RESOLVED: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Topic Author
synthfan23
Posts: 175
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:36 am

RESOLVED: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by synthfan23 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:16 am

While I support 2nd Amendment rights to a point, and am fine with (most) citizens possessing firearms, I myself don't like guns. Just not for me. However, I'd like to be able to protect my family in the rare event of a home invasion while I am present. What non-lethal alternatives to firearms do y'all suggest?

-- Read once a guy who kept a huge can of pepper spray, intended for use against Bear attacks, to use on intruders. Will pepper spray work on a crook hopped up on Meth and other substances?

-- What's the State of the Art in Tazers these days? Can I legally buy an inexpensive yet effective taser gun here in FL, or via Amazon or online, that works from a distance? I don't want to have to get close enough to a crack head to actually touch a taser to someone's body...

-- What else is out there that is available to consumers rather than LEOs exclusively?

Finally, what are some good and inexpensive Passive Security Measures I can implement to make my house less of a target. I consider ADT and others to be a huge scam...
Last edited by synthfan23 on Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jello_nailer
Posts: 104
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:20 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by jello_nailer » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:27 am

Those all could work, except against a gun. Not sure there is anything better. That said if you don't know what you're doing, afraid of it, not trained, a gun won't get you there anyway.

Maybe go the security route, high end tight security system.

Jack FFR1846
Posts: 10501
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:05 am
Location: 26 miles, 385 yards west of Copley Square

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:32 am

Paint ball gun. Won't kill but it's going to hurt like heck and a full auto barrage will absolutely drive someone out.


Or......move.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

clip651
Posts: 483
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:02 am

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by clip651 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:36 am

Passive - good outdoor lighting is reported to reduce break in risk. (Not a complete solution, but part of the picture.)

Rus In Urbe
Posts: 520
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:12 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by Rus In Urbe » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:39 am

Video surveillance and signs posted about it are, reportedly, a really good deterrent as a lot of criminals have been recently caught using video, and the word is getting out about that. We are looking into adding that to our exterior, in addition to the ADT signs.

Also, it's generally a good idea to practice "stealth wealth" as much as possible.

According to research: The one-year chances of a robbery inside your home are .004%, of them being armed is about .00168%. Lifetime chances of about 0.32%. Odds are about 1 in 6000, approximately twice as likely as getting struck by lightning in your lifetime.

If you are working through the list of statistically possible threats and have gotten down to the "home invasion" threat....I'd say you're doing pretty well. Otherwise, take precautions and don't worry too much about it.
I'd like to live as a poor man with lots of money. ~Pablo Picasso

sco
Posts: 913
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:28 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by sco » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:45 am

Non-lethal force can sometimes be a bad idea, if the person coming in intends harm. Very few items can't be lethal, in corner cases.

Kind of like a "warning shot" being illegal when threatened with harm.

User avatar
White Coat Investor
Posts: 14271
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Greatest Snow On Earth

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by White Coat Investor » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:48 am

synthfan23 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:16 am
While I support 2nd Amendment rights to a point, and am fine with (most) citizens possessing firearms, I myself don't like guns. Just not for me. However, I'd like to be able to protect my family in the rare event of a home invasion while I am present. What non-lethal alternatives to firearms do y'all suggest?

-- Read once a guy who kept a huge can of pepper spray, intended for use against Bear attacks, to use on intruders. Will pepper spray work on a crook hopped up on Meth and other substances?

-- What's the State of the Art in Tazers these days? Can I legally buy an inexpensive yet effective taser gun here in FL, or via Amazon or online, that works from a distance? I don't want to have to get close enough to a crack head to actually touch a taser to someone's body...

-- What else is out there that is available to consumers rather than LEOs exclusively?

Finally, what are some good and inexpensive Passive Security Measures I can implement to make my house less of a target. I consider ADT and others to be a huge scam...
Baseball bat?
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course

Winston19
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:42 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by Winston19 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:49 am

Since you are in Florida I think the answer is obvious - an alligator.

User avatar
Sandtrap
Posts: 8496
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:32 pm
Location: Hawaii No Ka Oi , N. Arizona

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by Sandtrap » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:51 am

Basic's first.

1. If poor neighborhood, move. If poor region, move. (big one)
*If one has to live defensively in a certain area, then there has to be some thought to why.
2. Perimeter fence. (including electric driveway fence if possible)
3. Security cameras.
4. Motion lights.
5. Upgraded locks at points of entry, windows, etc.
6. Good security "habits" integrated in one's lifestyle. (be aware).
7. Lifestyle adjustments. (big one)
8. Dog inside the perimeter fence. (not one that is dangerous, preferably loves chasing tennis balls)
9. etc.

j
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know

London
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:50 am

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by London » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:06 am

People overestimate their chances of being robbed in their home. First, you are unlikely to have a break-in. Second, criminals generally don’t want people to be home and wait for the house to appear empty.

