How to help niece improve her driving

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randomguy
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by randomguy » Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:46 pm

livesoft wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:22 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:05 pm
AutoX is incredibly safe, and a great way to make a safer driver. Accidents often happen when one driver exceeds the performance envelope of their vehicle- they cannot stop in time or loose control.
I'm trying to understand your incongruent statements.
Autocross is safe cause when you lose control you hit some cones. Losing control on the highway isn't safe. But I question the idea that accidents are happening because people are exceeding the performance envelop of the car. Sure it happens occasionally where someone takes a turn too fast and the like. But that is much more a reading comphrension issue (you know that sign that says 35mph and thinking that means 65mph) than a car control one. Compare the accidents caused by driving at legal speeds and have control issues and losing control with accidents caused running red lights, merging into someone, not braking and rear ending someone, tailgating, driving into the other lane because you pointed the steering wheel there, and so on. Occasionally the limits drop low enough to be an issue but those tend to be pretty obvious and I bet if the OP was driving in a ice storm it would have been mentioned. I sort of doubt the niece was aggressively at the limits of the car. My money would be on her just not paying attention. Or the OP overreacting.

livesoft
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by livesoft » Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:46 pm

^Right. I think perhaps a majority of car accidents happen at 5 mph or so in parking lots or bumper-to-bumper traffic. This where many of the active safety features of new models of vehicles have good chances of reducing accidents.
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alfaspider
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by alfaspider » Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:51 pm

livesoft wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:22 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:05 pm
AutoX is incredibly safe, and a great way to make a safer driver. Accidents often happen when one driver exceeds the performance envelope of their vehicle- they cannot stop in time or loose control.
I'm trying to understand your incongruent statements.
They are set up so there’s nothing to hit other than cones. You can spin out or blow your braking zone over and over again without consequence other then penalty seconds.

alfaspider
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by alfaspider » Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:54 pm

randomguy wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:46 pm
livesoft wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:22 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:05 pm
AutoX is incredibly safe, and a great way to make a safer driver. Accidents often happen when one driver exceeds the performance envelope of their vehicle- they cannot stop in time or loose control.
I'm trying to understand your incongruent statements.
Autocross is safe cause when you lose control you hit some cones. Losing control on the highway isn't safe. But I question the idea that accidents are happening because people are exceeding the performance envelop of the car. Sure it happens occasionally where someone takes a turn too fast and the like. But that is much more a reading comphrension issue (you know that sign that says 35mph and thinking that means 65mph) than a car control one. Compare the accidents caused by driving at legal speeds and have control issues and losing control with accidents caused running red lights, merging into someone, not braking and rear ending someone, tailgating, driving into the other lane because you pointed the steering wheel there, and so on. Occasionally the limits drop low enough to be an issue but those tend to be pretty obvious and I bet if the OP was driving in a ice storm it would have been mentioned. I sort of doubt the niece was aggressively at the limits of the car. My money would be on her just not paying attention. Or the OP overreacting.
The time when the limit is exceeded is generally right before impact- not that they were generally driving at the limit of the car. Following too close is often the result of not understanding how little room for error they are leaving. Losing control is often the result of sudden evasive maneuvers undertaken by people who don’t know what their car can and cannot accomplish.

I agree that performance driving experience won’t make someone pay attention.

sawhorse
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by sawhorse » Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:39 pm

FI4LIFE wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:24 pm
tibbitts wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:44 pm
FI4LIFE wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:46 am
I would suggest a driving course using manual transmission. Gives you a better feel for the car. She might even benefit from permanently driving stick, assuming she can figure it out and if that's even possible today with almost exclusively automatic vehicles.
Why would this be beneficial? It's just another task to do. The only description we have so far of any problem isn't related to car control, it's related to making decisions (carefree approach to making turns in the OP's example.)
Read again and tell me where OP said anything about making decisions? They said she needs to learn basic techniques and increased concentration.

Learning how to allow the vehicle transmission to slow the car down prior to applying the brakes is a great skill to learn and generally the most neglected skill I've noticed in drivers I would classify as "scary"...i.e. last second stoppers. Manual transmission does not allow you to zone out (for the most part) because you need to focus on shifting, which encourages reading the vehicles in front of you and taking appropriate actions (choosing lower, higher or same gear) instead of the mindless "stop, go, stop, go" technique that most terrible drivers employ. The best thing I ever did in relation to driving is learning stick shift as a teenager.
Stick shift can lead to pretty bad habits. In stop and go local roads where there is a stop sign every block, I find myself coming to a full stop less often than with an automatic because I don't want to go through the hassle of getting back into 1st. I also find myself depressing the clutch long before the stop light because I don't want to downshift.

tibbitts
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by tibbitts » Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:53 pm

sawhorse wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:39 pm
FI4LIFE wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:24 pm
tibbitts wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:44 pm
FI4LIFE wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:46 am
I would suggest a driving course using manual transmission. Gives you a better feel for the car. She might even benefit from permanently driving stick, assuming she can figure it out and if that's even possible today with almost exclusively automatic vehicles.
Why would this be beneficial? It's just another task to do. The only description we have so far of any problem isn't related to car control, it's related to making decisions (carefree approach to making turns in the OP's example.)
Read again and tell me where OP said anything about making decisions? They said she needs to learn basic techniques and increased concentration.

