Baking in the summertime?

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MN-Investor
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Baking in the summertime?

Post by MN-Investor » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:11 pm

The heat index is currently 100° here in Minnesota. I’ve never liked to turn on the oven when I’m running the air conditioner. A few years ago my (now deceased) husband bought us a Breville toaster oven which is still in the box. I was wondering if it made sense to have my nephew help me set it up in my three-season porch.

Do any of you use a toaster oven outside or in a porch or attached garage during the summer? Does that make sense?
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onourway
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by onourway » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:16 pm

Even inside the house the toaster oven will put out much less heat than the full sized oven. Breville makes one of the best models; we reduce our large oven use by ~50% with one.

We also go a step further - much of our summer cooking is done outdoors. Our grill has a large flat steel cooking surface and a pizza/bread oven accessory. During summer we probably run the main oven less than once per week.

HawkeyePierce
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by HawkeyePierce » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:45 pm

Electric pressure cookers are another great summertime cooking tool.

Between an outdoor grill, toaster oven and pressure cooker I doubt you'd need the oven at all this time of year.

bob60014
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by bob60014 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:58 pm

"I’ve never liked to turn on the oven when I’m running the air conditioner......"
Can you explain your reasoning for this?

ohai
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by ohai » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:05 pm

Maybe he is concerned that two high power appliances will overburden his wiring.

jebmke
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by jebmke » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:19 pm

ohai wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:05 pm
Maybe he is concerned that two high power appliances will overburden his wiring.
more likely, just means it doesn't make sense to pay to inject heat on one end and pay to remove it on another. We rarely use the oven in summer. If we need something "roasted" it goes on the grill. More likely than not we would pan poach something and then eat it cold. Or not cook at all and eat something cold like a salad.
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Turbo29
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by Turbo29 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:22 pm

Because the two appliances are fighting each other. AC's removing heat while the oven's putting heat in. Electricity is not free.

Here in AZ I use the toaster oven for all oven type used in the summer. It fights the AC less.

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msi
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by msi » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:24 pm

The Breville is great but no need to take out to the porch area/garage.

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snackdog
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by snackdog » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:32 pm

We use the oven 12 months out of the year. You can't possibly even see the difference in the electric bill. If you have a gas oven and cheap gas (like we do), it could even cost less than running a high wattage toaster oven (depending on what you are cooking for how long).

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LilyFleur
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by LilyFleur » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:45 pm

I don't have central air, and it is usually pretty cool here in the summers. However, my condo doesn't catch a good breeze as the windows are all on one side of my unit. And it does get pretty hot here for a few weeks out of the year.

I used to have an old electric stove, glass top. The oven wasn't insulated very well and heated up my kitchen quickly. The burners took forever to heat up and also took forever to cool down, so that also heated up my kitchen quite a bit. I bought myself a portable induction burner. I would set it outside on a patio table, plug it in, and cook a big pot of chili outdoors. Kept the kitchen nice and cool. Now I have an induction stovetop with a convection oven. Both heat up my kitchen significantly less than the old electric stove. I think it's a good idea to run a toaster oven outdoors.
Last edited by LilyFleur on Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Turbo29
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by Turbo29 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:48 pm

snackdog wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:32 pm
We use the oven 12 months out of the year. You can't possibly even see the difference in the electric bill. If you have a gas oven and cheap gas (like we do), it could even cost less than running a high wattage toaster oven (depending on what you are cooking for how long).
What type of climate though?

Here in Phoenix it is currently 112F. My A/C, rated at 3Tons (36,000 Btu/hr), is effectively a 2Ton (24,000 Btu/hr) at this temperature as there is a 35F temperature gradient and the efficiency of an A/C falls as the temperature difference between indoor and outdoor increases. The average home oven puts out 16,000 Btu/hr. Lets just assume (I will pretend I am an economist) that the duty cycle has the element on 50% of the time. That means the oven will be putting out 8000 Btu/hr. This means that fully 1/3 of my A/Cs capacity is being used just to remove the heat generated by the oven. As the A/C runs ~75% of the time in these temperature conditions when the oven is not on, it means that there is not enough reserve to remove the excess heat generated by the oven even if the A/C were to run continuously while the oven is on. This means the house will get warmer (especially the kitchen). This happens regardless of the fuel source for the oven.

Any HVAC engineers on the site are welcome to shoot holes in this analysis. I may be completely wrong.
Last edited by Turbo29 on Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Broken Man 1999
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:50 pm

We are all baking in the Sunshine State, temps in the mid nineties in the shade where my trusty temp sensor is located.

