Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

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Barkingsparrow
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by Barkingsparrow » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:24 pm

Update. My plan was to buy in Oct of this year. At one point I thought I'd get a Camry, but we already have one. I figured I still have 2-4 years of working so a smaller commuter car would be better. I added the Mazda 3 to the Corolla/Civic mix, but there's no dealer near by, while I have two Honda dealers and one Toyota dealer within minutes. Having a dealer close by is a major plus over the longer-term. The Mazda dealer is way out of the way North, East, or West; and it would be a logistics issue to run there for scheduled maintenance.

After reading every review I could find, it seems that the Honda Civic is a better overall car with more features for the $$$ than the Corolla. The Corolla has the stronger reliability, but just falls short in other areas.

I'm scheduling test drives this week and hope to buy by the weekend.

Winston19
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by Winston19 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:55 pm

Good luck with the test drives. I think mazda priced themselves out of the market with the new 3 (this is coming from am owner of 2 Mazdas).

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jabberwockOG
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by jabberwockOG » Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:51 pm

Dude2 wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:59 am
If I may offer some food for thought as long time owner of Corollas, Civics, and Camries...I would consider going up one level, i.e. select Camry or Accord. The smaller cars are great, but they have their issues. The one that used to drive me crazy was the CV joint boots cracking all the time. Also, with smaller wheels and less mass put into the frame and suspension design, I find they tend to go out of alignment easier. It's just less of a car and so easier to be affected by running over a curb or taking a speed bump too fast, etc. On the other hand, your Camry is heavier, more stable, better built, but you suffer almost no ill effects from it. Gas mileage is comparable, maintenance costs are similar. I think it's worth it. Whether you go Honda or Toyota is not relevant, but size of car is in other words. You get what you pay for in this case.
Agree. In today's world of way too many distracted drivers, with many of them driving 5-6000 lb pickup trucks and SUVs, I'd buy a 2-3 year old camry or accord for a newish driver. Check Hertz rent to buy site - allows you to rent the car that you can then buy if it passes inspection and 2-3 days drive.

rixer
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by rixer » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:58 am

Both great commuter cars. Civic would be my choice.

researcher
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by researcher » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:20 am

Barkingsparrow wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:24 pm
I added the Mazda 3 to the Corolla/Civic mix, but there's no dealer near by, while I have two Honda dealers and one Toyota dealer within minutes. Having a dealer close by is a major plus over the longer-term. The Mazda dealer is way out of the way North, East, or West; and it would be a logistics issue to run there for scheduled maintenance.
Why do you feel the need to take your vehicles to the dealership for scheduled maintenance?
The dealership service department would be the absolute last factor I would use in selecting a new vehicle.

The Mazda 3 is far superior to the Civic and Corolla.
You should at least test drive the Mazda 3 before ruling it out.

FYI...My last 2 cars were bought brand new from the dealership. Both were driven >150K miles and 11+ years.
I can count on one hand the number of times they were at the dealership service department combined.

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ReformedSpender
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by ReformedSpender » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:27 am

Life is too short to be driving bland cars

:beer
Market history shows that when there's economic blue sky, future returns are low, and when the economy is on the skids, future returns are high. The best fishing is done in the most stormy waters.

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Taylor Larimore
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by Taylor Larimore » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:44 am

Reformed Spender wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:27 am
Life is too short to be driving bland cars.
Reformed Spender:

Perhaps you should change your username. :happy

Couldn't resist.

Best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom:I don’t like going into stores, I don’t like the whole process of buying things. I have everything I could possibly need."
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle

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ReformedSpender
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by ReformedSpender » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:28 am

Taylor Larimore wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:44 am
Reformed Spender:

Perhaps you should change your username. :happy

Couldn't resist.

Best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom:I don’t like going into stores, I don’t like the whole process of buying things. I have everything I could possibly need."
Taylor,

With all due respect, username's are or can be fictitious. 'Reformedspender' has no bearing on my actual lifestyle.

:beer
Market history shows that when there's economic blue sky, future returns are low, and when the economy is on the skids, future returns are high. The best fishing is done in the most stormy waters.

bikechuck
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by bikechuck » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:49 am

If costs are the primary factor, how about a riding lawn mower like Alvin Straight used when he traveled across Iowa and Wisconsin to visit his elderly brother. They made a movie about him which I highly recommend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Straight_Story

Helo80
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by Helo80 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:30 pm

I was in two long term rentals earlier this year and had a '19 Chevy Cruze and '19 Toyota Corolla. I enjoyed the Cruze much more than the Corolla, and that surprised me. The Corolla's interior was bland and uninspired. The Corolla also did not support Android Auto (Note: Toyota's are finally starting to support Android Auto and Apple CarPlay in 2020 after ignoring it for years...)

I'm sure that the Corolla will last a long-time, but I know that if it came to spending my personal money, I would have gone with the Cruze... Plus, the seats in the Cruze were more comfortable to me, or at least fit my body better.