Learning how to allow the vehicle transmission to slow the car down prior to applying the brakes is a great skill to learn and generally the most neglected skill I've noticed in drivers I would classify as "scary"...i.e. last second stoppers. Manual transmission does not allow you to zone out (for the most part) because you need to focus on shifting, which encourages reading the vehicles in front of you and taking appropriate actions (choosing lower, higher or same gear) instead of the mindless "stop, go, stop, go" technique that most terrible drivers employ. The best thing I ever did in relation to driving is learning stick shift as a teenager.
Stick shift can lead to pretty bad habits. In stop and go local roads where there is a stop sign every block, I find myself coming to a full stop less often than with an automatic because I don't want to go through the hassle of getting back into 1st. I also find myself depressing the clutch long before the stop light because I don't want to downshift.
Now sometimes people don't come to a full stop because they don't want their engine to shut off, so the same problem.

tibbitts
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by tibbitts » Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:56 pm

alfaspider wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:51 pm
livesoft wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:22 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:05 pm
AutoX is incredibly safe, and a great way to make a safer driver. Accidents often happen when one driver exceeds the performance envelope of their vehicle- they cannot stop in time or loose control.
I'm trying to understand your incongruent statements.
They are set up so there’s nothing to hit other than cones. You can spin out or blow your braking zone over and over again without consequence other then penalty seconds.
I've done autocross and don't see any relation between it and making someone a safer driver. There is no indication from the OP that anyone has come anywhere close to straining the performance capability of a vehicle.

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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:25 pm

livesoft wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:07 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:37 am
Have her look into local autocrosses.
Great advice which I take to mean: Have her go out and kill herself driving. Problem solved.

You have reported that at least one of your children totaled a car. Was that a problem? How was it solved?
My older son totaled my Jeep in the winter cresting the top of a hill, in 4 wheel drive, with snow tires at night in winter when a bunch of teenagers were fooling around at the end of a driveway. One appeared to be coming into the road. My son swerved and the flash frozen road made the Jeep slide and it hit a pole. None of the kids were hit. The tow truck who came to take the Jeep away hit that same ice and went off the road, and had to use his winch to get back on the road.

Another night, my son was driving a dark, narrow windy road in a Honda CRX and came over a hill and a deer was literally standing in the middle of the road, staring into his headlights. Having been trained threshold braking, he first brought the tires to a skid but was able to back off in an instant, getting the tires rolling again and turn to avoid the deer. Had he not been trained, he would have likely done what the average driver would do and mash the brake, hit the deer, putting the body of the deer through the windshield and very likely killing him and his friend.

I assume you have no idea what an autocross is. Please google it. Even at a pro level, speeds are rarely over 40 mph and the only thing you'd hit are cones. Not sure how anyone would kill themselves on an autocross course. Perhaps a heart attack. Does she have a cardiac history? I do....and I survived years of autocross and track driving.
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randomguy
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by randomguy » Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:35 pm

alfaspider wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:54 pm


The time when the limit is exceeded is generally right before impact- not that they were generally driving at the limit of the car. Following too close is often the result of not understanding how little room for error they are leaving. Losing control is often the result of sudden evasive maneuvers undertaken by people who don’t know what their car can and cannot accomplish.

I agree that performance driving experience won’t make someone pay attention.
If you are trying to be a safer driver, so you work on what to do when you screw up or should you focus on learning how not to screw up. A good driver basically never does evasive maneuvers so it doesn't matter how good you are at them. If you are counting on car control to avoid impact, you are doomed.

Personally I think tailgaters know they can't stop. They don't care.

Wakefield1
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by Wakefield1 » Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:29 pm

Cars are a major expense and I think,one of the reasons why many people never seem to build assets that would enable them to choose a better lifestyle after a number of years of employment.
The way people treat the cars has a bearing on how long the cars last and how much money must be expended on repairing the cars or replacing them. Being careless in driving wears the car out prematurely and leads to more expenses in brake jobs,tires,and other expenses related to such things as hitting potholes at speed. Not just the increased chance of trying to occupy the same space as some other nearby car.
So perhaps her thrift instincts can be enlisted to get her to be more careful with the car. It costs money to tear it up unnecessarily.

tibbitts
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by tibbitts » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:41 am

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:25 pm
livesoft wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:07 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:37 am
Have her look into local autocrosses.
Great advice which I take to mean: Have her go out and kill herself driving. Problem solved.

You have reported that at least one of your children totaled a car. Was that a problem? How was it solved?
My older son totaled my Jeep in the winter cresting the top of a hill, in 4 wheel drive, with snow tires at night in winter when a bunch of teenagers were fooling around at the end of a driveway. One appeared to be coming into the road. My son swerved and the flash frozen road made the Jeep slide and it hit a pole. None of the kids were hit. The tow truck who came to take the Jeep away hit that same ice and went off the road, and had to use his winch to get back on the road.