By all means, plan if it makes you feel better. But my “plan” if this ever were to happen would be to give them whatever they want and hope they leave quickly. In real life, that the objective of the criminal.

I’m insured and I don’t care to fight for my belongings. Just because who ever breaks-in has a gun (or any weapon), doesn’t mean they want to use it. They most likely want to scare you so they don’t have to use it.

User avatar
newcollegeman
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:16 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by newcollegeman » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:11 am

Hand held boat air horn

hightower
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:28 am

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by hightower » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:12 am

synthfan23 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:16 am
While I support 2nd Amendment rights to a point, and am fine with (most) citizens possessing firearms, I myself don't like guns. Just not for me. However, I'd like to be able to protect my family in the rare event of a home invasion while I am present. What non-lethal alternatives to firearms do y'all suggest?

-- Read once a guy who kept a huge can of pepper spray, intended for use against Bear attacks, to use on intruders. Will pepper spray work on a crook hopped up on Meth and other substances?

-- What's the State of the Art in Tazers these days? Can I legally buy an inexpensive yet effective taser gun here in FL, or via Amazon or online, that works from a distance? I don't want to have to get close enough to a crack head to actually touch a taser to someone's body...

-- What else is out there that is available to consumers rather than LEOs exclusively?

Finally, what are some good and inexpensive Passive Security Measures I can implement to make my house less of a target. I consider ADT and others to be a huge scam...
Build a moat around your house, fill it with gators.

stan1
Posts: 7746
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:35 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by stan1 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:16 am

London wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:06 am
People overestimate their chances of being robbed in their home. First, you are unlikely to have a break-in. Second, criminals generally don’t want people to be home and wait for the house to appear empty.

By all means, plan if it makes you feel better. But my “plan” if this ever were to happen would be to give them whatever they want and hope they leave quickly. In real life, that the objective of the criminal.

I’m insured and I don’t care to fight for my belongings. Just because who ever breaks-in has a gun (or any weapon), doesn’t mean they want to use it. They most likely want to scare you so they don’t have to use it.
I'd agree with this. Look around your neighborhood. See what your neighbors are doing. Make your house a little less appealing so the bad guys pick someone else that's an easier mark.

Also don't keep cash, gold, etc. at your home. We used to live next to a guy whose business was running ATM machines in liquor stores in low income areas. Seemed like a nice guy but in a business like that I'm sure word gets around and not everyone you know is friendly. By no means was this the reason we moved but after we did we said to ourselves "glad nothing happened while we were there".

chevca
Posts: 2864
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:22 am

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by chevca » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:22 am

Pepper spray inside a room or hallway is just as likely to work against you as it is the bad guy. It's not a pinpoint accurate tool and it spreads. I hate the stuff though. Others aren't bothered by it as much.

I would look at tasers if I were you. That's probably you best bet for what you want. Although you may have to get close enough to press it up against them. I don't know if they sell the probe kind to the public?

As mentioned, as baseball bat is a good tool also.

Just this past week, there was a homeowner in a city near me that confronted a car prowler, actually two, in his driveway. One prowler ran away. The other came at the homeowner with a gun and pointed it at him. The homeowner shot him. I bet the homeowner was glad he had a gun and not something "non-lethal". OP, I know you said you don't like guns. But, what would you do in this situation?

tibbitts
Posts: 9375
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by tibbitts » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:31 am

You need to describe your home. I think advance notice would be important. If you have a perimeter where you can monitor any activity without false alarms that's one situation. If your perimeter is three feet from active pedestrian or vehicle traffic, that's another. And then you can buy more time by making physical entry more difficult. If someone enters your home without you preparing in any way, are you really going to have a weapon of any kind you can have ready to use within seconds 24/7?

tibbitts
Posts: 9375
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by tibbitts » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:33 am

chevca wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:22 am
Pepper spray inside a room or hallway is just as likely to work against you as it is the bad guy. It's not a pinpoint accurate tool and it spreads. I hate the stuff though. Others aren't bothered by it as much.

I would look at tasers if I were you. That's probably you best bet for what you want. Although you may have to get close enough to press it up against them. I don't know if they sell the probe kind to the public?

As mentioned, as baseball bat is a good tool also.

Just this past week, there was a homeowner in a city near me that confronted a car prowler, actually two, in his driveway. One prowler ran away. The other came at the homeowner with a gun and pointed it at him. The homeowner shot him. I bet the homeowner was glad he had a gun and not something "non-lethal". OP, I know you said you don't like guns. But, what would you do in this situation?
But a car prowler situation is not a home invasion situation - completely different.

chevca
Posts: 2864
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:22 am

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by chevca » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:37 am

You didn't need to take it so literally. :oops:

What would the OP do if confronted in their own home by someone with a gun... or, a knife?