I know that many BHs talk up Corollas and so I was excited to rent one..... it would have been a financial mistake had I bought one.

But, the Corolla may fit your needs better than mine.

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Feb29
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by Feb29 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:44 pm

I believe Honda's reliability has gone down. I say this as an owner of 4 Civics and an Odyssey. Last year I got my first Toyota, a Highlander. When it's time to replace the Civic, I will be getting a Camry.

fatlever
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by fatlever » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:45 pm

This is an interesting thread. My grilfriend recently got a Honda because it was the nicer looking car but from everything I've read it appears Honda has slipped badly in terms of quality and reliability.

https://www.designnews.com/electronics- ... 1123260385

Topic Author
Barkingsparrow
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic. Now Accord or Camry

Post by Barkingsparrow » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:08 pm

Test-drove a 2019 Civic LX. Just was not thrilled at all. Wife and I decided to forgo the Corolla as well, and step up a level in comfort and space.

Test-drove a Accord LX. Then test-drove a Camry LE, and immediately test-drove an Accord LX again. My impressions:

1. The Accord was much more sportier and fun to drive. It accelerated more quickly and was smoother in the shifting. With the Camry I had to push down harder on the gas to make it go and was muttering to myself "Go, go!". However, the Camry did have a smoother ride, other than the shifting, and was just slightly less noisy. Still, the difference in the acceleration was so noticeable that I was wondering whether I had some engine mode toggled on in the Camry by accident, maybe "Old Man Mode", because I really felt like I had to push a lot harder on the Camry to get it up to speed. Now I'm not that technical when it comes to cars, but I had a hard time understanding this because the Camry generates more horsepower.

2. Interior quality. Slight Edge to Camry. It was more comfortable, the drivers seat had automatic controls and lumbar support. The Camry entertainment system was more robust, with Apple Play, and 6 speakers. The Accord came with only 4 speakers and no Apple Play. Overall, I prefer the Camry's interior and entertainment system, just seemed more elegant. The Accord had more space in the back seat and in the trunk. Really not a huge difference maker in the decision.

3. Safety features. The Camry we drove had more options such as the Convenience package, so it more safety features such as blind-spot and cross-traffic. I would have to upgrade to the Honda EX trim to get basically the same feature base. Since I'm coming from a 10-year old car with zero safety features, this category is not something major in my head.

4. Reliability. And here is where I have my doubts. I think the Camry will have the edge in reliability. I think it comes down to the difference in engines, the Camry has a 2.5L/8-speed automatic vs the Accord 1.5L/turbocharged/CVT. I really really enjoyed driving the Accord more but I'm not sure how that engine will hold up over 5 years, 10 years. My gut instinct and research says the Camry will be more durable/reliable, and a better bet for keeping it for 10 years without experiencing major issues. I just do not know.

5. Cost. I think I can get the Accord for about $1000 to $1500 under the Camry package. Honda offered a 1.9% APR for 3 years, Toyota offered a 0.9% APR for whatever term pretty much. Toyota also has some promotion where they pay for all oil changes/tire rotations for 2 years which really isn't much of a factor.

I go back and forth. The Honda was a lot more fun to drive, but in the long term, I've just got some doubts about the 1.5L turbocharged/CVT. Again, I don't have the technical expertise, and that is just a general impression - maybe someone who is much more technical can provide some insight.

tibbitts
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by tibbitts » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:20 pm

MathIsMyWayr wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:14 pm
epictetus wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:36 am
the data from Consumer Reports suggests that Toyota is more reliable overall that Honda.

that has also been my experience as an owner of 2 Hondas in the past and 2 Toyotas now.
My old '99 Corolla was going strong over 310,000 miles with everything original (water pump, radiator, fuel pump, alternator, starter,,,, ), but I had to get rid of it because it failed the California emission test. Toyotas are overly for reliability at the cost of being boring and behind other car manufactures in new stuffs.
You have to say "were overly... (I assume built)" when you're talking about a 20-year-old car. Whether that's still the case is another question. I don't know that it's not, I just don't know if Toyota intentionally overbuilds vs. other brands today.

anoop
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic. Now Accord or Camry

Post by anoop » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:33 pm

Barkingsparrow wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:08 pm
Test-drove a 2019 Civic LX. Just was not thrilled at all. Wife and I decided to forgo the Corolla as well, and step up a level in comfort and space.

Test-drove a Accord LX. Then test-drove a Camry LE, and immediately test-drove an Accord LX again. My impressions:

1. The Accord was much more sportier and fun to drive. It accelerated more quickly and was smoother in the shifting. With the Camry I had to push down harder on the gas to make it go and was muttering to myself "Go, go!". However, the Camry did have a smoother ride, other than the shifting, and was just slightly less noisy. Still, the difference in the acceleration was so noticeable that I was wondering whether I had some engine mode toggled on in the Camry by accident, maybe "Old Man Mode", because I really felt like I had to push a lot harder on the Camry to get it up to speed. Now I'm not that technical when it comes to cars, but I had a hard time understanding this because the Camry generates more horsepower.