Another night, my son was driving a dark, narrow windy road in a Honda CRX and came over a hill and a deer was literally standing in the middle of the road, staring into his headlights. Having been trained threshold braking, he first brought the tires to a skid but was able to back off in an instant, getting the tires rolling again and turn to avoid the deer. Had he not been trained, he would have likely done what the average driver would do and mash the brake, hit the deer, putting the body of the deer through the windshield and very likely killing him and his friend.

I assume you have no idea what an autocross is. Please google it. Even at a pro level, speeds are rarely over 40 mph and the only thing you'd hit are cones. Not sure how anyone would kill themselves on an autocross course. Perhaps a heart attack. Does she have a cardiac history? I do....and I survived years of autocross and track driving.
I don't understand the point about the deer - in the modern era you would simply stomp on the brakes, the natural reaction, and stop essentially as fast as physically possible.

I can't imagine being injured in autocross - definitely not at the speeds I was able to reach. However, especially if you have enough practice or actual run opportunities (this varies a lot with the venue), your car can suffer more wear and tear, and possibly even damage (things like missing a shift could - theoretically of course - happen), than during normal operation.

FI4LIFE
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by FI4LIFE » Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:33 am

livesoft wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:47 pm
FI4LIFE wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:24 pm
....
Learning how to allow the vehicle transmission to slow the car down prior to applying the brakes is a great skill to learn and generally the most neglected skill I've noticed in drivers I would classify as "scary"...i.e. last second stoppers. ....
You mean learning to take your foot off the gas and coasting well before you need to stop? That has little to do with manual transmission since it can be done with automatics just as easily. :)

Full disclosure: I drove a manual until about 2002.
It's a physical reinforcement of the habit, IMO.

suemarkp
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by suemarkp » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:04 pm

Accidents was referring to crashes when not auto crossing.

On an autocross course, if you exceed the limit of your vehicle you run over rubber cones. If you don't know where the edges of your car are, you run over rubber cones.

I'm not sure of the OP's true problem really is. Racing type courses help hone skills, learn your vehicle boundaries, teach people about limits, and that the limits aren't constant (e.g. high friction pavement, slick pavement, wet road). But if she is just pulling out in front of people, she needs a different kind of help. I'm appalled at some of the things I see people doing today. Some is just "me first, I'm not waiting", others seem totally blind (don't see things until they are right up on them, and the racing schools do teach you to look way further out past your hood), or blatant rule violations (making right turns from the left lane), etc.
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StormShadow
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by StormShadow » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:12 pm

I’m going to suggest something a little unorthodox.

How about watching re-runs of Canada’s Worst Driver (lots on YouTube). At the very least, it’s worth a few laughs. :beer

tibbitts
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by tibbitts » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:17 pm

Incidentally I'm not sure hitting those rubber cones never causes any damage.

chevca
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by chevca » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:59 pm

Remember the good old days when the advice would have been, tell her parents to be parents, chew her butt out, and tell her to start driving smart and pay attention?

Nowadays, kids get to be idiots and go to cool courses because of it??? :confused :oops: Yikes!

tibbitts
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by tibbitts » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:52 pm

chevca wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:59 pm
Remember the good old days when the advice would have been, tell her parents to be parents, chew her butt out, and tell her to start driving smart and pay attention?

Nowadays, kids get to be idiots and go to cool courses because of it??? :confused :oops: Yikes!
You mean the "good old days" when she would have had 4 kids of her own by that age, and probably wouldn't have a car or a driver's license?

chevca
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by chevca » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:42 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:52 pm
chevca wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:59 pm
Remember the good old days when the advice would have been, tell her parents to be parents, chew her butt out, and tell her to start driving smart and pay attention?

Nowadays, kids get to be idiots and go to cool courses because of it??? :confused :oops: Yikes!
You mean the "good old days" when she would have had 4 kids of her own by that age, and probably wouldn't have a car or a driver's license?
Uh, what?? :confused

You must not be familiar with all the modern teen mom shows. Your point makes no sense.

sawhorse
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by sawhorse » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:56 pm

chevca wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:59 pm
Remember the good old days when the advice would have been, tell her parents to be parents, chew her butt out, and tell her to start driving smart and pay attention?

Nowadays, kids get to be idiots and go to cool courses because of it??? :confused :oops: Yikes!
And that did little to improve driving. There were loads of bad drivers then too. Drunk driving was more common than it is now. Seatbelt use was dismal back then. Unfortunately, although drunk driving has decreased and seatbelt use has increased, other unsafe driving, such as phone use, has emerged.
chevca wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:42 pm
tibbitts wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:52 pm
chevca wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:59 pm
Remember the good old days when the advice would have been, tell her parents to be parents, chew her butt out, and tell her to start driving smart and pay attention?

