Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

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RobLyons
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Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by RobLyons » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:14 am

I'm posting this here because there are many highly intelligent, well informed people on this board. I assume most here are more intelligent than myself and when I posted on lawn care forums I received a lot of (expected) hate.

How safe are lawn care chemicals? Specifically glyphosate.

I just watched some documentaries questioning the safety and how much money plays a roll in the studies done on these chemicals. I'm concerned it's now found in our food, mothers breast milk, and in terms of lawn care, the safety of my family, including dog, and the run off into waterways. Further investigation shows studies mainly indicating glyphosate is safe if used as directed with PPE. But a useful response to my post on a lawn care group from someone in the Ag industry indicated :!: lawn chemicals are something like 10x MORE concentrated than those used in agricultural industry :!:

Personally, I'm a homeowner for 7 years and we had two healthy offspring before moving in. My parents never sprayed chemicals nor our landlord. Moving here I did a major lawn renovation and hired a lawn care company. I was skeptical when they would spray and put out signs instructing pets and humans saying to stay off the grass for extended periods of time. I understand the idea is that glyphosate is safe if used within recommended doses and "completely" safe once it dries.
Since then I've used chemicals sparingly.

Then we had 2 miscarriages. Now of course my anecdotal evidence is very weak but still concerning.


So is there anyone here that could shed some light on the topic I would be very appreciative. :thumbsup :D
"Great parenting sets the foundation for a better world"

Pu239
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by Pu239 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:35 am

Do you know for certain that glyphosate is being used on your yard? You should be able to find out from your lawn care company. Obtain of list of chemicals being used then repost. Glyphosate is used to kill just about anything green and is not, to my knowledge, normally used routinely on yards. Weed-specific herbicides (other than glyphosate) and nutrients are common applications.

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RobLyons
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by RobLyons » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:51 am

Pu239 wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:35 am
Do you know for certain that glyphosate is being used on your yard? You should be able to find out from your lawn care company. Obtain of list of chemicals being used then repost. Glyphosate is used to kill just about anything green and is not, to my knowledge, normally used routinely on yards. Weed-specific herbicides (other than glyphosate) and nutrients are common applications.

I specifically have used Round Up in the past. I have also used a product with 2-4 D dicambra (sp?) in it.

I called the lawn care company which could not provide a list of chemicals because each region has a different set of chemicals they use.

From their site, their product statement indicates:

Product Use Statement

Families consider their lawn an extension of their home for personal activities and enjoy many benefits from a well-cared lawn. Promoting healthy growth and minimizing damage caused by pests and weeds often requires judicious use of fertilizers and EPA-registered products applied by trained, licensed specialists. TruGreen does not purchase or plan on using seed or any grass that is classified as a Genetically Modified Organism (GMO).

Each year our scientists evaluate products using a "weight of the evidence analysis" to consider risks to our employees, children and pets, and the environment. We consider the following:

Registration
Each product that we use on lawns must be registered with the EPA for use of lawn and landscapes before we evaluate it for TruGreen services.
Allergies
We do not approve products that are known skin sensitizers or that may produce allergic reactions.
Carcinogens
We will not approve products containing known or probable human carcinogens as defined by the U.S. EPA, the National Toxicology Program, or the International Agency for Research in Cancer.
Groundwater
We do not approve products known or thought likely to leach to groundwater when applied to lawns.
The products we approve for company use contain the same ingredients found in lawn care products that tens of millions of homeowners buy annually at lawn and garden outlets. We ensure these products are applied safely according to federal, state and local regulations. The specific products applied to your landscape are detailed on your invoice with each treatment. Additional health and safety information can be found at the National Pesticide Information Center, a cooperative program of the U.S. EPA and Oregon State University.


Read more at https://www.trugreen.com/about/product- ... vFIWu67.99
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CCD
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by CCD » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:20 am

I have ties to the industry. When you follow the right application practices including Protection Equipment and Stay-Out Times you should be safe. There is a lot of NON-science based fear caused by interested parties regarding glyphosate and other products right now in the market. If you want to learn more and are science inclined, I recommend one source: https://www.cropscience-transparency.bayer.com/

As a side comment, is funny that the company mentions that they do not use GMOs, since there aren't any available in the market. Another marketing ploy like most of Non- GMO label products for which a GMO alternative doesn't exists! which is 99% of food products out there.