2. Interior quality. Slight Edge to Camry. It was more comfortable, the drivers seat had automatic controls and lumbar support. The Camry entertainment system was more robust, with Apple Play, and 6 speakers. The Accord came with only 4 speakers and no Apple Play. Overall, I prefer the Camry's interior and entertainment system, just seemed more elegant. The Accord had more space in the back seat and in the trunk. Really not a huge difference maker in the decision.

3. Safety features. The Camry we drove had more options such as the Convenience package, so it more safety features such as blind-spot and cross-traffic. I would have to upgrade to the Honda EX trim to get basically the same feature base. Since I'm coming from a 10-year old car with zero safety features, this category is not something major in my head.

4. Reliability. And here is where I have my doubts. I think the Camry will have the edge in reliability. I think it comes down to the difference in engines, the Camry has a 2.5L/8-speed automatic vs the Accord 1.5L/turbocharged/CVT. I really really enjoyed driving the Accord more but I'm not sure how that engine will hold up over 5 years, 10 years. My gut instinct and research says the Camry will be more durable/reliable, and a better bet for keeping it for 10 years without experiencing major issues. I just do not know.

5. Cost. I think I can get the Accord for about $1000 to $1500 under the Camry package. Honda offered a 1.9% APR for 3 years, Toyota offered a 0.9% APR for whatever term pretty much. Toyota also has some promotion where they pay for all oil changes/tire rotations for 2 years which really isn't much of a factor.

I go back and forth. The Honda was a lot more fun to drive, but in the long term, I've just got some doubts about the 1.5L turbocharged/CVT. Again, I don't have the technical expertise, and that is just a general impression - maybe someone who is much more technical can provide some insight.
My pick would be the Camry because of seat comfort. I prefer the looks of the Accord, but I have heard many complaints that the seats are not comfortable especially on longer rides.

Winston19
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by Winston19 » Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:54 pm

consider trying the Camry LE hybrid. It costs more than the LE but is more powerful, quieter, has better fuel economy, and some additional features.

Topic Author
Barkingsparrow
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by Barkingsparrow » Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:05 pm

This might be of interest, and exactly the kind of thing that I was thinking about:

https://www.designnews.com/electronics- ... 8542158513

jlawrence01
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by jlawrence01 » Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:28 pm

I own a 2007 Toyota Corolla. For the past ten days, I have been driving a 2020 Toyota Corolla that I rented from Hertz with about 4500 miles.

Several comments:

1) I always like to hear all these people who say that their Toyota has all original equipment. Despite servicing my car every 5000 miles following the owner's manual completely, I am on my third water pump, have new struts and replaced one wheel bearing. Also, I have replaced the entire exhaust system due to rust. My other cars did not require that. I am not saying that the car is not reliable. However, the notion that you are not going to spend money on maintenance and repairs is delusional.

2) The 2020 Corolla is quite a nice car with a pleasant ride. I am averaging approximately 38 mpg driving through Delaware and New Jersey and all of the traffic. This is substantially better performance than the Mazda 3 that I drove last month in Ohio. It is quieter than the Mazda 3. In my opinion, I would choose the Hyundai Elantra before buying the Mazda.

3) I strongly recommend that the OP drive both cars on an extended test drive over a variety of terrains. There are a lot of cars out there that look great but when you get into them, they are not comfortable. One disadvantage with the new Corolla is that it is harder for me to get into than the older models. Another is that many large drivers may find that their back does not fit the driver's seats curvature.

4) I would be hesitant to buy the new Corolla in the 2020 model year. New models are generally less reliable than later models.

anoop
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by anoop » Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:20 pm

Barkingsparrow wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:05 pm
This might be of interest, and exactly the kind of thing that I was thinking about:

https://www.designnews.com/electronics- ... 8542158513
Some honda engines are known for having an oil dilution problem:
https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2018 ... suit.shtml
I don't know if this is still true for 2020.

macarose
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by macarose » Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:55 pm

This is Steven Lang. I am a fairly well known automotive journalist.

First off, you should look here for long-term reliability. I co-developed the study and it has been featured on the front page of Yahoo nearly a dozen times. We have professional mechanics inspect the vehicles instead of owners filling out surveys and our results are substantially different than Consumer Reports.

http://www.dashboard-light.com/

Second, nobody here can read your name. No one You and your wife will have preferences for one type of vehicle over another and that will pretty much be it.

Finally, the auto industry has experienced seven straight years of healthy sales and the glut of used cars out there right now is just unreal. Unless you're looking at buying the most popular vehicles with all the options, your bang for the buck is going to likely be getting that three year old car with around 30,000 to 40,000 miles for roughly half of the new car price.

I would look closely at an older Lexus GS. They are wonderful to drive and their long-term reliability is exceptional.

All the best!

JDave
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by JDave » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:42 am

Civic quality/reliability has declined the past 10 years.
Corolla quality/reliability has not.

