an unproductive direction. Rather than get bogged down with a lot of what has been said before, may I suggest we just start over from this perspective:
Starfish wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:15 am
The way I see it, an accident due to bad performance is a lot more expensive than 3mp or whatever.
That there are drawbacks to low rolling resistance tires is a reasonable point, but also keeping in mind that it is reasonable for different users to hold different priorities. The DOT sets the minimum level of reasonableness, at least if we take the law as a proxy for the nebulous concept of reasonableness, with the standards by which they approve tires for sale.

Yes, an accident is going to be more expensive than a couple mpg (for an average car in the US getting 27.5 MPG, an increase to 29.5 MPG is $380 over the life of a 60,000 mile tire at current gas prices), but not every driver will have an accident, and certainly not one accident per set of tires. Of those who do have accidents, some fraction of them would have been prevented with a higher traction tire, some fraction would still have occurred but not be as severe, and some fraction (I think a large majority) would have been unaffected by the tire.

So while there is reduction of a risk of significant consequences, it only becomes a realized benefit for that subset of users for whom the higher traction tire results in avoiding or lessening the severity of an accident. On the other hand, if a certain tire does provide an actual mileage improvement, although it is a small benefit, it is a continually-realized benefit. These low probability/high severity and high probability/low severity scenarios are always a bit difficult to compare in risk analyses.

So overall: make the point and identify your priorities if you care to, try to quantify the benefits if possible, and then let the OP interpret that information according to their own priorities.

I suppose it is possible to reduce the subjectivity by applying some level of rigor to create a levelized cost of accidents for LRR tires in the form of (average cost per average accident) x (marginal risk). However, since the insurance companies don't charge higher rates for having LRR tires on your vehicles as far as I know, I'm skeptical this levelized cost of accidents is very high.

Starfish
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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by Starfish » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:53 pm

es, an accident is going to be more expensive than a couple mpg (for an average car in the US getting 27.5 MPG, an increase to 29.5 MPG is $380 over the life of a 60,000 mile tire at current gas prices), but not every driver will have an accident, and certainly not one accident per set of tires. Of those who do have accidents, some fraction of them would have been prevented with a higher traction tire, some fraction would still have occurred but not be as severe, and some fraction (I think a large majority) would have been unaffected by the tire.
There are 3 cases that worry me and come to mind:
1. Sudden stop on highway (maybe wet/slippery). It happens quite often. Braking distance shorter by 1 ft means avoiding couple/several thousands in expenses.
2. Winter driving. I would definitely not take low resistance tires in any winter conditions. An accident will have also a high probability.
3. Major accident with loss of life or worse. This one has very low probability but the cost is infinite.


Unlike buying safer cars, the amounts of money involved here are very small. Cost of tires is not that high, money saved on gas are almost 0.
This is why I always buy the best rated tires I can. They are also a lot more fun to drive.

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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by Starfish » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:57 pm

However, since the insurance companies don't charge higher rates for having LRR tires on your vehicles as far as I know, I'm skeptical this levelized cost of accidents is very high.
Maybe because people who buy these tires also drive slower and are less prone to expensive accidents? On average it could cancel out.
Good tires do make me drive faster on the winding roads where I live. But that is not a fair comparison.

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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by surfstar » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:07 pm

I find Michelin overpriced in general.

You just missed the Labor Day sale for America's Tire / Discount Tire Direct. When they have rebates combined with sales/rebates you can get the best price by far.
Costco will even install the tires for you (at the best price, I've found, if no America's tire is around) and still have lifetime rotations included.

I'm a fan of Hankook and Kumho - great value for the performance. Again, with the DTD deals, I've bought tires (yes 4) for $200 or less, including installation.

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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by z0r » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:09 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:27 am
z0r wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:48 am
I just switched my prius from lrr to high performance all seasons (had these extra from an autocross car) and lost 1mpg.
This is both very telling and interesting. Going to extremely sticky performance tires would make one think you'd see a huge drop in mileage, but only 1 mpg is really a big "who cares?". I would expect the AX tires wore out more quickly. Did you find this? Also interested in what tires these were. I'm a former autocrosser (and roadrace driver) and when I see autocross, I'm thinking Hoosier A compound, but I'm sure that's not what you're driving on the street.
there are popular autocross categories for 200 treadwear street tires. to be precise they're actually from a 24 hours of lemons car (same treadwear limit)

I just put them on this year but yeah I expect I won't get much life out of them. but they were going to waste otherwise. and yeah the mpg hit was surprisingly small, I was expecting 2-3mpg

TBillT
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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by TBillT » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:43 pm

2006 Prius owner here.
We live in Northeast and usually the best MPG tires are not the best all-season tires in winter.
So I normally go for compromise. Recent years that has been Conti True Contacts, which are going out of production, so not sure next new idea. But I may grab a couple more of those while I can.

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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by kevinf » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:41 am

TBillT wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:43 pm
So I normally go for compromise. Recent years that has been Conti True Contacts, which are going out of production, so not sure next new idea. But I
I put the Continental TrueContacts on my vehicle as well and I will highly recommend them. Snow/Wet performance is excellent, and general traction is fantastic. They are also marked as + fuel economy so no real downsides here.

I have set of Firestone Winterforce 2's that I put on when temps average below 40f which I also quite like.

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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by bottlecap » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:54 am

I'd get the best tire. I ignore the marketing, especially on tires.

I'd be highly skeptical of claims of 2-3 mpg savings between this tire and a normal all-season. While not huge on your pocketbook, that's a huge (5 to 7%) difference efficiency-wise, especially for a Prius. All tire manufacturers have an incentive to make more "efficient" tires, and Michelin doesn't have a magic secret, so the claim makes no sense. All such claims deserve a gimlet eye.

"Real world" claims of mileage drops by owners - especially ones that want to "believe" - are even more questionable.

Research and get the best tire for your vehicle.

JT

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Nate79
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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by Nate79 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:35 am

Auto manufacturers spend huge amount of resources to increase the mpg of the cars even 1mpg including a lot of work with the tire manufacturers. If you could really change out the tire from stock tires and get such a huge increase they would have done it already.

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Re: Michelin Energy Saver A/S tire for 2015 Prius 3

Post by iamlucky13 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:37 pm

Nate79 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:35 am
Auto manufacturers spend huge amount of resources to increase the mpg of the cars even 1mpg including a lot of work with the tire manufacturers. If you could really change out the tire from stock tires and get such a huge increase they would have done it already.
As noted upthread, there are tradeoffs between rolling resistance and traction, especially in differing road conditions, and different customer preferences that influence what gets equipped on OEM cars, especially in different categories - eg - sticker mileage is a lot more important to Prius buyers than to Suburban drivers.

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