Regards,
CCD

Pu239
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by Pu239 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:49 am

So, "Trust Us" is their policy? If the chemicals are region-specific, I'd think your local applicator would know, as they are responsible for health and safety protection of their employees and are required to maintain usage records. A complete list of chemicals might be unnecessary but I'd want to know about the ones causing them to post warning signs. At a minimum, they should be willing to tell you if glyphosate is one of the chemicals.

I tend to agree with CCD's assessment but favor herbicide use sparingly and only when necessary for specific problems. Periodic liquid fertilizer applications will temporarily feed the plants but do nothing for the long-term health of the soil. It's more expensive and labor intensive but building soil fertility over time through the use of compost and organic fertilizers (good old low salt manure!) combined with spot treating of weeds (eg. Weed-Be-Gone) will make for a healthier yard.

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RobLyons
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by RobLyons » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:10 pm

Pu239 wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:49 am
So, "Trust Us" is their policy? If the chemicals are region-specific, I'd think your local applicator would know, as they are responsible for health and safety protection of their employees and are required to maintain usage records.

For the first treatment at least, yes. They provide a detailed list AFTER the application, I said I wasn't willing to go ahead unless I know before.
At $61 per application, I'll do it myself.
"Great parenting sets the foundation for a better world"

Topic Author
RobLyons
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by RobLyons » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:13 pm

CCD wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:20 am
I have ties to the industry. When you follow the right application practices including Protection Equipment and Stay-Out Times you should be safe. There is a lot of NON-science based fear caused by interested parties regarding glyphosate and other products right now in the market. If you want to learn more and are science inclined, I recommend one source: https://www.cropscience-transparency.bayer.com/

As a side comment, is funny that the company mentions that they do not use GMOs, since there aren't any available in the market. Another marketing ploy like most of Non- GMO label products for which a GMO alternative doesn't exists! which is 99% of food products out there.

Regards,
CCD

Excellent info. Bookmarking that site now.

Just the funny GMO thing is enough for me to avoid this company and going forward I'm going to continue the practice of using seed, organic fertilizer, and very minimal chemicals. Thanks
"Great parenting sets the foundation for a better world"

miamivice
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by miamivice » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:16 pm

Roundup (glysophate) is a broad spectrum plant killer. It is not normally used for lawn care because it kills the lawn along with the weed.

livesoft
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by livesoft » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:32 pm

Years ago I did contract research on herbicides and insecticides and published a few basic science research papers.

I use lawn chemicals sparingly and always wear gloves and long-pants.

I am not worried at all about glyphosate nor dicamba when it comes to the health of myself, my family and my pets. I think one is exposed to many more deleterious things in daily life such as sunlight and air pollution. But I am not spraying these things around willy-nilly either.

BTW, both glyphosate and dicamba and other chemicals have been used in retail (home) treatments for quite a long time. I was surprised that dicamba was not used on a big scale in agriculture or at least not announced as such until more recently since it is so prevalent in home lawncare products and has been for some time.

I am sorry to read about the miscarriages, but they are not uncommon unfortunately. They have happened before these chemicals were invented and will continue to happen even in the most pristine, natural, hygienic, ... families. Families don't advertise miscarriages including ours. If you ask, then you may be surprised about what your mother and aunts tell you on both sides of the family.
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edge
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by edge » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:07 pm

It’s highly unlikely your lawn care company is spraying round up. If they were, your entire lawn would be dead.

CCD
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by CCD » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:13 pm

RobLyons wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:14 am

I just watched some documentaries questioning the safety and how much money plays a roll in the studies done on these chemicals. I'm concerned it's now found in our food, mothers breast milk, and in terms of lawn care, the safety of my family, including dog, and the run off into waterways. Further investigation shows studies mainly indicating glyphosate is safe if used as directed with PPE. But a useful response to my post on a lawn care group from someone in the Ag industry indicated :!: lawn chemicals are something like 10x MORE concentrated than those used in agricultural industry :!:
Adding on... Lawn and Garden products are actually very diluted, is great for business (selling you more water), and also makes it safer for people, animals and the environment if used following directions. Also, most of them wash off faster than products intended for farm production.