That better?

User avatar
Doom&Gloom
Posts: 3031
Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 3:36 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by Doom&Gloom » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:47 am

What is your Plan A for action after you whomp somebody inside your home?

Can you hold him/them at bay while you phone 911 and wait for the police to arrive?

If not and intend to use a catch-and-release approach, are you prepared for an angry perpetrator's potential return to your home after you have injured him?

Mike Scott
Posts: 1342
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:45 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by Mike Scott » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:50 am

Dogs plus the usual physical preventative measures outside and door/window upgrades etc. Someone already suggested moving. Maybe get an on the gorund consult from local police or security company?

tibbitts
Posts: 9375
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by tibbitts » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:52 am

chevca wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:37 am
You didn't need to take it so literally. :oops:

What would the OP do if confronted in their own home by someone with a gun... or, a knife?

That better?
No, not better or worse, completely different. If you notice a prowler in your driveway, you have the opportunity (in terms of time - if only a minute or so) to decide how to respond, and then prepare. In fact you may be the one surprising the prowler, not the other way around, although the prowler would likely be better prepared and somewhat expecting to be interrupted while "at work." If you're in your home, maybe sleeping, and with zero warning someone enters the home ten feet away from you and points a gun at you, that couldn't be more different. My point was to make the situations more similar by giving yourself time to respond by making physical entry more different or using perimeter alarms of some sort.

bob60014
Posts: 1241
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:59 pm
Location: The Land Beyond ORD

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by bob60014 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:55 am

synthfan23 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:16 am
However, I'd like to be able to protect my family in the rare event of a home invasion while I am present.
The key here is RARE. A home invader is going to be just as surprised as you if you encounter one another and most offenders do not want any violence. A baseball bat or a kitchen knife are still effective for the majority of these confrontations.

Most homeowners are better off doing the basic security measures like keeping windows and doors secure, keep the outside of the home tidy-eliminate hiding places, installing outdoor motion detection lights, make the home look occupied at all time...etc.

Google "How can I protect my home from burglary?" for more ideas.

User avatar
Sandtrap
Posts: 8496
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:32 pm
Location: Hawaii No Ka Oi , N. Arizona

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by Sandtrap » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:01 am

These situational last line of offense/defense issues sell a lot of products and make for exciting discussion, often based on conjecture.
The reality of things is that the defensive or deterrent product does not produce the positive result in themselves.
It has been proven that the products are of limited effectiveness unless the individual is "trained", educated, and "practices these skills, often, to the point of pure reactivity.
This is why, the defensive product often get's turned against the victim.
For example: discussions are often heard of, "if this happens to me I would do this. . . I would do that", "if someone is over aggressive to me then I would do this/that", and so forth. But, put those same persons in a training program or extended self defense class, or years in Mui Thai, etc, (disciplined programs) and "reality checks" emerge.
Point is this:
Personal protection is an trained attitude and disciplined mindset (think Navy Seal). Without that training and mindset, attitude, and integration into one's lifestyle (situational awareness), it matters not what tools are at one's disposal. They are simply products. And, anything outside of the above mindset and skillset, is simply fantasy.

My o2 based on a little experience. YMMV. (insert disclaimers).
j
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know

chevca
Posts: 2864
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:22 am

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by chevca » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:04 am

tibbitts wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:52 am
chevca wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:37 am
You didn't need to take it so literally. :oops:

What would the OP do if confronted in their own home by someone with a gun... or, a knife?

That better?
No, not better or worse, completely different. If you notice a prowler in your driveway, you have the opportunity (in terms of time - if only a minute or so) to decide how to respond, and then prepare. In fact you may be the one surprising the prowler, not the other way around, although the prowler would likely be better prepared and somewhat expecting to be interrupted while "at work." If you're in your home, maybe sleeping, and with zero warning someone enters the home ten feet away from you and points a gun at you, that couldn't be more different. My point was to make the situations more similar by giving yourself time to respond by making physical entry more different or using perimeter alarms of some sort.
Your missing the point and just wanting to argue. I know they're different. It was just an example that happened recently to bring up what if the OP was looking at a gun pointed at them.

I never said anything about your point. You just jumped in and wanted to argue with me. :wink: In fact, you make good points about those things.

