Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

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IntangibleAssets
Posts: 65
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by IntangibleAssets » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:19 pm

Good Topic, lots of employee vs. manager perspectives

Tardiness and not coming in at your assigned scheduled work hours causes many more issues other than "maybe they aren't 'actually' working even if they come in on time", it can become insidious to their peers and create a poor work environment (i.e. why am I even working if so and so strolls in late).

If your job allows for the flexibility and is understood by all to be that way, then there are way less issues and likely not targeted at "you".

To the people taking offense as professionals and playing the 7:30:00 - 4:30:00 game...I would just say that stuff is likely to be noticed. I'd encourage you to think about how you would address the issues of tardiness while being equitable to all.

Work-life balance is super important, but the mutual respect must extend both ways. Of course some companies and managers regretfully could abuse the system.

FWIW - I get to work early, occasionally work at night, answer the occasional email late, prep for meetings late etc. and am salaried. It would not offend me to badge in/out or keep track of hours worked.

anywho, my 2 cents

btenny
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by btenny » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:46 pm

Many contracts for government work (of all kinds) require employers to track how many hours people work and what the cost is for that hour of work. So employers have to put in place some sort of system to prove they know who is working what hours and where so the billing is correct.

The issue is contracts are bid and negotiated for a hourly rate of $45 (for example) for senior engineers and $35 for lab technicians. The lab technician is hourly paid and fills out a time card. So the employer can prove the tech was paid for hours worked at salary and thus can prove the bid was correct and the billing is correct. The engineer case is more complicated if he/she does not fill out a time card. No one can prove how many hours the engineer worked for the salary paid. So what happens if the engineer is asked to work 50 hours per week for his salary. In that case the hourly rate is actually his/her salary over 50 hours versus over 40 as the bid was submitted. So more work gets done for less money and the company makes money on this spread. But the government wants to get billed and pay for the correct rate. So everyone is happy if time cards are filled out and turned in.

I did it for decades. When I first started to work in the 1960s we actually clocked in as you describe. Plus we filled out time cards (to the tenth of hour increments) for each thing we worked on each day. Time cards had to be up to date and correct daily even if you worked on the same thing all week. It was a PIA.

Then sometime in the 1980s (?? earlier) we did away with the time clocks and went to pure time cards that each person filled out including hourly people. That was better. And we also went to a system where any time worked beyond 45 hours per week was over time and had to be approved and authorized and billed. So no more "casual OT" for salary people.

So things change but not much.... Good Luck.

PS. I used engineers and technicians but the same rules apply for almost everyone including civil engineers and laborers and building engineers and framers and lawyers and paralegals. Everyone has to keep track of time worked and on what....
Last edited by btenny on Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

megabad
Posts: 1864
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by megabad » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:49 pm

searle7 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:35 am
Hello all! I work for small manufacturing company and starting next week they are requiring all salaried employees to clock in/clock out. They didn't state a reason why, though I believe its because some people come in late.
My first thought was whether it is even legal to do it, but after researching on google it seems to be okay. Obviously some people are upset and feel like we aren't being trusted to do our job.
Anyone else work for a company that has required the salaried to clock in? Anything I should do or watch out for? I can't imagine this will be good for our company morale
I have done this many years ago. It seems very common with many jobs (especially those in manufacturing). Wouldn't bother me one bit personally, but I don't require my employees to officially clock in because I don't think it serves a purpose. If there is an issue, I can use a myriad of better ways to determine exactly what a person was working on and where they were through technology. Hopefully the first method is always being a good manager and observing and just talking to employee directly about problem.

In other words, nothing alarming to me with clocking in, just severely outdated with modern technology. Unfortunately, in a litigious society, I do agree that corps must have ways of tracking employee work in some fashion whether it is the boss writing down notes with a pen and paper or electronic monitoring. Basically, I know when an employee is not doing his/her work, but I have to prove it with documentation if there is a situation. If you are doing your job, nothing to worry about.

At least at my company, when you are on company property and not in the bathroom, you shouldn't have an expectation of privacy. You are basically on camera and/or connected to the cloud 24/7 when there.