As mentioned above, most products containing glyphosate are designed for spot treatment only since they will affect most plant species. So other products like grass or broad leaf herbicides will actually be applied more broadly on certain areas of your lawn.

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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by jebmke » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:13 pm

livesoft wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:32 pm
I use lawn chemicals sparingly and always wear gloves and long-pants.
Same - and eye protection.

I mainly use glyphosphate to spot treat a few invasives like poison ivy (if it has gotten beyond simple pull-up), wild grape, English Ivy etc.
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by crystalbank » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:27 pm

At the risk of sounding like a pseudo-science peddler, let me state my opinion. My old lawn care company used Glysophate (Round Up). After I found out I requested them not to use it which they respectfully obliged. They used a weed whacker and spent 10 more minutes every week on my lawn. My logic is that there are too many people I respect and have a lot more wisdom and knowledge are very against these specific chemicals (like NN Taleb for example). I would rather not take my chances. Even if history proves them all wrong there won't be any difference to me because we're taking about lawn care!

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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by livesoft » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:34 pm

I have written this before, but it deserves another mention in this thread.

My opinion is that home insecticides, pesticides, and herbicides should be purchased in the smallest quantities possible that can be used up in one month or less. I don't think homeowners need to store these things for more than that in their garages or under the sink in the home. I suppose some people think they need to buy the largest container or volume in order to save money. You aren't saving much money and just creating hazardous waste instead.

These chemicals degrade over time especially in the heat. You won't know what chemical degradation products along with the original compound(s) you have in the containers after awhile. You don't store your medicines in a hot garage and you don't buy 20,000 ibuprofen pills at a time either.

I have also read on Bogleheads.org people asking "How do I kill weeds?" or "How do I use this?" I am always dismayed because those questions suggest they did not read the instructions of what they bought. One should read the instructions before purchase and follow them if they make the purchase.
Last edited by livesoft on Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Glockenspiel
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by Glockenspiel » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:34 pm

I almost never have a need for lawn chemicals, other than occasional (1 or 2 times/year) fertilizer. If you keep your grass on the longer side (~3 inches), mow off no more than 1/3 of the blade at a time, and use a weed popper tool for any random weeds that spring up, you really don't need to spray anything. I think my lawn looks pretty good, with few chemicals. Very occasionally, I'll spot spray 2-4-D on any stubborn types of weeds where the roots don't easily come out, but you really should have very little need for Round-Up. Round-Up kills everything, not just weeds. It will kill all of your grass as well.

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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by CCD » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:38 pm

crystalbank wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:27 pm
At the risk of sounding like a pseudo-science peddler, let me state my opinion. My old lawn care company used Glysophate (Round Up). After I found out I requested them not to use it which they respectfully obliged. They used a weed whacker and spent 10 more minutes every week on my lawn. My logic is that there are too many people I respect and have a lot more wisdom and knowledge are very against these specific chemicals (like NN Taleb for example). I would rather not take my chances. Even if history proves them all wrong there won't be any difference to me because we're taking about lawn care!
Probably NN Taleb is not the right person to look up for agri chemical advise.

Overall, unless one is talking about half an acre plus of lawn hand weeding, organic fertilizers, etc should suffice. We over use all these products in general mainly fertilizers that have a whole set of issues.

suemarkp
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by suemarkp » Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:04 pm

I have a 4 acre yard. I buy broadleaf weedkiller in a concentrated gallon jug that I have to sign for. I use a lawn tractor, GPS (speedometer), and calibrated tank sprayer to make sure I am applying the mix at the proper gallons per acre limit.

To me, the more concentrated versions of the chemicals are more dangerous than the diluted mix. So I wear nitrile gloves and spray down the area where I mix and dilute the chemical. The residential concentrates are half or less concentrated than the stuff I buy, so those should be a bit less hazardous.

I rarely use roundup. If I was a farmer wanting to kill everything in a field before planting, or had weed infested dirt I wanted to replace with a lawn then I'd use it. I do use it on driveways and sidewalks where weeds and grass grows along with different stuff that works longer.