Helo80
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by Helo80 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:48 pm

macarose wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:55 pm
This is Steven Lang. I am a fairly well known automotive journalist.

First off, you should look here for long-term reliability. I co-developed the study and it has been featured on the front page of Yahoo nearly a dozen times. We have professional mechanics inspect the vehicles instead of owners filling out surveys and our results are substantially different than Consumer Reports.

http://www.dashboard-light.com/

Second, nobody here can read your name. No one You and your wife will have preferences for one type of vehicle over another and that will pretty much be it.

Finally, the auto industry has experienced seven straight years of healthy sales and the glut of used cars out there right now is just unreal. Unless you're looking at buying the most popular vehicles with all the options, your bang for the buck is going to likely be getting that three year old car with around 30,000 to 40,000 miles for roughly half of the new car price.

I would look closely at an older Lexus GS. They are wonderful to drive and their long-term reliability is exceptional.

All the best!
I disagree with the assertion that used cars lose half of their value in 3 years. BHs generally don't gravitate towards Dodge Journey's or any FCA product....

The Camry/Accord/Civic/Corolla's this crowd likes to buy holds their value better than 50%.... American passenger sedans may be different... then again, the whole lineup is being slammed by the current SUV craze. As you know, trucks are in a ridiculous spot right now and are holding their value well.

smitcat
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by smitcat » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:57 pm

Helo80 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:48 pm
macarose wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:55 pm
This is Steven Lang. I am a fairly well known automotive journalist.

First off, you should look here for long-term reliability. I co-developed the study and it has been featured on the front page of Yahoo nearly a dozen times. We have professional mechanics inspect the vehicles instead of owners filling out surveys and our results are substantially different than Consumer Reports.

http://www.dashboard-light.com/

Second, nobody here can read your name. No one You and your wife will have preferences for one type of vehicle over another and that will pretty much be it.

Finally, the auto industry has experienced seven straight years of healthy sales and the glut of used cars out there right now is just unreal. Unless you're looking at buying the most popular vehicles with all the options, your bang for the buck is going to likely be getting that three year old car with around 30,000 to 40,000 miles for roughly half of the new car price.

I would look closely at an older Lexus GS. They are wonderful to drive and their long-term reliability is exceptional.

All the best!
I disagree with the assertion that used cars lose half of their value in 3 years. BHs generally don't gravitate towards Dodge Journey's or any FCA product....

The Camry/Accord/Civic/Corolla's this crowd likes to buy holds their value better than 50%.... American passenger sedans may be different... then again, the whole lineup is being slammed by the current SUV craze. As you know, trucks are in a ridiculous spot right now and are holding their value well.
"the whole lineup is being slammed by the current SUV craze. As you know, trucks are in a ridiculous spot right now and are holding their value well."
Agree with you Helo80 - we have seen retained values of over 75% for 3-4 year old SUV's and trucks over the past dozen years or so.

Helo80
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by Helo80 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:37 pm

smitcat wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:57 pm
"the whole lineup is being slammed by the current SUV craze. As you know, trucks are in a ridiculous spot right now and are holding their value well."
Agree with you Helo80 - we have seen retained values of over 75% for 3-4 year old SUV's and trucks over the past dozen years or so.


Yup -- any time a BH is looking for a used D-segment or compact sedan, it's usual the four Japanese cars I mentioned. They are generally safe bets, though guess what? You and every other shopper looking for a reliable, used car in the 30k-40k mile range is looking at the same product. Increased demand does what to prices?

I generally recommend new on those four... Sometimes though, if you get a really high-end one, e.g. a V-6 or Sport edition of Camry/Accord that retails for $28k to 34k+, maybe 3-4 years will save you close to $10k. But, if you get a standard, no or few frills of the four... just buy new. You get the color, options, warranty, and can ensure it is maintained properly.

Starfish
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by Starfish » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:56 pm

JDave wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:42 am
Civic quality/reliability has declined the past 10 years.
Corolla quality/reliability has not.
Quality? :D
Choosing between Corolla por Civic is like death by hanging or beheading. Still unpleasant.
To me these cars are very poor value in terms of experience offered vs price. Yes, they might be more reliable, so one will drive them for a long and torturous time.
Same goes for Camry and Accord.

Helo80
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by Helo80 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:09 pm

Starfish wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:56 pm
Quality? :D
Choosing between Corolla por Civic is like death by hanging or beheading. Still unpleasant.
To me these cars are very poor value in terms of experience offered vs price. Yes, they might be more reliable, so one will drive them for a long and torturous time.
Same goes for Camry and Accord.

You should enjoy this video then... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZqVKa6Fqd0

Fires shots at BHs...

