issues with roofer

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Topic Author
brandy
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 pm

issues with roofer

Post by brandy »

I need some ideas.
My roof is on, completed about 3 weeks ago. Painters are here now, and pointed out a couple of issues.
One is a (shingled) section of the roof, the plywood of which should have been replaced. The visible area, eave, is weak, rotted. I do not know how large an area should have been replaced before shingling. I've worried about that section for a few years, had some repair work done to try to alleviate the problem.

Another is that the roofers used nails that were too long, some by about 1/2", some longer. They pierced the plywood sheathing, breaking/weakening it. They are visible right now not only as nails, but as dents/broken surface in the wood in the eaves and the porch ceiling.
On the formerly nice, smooth ceiling of my porch, there are now probably over 100 nails sticking down and the attendant nicks and dents. It looks awful.

They replaced some facia, had to undo the rain gutter on both areas. Now both sections show daylight between gutter and facia. On one I see the gutter is bent out, it now looks like someone hung off the outer edge, forcing it out of shape, pulled down.

A section of flashing is bowed out. Seems to me the flashing as purchased, was a bit too long, and instead of trimming it, they bowed it to get it to meet the end of the facia.
They left debris including nails in the gutters, and still lots of nails on the ground.

I called Friday afternoon, but the man was already gone. I hope to talk to him Monday morning.

At this point, My plan had been just to have them cut the nails back and fill the dents to smooth the surface of the porch ceiling and extended eave. (and other low eave. Should they do that also on the gable eaves? --nip the nails back? And fill/paint?) The painter said that filling would not work.
Are the nippers magnetic? Should they use drop cloths to catch the nibs?


I'd like ideas as to how they can repair the ceiling. I don't have the measurements between the joists, I can get them. The porch is about 6' wide and 35 feet long. The joists rest

One thought was nailing plywood onto the individual sections and painting, but nailing is not an option. Would glue work?
Or plaster? I don't want the joists covered if it can be avoided.
I know it's their job to find a solution, but I'd like to have some ideas.

Should I ask also for compensation for the paint crew for at least one day they spent working around the nails? If these nails had not been there, the painting could have been done in less time.
What else?

Fortunately, both the roofer and painter are licensed, bonded, insured. And I paid with a credit card.
miamivice
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Re: issues with roofer

Post by miamivice »

brandy wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:06 am Fortunately, both the roofer and painter are licensed, bonded, insured. And I paid with a credit card.
It is unlikely that the roofers bond or insurance will pay for poor workmanship. Insurance pays for inadvertent damage that may have been done and also insures their employees against injury, but does not cover poor quality workmanship. Bonds also will not pay for poor workmanship.

If the roofer refuses to repair, which I think is likely, you will need to sue him.

My suggestion would be to first contact another roofer and get an estimate to do the necessary rework. Then see if the first roofer is willing to pay that cost. If they are not, then you will need to sue the roofer.

Regarding the extra time the painters took, you cannot ask the roofer to pay for their time in that item.
Dilbydog
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Re: issues with roofer

Post by Dilbydog »

The added cost your painters had to incur due to substandard workmanship of the roofer, and “damage” to the substrate is a compensable claim against the roofing contractor. Additionally, if the roofer carried a price and performance bond, you can make a claim against the bond, if there isn’t a performance component to the bond you may not have remedy. Just make certain, your contract doesn't have language that you waive your rights to seek remedy upon final payment, or signed a document stating that you accepted the work as satisfactory.

Did your quote include the removal and replacement of the plywood decking? It’s super shady if there was rotting substrate and the roofer didn’t tell you. If it was a re-roof over the existing, then I could see how they could play dumb.
Topic Author
brandy
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 pm

Re: issues with roofer

Post by brandy »

Dilbydog The added cost your painters had to incur due to substandard workmanship of the roofer, and “damage” to the substrate is a compensable claim against the roofing contractor. Additionally, if the roofer carried a price and performance bond, you can make a claim against the bond, if there isn’t a performance component to the bond you may not have remedy.
He has 2 bonds: a CD and a Surety Bond. I don't know if that Surety Bond is a price and performance bond or not.

Just make certain, your contract doesn't have language that you waive your rights to seek remedy upon final payment, or signed a document stating that you accepted the work as satisfactory.
The only language I see that MAY be a waiver is on the Certificate of Completion
says I certify that: 1. Roof installation has been performed in accordance with the terms of the contract.
Well, it was nailed on... I didn't get on the roof to watch them or to check the completed job.