WhyNotKnow
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:49 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by WhyNotKnow » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:04 am

When our daughter reached her teens her mother decided she needed to carry pepper spray.
Thankfully she never was in a situation where she had to use it. However she did manage to spray herself.
Twice.
I think that trying to use something like that in an enclosed area during a high stress encounter would not be to your advantage.
David

fru-gal
Posts: 1194
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:48 pm
Location: New England

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by fru-gal » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:08 am

My home was burglarized twice when I lived in a college town, neither an expensive nor a poor area. So all the remarks about it being unlikely mean nothing.

chevca
Posts: 2864
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:22 am

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by chevca » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:12 am

Probably all folks meaning the same thing, but home invasions and burglaries are quite different things. One is barging in demanding money and stuff, and the other is sneaky not wanting to be seen or heard trying to steal stuff. Are we discussing both, or one or the other??

tibbitts
Posts: 9375
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by tibbitts » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:17 am

fru-gal wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:08 am
My home was burglarized twice when I lived in a college town, neither an expensive nor a poor area. So all the remarks about it being unlikely mean nothing.
My home has been burglarized as well, and I think there is a reasonable probability of that happening again. However I think the odds of a home invasion are dramatically less. Maybe I'm giving too much credit to criminals, but I think there is a very small percentage of them that would would seek out confrontation, as in a home invasion. Probably most of them put some effort into avoiding the possibility.

a_movable_life
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:33 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by a_movable_life » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:19 am

I did not see if anyone has said it, but I've worked with a lot of petty criminals. Most of these crimes were trying to steal stuff to buy drugs. Sometimes they would just walk into someone's house because the front door was open for ventilation, and see if a purse was on a kitchen counter or near a door. Then other times they just wandered around trying doors and windows on cars and apartments if they could get in the building and push in and see what they can grab.

1. Keep your doors locked. Use a piece of wood in the sliding glass door since that lock is usually not robust.
2. Get real locks for your ground floor windows. Use them.
3. Most of these guys would not pick a fight with a dog.
4. Many of them would not deal with alarm systems since even if they bolt, the retiree down the block sees them running away and might ID them to the cops when they come out to see the noise.
5. Most times they did not want to run into, or get into a confrontation with the homeowner because of potential ID.

Big can of bear spray might work.

The firearm route sounds great until you shoot your teen sneaking in at 2AM, or your teen's lover sneaking out.

User avatar
JoMoney
Posts: 7816
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:31 am

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by JoMoney » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:26 am

Adam Carolla's method:
A shotgun loaded with a rock-salt shell, then bird-shot, then buck-shot.
The rock-salt is highly unlikely to be lethal, especially if intentionally used as a scare tactic/warning shot with poor aim.
The bird-shot would have actual stopping power and make a nasty wound, while potentially not penetrating deep enough to damage vital organs (...maybe)...
Buck-shot as the last option if something requires you to use the first two, you might have a change of heart about not using non-lethal alternatives.

Apparently there are other options for "non-lethal" 12 gauge ammo
https://www.margosupplies.com/usa/12-gauge-non-lethal
Last edited by JoMoney on Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham

H-Town
Posts: 2126
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by H-Town » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:26 am

synthfan23 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:16 am
While I support 2nd Amendment rights to a point, and am fine with (most) citizens possessing firearms, I myself don't like guns. Just not for me. However, I'd like to be able to protect my family in the rare event of a home invasion while I am present. What non-lethal alternatives to firearms do y'all suggest?

-- Read once a guy who kept a huge can of pepper spray, intended for use against Bear attacks, to use on intruders. Will pepper spray work on a crook hopped up on Meth and other substances?

-- What's the State of the Art in Tazers these days? Can I legally buy an inexpensive yet effective taser gun here in FL, or via Amazon or online, that works from a distance? I don't want to have to get close enough to a crack head to actually touch a taser to someone's body...

-- What else is out there that is available to consumers rather than LEOs exclusively?

Finally, what are some good and inexpensive Passive Security Measures I can implement to make my house less of a target. I consider ADT and others to be a huge scam...
With proper training in gun and situation control, IMO gun is better than many other alternatives. Maybe use rubber bullets as your primary ammo?

finite_difference
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:00 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by finite_difference » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:26 am

Rus In Urbe wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:39 am
Video surveillance and signs posted about it are, reportedly, a really good deterrent as a lot of criminals have been recently caught using video, and the word is getting out about that. We are looking into adding that to our exterior, in addition to the ADT signs.

Also, it's generally a good idea to practice "stealth wealth" as much as possible.

According to research: The one-year chances of a robbery inside your home are .004%, of them being armed is about .00168%. Lifetime chances of about 0.32%. Odds are about 1 in 6000, approximately twice as likely as getting struck by lightning in your lifetime.

If you are working through the list of statistically possible threats and have gotten down to the "home invasion" threat....I'd say you're doing pretty well. Otherwise, take precautions and don't worry too much about it.
I think the chance that the person has a gun is 12% for residential robberies when someone is at home.

So 88% of the time I should have the advantage with my quarterstaff.

Of course if they have a gun, and you have a gun, you’re probably at 50/50. They have the element of surprise but you know the terrain, assuming you can access your gun in time. But you could probably run them off unless they’re really crazy by shouting and shooting warning shots.