PatrickA5
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by PatrickA5 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:34 pm

When I worked at Big Blue, they came up with some time tracking software that we had to use. Supposedly, it was for the purpose of being able to track time spent on different projects. But, we had to clock in, clock out for lunch, etc. The big wig in charge wanted us to clock out when we went to the bathroom, but I refused. I told him that I consider the time I spent taking a dump to be part of whatever project I was working on before the urge. He also wanted us to clock out when getting a cup of coffee because it's always possible that we'd have to take extra time making a new pot or something. I hadn't clocked in anywhere for 30 years - since a teenager. One of the reasons I retired at 50.

stoptothink
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by stoptothink » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:36 pm

Bacchus01 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:15 pm
Thegame14 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:30 am
my boss is a freak about start time, not just have to be in the office by 9AM and If you are a minute last you are to text him, he wants you in your seating working at 9AM, not getting your coffee or talking to co-workers.

To me if you have nothing to hid it wouldn't bother me.
Why would you work there?
Have you read Thegame's stories about other places they have worked or interviewed? I get the impression that wherever they worked would magically (according to them) be the worst employer in the history of the world.

Bacchus01
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by Bacchus01 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:39 pm

searle7 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:55 am
masonstone wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:36 am
I require my salaried employees to clock in so that theyre not late. They get warnings when theyre late.
I find this absurd when the employees are working way more than 8 hours a day anyways. Do your employees leave right on time everyday also?

Why not just hire them on as hourly if you treat them as such?
Where does it say they are working more than 8 hours a day?

masonstone
Posts: 396
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:01 pm

Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by masonstone » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:47 am

Bacchus01 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:39 pm
searle7 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:55 am
masonstone wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:36 am
I require my salaried employees to clock in so that theyre not late. They get warnings when theyre late.
I find this absurd when the employees are working way more than 8 hours a day anyways. Do your employees leave right on time everyday also?

Why not just hire them on as hourly if you treat them as such?
Where does it say they are working more than 8 hours a day?
Also no one forces another person to work, they can always leave their job if they're unhappy or have a better opportunity.

DaftInvestor
Posts: 4609
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:11 am

Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by DaftInvestor » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:14 am

Usually its the slackers who are most upset about these things - I wouldn't think it would hurt morale once folks are used to it.
Management should certainly explain why the change.
Someone jumped to the conclusion that pay would be docked - if salaried that won't happen. The slackers will likely just be reprimanded/warned and multiple offenses could eventually lead to dismissal.

I was a salaried worker with a BSEE/MSEE degree and had to punch a timeclock for several years. I was working on government contracts and some of the contracts required such accounting - plain and simple. People also assume EXEMPT/Salaried workers never get paid overtime. The company just isn't obligated to pay overtime - on cost-plus government contracts I was getting paid overtime as an Exempt/Salaried employee (costs get past on to government with appropriate mark-up).

Knowing who is present/not-present and for how many hours can provide a lot of valuable data:
- Knowing who is in the building for emergency situations.
- Knowing who is present later than normal in the building for any theft or criminal activity
- If hours increase during a busy season it might explain why overhead costs have increased (electric/utility/etc. use) over said period.
- If HR meetings are booked - they have data to see when the majority are typically present.
- If some employees have complained because their peers haven't been pulling their weight because they "sneak in late every day" management/HR will have the data to rectify appropriately.
- If there is a RiF in the future - folks who aren't putting in time at the office can be used as another data-point in decision making.
- If folks seem burned out due to long hours causing low morale - overtime data is appropriately captured to justify hiring more employees.
- If there are "busy seasons" where folks routine work long hours - data can be used to determine how many part time temp employees are required.
etc.
Last edited by DaftInvestor on Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

fru-gal
Posts: 605
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:48 pm

Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by fru-gal » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:17 am

searle7 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:55 am
masonstone wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:36 am
I require my salaried employees to clock in so that theyre not late. They get warnings when theyre late.
I find this absurd when the employees are working way more than 8 hours a day anyways. Do your employees leave right on time everyday also?

Why not just hire them on as hourly if you treat them as such?
I worked in software engineering and I never had to clock in. Most people worked far more than forty hours a week, and tended to show up "late" then work well into the evening. Our CEO was great, but every once in a while because he would drive into the parking lot "on time" and it would be a vast wasteland, a memo came out about people coming in "on time" but it never changed anything.

I believe if I had to clock in, I would clock out on the dot.

LiterallyIronic
Posts: 1231
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:36 am

Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by LiterallyIronic » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:19 am

masonstone wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:50 pm
I'm in a healthcare setting when my employees are late the patients get upset.
In that kind of environment, it makes sense. There are appointments, shifts, etc that need to be met. In the software industry, that doesn't make sense. We have a release going out next week, so we need to finish up a few more loose ends by then - make sure everything is coded, reviewed, and tested - but people show up whenever they get here and leave whenever they're leaving (or they work from home sometimes).
DaftInvestor wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:14 am
I wouldn't think it would hurt morale once folks are used to it.