Did your quote include the removal and replacement of the plywood decking?
Yes.“Tear off existing roof down to the sheathing and haul away. Replace any rotted sheathing or facia board. I was billed for facia, but not plywood.
This is an area I've worried about for a few years, had repair work done a few years ago.
When roofing reps (and the field supervisor) came to give an estimate, I pointed out that area specifically. Before the work started, I called the field supervisor and told him to replace any wood that was marginal. I think there were a couple of men here another day working on that area separately.


It’s super shady if there was rotting substrate and the roofer didn’t tell you. If it was a re-roof over the existing, then I could see how they could play dumb.
No, they tore all shingles off to the sheathing. (they were supposed to)

I am looking at the registrar of contractors site. It seems to have a step by step path to follow re complaints. But I will call them Monday to ask them to mail a complaint form.
dalbright
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Re: issues with roofer

Post by dalbright »

In regards to the nails sticking through the porch roof, as this is plywood, it may not necessarily be the roofers fault (the remaining issues are a different story.) The nails are required by the manufacturer to pass at a minimum 3/4" into solid wood (planks) or a minimum of a 1/4" penetration THROUGH the plywood to prevent popped nail head and to maintain the wind rating and warranty specs. They typically use 1 1/4" nails at a minimum for roofs to accomplish this...Cutting them off although much more aesthetically pleasing could be problematic. Did u have a roll roof on there before? Its possible the prior nails were actually not appropriate for the application if they could not be seen.
Topic Author
brandy
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Re: issues with roofer

Post by brandy »

Interesting. No, no rolled roofing, shingles all it's life. And there were no nails visible until this new roof.
So you're saying the nails SHOULD be sticking out?

"Its possible the prior nails were actually not appropriate for the application if they could not be seen."
I do not know when the previous roof was put on. Best guess, probably between 1995 when the owners added a room (the one with the problem area on the west side) and 2006 when they put it up for sale. As far as I know, there was only one layer of shingles.
Thanks for your input.

(the ceiling looks awful.)
dalbright
Posts: 228
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Re: issues with roofer

Post by dalbright »

Yes unfortunately they should and are technically required to stick through plywood roofing. Solid board roofing found on older homes would not require the nail tips be visible.
Broken Man 1999
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Location: West coast of Florida, inland on high ground!

Re: issues with roofer

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

dalbright wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:59 pm In regards to the nails sticking through the porch roof, as this is plywood, it may not necessarily be the roofers fault (the remaining issues are a different story.) The nails are required by the manufacturer to pass at a minimum 3/4" into solid wood (planks) or a minimum of a 1/4" penetration THROUGH the plywood to prevent popped nail head and to maintain the wind rating and warranty specs. They typically use 1 1/4" nails at a minimum for roofs to accomplish this...Cutting them off although much more aesthetically pleasing could be problematic. Did u have a roll roof on there before? Its possible the prior nails were actually not appropriate for the application if they could not be seen.
The same issue was on our sun room roof replacement. The longer nails were required by code, it wasn't just an excuse. I put insulation in the ceiling, and added bead board, which really turned out nice, much dressier, plus the positives of insulation.

All in all I'm glad the longer nails encouraged me to add the insulation and bead board ceiling.

My sun-room is about 12'X 20', it added to the cost, but I liked the end result.

Since that roof job from years ago I have replaced the shingle roof with a metal roof. Shouldn't ever have to address again in my lifetime.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go. " -Mark Twain
donall
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Re: issues with roofer

Post by donall »

Yes, those long nails can be problematic. One of those nails pierced the AC line resulting in $900 repair.
Jeep4Life
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Re: issues with roofer

Post by Jeep4Life »

Brandy, you will have to sue if the roofer won't come back and fix the problems. Had a new roof done in 2016, the roofer did a poor job, and tried to force my DW into accepting it, as I was working out of town at the time. I had to take a day off work, come back to the house, and forcefully suggest the roofer re-do the portion of the new roof that was still leaking (thanks to the higher being for a recent rainstorm that showed the leaks). Without my intimidation, the male contractors thought they would be able to do a poor job and force the female owner to accept it. They didn't realize I was only a phone call away...
Topic Author
brandy
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 pm

Re: issues with roofer

Post by brandy »

So sorry to hear of that. Sad thing is, he's probablydone it before.
We're just into monsoon season, but my area hasn't had any rain yet. Maybe some on Monday, some on Saturday. I hope to get the rep here Monday. Seems like maybe the nails are there to stay. But that rotted wood, the gutters...I will be watching/looking for leaks.
I hope I don't need to go any further than ask. He is licensed, so filing a complaint may be all that's needed.
If, when, I can do anything with the porch ceiling, it may be hawk and trowel, but since it it is just painted, that'll have to wait.
HomeStretch
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Re: issues with roofer