Nowadays, kids get to be idiots and go to cool courses because of it??? :confused :oops: Yikes!
You mean the "good old days" when she would have had 4 kids of her own by that age, and probably wouldn't have a car or a driver's license?
Uh, what?? :confused

You must not be familiar with all the modern teen mom shows. Your point makes no sense.
Teen pregnancy is the lowest it's ever been.

tibbitts
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by tibbitts » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:25 pm

chevca wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:42 pm
tibbitts wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:52 pm
chevca wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:59 pm
Remember the good old days when the advice would have been, tell her parents to be parents, chew her butt out, and tell her to start driving smart and pay attention?

Nowadays, kids get to be idiots and go to cool courses because of it??? :confused :oops: Yikes!
You mean the "good old days" when she would have had 4 kids of her own by that age, and probably wouldn't have a car or a driver's license?
Uh, what?? :confused

You must not be familiar with all the modern teen mom shows. Your point makes no sense.
You must not be familiar with the average age for a female having a first child in the U.S: it has increased by roughly 5 years over the past 40 years or so. Even as recently as that, a much lower percentage of women drove than did men. It's only been very recently that the percentage of female drivers has passed 50%.

The point is that the good old days weren't necessarily the good old days for everyone.

Atilla
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by Atilla » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:35 pm

Don't ride with your niece if it bugs you. Problem solved. You ain't ever gonna get a "bad" driver to drive the way you would. And as a motorcycle rider of 35 years - believe me - there are a lot of bad cage drivers out there. Truly clueless.
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chevca
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by chevca » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:41 pm

So, the more things change, the more they stay the same? Thanks, y'all. :shock:

Then it's highly unlikely a cool autocross or EVOC course is going to change a bad driver, right? I mean since there have always been bad drivers and all. Teaching this young lady just how fast she can drive is probably scary. Since none of that stuff translates all that well to actual streets with bumps, holes, other cars, people, etc.

Not every female was pregnant with 4 kids by the time they were 25 "back in the day" either. Your point is still silly.

A good butt chewing did wonders though for me and many of my friends "back in the day"... or, at least got us to go be silly on the back roads where no one else was.

I guess my point is, don't depend on everyone else to teach your kids things.

Maybe the answer is as simple as everyone refuses to ride with her and tell her it's because of her driving? Maybe that gets her to slow down and pay more attention.

livesoft
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by livesoft » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:56 pm

chevca wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:41 pm
Maybe the answer is as simple as everyone refuses to ride with her and tell her it's because of her driving? Maybe that gets her to slow down and pay more attention.
Maybe she's a tentative driver that is always braking and going way too slow for the traffic or stopping at green lights? That is, she is not doing what other drivers expect of a sane, confident, safe driver.
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chevca
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by chevca » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:12 pm

Maybe? But, this doesn't sound like your tentative possibility.
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She drove and I felt my life pass in front of me. She admits to probably needing some type of defensive driving course or professional refreshing on her driving technique, although she has been driving for 7 years with one minor accident. I would characterize it as a necessity (I'm no pro, but I found her carefree approach to making turns, etc. quite alarming).

sawhorse
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by sawhorse » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:37 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:53 pm
sawhorse wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:39 pm
FI4LIFE wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:24 pm
Read again and tell me where OP said anything about making decisions? They said she needs to learn basic techniques and increased concentration.

Learning how to allow the vehicle transmission to slow the car down prior to applying the brakes is a great skill to learn and generally the most neglected skill I've noticed in drivers I would classify as "scary"...i.e. last second stoppers. Manual transmission does not allow you to zone out (for the most part) because you need to focus on shifting, which encourages reading the vehicles in front of you and taking appropriate actions (choosing lower, higher or same gear) instead of the mindless "stop, go, stop, go" technique that most terrible drivers employ. The best thing I ever did in relation to driving is learning stick shift as a teenager.
Stick shift can lead to pretty bad habits. In stop and go local roads where there is a stop sign every block, I find myself coming to a full stop less often than with an automatic because I don't want to go through the hassle of getting back into 1st. I also find myself depressing the clutch long before the stop light because I don't want to downshift.
Now sometimes people don't come to a full stop because they don't want their engine to shut off, so the same problem.
:confused What do you mean? It's been years since I've driven an automatic, but I don't ever remember my engine shutting off when I stopped at a stop sign.

tibbitts
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by tibbitts » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:41 pm

chevca wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:41 pm
So, the more things change, the more they stay the same? Thanks, y'all. :shock:

Then it's highly unlikely a cool autocross or EVOC course is going to change a bad driver, right? I mean since there have always been bad drivers and all. Teaching this young lady just how fast she can drive is probably scary. Since none of that stuff translates all that well to actual streets with bumps, holes, other cars, people, etc.

Not every female was pregnant with 4 kids by the time they were 25 "back in the day" either. Your point is still silly.

A good butt chewing did wonders though for me and many of my friends "back in the day"... or, at least got us to go be silly on the back roads where no one else was.