And as I stated above BHs, I was in a 2019 Corolla earlier this year for over a month... and was thoroughly underwhelmed by road noise, power, room, comfort, etc. I was not expecting a Land Rover type experience... but based upon how many people here rave about their Corolla's.... I was thoroughly disappointed.

anoop
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by anoop » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:17 pm

Starfish wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:56 pm
JDave wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:42 am
Civic quality/reliability has declined the past 10 years.
Corolla quality/reliability has not.
Quality? :D
Choosing between Corolla por Civic is like death by hanging or beheading. Still unpleasant.
To me these cars are very poor value in terms of experience offered vs price. Yes, they might be more reliable, so one will drive them for a long and torturous time.
Same goes for Camry and Accord.
What do you think is a good value?

smitcat
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by smitcat » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:34 pm

A good value is any vehicle that serves your purpose and makes you happy.
Since my goals are not likely to be the same as anyone else's my best vehicle values will differ as well.
YMMV

researcher
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by researcher » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:05 pm

Starfish wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:56 pm
Choosing between Corolla por Civic is like death by hanging or beheading. Still unpleasant.
To me these cars are very poor value in terms of experience offered vs price. Yes, they might be more reliable, so one will drive them for a long and torturous time.
Same goes for Camry and Accord.
Have you driven the current generation Civic or Accord?

They both made Car & Driver's 10Best list...
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a ... 2019hondaa

The Honda Civic Sport hatchback, Si, and Type R share a common theme. They're overachievers, economy cars overcompensating for tepid expectations with unnatural talent. All three deliver bold responses and yearn to be more than simple commuters.

stoptothink
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by stoptothink » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:11 pm

researcher wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:05 pm
Starfish wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:56 pm
Choosing between Corolla por Civic is like death by hanging or beheading. Still unpleasant.
To me these cars are very poor value in terms of experience offered vs price. Yes, they might be more reliable, so one will drive them for a long and torturous time.
Same goes for Camry and Accord.
Have you driven the current generation Civic or Accord?

They both made Car & Driver's 10Best list...
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a ... 2019hondaa

The Honda Civic Sport hatchback, Si, and Type R share a common theme. They're overachievers, economy cars overcompensating for tepid expectations with unnatural talent. All three deliver bold responses and yearn to be more than simple commuters.
Yeah, that was an odd post. Reliability seems to be on a downward trajectory, but Hondas (specifically civic and accord) are only getting more fun to drive. In their class, they are probably only matched in that regard by Mazda's offerings.

anoop
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by anoop » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:16 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:11 pm
researcher wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:05 pm
Starfish wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:56 pm
Choosing between Corolla por Civic is like death by hanging or beheading. Still unpleasant.
To me these cars are very poor value in terms of experience offered vs price. Yes, they might be more reliable, so one will drive them for a long and torturous time.
Same goes for Camry and Accord.
Have you driven the current generation Civic or Accord?

They both made Car & Driver's 10Best list...
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a ... 2019hondaa

The Honda Civic Sport hatchback, Si, and Type R share a common theme. They're overachievers, economy cars overcompensating for tepid expectations with unnatural talent. All three deliver bold responses and yearn to be more than simple commuters.
Yeah, that was an odd post. Reliability seems to be on a downward trajectory, but Hondas (specifically civic and accord) are only getting more fun to drive. In their class, they are probably only matched in that regard by Mazda's offerings.
And the Golf.

Topic Author
Barkingsparrow
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by Barkingsparrow » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:36 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:11 pm
Yeah, that was an odd post. Reliability seems to be on a downward trajectory, but Hondas (specifically civic and accord) are only getting more fun to drive. In their class, they are probably only matched in that regard by Mazda's offerings.
That was exactly my test-driving experience. I drove the Accord and the Camry each twice over 4 days. The Honda was just really fun to drive. The Camry a lot less so due to that increasingly infamous new 8-speed transmission. If I had any confidence that the Accord would last 10 years w/o extensive maintenance work, I would have one by now.

ShoogyBee
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by ShoogyBee » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:48 am

macarose wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:55 pm
This is Steven Lang. I am a fairly well known automotive journalist.

First off, you should look here for long-term reliability. I co-developed the study and it has been featured on the front page of Yahoo nearly a dozen times. We have professional mechanics inspect the vehicles instead of owners filling out surveys and our results are substantially different than Consumer Reports.

http://www.dashboard-light.com/

Second, nobody here can read your name. No one You and your wife will have preferences for one type of vehicle over another and that will pretty much be it.

Finally, the auto industry has experienced seven straight years of healthy sales and the glut of used cars out there right now is just unreal. Unless you're looking at buying the most popular vehicles with all the options, your bang for the buck is going to likely be getting that three year old car with around 30,000 to 40,000 miles for roughly half of the new car price.

I would look closely at an older Lexus GS. They are wonderful to drive and their long-term reliability is exceptional.

All the best!

Steven, I used to read your articles on TTAC and Yahoo Autos a few years ago. Are you still posting articles on other sites?

...

Starfish
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by Starfish » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:55 am

researcher wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:05 pm
Starfish wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:56 pm
Choosing between Corolla por Civic is like death by hanging or beheading. Still unpleasant.
To me these cars are very poor value in terms of experience offered vs price. Yes, they might be more reliable, so one will drive them for a long and torturous time.
Same goes for Camry and Accord.
Have you driven the current generation Civic or Accord?