- If folks seem burned out due to long hours causing low morale - overtime data is appropriately captured to justify hiring more employees.
Those are some rose-colored glasses you have on.

oxothuk
Posts: 439
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:35 pm

Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by oxothuk » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:23 am

BoglePaul wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:33 pm
If fortunate enought to be in the salaried group...
After 40 years in the salaried group I consider myself fortunate to be in the hourly group for my part time job in semi-retirement.

I no longer resent the stupid meetings or compliance training sessions that are standard in modern corporations!
Last edited by oxothuk on Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

DaftInvestor
Posts: 4609
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:11 am

Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by DaftInvestor » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:25 am

LiterallyIronic wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:19 am
masonstone wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:50 pm
I'm in a healthcare setting when my employees are late the patients get upset.
In that kind of environment, it makes sense. There are appointments, shifts, etc that need to be met. In the software industry, that doesn't make sense. We have a release going out next week, so we need to finish up a few more loose ends by then - make sure everything is coded, reviewed, and tested - but people show up whenever they get here and leave whenever they're leaving (or they work from home sometimes).
DaftInvestor wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:14 am
I wouldn't think it would hurt morale once folks are used to it.

- If folks seem burned out due to long hours causing low morale - overtime data is appropriately captured to justify hiring more employees.
Those are some rose-colored glasses you have on.
I don't think OP is a software engineer. Software Engineers are sensitive folk :) OP works for a manufacturing company. If the company actually does manufacturing - folks not being present to run one-stage of product output causes back up (and employee downtime) for next stage. One person not being present can cause others to have to compensate for missing employee. The slackers lack of discipline causes the non-slackers to have to compensate (or miss their deadlines).
Time-clocking can benefit folks as much as hurt them - call it "rose-colored" glasses if you'd like - but if folks in a manufacturing company are present during their core working hours when they should be - I don't see why punching a time-clock should upset them.

alfaspider
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by alfaspider » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:32 am

DaftInvestor wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:14 am
Usually its the slackers who are most upset about these things - I wouldn't think it would hurt morale once folks are used to it.
Management should certainly explain why the change.
Someone jumped to the conclusion that pay would be docked - if salaried that won't happen. The slackers will likely just be reprimanded/warned and multiple offenses could eventually lead to dismissal.

I was a salaried worker with a BSEE/MSEE degree and had to punch a timeclock for several years. I was working on government contracts and some of the contracts required such accounting - plain and simple. People also assume EXEMPT/Salaried workers never get paid overtime. The company just isn't obligated to pay overtime - on cost-plus government contracts I was getting paid overtime as an Exempt/Salaried employee (costs get past on to government with appropriate mark-up).

Knowing who is present/not-present and for how many hours can provide a lot of valuable data:
- Knowing who is in the building for emergency situations.
- Knowing who is present later than normal in the building for any theft or criminal activity
- If hours increase during a busy season it might explain why overhead costs have increased (electric/utility/etc. use) over said period.
- If HR meetings are booked - they have data to see when the majority are typically present.
- If some employees have complained because their peers haven't been pulling their weight because they "sneak in late every day" management/HR will have the data to rectify appropriately.
- If there is a RiF in the future - folks who aren't putting in time at the office can be used as another data-point in decision making.
- If folks seem burned out due to long hours causing low morale - overtime data is appropriately captured to justify hiring more employees.
- If there are "busy seasons" where folks routine work long hours - data can be used to determine how many part time temp employees are required.
etc.
Poppycock. I would argue the best, most productive employees are the ones most likely to resent being treated like children being late for the school bell.

I used to have to bill my time in 6 minute increments as a private practice lawyer. It required 4-5 hours of additional work every week for record keeping and finding appropriate time codes. While such practices are a necessary evil in a law firm, they are not so necessary in a corporation. Adding additional record keeping requirements imposes a cost, both in terms of productivity and worker retention. Managers should take a lesson from physics: one cannot perform observations without altering the thing one is observing. The alteration may not be desirable.

Additionally: I think each one of your points is refutable:

1) In a true emergency, it is impossible to know who is in or out. Nobody is going to clock out if the building is on fire (nor should they).
2) If someone were planning on committing a crime, they would clock out before leaving.
3) Perhaps, but most buildings shut down HAVAC at a fixed time regardless.
4) Core business hours are plenty sufficient for this.
5) Being physically present in the office has, at best, a weak correlation between actual productivity. Some of the least productive employees I've worked with also were present in the office for the longest hours.
6) Again, outputs are a far better measure than physical presence.
7) If you can't figure out there is low morale due to overwork without a timesheet, you have much bigger problems as management
8) Your employees can tell you if they need more help much more effectively than a time sheet. A good manager knows the workload of their reports.