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btenny
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by btenny » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:32 pm

I agree with Turbo. A regular oven heats up the kitchen in the very hot summer conditions. So it just makes a lot of sense to move the toaster oven out to the porch. Many here in Phoenix do that. My BIL does it. I do it. Plus we just do not use our regular oven during the summer. We grill outside. We fry stuff outside. We eat salads. We buy takeout. We eat out. We go to the mountains for a few days/weeks. etc....

Good Luck.

And for those that wonder. It is currently 112 degrees in Phoenix. It got up to 113 degrees this afternoon. The low last night was 90. But is a nice comfortable 77 here inside my house.

bhsince87
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by bhsince87 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:58 pm

I've done this for years here in PA. It makes a difference.

Our "summer kitchen" is on our screened in porch, under roof.

I have a small electric oven, a combo pressure cooker/air fryer/slow cooker, an electric skillet, a two burner propane stove, and a propane pizza oven. I also move the bread machine and sous vide cooker out there during the AC months.

We cook about 90% of our meals outside during the hotter periods.

We also use a clothesline as much as possible during the summer.

The clothes dryer sucks all the cool air right out of the house!
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littlebird
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by littlebird » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:56 pm

I do not find that my Breville toaster oven - it’s the smaller model, I don’t remember what it’s called - does a good job with pastry baking, ( specifically muffins/cupcakes and brownies ) although it’s useful for many other jobs. I

Shallowpockets
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by Shallowpockets » Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:58 am

You have the toaster oven. You have the porch. What is the big deal on setting it up and trying it out? What do you have to do, take it out of the box and plug it in.
How many post are you going to read here before you take action on something so simple.
Maybe it will open up a whole new world in cooking in the summer for you.

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snackdog
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by snackdog » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:08 am

Turbo29 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:48 pm
snackdog wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:32 pm
We use the oven 12 months out of the year. You can't possibly even see the difference in the electric bill. If you have a gas oven and cheap gas (like we do), it could even cost less than running a high wattage toaster oven (depending on what you are cooking for how long).
What type of climate though?

Here in Phoenix it is currently 112F. My A/C, rated at 3Tons (36,000 Btu/hr), is effectively a 2Ton (24,000 Btu/hr) at this temperature as there is a 35F temperature gradient and the efficiency of an A/C falls as the temperature difference between indoor and outdoor increases. The average home oven puts out 16,000 Btu/hr. Lets just assume (I will pretend I am an economist) that the duty cycle has the element on 50% of the time. That means the oven will be putting out 8000 Btu/hr. This means that fully 1/3 of my A/Cs capacity is being used just to remove the heat generated by the oven. As the A/C runs ~75% of the time in these temperature conditions when the oven is not on, it means that there is not enough reserve to remove the excess heat generated by the oven even if the A/C were to run continuously while the oven is on. This means the house will get warmer (especially the kitchen). This happens regardless of the fuel source for the oven.

Any HVAC engineers on the site are welcome to shoot holes in this analysis. I may be completely wrong.
If you house gets warmer, you have an issue. You don't need to calculate it, you can feel it. If you can't feel it, who cares? Most people "imagine" the oven must heat things up unbearably, but you need to try it to find out. We were worried the horrible leaky old oven in our old residence would make the kitchen unbearable so we didn't use it in summer at first. Then we starting baking bread a couple times a week in the afternoon. No issue.

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DanMahowny
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by DanMahowny » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:09 am

I bake nearly everyday. Yes it does heat up the kitchen a bit, but I just blast the AC like crazy to keep things cool.

The extra expense associated with extremely high AC use is well worth it. Can't think of a better use for money.
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BanquetBeer
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by BanquetBeer » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:12 am

Some people drive trucks some people drive Prius.

The 2 often cannot understand the other person.

I don’t like wasting resources - I don’t want to take more than my share even if I can afford to do so. We cook outside a lot in the summer heat. Also keeps the house cleaner.