A gun that shoots blanks might thus go a long way. Or an unloaded shotgun that you can pump :)
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh

bampf
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:19 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by bampf » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:29 am

Self defense is a bit of a tricky thing.

If you have a weapon, you should make sure you are pretty good with it. I absolutely wouldn't recommend a handgun unless you are very skillful. Even then, practice a lot. I you were to use a bat, knife or other mundane attempt to protect yourself, you really need to think about how that goes. You don't want them to take your weapon and beat you to death with your own bat, taser or bear spray. Don't "sorta" protect yourself.

For example, I was friends with a police officer years and years ago. They are taught something called a "use of force continuum". Speak harshly, hit them with a club, taser, shoot and so forth (look it up). Her point was that because she was 5 ft nothing and 100LBs dripping wet she started with speaking harshly and then moved rapidly to "This is my gun and I will shoot you if you don't comply". Grappling with a meth head when you don't know how to do it is going to give you a very bad day.

Should there be a home invasion, and you find out about it, retreat to a protected space, have a really good shotgun that will change someone's life, and tell them not to come in. Call the police. If they come in, then you eliminate the threat. Go all the way up the use of force continuum. In the rare event that they are in your house and they don't leave as soon as you discover them, it doesn't end well. You get to decide who it doesn't end well for.

I know you want non lethal ways to defend yourself. There really isn't any good ones unless you are prepared to spend a lot of time practicing and then you need to have a plan once you have done thing that is non-lethal. Absolute best thing is to disengage safely and seek backup. Personally, if I wasn't willing or able to use a gun, I would build a safe room. Anything else is asking for trouble. Ideally a safe room and a shotgun.

Edit: To be clear, I think trying to protect your stuff ends badly. For me, its just money. Let it go. The only thing I can't replace is my life or my family's life. Shooting blanks, rubber bullets and rock salt are all things that I wouldn't do. I taught my kids that you never ever point a gun at someone unless the very next thing you intend to do is end their life. If you aren't prepared to do that, you shouldn't be pointing a gun at them.

User avatar
JoMoney
Posts: 7816
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:31 am

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by JoMoney » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:49 am

"Run, Hide, Fight" In that order.
Maybe make sure you have a plan with lots of ways to get out of the house and run for help, or a "safe room" with a way to call police, if it gets down to "fight" and you're not prepared to use maximum force available... then you're limited to hoping your aggressor has similar sensibilities.
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham

chrisjul
Posts: 184
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:15 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by chrisjul » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:54 am

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:32 am
Paint ball gun. Won't kill but it's going to hurt like heck and a full auto barrage will absolutely drive someone out.


Or......move.

Sure.....Paint ball will make someone mad if you shoot them.

Shotgun will end the matter.

Home defense.....the last level.

graeme
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:50 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by graeme » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:01 am

Passive security measures...
- Make it hard to kick in your doors using 'door armor' that reinforces the frame.
- For the back entrance, fence in the back yard so a person cannot walk to the back door without getting through the fence. A six foot wood or vinyl fence can make it so one cannot easily see the back entrance.
- As recommended, dogs can be great deterrents. Some people use a motion sensor connected to a recording of a dog barking.
- Timers on an indoor light can make it look like people are home at random times.

abyan
Posts: 511
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:51 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by abyan » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:06 am

Get a dog. A scary one that’s a scary LOOKING one. German Shepherd, Doberman, Rot or Pit and no one will ever bother you or your family ever again. You’ll also sleep exceedingly well at night. I have a small dog and she’s a great comfort, especially alone at night, since any noise sets her off. But a big dog? You can walk at the worst hours in the worst neighborhood and no one will bother you.

A do is a lot safer than a gun. And just as, if not more, effective.

Then get a good home alarm. I use Simplisafe, low cost and works well. I love them. Only $15/month, and if you think the monitoring service is a scam, don’t buy it. Just buy their alarm kit,at a couple hundred bucks, set it up, don’t buy their alarm company monitoring and you pay nothing per month. That is definitely not a scam.
Last edited by abyan on Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

jeff1949
Posts: 745
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:43 am
Location: Salem, OR

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by jeff1949 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:09 am

newcollegeman wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:11 am
Hand held boat air horn
That is one I had not thought of but seems fairly practical. :sharebeer

shell921
Posts: 344
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:13 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by shell921 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:12 am

I live in a nice area and when I attend block captain meetings of my Neighborhood Watch
and the police visit our meetings to give us crime reports, they always say the 3 best
deterrents to home invasion/burglary are :

a dog
exterior motion lights
security system

I too have an air horn and I also have wasp spray-from Home Depot. I heard it can spray 12 feet-furthur than
pepper spray.
Last edited by shell921 on Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

tibbitts
Posts: 9375
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by tibbitts » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:15 am

bob60014 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:55 am
synthfan23 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:16 am
However, I'd like to be able to protect my family in the rare event of a home invasion while I am present.
The key here is RARE. A home invader is going to be just as surprised as you if you encounter one another and most offenders do not want any violence. A baseball bat or a kitchen knife are still effective for the majority of these confrontations.
I'm not an attorney, but... while I think there is no universal legal definition of home invasion, where it's been defined I believe the definition has included the intent of carrying out violence against a person.