Of course there are some roles where it is vital that a person be physically present at an exact appointed time. But for salaried professional positions, that's very rarely the case.

MathIsMyWayr
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Location: CA

Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by MathIsMyWayr » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:42 am

Many companies have side doors for employee entrance. Doors are unlocked by having employee badges read. I am quite certain that all the door access activities are saved.

User avatar
djpeteski
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by djpeteski » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:52 am

destinationnc wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:45 am
This is silly. Just because you're at work doesn't mean you're working....
The inverse is also true.

Just because you are not at work, doesn't mean your're not working.

oldfatguy
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by oldfatguy » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:54 am

oxothuk wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:23 am
BoglePaul wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:33 pm
If fortunate enought to be in the salaried group...
After 40 years in the salaried group I consider myself fortunate to be in the hourly group for my part time job in semi-retirement.
I agree. I've never considered it "fortunate" or beneficial to be salaried. It simply allows my employer(s) to make me work more without any additional compensation.

Valuethinker
Posts: 38217
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by Valuethinker » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:58 am

searle7 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:35 am
Hello all! I work for small manufacturing company and starting next week they are requiring all salaried employees to clock in/clock out. They didn't state a reason why, though I believe its because some people come in late.
My first thought was whether it is even legal to do it, but after researching on google it seems to be okay. Obviously some people are upset and feel like we aren't being trusted to do our job.
Anyone else work for a company that has required the salaried to clock in? Anything I should do or watch out for? I can't imagine this will be good for our company morale
Way back when I worked on CICS & COBOL in an insurance company in the 1980s, they did that.

Eventually they found they abolished it. Employees were rigorously clocking their time, and only working the 37.5 hours a week. It was actually costing them.

When they took it away, people started working the alloted hours + time on the shoulders (getting set up, clearing up, etc.).

If you treat people like children, they will behave like children. The converse problem though is that there will always be outliers who take the mick - exploit the slackness in the system.

Look at Amazon. Employee surveillance and evaluation of performance against those metrics is the trend of our times ...

DaftInvestor
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Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:11 am

Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by DaftInvestor » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:59 am

alfaspider wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:32 am
DaftInvestor wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:14 am
Usually its the slackers who are most upset about these things - I wouldn't think it would hurt morale once folks are used to it.
Management should certainly explain why the change.
Someone jumped to the conclusion that pay would be docked - if salaried that won't happen. The slackers will likely just be reprimanded/warned and multiple offenses could eventually lead to dismissal.

I was a salaried worker with a BSEE/MSEE degree and had to punch a timeclock for several years. I was working on government contracts and some of the contracts required such accounting - plain and simple. People also assume EXEMPT/Salaried workers never get paid overtime. The company just isn't obligated to pay overtime - on cost-plus government contracts I was getting paid overtime as an Exempt/Salaried employee (costs get past on to government with appropriate mark-up).

Knowing who is present/not-present and for how many hours can provide a lot of valuable data:
- Knowing who is in the building for emergency situations.
- Knowing who is present later than normal in the building for any theft or criminal activity
- If hours increase during a busy season it might explain why overhead costs have increased (electric/utility/etc. use) over said period.
- If HR meetings are booked - they have data to see when the majority are typically present.
- If some employees have complained because their peers haven't been pulling their weight because they "sneak in late every day" management/HR will have the data to rectify appropriately.
- If there is a RiF in the future - folks who aren't putting in time at the office can be used as another data-point in decision making.
- If folks seem burned out due to long hours causing low morale - overtime data is appropriately captured to justify hiring more employees.
- If there are "busy seasons" where folks routine work long hours - data can be used to determine how many part time temp employees are required.
etc.
Poppycock. I would argue the best, most productive employees are the ones most likely to resent being treated like children being late for the school bell.

I used to have to bill my time in 6 minute increments as a private practice lawyer. It required 4-5 hours of additional work every week for record keeping and finding appropriate time codes. While such practices are a necessary evil in a law firm, they are not so necessary in a corporation. Adding additional record keeping requirements imposes a cost, both in terms of productivity and worker retention. Managers should take a lesson from physics: one cannot perform observations without altering the thing one is observing. The alteration may not be desirable.