Summer months are high utility usage, ~2000kWh and ~$200/mo bills. Insignificant part of our budget but something about paying to make heat and paying to remove the heat just doesn’t seem like the best solution.

psteinx
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by psteinx » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:13 am

Turbo29 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:48 pm
Here in Phoenix it is currently 112F. My A/C, rated at 3Tons (36,000 Btu/hr), is effectively a 2Ton (24,000 Btu/hr) at this temperature as there is a 35F temperature gradient and the efficiency of an A/C falls as the temperature difference between indoor and outdoor increases. The average home oven puts out 16,000 Btu/hr. Lets just assume (I will pretend I am an economist) that the duty cycle has the element on 50% of the time. That means the oven will be putting out 8000 Btu/hr. This means that fully 1/3 of my A/Cs capacity is being used just to remove the heat generated by the oven. As the A/C runs ~75% of the time in these temperature conditions when the oven is not on, it means that there is not enough reserve to remove the excess heat generated by the oven even if the A/C were to run continuously while the oven is on. This means the house will get warmer (especially the kitchen). This happens regardless of the fuel source for the oven.

Any HVAC engineers on the site are welcome to shoot holes in this analysis. I may be completely wrong.
I'm no HVAC engineer.

But I think your analysis may be off.

1) I suspect that a 16K BTU oven will only be putting out 16K of BTUs while it is coming up to temp (pre-heating or whatever), then will cycle thereafter.

2) I think that A/Cs are more efficient than heating. An electric heater dumps 100% of its BTUs into the space it's heating. But I think an A/C can be >100% efficient - it's the principle that can make a heat pump (basically a reverse A/C, IIUC), more efficient than a straight electric heater. I'm not sure on the specifics of this, perhaps someone better informed can respond.

As a wild guess, I'd say bringing a typical 16K electric oven up to 350, then baking something for 60 minutes, might involve the equivalent of 16K * 30 minutes of heating time (warm-up and follow-up heating), and that you could offset this by running a 16K A/C for perhaps 15 minutes. (I seem to recall that modern A/C is ~twice the efficiency of electric heat, in reverse.)

So, perhaps not ideal on a blistering hot day, but on typical warm summer days (say, 95), for typical baking tasks (an hour or so of oven use or less), with a reasonably effective oven* and A/C, I'd guess this is not going to be THAT big of an issue, for most folks.

* While any oven should put ~100% of its BTUs into the environment that surrounds it (i.e. your kitchen and the thing(s) you're baking), an inefficient oven (i.e. thinly insulated) will require the heating element to be on more often/intensively to maintain a given temperature.

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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by Dottie57 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:16 am

MN-Investor wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:11 pm
The heat index is currently 100° here in Minnesota. I’ve never liked to turn on the oven when I’m running the air conditioner. A few years ago my (now deceased) husband bought us a Breville toaster oven which is still in the box. I was wondering if it made sense to have my nephew help me set it up in my three-season porch.

Do any of you use a toaster oven outside or in a porch or attached garage during the summer? Does that make sense?
I have a patio. But I wouldn’t use it there because of ants and other bugs which might be attracted.

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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by Dottie57 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:18 am

LilyFleur wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:45 pm
I don't have central air, and it is usually pretty cool here in the summers. However, my condo doesn't catch a good breeze as the windows are all on one side of my unit. And it does get pretty hot here for a few weeks out of the year.

I used to have an old electric stove, glass top. The oven wasn't insulated very well and heated up my kitchen quickly. The burners took forever to heat up and also took forever to cool down, so that also heated up my kitchen quite a bit. I bought myself a portable induction burner. I would set it outside on a patio table, plug it in, and cook a big pot of chili outdoors. Kept the kitchen nice and cool. Now I have an induction stovetop with a convection oven. Both heat up my kitchen significantly less than the old electric stove. I think it's a good idea to run a toaster oven outdoors.
I have thought of an induction burner. I may end up getting one.

bloom2708
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by bloom2708 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:25 am

btenny wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:32 pm
And for those that wonder. It is currently 112 degrees in Phoenix. It got up to 113 degrees this afternoon. The low last night was 90. But is a nice comfortable 77 here inside my house.
112 degrees, 14% humidity in Phoenix (high?), dew point 42 degrees

88 degrees, 71% humidity in Mpls (could be higher), dew point 71 degrees (will get higher)

Which is more comfortable? :mrgreen: :wink:

I would (and do) use the toaster oven when it is the "right size" for the job. Very handy units.
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Glockenspiel
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by Glockenspiel » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:11 pm

bloom2708 wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:25 am
btenny wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:32 pm
And for those that wonder. It is currently 112 degrees in Phoenix. It got up to 113 degrees this afternoon. The low last night was 90. But is a nice comfortable 77 here inside my house.
112 degrees, 14% humidity in Phoenix (high?), dew point 42 degrees

88 degrees, 71% humidity in Mpls (could be higher), dew point 71 degrees (will get higher)

Which is more comfortable? :mrgreen: :wink:

I would (and do) use the toaster oven when it is the "right size" for the job. Very handy units.
Phoenix is likely more comfortable with the low humidity. On Sunday in Minneapolis, it was around 92 with high humidity and sweat was literally dripping from my face while just standing outside at a kid's birthday party.