The instructions for all of these seem to indicate little hazard after it dries. They also seem to cause issues with aquatic life so don't spray into a stream. I have had no issues, but proving something is safe is difficult. Many people look to blame something when someone gets lymphoma or other diseases. You can find correlation (they all used roundup, they all worked with radars, they all ate carrots). But causation is difficult to prove especially when the dosage of the culprit is much lower than used in the test cases for causing sickness.
Mark | Kent, WA

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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by jpelder » Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:08 pm

On principle, I try not to use too many treatments on my lawn at all (I'm not chemophobic, I just hate lawns!).

Glyphosate is pretty safe for animals of all sorts. It targets an enzyme in plants that isn't found in humans. Theoretically, you could drink the stuff (I will refrain from trying it, though). I use it to zap weeds growing out of sidewalk cracks. Do wear PPE when applying.

With TruGreen and similar companies, I would be more concerned about pesticides and fertilizers. Chances are, your lawn doesn't need much, if any, fertilizer to stay healthy, as long as you keep it mowed long and it gets enough water (Like Glockenspiel said). Most people (and lawn-care companies) over-fertilize, and the excess fertilizer runs into local waterways via storm drains. This leads to eutrophication, which has been a major problem in the Gulf of Mexico, Lake Erie, and some other waterways that drain a lot of agricultural land. If you do fertilize, consider top-dressing with compost instead of using concentrated "granule" fertilizers. And pesticides are extraordinarily toxic to humans, pets, pollinators, and other visiting animals. I'll spot-treat fire ant mounds and fruit trees with some limited pesticides, but I wouldn't recommend blasting the whole yard with them.

mariezzz
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by mariezzz » Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:16 pm

Get online and read the reliable literature. Yes, you'll have to filter out a lot of noise.

Be aware that when exposure to something causes damage that takes decades to occur, it's very difficult to come up with evidence showing that that 'something' causes health issues. The effect can interact with factors specific to the individual, making the task even more difficult. Add in the power of the chemical lobby (do some research there, and you'll be appalled at this - it's on part with what the cigarette companies did to hide the harms caused by smoking).

Add in the fact that in the US, the vast majority of synthetic chemicals on the market have never been assessed for safety - in the US, safety is assume until proven otherwise, and manufacturers are not required to do any testing to demonstrate safety.

Would I use glyphosphate? Absolutely not. The evidence that it has the potential to harm one's health is strong enough for me. I also just don't see much of a benefit to using any chemical on the lawn, given the potential harm to me, the environment, and other animals in the area.

You'll have to decide what kind of risk you want to exposure your family, grandkids (current or future), neighborhood kids (the effect of chemicals doesn't respect property boundaries), and the environment, to.

Doesn't seem like a smart move financially, either.

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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by JAZZISCOOL » Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:35 pm

I'm not an expert like others who posted. However, I prefer to use other methods than chemicals e.g. pulling weeds by hand, EcoSmart (non-toxic, safe for pets & kids), vinegar/water mixture. I have also tried boiling water for small areas of crabgrass (worked). I don't like the idea of toxic chemicals seeping into the ground water either. My dog eats a lot of grass so I find it too risky to use some of these chemicals in light of the recent lawsuits and alleged dangers. Greater peace of mind.

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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by gd » Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:52 pm

Seeing a reference to a Bayer web site for info on pesticide safety reminds me of when I used to read Morgan Stanley research reports advising me to buy a company's stock because the company's management said everything was great.

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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by Cyclesafe » Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:04 pm

"Roundup" used to be just glyphosate of various concentrations. Now they have extended the homeowner-oriented brand to encompass insecticides, lawn weed products, and who knows what else. Confusion is not unexpected. If you spray glyphosate on lawns you get little brown craters with no vegetation. Ask me how I know....

Homeowners can use glyphosate to control weeds away from desirable plants or to clear undesirable vegetation prior to seeding as there is no soil residual. As a side note, scientists in the early 90's isolated the gene from the biodegrading soil bacteria that inactivates the glyphosate molecule and spliced it into "Roundup Ready" crops making them impervious to Roundup. This means that rather than using more expensive selective and maybe more toxic herbicides, farmers "go over the top" and spray their entire crop, killing surrounding weeds and leaving the crop free to properly mature.

Another fun fact is that when it was introduced in the 70's glyphosate mostly replaced paraquat which was so extremely toxic that it was often used worldwide by rural people to commit suicide. When they tried Roundup it only made them sick, so I guess they moved on some other means. Glyphosate was hailed as the herbicide from God and not only by its inventor.