I guess my point is, don't depend on everyone else to teach your kids things.

Maybe the answer is as simple as everyone refuses to ride with her and tell her it's because of her driving? Maybe that gets her to slow down and pay more attention.
I believe that while parent-child disagreements surely occurred from time to time, a minority of parents gave their 25-year-old children a "butt chewing" back in the day. If fact that parental "butt chewing" behavior might be more common with parents and 25-year-olds today, because today a 25-year-old might be more likely to be living at home and be financially dependent on parents.

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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by tibbitts » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:43 pm

sawhorse wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:37 pm
tibbitts wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:53 pm
sawhorse wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:39 pm
FI4LIFE wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:24 pm
Read again and tell me where OP said anything about making decisions? They said she needs to learn basic techniques and increased concentration.

Learning how to allow the vehicle transmission to slow the car down prior to applying the brakes is a great skill to learn and generally the most neglected skill I've noticed in drivers I would classify as "scary"...i.e. last second stoppers. Manual transmission does not allow you to zone out (for the most part) because you need to focus on shifting, which encourages reading the vehicles in front of you and taking appropriate actions (choosing lower, higher or same gear) instead of the mindless "stop, go, stop, go" technique that most terrible drivers employ. The best thing I ever did in relation to driving is learning stick shift as a teenager.
Stick shift can lead to pretty bad habits. In stop and go local roads where there is a stop sign every block, I find myself coming to a full stop less often than with an automatic because I don't want to go through the hassle of getting back into 1st. I also find myself depressing the clutch long before the stop light because I don't want to downshift.
Now sometimes people don't come to a full stop because they don't want their engine to shut off, so the same problem.
:confused What do you mean? It's been years since I've driven an automatic, but I don't ever remember my engine shutting off when I stopped at a stop sign.
You need to test-drive a newer car. It's very common for engines to shut off automatically any time the vehicles comes to a stop, with a few exceptions depending on implementation. And it's becoming increasingly common to not be able to disable that behavior.

chevca
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by chevca » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:54 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:41 pm
chevca wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:41 pm
So, the more things change, the more they stay the same? Thanks, y'all. :shock:

Then it's highly unlikely a cool autocross or EVOC course is going to change a bad driver, right? I mean since there have always been bad drivers and all. Teaching this young lady just how fast she can drive is probably scary. Since none of that stuff translates all that well to actual streets with bumps, holes, other cars, people, etc.

Not every female was pregnant with 4 kids by the time they were 25 "back in the day" either. Your point is still silly.

A good butt chewing did wonders though for me and many of my friends "back in the day"... or, at least got us to go be silly on the back roads where no one else was.

I guess my point is, don't depend on everyone else to teach your kids things.

Maybe the answer is as simple as everyone refuses to ride with her and tell her it's because of her driving? Maybe that gets her to slow down and pay more attention.
I believe that while parent-child disagreements surely occurred from time to time, a minority of parents gave their 25-year-old children a "butt chewing" back in the day. If fact that parental "butt chewing" behavior might be more common with parents and 25-year-olds today, because today a 25-year-old might be more likely to be living at home and be financially dependent on parents.
Where did all those 25 year olds with 4 kids and no driver's license live back then? :wink:

sawhorse
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by sawhorse » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:29 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:43 pm
sawhorse wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:37 pm
tibbitts wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:53 pm
Now sometimes people don't come to a full stop because they don't want their engine to shut off, so the same problem.
:confused What do you mean? It's been years since I've driven an automatic, but I don't ever remember my engine shutting off when I stopped at a stop sign.
You need to test-drive a newer car. It's very common for engines to shut off automatically any time the vehicles comes to a stop, with a few exceptions depending on implementation. And it's becoming increasingly common to not be able to disable that behavior.
Interesting. Why are cars designed to do that these days, i.e., what is the advantage?

tibbitts
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by tibbitts » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:51 pm

sawhorse wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:29 pm
tibbitts wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:43 pm
sawhorse wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:37 pm
tibbitts wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:53 pm
Now sometimes people don't come to a full stop because they don't want their engine to shut off, so the same problem.
:confused What do you mean? It's been years since I've driven an automatic, but I don't ever remember my engine shutting off when I stopped at a stop sign.
You need to test-drive a newer car. It's very common for engines to shut off automatically any time the vehicles comes to a stop, with a few exceptions depending on implementation. And it's becoming increasingly common to not be able to disable that behavior.
Interesting. Why are cars designed to do that these days, i.e., what is the advantage?
Fuel economy and emissions, an attempt to meet increasingly demanding requirements.

alfaspider
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by alfaspider » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:30 pm

randomguy wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:35 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:54 pm


The time when the limit is exceeded is generally right before impact- not that they were generally driving at the limit of the car. Following too close is often the result of not understanding how little room for error they are leaving. Losing control is often the result of sudden evasive maneuvers undertaken by people who don’t know what their car can and cannot accomplish.