H-Town
Posts: 2126
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by H-Town » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:19 am

bampf wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:29 am
Self defense is a bit of a tricky thing.

If you have a weapon, you should make sure you are pretty good with it. I absolutely wouldn't recommend a handgun unless you are very skillful. Even then, practice a lot. I you were to use a bat, knife or other mundane attempt to protect yourself, you really need to think about how that goes. You don't want them to take your weapon and beat you to death with your own bat, taser or bear spray. Don't "sorta" protect yourself.

For example, I was friends with a police officer years and years ago. They are taught something called a "use of force continuum". Speak harshly, hit them with a club, taser, shoot and so forth (look it up). Her point was that because she was 5 ft nothing and 100LBs dripping wet she started with speaking harshly and then moved rapidly to "This is my gun and I will shoot you if you don't comply". Grappling with a meth head when you don't know how to do it is going to give you a very bad day.

Should there be a home invasion, and you find out about it, retreat to a protected space, have a really good shotgun that will change someone's life, and tell them not to come in. Call the police. If they come in, then you eliminate the threat. Go all the way up the use of force continuum. In the rare event that they are in your house and they don't leave as soon as you discover them, it doesn't end well. You get to decide who it doesn't end well for.

I know you want non lethal ways to defend yourself. There really isn't any good ones unless you are prepared to spend a lot of time practicing and then you need to have a plan once you have done thing that is non-lethal. Absolute best thing is to disengage safely and seek backup. Personally, if I wasn't willing or able to use a gun, I would build a safe room. Anything else is asking for trouble. Ideally a safe room and a shotgun.

Edit: To be clear, I think trying to protect your stuff ends badly. For me, its just money. Let it go. The only thing I can't replace is my life or my family's life. Shooting blanks, rubber bullets and rock salt are all things that I wouldn't do. I taught my kids that you never ever point a gun at someone unless the very next thing you intend to do is end their life. If you aren't prepared to do that, you shouldn't be pointing a gun at them.
This is terrible teaching. I have friends with law enforcement and they pride themselves in continuous training in defusing a situation. Just because police officers point a gun at someone, they don't have to shoot and they don't have to kill. This attitude from the past time doesn't work anymore. It's too easy to shoot to kill. But you gotta to do the right thing.

Note that if you live in TX and Florida, the robbers (who haven't been shot and killed) should learn that most of homeowners own guns and do not hesitate to shoot. This should be a good deterrence. A gun with rubber bullets should protect you just fine if you're willing to control the situation.

User avatar
jabberwockOG
Posts: 1828
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 7:23 am

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by jabberwockOG » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:26 am

1. The basics need to be covered first - A. Live in a good safe neighborhood. If you don;t feel 100% safe and secure where you live, life is too short, do whatever it takes to move to a better place. B. Install and use a good quality monitored home security system, and post a yard sign. C. Install video door bell and some motion detecting lights at all 4 corners of the house.

2. Acquire 9mm semiauto, or 12 gauge short barrel shotgun, both with attached laser and high intensity super high lumen strobe light. Also required is monthly 1-2 hours of gun range practice for a minimum of 2-3 years. Note that generally the cost of the gun(s) is minor to the cost of ammo that you will use in regular training so you can actually effectively use the gun. It is a big investment in time and serious money, and frankly probably not a good idea for most people given the risks of having a gun in the home and the fact that most are to lazy/busy to train regularly.

3. As an alternative to a firearm buy a 9-10 oz can of bear spray designed to stop grizzly bears. Using it indoors may affect you also, and it will be a mess in the house, but it will most definitely stop intruders. Using other types of weapons can be risky. I personally think a baseball bat is a pretty terrible self defense tool unless your attacker is very cooperate and prepared to hold perfectly still to let you swing a heavy bat at their head. I suggest a machete is a more versatile weapon indoors and is a pretty scary looking weapon for anyone thinking about attacking.

User avatar
WWJBDo
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:43 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by WWJBDo » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:27 am

This is akin to being chased by a bear - you don't need to outrun the bear just your friend also being chased.
In your case you don't need Fort Knox, just to send a thief to someone else's house.
Assuming that you are not being targeted because of inside information, then the order of operations is indeed:
Dog,
Lights,
Security system.
Police always say a dog is the best deterrent. They are loyal and won't attack you by mistake.