As with any pesticide, it is necessary to read the entire label and follow its instructions carefully. Goggles (face shield better), long pants (plastic pants better), long sleeves, and long plastic/rubber gloves must always be used, regardless of how safe or dangerous the product is alleged to be. The label will tell you how long to stay out of a sprayed area. The label is the result of an expensive and lengthy scientific process and the information it provides is not just "fine print", "boiler plate", or to satisfy the lawyers.

I would not hesitate to properly use any pesticide that I can legally currently buy. The truly bad stuff is long gone.
Last edited by Cyclesafe on Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jebmke
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by jebmke » Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:05 pm

suemarkp wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:04 pm
They also seem to cause issues with aquatic life so don't spray into a stream.
My understanding is that the problem isn't the glyphosphate in Roundup but the other ingredients. Rodeo is a glyphosphate based product that can be used with the proper surfactant on water. It is used around here to control phragmite.

Some things can be controlled mechanically or with mild agents but some stuff is quite difficult to control when it gets going. Wild grape, mile-a-minute and a few other things will come pretty close to grabbing you by the leg if you stand still long enough. Left alone, wild grape can bring down an oak tree in my area. Phrag is particularly invasive and spreads underground so cutting and pulling isn't an option.
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by NotWhoYouThink » Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:12 pm

Round-up/glyphosate works well for honeysuckle bush and the vines around here, so I use that. The recent court cases seem to be based on some pretty thin science, a jury isn't a peer review panel. Causation is hard to prove in any case.

But if I'm not killing all plant life I'm not sure what to use. There doesn't seem to be much that is effective against crabgrass, no matter what the label on the container says. Even the pre-emergent wasn't effective the last couple of years. So might as well save money, mow often, and not worry about what's growing.

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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by crystalbank » Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:22 pm

CCD wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:38 pm
crystalbank wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:27 pm
At the risk of sounding like a pseudo-science peddler, let me state my opinion. My old lawn care company used Glysophate (Round Up). After I found out I requested them not to use it which they respectfully obliged. They used a weed whacker and spent 10 more minutes every week on my lawn. My logic is that there are too many people I respect and have a lot more wisdom and knowledge are very against these specific chemicals (like NN Taleb for example). I would rather not take my chances. Even if history proves them all wrong there won't be any difference to me because we're taking about lawn care!
Probably NN Taleb is not the right person to look up for agri chemical advise.

Overall, unless one is talking about half an acre plus of lawn hand weeding, organic fertilizers, etc should suffice. We over use all these products in general mainly fertilizers that have a whole set of issues.
There are numerous other detractors, not just Taleb. Anyways, I tend to think of it similar to Pascal's wager.

livesoft
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by livesoft » Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:25 pm

If the weed wacker is gas-powered, then one should be concerned with breathing its exhaust fumes and also the fumes when filling it with fuel.
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:36 pm

In the past, i have used Roundup to spot treat areas like my sidewalk or the edges of my driveway where weeds would crop up in the cracks between Belgian block and the asphalt. I would not broadcast spray Roundup as that would eliminate all greenery including my lawn. I’ve used Scott’s with Halts to minimize crabgrass in early spring and Roundup for lawns which does not use glyphosate at all. Other chemicals I’ve used are concentrated which I dilute with water and make use of a pump sprayer to spot treat are 2,4 D (Spectracide) and trypclor for more woody type weeds including poison ivy, but sparingly. When applying I wear nitrile gloves, long pants and long sleeve shirts. And no spraying on breezy or windy conditions as chemicals will go everywhere except where you want it to.

If you want to kill weeds and grass there are other alternatives that may be more environmentally safe - Burn off - uses citric acid and Clove oil. Natria I’ve used (ammoniated salt of fatty acids plus a root control regulator) - will dry out the weed and shut down the root, safe to reseed after 5 days. I haven’t tried the vinegar solution in more concentrated forms, have not had any luck with using supermarket vinegar. I’ve tried the hand pulling method too but only works for small patches, not effective for widespread infestation.