Additionally: I think each one of your points is refutable:

1) In a true emergency, it is impossible to know who is in or out. Nobody is going to clock out if the building is on fire (nor should they).
2) If someone were planning on committing a crime, they would clock out before leaving.
3) Perhaps, but most buildings shut down HAVAC at a fixed time regardless.
4) Core business hours are plenty sufficient for this.
5) Being physically present in the office has, at best, a weak correlation between actual productivity. Some of the least productive employees I've worked with also were present in the office for the longest hours.
6) Again, outputs are a far better measure than physical presence.
7) If you can't figure out there is low morale due to overwork without a timesheet, you have much bigger problems as management
8) Your employees can tell you if they need more help much more effectively than a time sheet. A good manager knows the workload of their reports.

Of course there are some roles where it is vital that a person be physically present at an exact appointed time. But for salaried professional positions, that's very rarely the case.
Sure - you can refute any of my points- but some have indeed been used by companies I've worked for successfully.

The "management is surely out to get us" syndrome always runs rampant in these questions on Bogleheads.

barnaclebob
Posts: 3704
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by barnaclebob » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:59 am

Bacchus01 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:15 pm
Thegame14 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:30 am
my boss is a freak about start time, not just have to be in the office by 9AM and If you are a minute last you are to text him, he wants you in your seating working at 9AM, not getting your coffee or talking to co-workers.

To me if you have nothing to hid it wouldn't bother me.
Why would you work there?
Serf mentality.

smitcat
Posts: 3580
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by smitcat » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:00 am

oldfatguy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:54 am
oxothuk wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:23 am
BoglePaul wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:33 pm
If fortunate enought to be in the salaried group...
After 40 years in the salaried group I consider myself fortunate to be in the hourly group for my part time job in semi-retirement.
I agree. I've never considered it "fortunate" or beneficial to be salaried. It simply allows my employer(s) to make me work more without any additional compensation.
We all have the ability to do whatever we want - thankfully the choice is ours to make.

Valuethinker
Posts: 38217
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by Valuethinker » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:01 am

DaftInvestor wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:25 am
LiterallyIronic wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:19 am
masonstone wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:50 pm
I'm in a healthcare setting when my employees are late the patients get upset.
In that kind of environment, it makes sense. There are appointments, shifts, etc that need to be met. In the software industry, that doesn't make sense. We have a release going out next week, so we need to finish up a few more loose ends by then - make sure everything is coded, reviewed, and tested - but people show up whenever they get here and leave whenever they're leaving (or they work from home sometimes).
DaftInvestor wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:14 am
I wouldn't think it would hurt morale once folks are used to it.

- If folks seem burned out due to long hours causing low morale - overtime data is appropriately captured to justify hiring more employees.
Those are some rose-colored glasses you have on.
I don't think OP is a software engineer. Software Engineers are sensitive folk :) OP works for a manufacturing company. If the company actually does manufacturing - folks not being present to run one-stage of product output causes back up (and employee downtime) for next stage. One person not being present can cause others to have to compensate for missing employee. The slackers lack of discipline causes the non-slackers to have to compensate (or miss their deadlines).
Time-clocking can benefit folks as much as hurt them - call it "rose-colored" glasses if you'd like - but if folks in a manufacturing company are present during their core working hours when they should be - I don't see why punching a time-clock should upset them.
That's key. The underlined bit. In manufacturing, there's a process and it has to be followed -- your work has a time impact on that. Like restaurants.

Mostly the problem with rigorously enforced working hours is around commuting time (for office workers). It makes a big difference if one has to commute when the rest of the world does - at least to those of us who live in big cities.

Valuethinker
Posts: 38217
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by Valuethinker » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:07 am

alfaspider wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:32 am


1) In a true emergency, it is impossible to know who is in or out. Nobody is going to clock out if the building is on fire (nor should they).
In the UK, companies are legally required to have that record, for fire and other safety reasons. Also of visitors.

The firefighters and Emergency Services need to know whether there are likely to be people still in the building - we are asking people (and dogs) to go into potentially very dangerous environments. You cannot put those lives at risk without good reason.

2) If someone were planning on committing a crime, they would clock out before leaving.
3) Perhaps, but most buildings shut down HAVAC at a fixed time regardless.
4) Core business hours are plenty sufficient for this.
5) Being physically present in the office has, at best, a weak correlation between actual productivity. Some of the least productive employees I've worked with also were present in the office for the longest hours.
6) Again, outputs are a far better measure than physical presence.
7) If you can't figure out there is low morale due to overwork without a timesheet, you have much bigger problems as management
8) Your employees can tell you if they need more help much more effectively than a time sheet. A good manager knows the workload of their reports.