I have experience with pepper spray- we used it to get a rat out of the house. I knew massively irritates the eyes so we put scuba masks on first. We sprayed the sucker behind the couch. About 4-5 seconds later, my son started to have difficulty breathing. Almost had to go to the ER. Pepper spray in an enclosed environment will get a thief out, but there is a personal cost as well....
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair

tibbitts
Posts: 9375
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by tibbitts » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:32 am

The topic author hasn't been back, but the question was very specific to home invasion. Since that's a rare occurrence, it would be helpful if the OP would describe the risk factors that might apply here, since that might lead to different suggestions. We've gotten sidetracked by general defense advise (some of which seems extremely misguided and dangerous) that would not apply when someone is deliberately planning a violent attack against you.

User avatar
JoMoney
Posts: 7816
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:31 am

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by JoMoney » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:35 am

shell921 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:12 am
...I also have wasp spray-from Home Depot. I heard it can spray 12 feet-furthur than pepper spray.
Pepper spray can be found with different spray distances, and is formulated for use against human attackers. Wasp spray may be less effective or more damaging as it's not formulated and tested for the same use.
Most of the cans of wasp spray indicate a 20' stream,
https://www.amazon.com/Ortho-Defense-Ho ... B0784WG4FD
This pepper spray offers a 25' stream:
https://www.amazon.com/SABRE-Red-Pepper ... B002368VJ6
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham

chevca
Posts: 2864
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:22 am

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by chevca » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:40 am

H-Town wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:19 am
bampf wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:29 am
Self defense is a bit of a tricky thing.

If you have a weapon, you should make sure you are pretty good with it. I absolutely wouldn't recommend a handgun unless you are very skillful. Even then, practice a lot. I you were to use a bat, knife or other mundane attempt to protect yourself, you really need to think about how that goes. You don't want them to take your weapon and beat you to death with your own bat, taser or bear spray. Don't "sorta" protect yourself.

For example, I was friends with a police officer years and years ago. They are taught something called a "use of force continuum". Speak harshly, hit them with a club, taser, shoot and so forth (look it up). Her point was that because she was 5 ft nothing and 100LBs dripping wet she started with speaking harshly and then moved rapidly to "This is my gun and I will shoot you if you don't comply". Grappling with a meth head when you don't know how to do it is going to give you a very bad day.

Should there be a home invasion, and you find out about it, retreat to a protected space, have a really good shotgun that will change someone's life, and tell them not to come in. Call the police. If they come in, then you eliminate the threat. Go all the way up the use of force continuum. In the rare event that they are in your house and they don't leave as soon as you discover them, it doesn't end well. You get to decide who it doesn't end well for.

I know you want non lethal ways to defend yourself. There really isn't any good ones unless you are prepared to spend a lot of time practicing and then you need to have a plan once you have done thing that is non-lethal. Absolute best thing is to disengage safely and seek backup. Personally, if I wasn't willing or able to use a gun, I would build a safe room. Anything else is asking for trouble. Ideally a safe room and a shotgun.

Edit: To be clear, I think trying to protect your stuff ends badly. For me, its just money. Let it go. The only thing I can't replace is my life or my family's life. Shooting blanks, rubber bullets and rock salt are all things that I wouldn't do. I taught my kids that you never ever point a gun at someone unless the very next thing you intend to do is end their life. If you aren't prepared to do that, you shouldn't be pointing a gun at them.
This is terrible teaching. I have friends with law enforcement and they pride themselves in continuous training in defusing a situation. Just because police officers point a gun at someone, they don't have to shoot and they don't have to kill. This attitude from the past time doesn't work anymore. It's too easy to shoot to kill. But you gotta to do the right thing.

Note that if you live in TX and Florida, the robbers (who haven't been shot and killed) should learn that most of homeowners own guns and do not hesitate to shoot. This should be a good deterrence. A gun with rubber bullets should protect you just fine if you're willing to control the situation.
No, that is terrible teaching.

bampf did not say anything about just pointing and shooting. They actually said and explained quite the opposite. And, your LE friends still train to shoot people if needed, I bet. It's all situational. Sometimes you don't get to defuse.

H-Town
Posts: 2126
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by H-Town » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:41 am

WWJBDo wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:27 am
This is akin to being chased by a bear - you don't need to outrun the bear just your friend also being chased.
In your case you don't need Fort Knox, just to send a thief to someone else's house.
Assuming that you are not being targeted because of inside information, then the order of operations is indeed:
Dog,
Lights,
Security system.
Police always say a dog is the best deterrent. They are loyal and won't attack you by mistake.