The problem is as noted in other posts, you can choose to put nothing down on your lawn but you are surrounded by your neighbors who use it and some quite frequently. If your neighbors don’t use it, then fighting weeds becomes a summer wide battle no matter how well you fertilize or water your lawn.
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likegarden
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by likegarden » Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:38 pm

A lot of times it is not needed to treat the whole lawn anyway. Once you have treated a whole lawn, next year only spots need to be sprayed per my experience. Some weeds only appear in spots, such as on my Northeast lawn where crap grass only shows up close to the road with possibly cars and snow plows distributing crab grass seeds from neighbors down the street.

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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by Trader Joe » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:00 pm

RobLyons wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:14 am
I'm posting this here because there are many highly intelligent, well informed people on this board. I assume most here are more intelligent than myself and when I posted on lawn care forums I received a lot of (expected) hate.

How safe are lawn care chemicals? Specifically glyphosate.

I just watched some documentaries questioning the safety and how much money plays a roll in the studies done on these chemicals. I'm concerned it's now found in our food, mothers breast milk, and in terms of lawn care, the safety of my family, including dog, and the run off into waterways. Further investigation shows studies mainly indicating glyphosate is safe if used as directed with PPE. But a useful response to my post on a lawn care group from someone in the Ag industry indicated :!: lawn chemicals are something like 10x MORE concentrated than those used in agricultural industry :!:

Personally, I'm a homeowner for 7 years and we had two healthy offspring before moving in. My parents never sprayed chemicals nor our landlord. Moving here I did a major lawn renovation and hired a lawn care company. I was skeptical when they would spray and put out signs instructing pets and humans saying to stay off the grass for extended periods of time. I understand the idea is that glyphosate is safe if used within recommended doses and "completely" safe once it dries.
Since then I've used chemicals sparingly.

Then we had 2 miscarriages. Now of course my anecdotal evidence is very weak but still concerning.


So is there anyone here that could shed some light on the topic I would be very appreciative. :thumbsup :D
We have always avoided lawn chemicals and we have never had any issues.

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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by suemarkp » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:25 pm

jebmke wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:05 pm
My understanding is that the problem isn't the glyphosphate in Roundup but the other ingredients. Rodeo is a glyphosphate based product that can be used with the proper surfactant on water. It is used around here to control phragmite.
I should have been more clear. That warning is only on the weed killers with 2,4D.
Mark | Kent, WA

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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by JBTX » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:27 pm

NotWhoYouThink wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:12 pm
Round-up/glyphosate works well for honeysuckle bush and the vines around here, so I use that. The recent court cases seem to be based on some pretty thin science, a jury isn't a peer review panel. Causation is hard to prove in any case.

But if I'm not killing all plant life I'm not sure what to use. There doesn't seem to be much that is effective against crabgrass, no matter what the label on the container says. Even the pre-emergent wasn't effective the last couple of years. So might as well save money, mow often, and not worry about what's growing.
I find the anti crab grass products reasonably effective. Use crab grass preemergent and use multi broadleaf weed and crab grass post emergent with hose end sprayer. I'll still have to spot treat some areas. I'll whip out the MSMA (which I'm not even sure you can buy anymore for home use) for the problem areas.

It may be that you don't have crab grass but have dallis grass which is more difficult to kill.

My neighbor across the street does zero weed control which has resulted in me having to be more aggressive in keeping them out of my lawn.

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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by jebmke » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:31 pm

The crabgrass pre-E works pretty well for us. Will get an odd sprouting on an edge now and then. Crabgrass likes the sun so if you keep grass cut high, it will suppress any remaining seeds that aren't controlled by the pre-E. We keep our grass cut at about 4-inches so that seems to take care of most things.
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by fru-gal » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:10 pm

CCD wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:20 am
As a side comment, is funny that the company mentions that they do not use GMOs, since there aren't any available in the market. Another marketing ploy like most of Non- GMO label products for which a GMO alternative doesn't exists! which is 99% of food products out there.

Regards,
CCD
I was under the impression that soybeans and corn grown in the U.S. are almost 100% GMO. High fructose corn syrup, anyone? Of course, if you're just counting noses vs. percentages, perhaps you're right, in some sense.

If I had a concern about miscarriages, I would not be using poisons on my yard.

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William4u
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by William4u » Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:33 am

There is some evidence that a wide variety of pesticides can contribute to problems for a pregnant mother and her fetus.