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LilyFleur
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by LilyFleur » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:30 pm

It has been about 74 degrees and hovering around 70% humidity inside my condo the past week. It's uncomfortable when my bathroom shoots up to 80% humidity after a shower. I've started blow-drying my hair on the back patio. It seems like it's a lot more humid in my condo than it is outside.

grainne
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by grainne » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:45 pm

Just wanted to add that I love our portable induction cooker and have used it many times on the deck.

Efficiency in all things pleases me. : )

Cwise
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by Cwise » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:54 pm

MN-Investor wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:11 pm
The heat index is currently 100° here in Minnesota. I’ve never liked to turn on the oven when I’m running the air conditioner. A few years ago my (now deceased) husband bought us a Breville toaster oven which is still in the box. I was wondering if it made sense to have my nephew help me set it up in my three-season porch.

Do any of you use a toaster oven outside or in a porch or attached garage during the summer? Does that make sense?
Probably need a new oven. The seal on the door may not be keeping the heat in the oven. I just replaced my oven and the only time heat escapes is when I open the door. You can put your hand on the glass door and it is as cool as the rest of the kitchen. Heat does escape when the door opens but that is for a very short time.

bhsince87
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by bhsince87 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:59 pm

Cwise wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:54 pm
MN-Investor wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:11 pm
The heat index is currently 100° here in Minnesota. I’ve never liked to turn on the oven when I’m running the air conditioner. A few years ago my (now deceased) husband bought us a Breville toaster oven which is still in the box. I was wondering if it made sense to have my nephew help me set it up in my three-season porch.

Do any of you use a toaster oven outside or in a porch or attached garage during the summer? Does that make sense?
Probably need a new oven. The seal on the door may not be keeping the heat in the oven. I just replaced my oven and the only time heat escapes is when I open the door. You can put your hand on the glass door and it is as cool as the rest of the kitchen. Heat does escape when the door opens but that is for a very short time.
A leaky oven is not good from an efficiency perspective. It will use more electricity.

But the heat from EVERY indoor oven will eventually seep out into the living area. It will just take longer with a well insulated oven.
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bloom2708
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by bloom2708 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:04 pm

Glockenspiel wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:11 pm
Phoenix is likely more comfortable with the low humidity. On Sunday in Minneapolis, it was around 92 with high humidity and sweat was literally dripping from my face while just standing outside at a kid's birthday party.
I agree with you. Some wouldn't.

We hiked Piestewa Peak it was 98, sunny, 7% humidity. We were perfectly comfortable. At the peak I had some underarm sweat from effort.

Yesterday (in Fargo) I walked to my shed in the back yard. Put a couple things away. Walked back to the front yard and was a sweaty mess. Dripping from forehead, sweat all over my t-shirt. It was kind of funny. In a funny sort of way. :wink:
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BanquetBeer
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by BanquetBeer » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:51 pm

Looking at SEER ratings (based on 80/90F) and assuming you keep your house at 77F with outside temps of 110F

A SEER 20 drops to about 6.6

With that decreased efficiency, every hour run a 1000W heater costs you (1000 + 144)/1000 = 1.144 kWh

If your AC SEER is 15 that bumps electricity usage to 1.172kWh

So you pay for the heat produced and cooling that heat costs 14-17% of the heating energy.

For a comparison, my stove burner is 10A x 240V so 2400W full on.

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LilyFleur
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by LilyFleur » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:58 pm

Dottie57 wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:18 am
LilyFleur wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:45 pm
I don't have central air, and it is usually pretty cool here in the summers. However, my condo doesn't catch a good breeze as the windows are all on one side of my unit. And it does get pretty hot here for a few weeks out of the year.

I used to have an old electric stove, glass top. The oven wasn't insulated very well and heated up my kitchen quickly. The burners took forever to heat up and also took forever to cool down, so that also heated up my kitchen quite a bit. I bought myself a portable induction burner. I would set it outside on a patio table, plug it in, and cook a big pot of chili outdoors. Kept the kitchen nice and cool. Now I have an induction stovetop with a convection oven. Both heat up my kitchen significantly less than the old electric stove. I think it's a good idea to run a toaster oven outdoors.
I have thought of an induction burner. I may end up getting one.
I used the 20 percent off coupon at Bed Bath & Beyond. You will need pans that a magnet will stick to.