They both made Car & Driver's 10Best list...
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a ... 2019hondaa

The Honda Civic Sport hatchback, Si, and Type R share a common theme. They're overachievers, economy cars overcompensating for tepid expectations with unnatural talent. All three deliver bold responses and yearn to be more than simple commuters.
I have not.
I owned a Civic for almost 10 years. Never again.
It's an honest and reliable car but there are cars on the market a lot more enjoyable and better quality for only 10-20% more.
I wouldn't put Type R in the same bag, it's a very different car. I would like to drive a Type R.

Starfish
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by Starfish » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:59 am

anoop wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:17 pm
Starfish wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:56 pm
JDave wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:42 am
Civic quality/reliability has declined the past 10 years.
Corolla quality/reliability has not.
Quality? :D
Choosing between Corolla por Civic is like death by hanging or beheading. Still unpleasant.
To me these cars are very poor value in terms of experience offered vs price. Yes, they might be more reliable, so one will drive them for a long and torturous time.
Same goes for Camry and Accord.
What do you think is a good value?
When I looked at cars a VW GTI was only 2-3k more than a Civic and it is a huge difference in everything.
Starting with the exterior design which is horrendous for most cars in Honda/Toyota family. Or minor things like how the door sounds when you close it.

stoptothink
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by stoptothink » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:52 am

Starfish wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:59 am
anoop wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:17 pm
Starfish wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:56 pm
JDave wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:42 am
Civic quality/reliability has declined the past 10 years.
Corolla quality/reliability has not.
Quality? :D
Choosing between Corolla por Civic is like death by hanging or beheading. Still unpleasant.
To me these cars are very poor value in terms of experience offered vs price. Yes, they might be more reliable, so one will drive them for a long and torturous time.
Same goes for Camry and Accord.
What do you think is a good value?
When I looked at cars a VW GTI was only 2-3k more than a Civic and it is a huge difference in everything.
Starting with the exterior design which is horrendous for most cars in Honda/Toyota family. Or minor things like how the door sounds when you close it.
A competitor for the GTI is the civic si. I've driven both, the GTI has more power but they have a similar fun factor and the civic bests it in several areas, specifically cost (slightly lower initial cost, lower projected maintenance, better MPG) and it has a nicer interior. I drive a jetta and am a VW fan, but the new Hondas are fun cars.
Last edited by stoptothink on Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tennisplyr
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by tennisplyr » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:05 am

Own a 2017 Civic Hatchback and generally like it. However, the air conditioning system needed to be replaced already. Watch out for gas dilution issues.
Those who move forward with a happy spirit will find that things always work out.

RobLyons
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by RobLyons » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:51 am

vasaver wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:25 pm
What about the Prius Prime? Online I see new ones are about 24.5k and they qualify for the 4.5k federal tax credit...maybe even state/local/utility as well. Great car for 20k.

Where have you found Prius Primes that cheap? MSRP is $27,350 and cheapest within 1,000 miles from me is $26.5k according to Autotrader.
Much different than a $18-$19k corolla/civic.


As for OP, both are good cars that should last you 15+ years without issue. Drive them both and see which you like better.
"Great parenting sets the foundation for a better world"

researcher
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by researcher » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:01 am

Starfish wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:55 am
I have not.
I owned a Civic for almost 10 years. Never again.
It's an honest and reliable car but there are cars on the market a lot more enjoyable and better quality for only 10-20% more.
I wouldn't put Type R in the same bag, it's a very different car. I would like to drive a Type R.
When I looked at cars a VW GTI was only 2-3k more than a Civic and it is a huge difference in everything.
Given that you haven't even driven the current generation Civic, I'm not sure how you can make such proclamations.
While the GTI is a fine vehicle, it definitely does not blow the Civic Si out of the water.
Your old, outdated experience with the 8th generation Civic is irrelevant when discussing the 10th generation car.

Car & Driver reviewed them head-to-head...
Slipping behind the wheel of the Si is like donning a mighty exoskeleton; it makes you feel invincible on the road, as if you have suddenly become a much better driver. Like its big brother, the Type R, its chassis is its greatest strength. The Si pips the GTI’s 0.95 g of lateral grip on the skidpad, where its lower stance and wider tires help it achieve 0.97 g. More significantly, the Si is 1 mph faster through our slalom, proving its quicker reflexes. Climbing into the upright chair of the Volkswagen feels as if you’re boarding one of the company’s Microbuses by comparison. The character of their handling follows the pattern. Where the Si corners flat, promising never-ending grip, the GTI leans, warning the driver to back off earlier than necessary.

Helo80
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by Helo80 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:22 pm

macarose wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:55 pm
Finally, the auto industry has experienced seven straight years of healthy sales and the glut of used cars out there right now is just unreal. Unless you're looking at buying the most popular vehicles with all the options, your bang for the buck is going to likely be getting that three year old car with around 30,000 to 40,000 miles for roughly half of the new car price.