I agree that performance driving experience won’t make someone pay attention.
If you are trying to be a safer driver, so you work on what to do when you screw up or should you focus on learning how not to screw up. A good driver basically never does evasive maneuvers so it doesn't matter how good you are at them. If you are counting on car control to avoid impact, you are doomed.

Personally I think tailgaters know they can't stop. They don't care.
A good driver will rarely need evasive maneuvers, but sometimes things can happen even to the most defensive of drivers. Car control is a last line of defense, but is a line of defense nonetheless.

I likely had my life saved by a driver who was able to execute a good evasive maneuver. We were traveling in rural Wyoming on a highway that had been narrowed to two lanes (one each direction) with traffic cones on either side due to bridge work, where the remaining bridge was only two lanes. A car (likely drunk) swerved into our lanes just before the bridge. The driver expertly managed to swerve through the cones and back before the bridge without losing control. A less skilled driver would have likely lost control and gone of the bridge or had a head-on collision.

By contrast, a family member of mine was in a serious accident because he lost control in an evasive maneuver. A ladder fell off the truck ahead of him and he swerved and lost control.

tibbitts
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by tibbitts » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:42 pm

alfaspider wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:30 pm
randomguy wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:35 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:54 pm


The time when the limit is exceeded is generally right before impact- not that they were generally driving at the limit of the car. Following too close is often the result of not understanding how little room for error they are leaving. Losing control is often the result of sudden evasive maneuvers undertaken by people who don’t know what their car can and cannot accomplish.

I agree that performance driving experience won’t make someone pay attention.
If you are trying to be a safer driver, so you work on what to do when you screw up or should you focus on learning how not to screw up. A good driver basically never does evasive maneuvers so it doesn't matter how good you are at them. If you are counting on car control to avoid impact, you are doomed.

Personally I think tailgaters know they can't stop. They don't care.
A good driver will rarely need evasive maneuvers, but sometimes things can happen even to the most defensive of drivers. Car control is a last line of defense, but is a line of defense nonetheless.

I likely had my life saved by a driver who was able to execute a good evasive maneuver. We were traveling in rural Wyoming on a highway that had been narrowed to two lanes (one each direction) with traffic cones on either side due to bridge work, where the remaining bridge was only two lanes. A car (likely drunk) swerved into our lanes just before the bridge. The driver expertly managed to swerve through the cones and back before the bridge without losing control. A less skilled driver would have likely lost control and gone of the bridge or had a head-on collision.

By contrast, a family member of mine was in a serious accident because he lost control in an evasive maneuver. A ladder fell off the truck ahead of him and he swerved and lost control.
You'll never know how much of your experience was skill vs. luck. The fact that someone is a well-trained driver and got a good outcome doesn't establish causality.

stoptothink
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by stoptothink » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:47 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:42 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:30 pm
randomguy wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:35 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:54 pm


The time when the limit is exceeded is generally right before impact- not that they were generally driving at the limit of the car. Following too close is often the result of not understanding how little room for error they are leaving. Losing control is often the result of sudden evasive maneuvers undertaken by people who don’t know what their car can and cannot accomplish.

I agree that performance driving experience won’t make someone pay attention.
If you are trying to be a safer driver, so you work on what to do when you screw up or should you focus on learning how not to screw up. A good driver basically never does evasive maneuvers so it doesn't matter how good you are at them. If you are counting on car control to avoid impact, you are doomed.

Personally I think tailgaters know they can't stop. They don't care.
A good driver will rarely need evasive maneuvers, but sometimes things can happen even to the most defensive of drivers. Car control is a last line of defense, but is a line of defense nonetheless.

I likely had my life saved by a driver who was able to execute a good evasive maneuver. We were traveling in rural Wyoming on a highway that had been narrowed to two lanes (one each direction) with traffic cones on either side due to bridge work, where the remaining bridge was only two lanes. A car (likely drunk) swerved into our lanes just before the bridge. The driver expertly managed to swerve through the cones and back before the bridge without losing control. A less skilled driver would have likely lost control and gone of the bridge or had a head-on collision.

By contrast, a family member of mine was in a serious accident because he lost control in an evasive maneuver. A ladder fell off the truck ahead of him and he swerved and lost control.
You'll never know how much of your experience was skill vs. luck. The fact that someone is a well-trained driver and got a good outcome doesn't establish causality.
Being a skilled driver certainly decreases the risk, not sure how you can even debate that.

In this situation, I just don't get in the car with them driving. I have 2 sisters, a SIL, and a good friend who I will never again allow to drive me. I'd love for them to become better drivers, but I'm not getting involved.

randomguy
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by randomguy » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:25 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:47 pm


Being a skilled driver certainly decreases the risk, not sure how you can even debate that.

In this situation, I just don't get in the car with them driving. I have 2 sisters, a SIL, and a good friend who I will never again allow to drive me. I'd love for them to become better drivers, but I'm not getting involved.