Post by HomeStretch »

donall wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:08 pm Yes, those long nails can be problematic. One of those nails pierced the AC line resulting in $900 repair.
Yes, just had my AC line repaired due to a roof nail piercing it!
Topic Author
brandy
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 pm

Re: issues with roofer

Post by brandy »

The roofer rep is coming today.
In my original post, I said, "My roof is on, completed about 3 weeks ago. Painters are here now, and pointed out a couple of issues. One is a (shingled) section of the roof, the plywood of which should have been replaced. The visible area, eave, is weak, rotted. I do not know how large an area should have been replaced before shingling. I've worried about that section for a few years, had some repair work done to try to alleviate the problem. "

QUESTION What exactly can I expect him to do to take care of this? The weakest part AFAIK is at behind/at the facia, 12-16" from the wall of the house. The roof above looks like ___/ , where the end of the gable joins with the roof of the added room. The roof pitch ( /\ of the east-west ridge meets with the same or similar /\ pitch of the roof or the north south running roof of the addition. Apparently the problem of the leak is somewhere in that join area.

Even if the new shingles correct a leak, no new plywood replaced damaged wood. Maybe there wasn't any. I made a point of telling the rep AND the field supervisor about this area, and told the FS to replace even marginal wood. How large an area should the shingles be removed to check, or to replace that about 18"x24" section of eave? Should it be JUST that, or a larger area? Or none?

Also the nails coming through the eaves in the back of the house are at least an inch long. Should those be trimmed?
And why?

As to the gutters and flashing, is it reasonable to ask they be attached to the facia or replaced? At whose expense?
Yes, they had to un-attach them to replace facia. One piece appears to not have been bent too badly, a few nails or screws should take care of that portion. The other piece needs a few screws too, but it also looks like someone hung from the outside edge, bending it downward.

Help, please! I have NO knowledge of these things, and what to expect and demand as far as best - or even appropriate workmanship.
dsmil
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Re: issues with roofer

Post by dsmil »

I had a ton of issues with my roof replacement last year. Many of these things I could see with my untrained eye, and I also hired a roof inspector to then come out and write up an inspection report. They wound up coming back to fix things at least a handful of times until I was satisfied.
renue74
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Re: issues with roofer

Post by renue74 »

"Nipping" roofing nails is not the best solution for protruding nails...especially when you indicate how many there are.

I have a craftsman house with 30" eaves and visible rafter tails around all exterior walls. The typical asphalt roof nail is 1 1/4". My roofers used 1" nails on the roof part directly over the visible eaves and then later on, I actually went back and installed bead board on the underside. Even with 1" nails, there were some protruding through the 1/2" OSB sheathing used.

Your roofer would balk at nipping those nails because it probably still will not be to your liking. It would probably be best if you just install a new ceiling to the existing one.

You should make sure to take photos of all the bad areas and document your communications with the roofer. (Phone calls, email, etc.) . A timeline of communication is good in small claims court.

If it were me and the roofer didn't come back and fix the mistakes, I would pursue small claims court and get 3 estimates from other vendors on the repair costs in order to show the court.
Topic Author
brandy
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 pm

Re: issues with roofer

Post by brandy »

July 23, The rep arrived shortly before 10. We talked of gutters being away from facia and pulled down. After some discussion, mainly with him denying, then silence on my part, he did say he'd send two men to put some screws in and push it back, make it look nice. I asked, “over both carport and house ?” He said yes. He said they used longer flashing, and the shingles overhang a bit to also help water into the gutters.
The longer nails were used because shingle manufacturers warranty requires them for the 30 year warranty.
On the rotted wood, he actually did not look happy about that. They will spend time on that area and will replace at the very least, that section. He also asked the painter to leave gray paint so they could touch up. On the bowed out section of flashing, he showed me wher the plywood of that roof was actually bowed out. I did not notice it previously. Maybe due to the shorter flashing. He said that bow is probably why that facia was water damaged.
And, he will have the gutters cleaned/hosed and roll the magnet over the ground again for nails.
He may be able to have men out tomorrow (Wed.)
Thank you all. I am not confrontational, not really even very assertive. This meeting was calm, somewhat uncomfortable for me, and rational. I was able to explain my position, he listened, and is planning to take care of those issues.
We had some rain, and I did a casual look at the ceilings, will look again later.
When all is resolved, I'll post again.
Again, many thanks.
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