One more thing --- the average age of a car on the road is increasing though... and many cars can hit 150k miles (or more) easily.

Since you're in the industry, do you have actual auction data from October 2019 for us to review on how you arrived at the roughly 50% figure?

Do you know what makers out there are leasing cars with a 50% or less RV on a 12k or heck, even 15k mile lease? (Note: I do not think it's fair to muddy the waters with anything from FCA, Mitsubishi, Italian, or South Korean).

You have to be really careful with what you say around crowds like BH.

Starfish
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by Starfish » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:59 pm

researcher wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:01 am
Starfish wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:55 am
I have not.
I owned a Civic for almost 10 years. Never again.
It's an honest and reliable car but there are cars on the market a lot more enjoyable and better quality for only 10-20% more.
I wouldn't put Type R in the same bag, it's a very different car. I would like to drive a Type R.
When I looked at cars a VW GTI was only 2-3k more than a Civic and it is a huge difference in everything.
Given that you haven't even driven the current generation Civic, I'm not sure how you can make such proclamations.
While the GTI is a fine vehicle, it definitely does not blow the Civic Si out of the water.
Your old, outdated experience with the 8th generation Civic is irrelevant when discussing the 10th generation car.

Car & Driver reviewed them head-to-head...
Slipping behind the wheel of the Si is like donning a mighty exoskeleton; it makes you feel invincible on the road, as if you have suddenly become a much better driver. Like its big brother, the Type R, its chassis is its greatest strength. The Si pips the GTI’s 0.95 g of lateral grip on the skidpad, where its lower stance and wider tires help it achieve 0.97 g. More significantly, the Si is 1 mph faster through our slalom, proving its quicker reflexes. Climbing into the upright chair of the Volkswagen feels as if you’re boarding one of the company’s Microbuses by comparison. The character of their handling follows the pattern. Where the Si corners flat, promising never-ending grip, the GTI leans, warning the driver to back off earlier than necessary.
First of all I looked at the base model, which was 19k at that time (probably cheaper now). At that time Si was not out yet. And I did get inside.
Where I agree with you is my "outdated" experience. Civic seems to be outdated pretty quick.
My Civic's reliability, while decent, was nothing to write home about. The transmission died at ~170k miles and took the clutch with it. The repair was more than the value of the car at that time. I know it's anecdotal, but it' my experience.

An interesting option, although not if you enjoy driving, is Prius Prime. You can commute only on electric. It's a practical car.

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6miths
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by 6miths » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:16 pm

Lifelong owner of Hondas and agree that quality has slipped but still better than many makes. Have only had one Toyota (a Sienna) and it was a lemon. Have tried a Hyundai Elantra GT as a kids' car - great bang for buck feature wise but build quality and drive-ability is nowhere near a Civic. Car I am just replacing (actually garaging because my son wants to buy it eventually) is a 2007 Acura CSX Type S (a tuned up Civic with 200 hp and a 6-speed manual) which is wonderful to drive even with 200k miles on it and has been trouble free. Newest car is a Subaru Impreza hatch. A much nicer ride than the Elantra but not as much fun as the CSX. Very nice feature set.
I don't think you can go wrong with a Civic, Corolla or 3. Just a matter of your preferences on ride, features and price.
'It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so!' Mark Twain

stuyguy
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by stuyguy » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:21 pm

RobLyons wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:51 am

Where have you found Prius Primes that cheap? MSRP is $27,350 and cheapest within 1,000 miles from me is $26.5k according to Autotrader.
Much different than a $18-$19k corolla/civic.
Check out the Prime pricing thread at PriusChat to see recent pricing https://priuschat.com/threads/prius-pri ... ad.174763/

CaptainSaver
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by CaptainSaver » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:17 am

I see the OP has focused his search down to Civic and Mazda 3. I will still provide my impression of our new Corolla and encourage potential buyers to actually test drive it.

My wife and I bought a 2020 Toyota Corolla XLE back in June. Her 10 year old commuting vehicle was having serious reliability issues. After dealing with problems related to reliability it became the #1 characteristic that we would focus on for the new car.

Despite the mantra around used being a much better deal we were swayed to buy new by the rapid advancement of safety features, especially since my wife was and is pregnant and we planned to be driving our little one around in the new vehicle.

Toyota really made the interior feel luxurious in the 2020 model year, especially in the XLE trim level. It has all the bells and whistles that we wanted. I don't think there are any 'options', it is all simply included. Acceleration and handling are more than adequate for my purposes, city driving and the occasional several hour drive to a different city. 'Fun to drive' is an interesting criteria, some of the most dangerous drivers I see on the road appear to be having too much 'fun' while piloting their multi-thousand pound ships around innocent bystanders. :shock:

Only negative I have experienced so far is lower than expected ground clearance. I now take steep driveways slowly at an angle.

The adaptive cruise control and lane keeping assist makes long drives on the highway much nicer. I have not tested the collision avoidance system as I don't want to look like an idiot if I misunderstand how it is supposed to work.