I have experience with pepper spray- we used it to get a rat out of the house. I knew massively irritates the eyes so we put scuba masks on first. We sprayed the sucker behind the couch. About 4-5 seconds later, my son started to have difficulty breathing. Almost had to go to the ER. Pepper spray in an enclosed environment will get a thief out, but there is a personal cost as well....
^ I agree with this. We have dog, lights, security system, and we live in a safe neighborhood. This is much better feeling than knowing I have a loaded gun in my house.

User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 9559
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:42 am

One of my dogs is an 84# boxer/pit mix with I think some Great Dane thrown in. Her bark sounds larger than her size (she has a huge chest).

I guess a home invader wouldn’t know that her disposition is that of a nanny dog, and would probably head out the way he got in. I also think that our dog would figure out that someone had bad intentions, and I don’t think they’d put up much of a fight with those jaws closing on them.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

H-Town
Posts: 2126
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by H-Town » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:42 am

chevca wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:40 am
H-Town wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:19 am
bampf wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:29 am
Self defense is a bit of a tricky thing.

If you have a weapon, you should make sure you are pretty good with it. I absolutely wouldn't recommend a handgun unless you are very skillful. Even then, practice a lot. I you were to use a bat, knife or other mundane attempt to protect yourself, you really need to think about how that goes. You don't want them to take your weapon and beat you to death with your own bat, taser or bear spray. Don't "sorta" protect yourself.

For example, I was friends with a police officer years and years ago. They are taught something called a "use of force continuum". Speak harshly, hit them with a club, taser, shoot and so forth (look it up). Her point was that because she was 5 ft nothing and 100LBs dripping wet she started with speaking harshly and then moved rapidly to "This is my gun and I will shoot you if you don't comply". Grappling with a meth head when you don't know how to do it is going to give you a very bad day.

Should there be a home invasion, and you find out about it, retreat to a protected space, have a really good shotgun that will change someone's life, and tell them not to come in. Call the police. If they come in, then you eliminate the threat. Go all the way up the use of force continuum. In the rare event that they are in your house and they don't leave as soon as you discover them, it doesn't end well. You get to decide who it doesn't end well for.

I know you want non lethal ways to defend yourself. There really isn't any good ones unless you are prepared to spend a lot of time practicing and then you need to have a plan once you have done thing that is non-lethal. Absolute best thing is to disengage safely and seek backup. Personally, if I wasn't willing or able to use a gun, I would build a safe room. Anything else is asking for trouble. Ideally a safe room and a shotgun.

Edit: To be clear, I think trying to protect your stuff ends badly. For me, its just money. Let it go. The only thing I can't replace is my life or my family's life. Shooting blanks, rubber bullets and rock salt are all things that I wouldn't do. I taught my kids that you never ever point a gun at someone unless the very next thing you intend to do is end their life. If you aren't prepared to do that, you shouldn't be pointing a gun at them.
This is terrible teaching. I have friends with law enforcement and they pride themselves in continuous training in defusing a situation. Just because police officers point a gun at someone, they don't have to shoot and they don't have to kill. This attitude from the past time doesn't work anymore. It's too easy to shoot to kill. But you gotta to do the right thing.

Note that if you live in TX and Florida, the robbers (who haven't been shot and killed) should learn that most of homeowners own guns and do not hesitate to shoot. This should be a good deterrence. A gun with rubber bullets should protect you just fine if you're willing to control the situation.
No, that is terrible teaching.

bampf did not say anything about just pointing and shooting. They actually said and explained quite the opposite. And, your LE friends still train to shoot people if needed, I bet. It's all situational. Sometimes you don't get to defuse.
And you don't have to shoot every time you point a gun at someone.

chevca
Posts: 2864
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:22 am

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by chevca » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:44 am

No one in this thread has said you do. Keep making that argument though. :confused

User avatar
mrspock
Posts: 533
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:49 am
Location: Vulcan

Re: Non-lethal alternatives to firearms to defend against home invasions in Florida

Post by mrspock » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:45 am

Honestly....if you are worried about this you should stop putting your children in your car. You and your family are far more likely to come to harm doing that, then a random home invasion.

Pick your favourite behavioural economist book, but they all say the same thing: humans are horrible at assessing relative risks due to just a train wreck of mental heuristics/biases (e.g. recency bias, dunning-kruger effect, availability heuristic, belief bias etc). The very same reasons most are terrible investors, cause them to get on these sorts of tangents.

Odds of dying in a car crash in your life? ~1 in 100
Odds of "armed" home invasion in your life? ~1 in 300, and of course this is a national average, move to some upscale area of town and it's probably far less.
Odds of dying of heart disease? Stroke? Cancer? Obesity? >> 1 in 2

Morale of story here: spend less time thinking about this, and focus on your health. Buy some alarm lawn signs, stickers for the windows, and get a gym membership. When you are 85 and not dead, you can thank me :P .

Locked