Sure but the decrease is about 0. The times is will pop up is like 1 time in your driving lifespan AND even an average driver will be able to execute those moves some of the time and the rest of the time they will really mitigate the accident. Compare that to how often people screw up by following too closely, not checking blind spots, weaving in traffic, speeding, and the rest of the common accident causes and think about where you should spend your time. And just wait until she learns her car can take corners marked at 35mphs at 65 mph instead of 45 cause she took a car control class:)

If she really wants to be a better driver (and not just humoring a relative), you need to come up with the concrete things she is doing wrong (driving too fast, weaving, can't park, just doesn't pay attention, and so on) and figure out how to correct them. But you need that desire.

stoptothink
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by stoptothink » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:34 am

randomguy wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:25 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:47 pm


Being a skilled driver certainly decreases the risk, not sure how you can even debate that.

In this situation, I just don't get in the car with them driving. I have 2 sisters, a SIL, and a good friend who I will never again allow to drive me. I'd love for them to become better drivers, but I'm not getting involved.

Sure but the decrease is about 0. The times is will pop up is like 1 time in your driving lifespan AND even an average driver will be able to execute those moves some of the time and the rest of the time they will really mitigate the accident. Compare that to how often people screw up by following too closely, not checking blind spots, weaving in traffic, speeding, and the rest of the common accident causes and think about where you should spend your time. And just wait until she learns her car can take corners marked at 35mphs at 65 mph instead of 45 cause she took a car control class:)

If she really wants to be a better driver (and not just humoring a relative), you need to come up with the concrete things she is doing wrong (driving too fast, weaving, can't park, just doesn't pay attention, and so on) and figure out how to correct them. But you need that desire.
Huh? How are "not following too closely, not checking blind spots, weaving in traffic, speeding..." not part of being a skilled driver? FWIW, I am not advocating for getting the niece to do autocross. As far as I am concerned this is really easy: don't get in the car with niece. Some people are just really bad drivers.

tea_pirate
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by tea_pirate » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:18 am

stoptothink wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:34 am
Huh? How are "not following too closely, not checking blind spots, weaving in traffic, speeding..." not part of being a skilled driver? FWIW, I am not advocating for getting the niece to do autocross. As far as I am concerned this is really easy: don't get in the car with niece. Some people are just really bad drivers.
I agree. Quite simply, most people are just bad drivers. It's a spectrum of people who have zero situational awareness on one end, to the "me first" selfish people in the middle, and on the other end you have people who are losers in all aspects of life who have to win out on the road since it's the only place they'll ever get that satisfaction. The latter is most commonly found driving a BMW 328i.

I won't drive with most of my family members. My SO's dad is an extreme tailgater (3 feet off the bumper of the car in front of him at all times, even when going 75 MPH). My sister constantly alternates between hitting the gas and the brake on the highway and has the attitude that others will just get out of the way when she puts her turn signal on.

fyre4ce
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by fyre4ce » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:39 am

livesoft wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:07 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:37 am
Have her look into local autocrosses.
Great advice which I take to mean: Have her go out and kill herself driving. Problem solved.

You have reported that at least one of your children totaled a car. Was that a problem? How was it solved?
This comment seems ridiculous to me. I was going to suggest some sort of high-performance driving training, and autocross is a low-cost and low-risk entry point. Depending on your budget it can be done in the family sedan, or with some kind of low-cost sports car like a Miata. What makes you think autocross will make her kill herself? Speeds are low, the course is just cones, and cars are spaced far enough apart that car-car collisions are rare (admittedly I don't know the statistics). If the concern is that it'll spark an appetite for reckless driving on the street, I suppose that's a risk, but in my experience, it actually reduces the desire to drive recklessly, because driving on a closed course is way more fun than can be had on public roads.

dbr
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by dbr » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:45 am

From reading this thread I get the idea the heart of the problem here is an inattentive driver that has not developed good basic driving habits. Some people are just not "into" operating a vehicle and don't have their mind on what they are doing and are not interested in changing. I think high level driving skills is a red herring. It would seem spending more time at a driving school would be helpful.

If I were personally afraid of riding in the car with someone I would insist on driving myself or not going at all. In my world the scariest drivers I have to ride with sometimes are the ones that think a lot of their driving skills and habitually drive too fast and attempt risky maneuvers. I have also ridden with drivers that are rude to other drivers, and that is the worst of all.

livesoft
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by livesoft » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:05 pm

It is not clear to me how the niece drives. My life would flash before my eyes if I was in a car with a slow inattentive driver that braked before merging on the freeway, stopped at green lights, made unneeded changes in speed and braking, didn't use turn signals, moved into the blind spots of other cars, missed turns, so braked just after missing a turn, waited when she had the right-of-way, didn't yield when she didn't have the right-of-way, and a host of other non-high-speed related habits. You know: Basically drove so that no other drivers/cars had any clue what the niece was going to do next.

But she could also do similar things at higher speeds.
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junior
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by junior » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:51 pm

Why not just suggest she take a driving 101 lesson for review? The sort for peole who do not know how to drive where you drive with an instructor present. I imagine it can't hurt at any rate.