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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by Dottie57 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:06 pm

LilyFleur wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:58 pm
Dottie57 wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:18 am
LilyFleur wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:45 pm
I don't have central air, and it is usually pretty cool here in the summers. However, my condo doesn't catch a good breeze as the windows are all on one side of my unit. And it does get pretty hot here for a few weeks out of the year.

I used to have an old electric stove, glass top. The oven wasn't insulated very well and heated up my kitchen quickly. The burners took forever to heat up and also took forever to cool down, so that also heated up my kitchen quite a bit. I bought myself a portable induction burner. I would set it outside on a patio table, plug it in, and cook a big pot of chili outdoors. Kept the kitchen nice and cool. Now I have an induction stovetop with a convection oven. Both heat up my kitchen significantly less than the old electric stove. I think it's a good idea to run a toaster oven outdoors.
I have thought of an induction burner. I may end up getting one.
I used the 20 percent off coupon at Bed Bath & Beyond. You will need pans that a magnet will stick to.
I will check my pots and pans.

grainne
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by grainne » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:27 pm

Portable induction cooktop reviews:

https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best- ... n-cooktop/

We found good deals on Amazon.

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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by lthenderson » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:12 pm

psteinx wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:13 am
Turbo29 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:48 pm
Here in Phoenix it is currently 112F. My A/C, rated at 3Tons (36,000 Btu/hr), is effectively a 2Ton (24,000 Btu/hr) at this temperature as there is a 35F temperature gradient and the efficiency of an A/C falls as the temperature difference between indoor and outdoor increases. The average home oven puts out 16,000 Btu/hr. Lets just assume (I will pretend I am an economist) that the duty cycle has the element on 50% of the time. That means the oven will be putting out 8000 Btu/hr. This means that fully 1/3 of my A/Cs capacity is being used just to remove the heat generated by the oven. As the A/C runs ~75% of the time in these temperature conditions when the oven is not on, it means that there is not enough reserve to remove the excess heat generated by the oven even if the A/C were to run continuously while the oven is on. This means the house will get warmer (especially the kitchen). This happens regardless of the fuel source for the oven.

Any HVAC engineers on the site are welcome to shoot holes in this analysis. I may be completely wrong.
I'm no HVAC engineer.

But I think your analysis may be off.

1) I suspect that a 16K BTU oven will only be putting out 16K of BTUs while it is coming up to temp (pre-heating or whatever), then will cycle thereafter.

2) I think that A/Cs are more efficient than heating. An electric heater dumps 100% of its BTUs into the space it's heating. But I think an A/C can be >100% efficient - it's the principle that can make a heat pump (basically a reverse A/C, IIUC), more efficient than a straight electric heater. I'm not sure on the specifics of this, perhaps someone better informed can respond.

As a wild guess, I'd say bringing a typical 16K electric oven up to 350, then baking something for 60 minutes, might involve the equivalent of 16K * 30 minutes of heating time (warm-up and follow-up heating), and that you could offset this by running a 16K A/C for perhaps 15 minutes. (I seem to recall that modern A/C is ~twice the efficiency of electric heat, in reverse.)

So, perhaps not ideal on a blistering hot day, but on typical warm summer days (say, 95), for typical baking tasks (an hour or so of oven use or less), with a reasonably effective oven* and A/C, I'd guess this is not going to be THAT big of an issue, for most folks.

* While any oven should put ~100% of its BTUs into the environment that surrounds it (i.e. your kitchen and the thing(s) you're baking), an inefficient oven (i.e. thinly insulated) will require the heating element to be on more often/intensively to maintain a given temperature.
Also, a significant amount of heat gets converted into energy to cook the food in the oven.

Turbo29
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Re: Baking in the summertime?

Post by Turbo29 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:24 pm

Heat is energy. And when you cook the food you heat the food. if you eat it hot then it just heats your body up in your body transfers that heat to the interior of your house. If you put it in the refrigerator refrigerator takes the heat in the food and pumps it back in your house and adds a little more for good measure.

Unless you eat the hot food and immediately leave your house your air conditioner is going to be responsible for removing all that heat that went into the food when you cooked it as well as the incidental heat from the cooking appliances.

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