For example, a University of California Berkeley study found that exposure to organophosphates during pregnancy was linked to earlier delivery, an increase in abnormal reflexes in the infants, poorer mental development at 24 months of age, and increased risk of developmental disorder.
https://cerch.berkeley.edu/research-pro ... acos-study

Another study by the Harvard School of Public Health found that children born to mothers who were exposed to different a group of pesticides, organochlorines, during pregnancy had an increased level of ADHD.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20106937

A 2011 study in Pediatrics revealed that pyrethroids, another common type of insecticide sold in stores, also pose significant risks to developing fetuses. Some of the effects of these chemicals were similar to those of lead exposure.
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/ ... 9.abstract
Common lawn care products can cause developmental problems in early pregnancy -- just days after conception, new research shows.
Exposure to newly treated lawns and golf courses -- before the recommended waiting period is over -- could harm the developing embryo, researchers say. Weed-B-Gon, Scott's 4XD, and Atrazine are just three products found to cause harm.
"Even extremely low concentrations of these pesticides -- concentrations thought to not cause any harm if the person ingests it -- could interfere with both conception and an embryo's implantation in the uterus," researcher Anne Greenlee, PhD, a research scientist with the Reproductive Toxicology Laboratory at the Marshfield Clinic Research Foundation in Wisconsin, tells WebMD.
Her study appears in the May issue of Environmental Health Perspectives.
https://www.webmd.com/baby/news/2004052 ... ng-fetus#1
The California Birth Defects Monitoring Program reports that three out of every four women are exposed to pesticides around the home. They also observed that pregnant women exposed to household gardening pesticides had a modest risk increase for oral clefts, neural tube defects, heart defects, and limb defects.
Women living within 1/4 mile of agricultural crops had the same modest risk increase for neural tube defects.
The Environmental Health Perspectives Journal (EHP) Volume 110 reports that children who are exposed to indoor pesticides are at an elevated risk of leukemia. EHP adds that the risk is increased during the first three months of pregnancy and when professional pest control services are used in the home.
https://americanpregnancy.org/pregnancy ... esticides/

More info on pregnancy and chemical risks can be found here...
https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/birthdefects/links.html
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/repro/pesticides.html

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RobLyons
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by RobLyons » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:58 am

Thanks for all the great responses. Some of you went above and beyond posting studies, to that I'm truly thankful.

I may be slightly over fearful of chemicals because we do not fully understand what causes some of these negative health issues.
As a science based everything enthusiast, I know usually the dose makes the poison.
As a lawn lover, I'm going to continue to maintain my grass as best as possible, with minimal chemicals + PPE.
"Great parenting sets the foundation for a better world"

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RobLyons
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by RobLyons » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:58 am

Thanks for all the great responses. Some of you went above and beyond posting studies, to that I'm truly thankful.

I may be slightly over fearful of chemicals because we do not fully understand what causes some of these negative health issues.
As a science based everything enthusiast, I know usually the dose makes the poison.
As a lawn lover, I'm going to continue to maintain my grass as best as possible, with minimal chemicals + PPE.
"Great parenting sets the foundation for a better world"

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GMCZ71
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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by GMCZ71 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:51 am

RobLyons wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:14 am


How safe are lawn care chemicals? Specifically glyphosate.



Personally, I'm a homeowner for 7 years and we had two healthy offspring before moving in. Moving here I did a major lawn renovation and hired a lawn care company.
Since then I've used chemicals sparingly.

Then we had 2 miscarriages. Now of course my anecdotal evidence is very weak but still concerning.


:thumbsup :D
It may be wise to look at other things for the cause because it sounds like the the use of chemicals is once a year maybe twice a year over the 7 years.

It could be something within the house or outside the house. Are you in the same city you were renting and then buying the house?
John

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Re: Lawn chemicals - any experts here?

Post by LadyGeek » Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:13 am

This thread has run its course and is locked (medical discussion on cause of miscarriage). See: Medical Issues
Questions on medical issues are beyond the scope of the forum. If you are looking for medical information online, I suggest you start with the Medical Library Association's User's Guide to Finding and Evaluating Health Information on the Web which, in addition to providing guidance on evaluating health information, includes a list of their top recommended sites.
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