If she's driving as well as her peer group it might be more in OP's head.

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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by Fallible » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:30 pm

bestplans wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:21 pm
Went out driving with my 25 year old niece the other day. She drove and I felt my life pass in front of me. She admits to probably needing some type of defensive driving course or professional refreshing on her driving technique, although she has been driving for 7 years with one minor accident. I would characterize it as a necessity (I'm no pro, but I found her carefree approach to making turns, etc. quite alarming). Parents are supporting of footing the cost if needed, so all parties are on board. ...
The advice you’re receiving here is good in general, but specifically, what you mean by a “carefree approach” to making turns, etc. Do you think she’s driving too fast, too slow, or using the wrong lanes, or running stoplights, failing to yield, allowing distractions, etc.? What does she mean by her “driving technique”? Does she often have near accidents or fail to anticipate them (defensive), or react too slowly when she does anticipate them? How does her driving differ from other drivers you’ve ridden with?

I’m all for driver education. We all need it, if only to show how overconfident we can be about our driving skills.
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bestplans
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by bestplans » Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:11 am

OP here. Just thought I'd provide an update.

She was a willing participant (which is often half the battle), so she took 3 refresher sessions with the driving school that originally helped her prepare for her initial road test. The positive difference seems uncanny in terms of her focus and fundamentals (hand positioning, order of observation - checking mirrors, parking technique, etc.). Nothing really "new" that I can see with regard to what should be taught and practiced; just a function of being a more mature and motivated "student." I do think it will have lasting impact as well. It reinforces my thoughts that "re-licensing" at certain age brackets (perhaps 25 and 75?) might be ideal (unless the driver-less car era takes off earlier than expected).

Thank you all again for the helpful comments.

dbr
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by dbr » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:42 am

bestplans wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:11 am
OP here. Just thought I'd provide an update.

She was a willing participant (which is often half the battle), so she took 3 refresher sessions with the driving school that originally helped her prepare for her initial road test. The positive difference seems uncanny in terms of her focus and fundamentals (hand positioning, order of observation - checking mirrors, parking technique, etc.). Nothing really "new" that I can see with regard to what should be taught and practiced; just a function of being a more mature and motivated "student." I do think it will have lasting impact as well. It reinforces my thoughts that "re-licensing" at certain age brackets (perhaps 25 and 75?) might be ideal (unless the driver-less car era takes off earlier than expected).

Thank you all again for the helpful comments.
I know at least a couple of young (mid-twenties) people who refuse to own cars and drive because they are afraid it is too hard for them, or too scary. Maybe a good age to start the process is 25 or so. Also the idea of retraining at 75 (or maybe 65) is not a bad idea. We took a refresher driver safety course that was excellent, especially on issues of hazardous conditions, vision and visibility, and effects of drowsiness and other impairments. I was going to suggest that a refresher for elderly can also be good training for a beginner.

But I am glad this is working out.

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five2one
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by five2one » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:07 am

tibbitts wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:27 am
bestplans wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:23 pm
90degreeturns wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:58 pm
Sounds crazy but there are tons of “racing” classes and emergency vehicle operations classes throughout the US. I know many people who have started their children on go kart classes prior to driving at 16 then sent them to the EVOC classes and racing classes. She is too old for the go kart classes but these other classes go over the extreme basics all the way up to skidding out and having to 360 out of a skid pan. Everyone I know that their children have taken these courses have been extremely safe and skilled drivers.
Very interesting. I'll look to see if there is anything quite like that in our area.
I wonder if there are statistics (vs. anecdotal evidence) as to whether these classes do in fact create extremely safe drivers.
I don't have stats but I am career military and will tell you I see a huge difference between Soldiers who have taken professional driving courses vs relying upon time to teach them.

Personally, I have a background in off-road driving multiple civilian and military vehicles to include professional training along with handling emergency vehicles in "pursuit" type situations.

While handling vehicles at speed is nice what you are really doing is educating the driver to understand the dynamics of vehicles balanced with their own awareness in a dynamic environment.

The wrong course will do damage by giving false confidence.

deikel
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Re: How to help niece improve her driving

Post by deikel » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:41 pm

I have done a two day professional driver course and I don't think it has improved my driving in that sense.

It was a ton of fun and it was technically interesting, because you intentionally brought the car over its safety limit to see where the limit actually is (its actually way beyond where you think it is, but then it ends real quick). Still, I made a mistake years later when breaking on wet surface and crashed my car in a pole - physics took over and I would not take my foot of the break as I should have and had plenty of time to do. Rationally understanding it is only half the battle.

I think in OPs case, driving with a professional instructor from a reputable driving school to constantly correct and encourage safe driving is the way to go - it might also reveal that OP has higher expectations then the professional ?

The driving can not be that bad if she survived 7 years with no ticket or accident....well I guess that depends on the (metro) area - she ain't driving in Boston or NY I guess
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