Interesting fact: Corollas are far and away the #1 selling vehicle on earth, over 40 million sold.

Helo80
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by Helo80 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:04 pm

CaptainSaver wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:17 am
... After dealing with problems related to reliability it became the #1 characteristic that we would focus on for the new car.

Despite the mantra around used being a much better deal we were swayed to buy new by the rapid advancement of safety features, especially since my wife was and is pregnant and we planned to be driving our little one around in the new vehicle.


My two cents is that you made an excellent choice as Corolla's are reliable vehicles, and it is ridiculous the improvements in safety newer models are making. The delta between a new and used 2-3 year old Corolla is not worth it. At the very least, Toyota (and Lexus) are FINALLY offering Android Auto and Apple CarPlay in their vehicles... (i still think it's incredible that I could spend $60k after taxes on a 2019 Lexus RX and not have Apple/Android car functionality.

Furthermore, every budget conscious consumer shopping for a used, compact car knows that Corolla is a reliable brand --- hence you do not save 50% off of "used" car with 30-40k miles like other posters who have not returned claim.

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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by surfstar » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:29 pm

another Prius Prime vote
Our NET price including taxes, fees, tags, forthcoming rebates and tax credits, etc: $18,729

We just purchased one. Wasn't on our radar until I stumbled across the fact that tax credits are still available (I assumed they were phased out or only applied to full EVs)
For detailed pricing breakdown:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=124638&p=4817576#p4817576

If buying a new commuter car, I can't see how anything else would exceed this value proposition.

jrmillions
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by jrmillions » Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:18 pm

Ask a mechanic which is the best car for reliability. Scotty Kilmer on YouTube talks about Honda’s Toyota’s Mazda’s etc. and he is entertaining

Topic Author
Barkingsparrow
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by Barkingsparrow » Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:29 am

jrmillions wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:18 pm
Ask a mechanic which is the best car for reliability. Scotty Kilmer on YouTube talks about Honda’s Toyota’s Mazda’s etc. and he is entertaining
Just watched a lot of his videos - and it makes feel like there's no really good new cars to buy. He does not like the 1.5T/engine, the CVT transmission or the new 8-speed transmission standard in the Camry as of 2018.

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Barkingsparrow
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by Barkingsparrow » Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:24 pm

I did a lot more research into the new 8-speed transmission used by the Camry, and I've seen some advice saying that the transmission has to be "trained". Has anyone heard of something like this?

Modern engines don't require the same process of seating metal components together as old engines did. They do however require break-in so to speak for computer learning. Many people do this improperly and worse, the car has some mileage prior to delivery. The absolute worst thing to do during this process is get on the highway and set the cruise. This is common on dealer locates where someone drives a car from one dealer to another.
Driving at one speed doesn't give the computer much to learn. There are also people in their day to day driving that don't use more than 15 to 20% throttle or drive very gentle because its new.

or the best learning, do not baby the car with lower than normal throttle application. Also do not drive at wide open throttle or slam the pedal. We don't want to be aggressive or drive like we stole it. Use slightly exaggerated throttle and roll on the pedal instead of slamming to where you want it. Use most of the throttle range such 0% to 75% in a slow rolling motion. Obviously not at every light but at least a few time such as highway on ramps and such. This gives the computer a wide range of input data. Very little is learned while cruising. Acceleration and deceleration produce the most data. You also want to spend time at as wide a range of speeds as possible from parking lots doing 10mph to 65 - 70mph.

anoop
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Re: Time for a new car - Corolla or Civic...

Post by anoop » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:44 pm

Barkingsparrow wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:24 pm
I did a lot more research into the new 8-speed transmission used by the Camry, and I've seen some advice saying that the transmission has to be "trained". Has anyone heard of something like this?

Modern engines don't require the same process of seating metal components together as old engines did. They do however require break-in so to speak for computer learning. Many people do this improperly and worse, the car has some mileage prior to delivery. The absolute worst thing to do during this process is get on the highway and set the cruise. This is common on dealer locates where someone drives a car from one dealer to another.
Driving at one speed doesn't give the computer much to learn. There are also people in their day to day driving that don't use more than 15 to 20% throttle or drive very gentle because its new.

or the best learning, do not baby the car with lower than normal throttle application. Also do not drive at wide open throttle or slam the pedal. We don't want to be aggressive or drive like we stole it. Use slightly exaggerated throttle and roll on the pedal instead of slamming to where you want it. Use most of the throttle range such 0% to 75% in a slow rolling motion. Obviously not at every light but at least a few time such as highway on ramps and such. This gives the computer a wide range of input data. Very little is learned while cruising. Acceleration and deceleration produce the most data. You also want to spend time at as wide a range of speeds as possible from parking lots doing 10mph to 65 - 70mph.
I have heard of this, but it's probably not as big of a deal. I'm almost certain, but short of 100%, that even if it did a bad job learning, it will be possible for the dealer to reset it before you take delivery so that the learning begins afresh.

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