Of course there are some roles where it is vital that a person be physically present at an exact appointed time. But for salaried professional positions, that's very rarely the case.
All of the above is true to some extent. Nonetheless there are companies where time is tracked that are high morale, and ones where it is not where it is low morale.

Financial institutions people just work crazy hours. If not at work answering their emails 7 days a week. One of my colleagues does fantastic work after 9 pm when her young children are in bed.

A friend of mine worked for McKinsey. His discipline, learned there, was "what did I do today that created value for my employer?" It's not a bad mindset to have. I have survived the axe once or twice because I hove to that rule (and my boss knew that I was so doing).

oldfatguy
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by oldfatguy » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:08 am

smitcat wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:00 am
oldfatguy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:54 am
oxothuk wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:23 am
BoglePaul wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:33 pm
If fortunate enought to be in the salaried group...
After 40 years in the salaried group I consider myself fortunate to be in the hourly group for my part time job in semi-retirement.
I agree. I've never considered it "fortunate" or beneficial to be salaried. It simply allows my employer(s) to make me work more without any additional compensation.
We all have the ability to do whatever we want - thankfully the choice is ours to make.
Not at all. I cannot choose to do the type of work I do and not be salaried/exempt. I also cannot be an astronaut, an airline pilot, an FBI agent, a jockey, an electrician, and many other things.

smitcat
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by smitcat » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:21 am

oldfatguy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:08 am
smitcat wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:00 am
oldfatguy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:54 am
oxothuk wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:23 am
BoglePaul wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:33 pm
If fortunate enought to be in the salaried group...
After 40 years in the salaried group I consider myself fortunate to be in the hourly group for my part time job in semi-retirement.
I agree. I've never considered it "fortunate" or beneficial to be salaried. It simply allows my employer(s) to make me work more without any additional compensation.
We all have the ability to do whatever we want - thankfully the choice is ours to make.
Not at all. I cannot choose to do the type of work I do and not be salaried/exempt. I also cannot be an astronaut, an airline pilot, an FBI agent, a jockey, an electrician, and many other things.
I guess that is unfortunate then - we have always had a choice as to what to do in life and work.

oldfatguy
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by oldfatguy » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:30 am

smitcat wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:21 am

I guess that is unfortunate then - we have always had a choice as to what to do in life and work.
You could choose to perform work that is exempt from overtime regulations, but still be non-exempt? That is puzzling.

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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by stoptothink » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:31 am

oldfatguy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:08 am
smitcat wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:00 am
oldfatguy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:54 am
oxothuk wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:23 am
BoglePaul wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:33 pm
If fortunate enought to be in the salaried group...
After 40 years in the salaried group I consider myself fortunate to be in the hourly group for my part time job in semi-retirement.
I agree. I've never considered it "fortunate" or beneficial to be salaried. It simply allows my employer(s) to make me work more without any additional compensation.
We all have the ability to do whatever we want - thankfully the choice is ours to make.
Not at all. I cannot choose to do the type of work I do and not be salaried/exempt. I also cannot be an astronaut, an airline pilot, an FBI agent, a jockey, an electrician, and many other things.
Huh? You can choose to work somewhere else, including applying to be a pilot, FBI agent, jockey, electrician, etc. Nobody is stopping you from trying. It's on you if chances of gaining gainful employment in endeavors you are not qualified for is slim.

FWIW, all my staff is salaried and I provide my employees a ton of autonomy. Some come in before 7am, others not until 10. Some are still in school so have totally random hours. And three of my top employees work totally remotely...while they are in medical school. There is no way they work for me 40hrs/week, that would be physically impossible, but they produce. I don't care when, where, or how long it takes you to take care of your responsibilities, just get it done and our relationship is great. This has worked fantastically with some employees and terribly with others. I just had to take 2 employees to HR last week and now they are required to text me when they have arrived and when they have left (they could lie, but I also have ways of confirming). I let another employee go recently because she was just not showing up and not letting me know, but more importantly, she was missing deadlines.

Totally depends on the environment, type of work, and the employees. With my top employees, I never have to be concerned about it. With others, it is a huge issue and "clocking in" is totally necessary. I wouldn't be insulted if an employer asked me to clock in as a salaried employee (and yes, I have had to do it), but if I was, I'd just keep my mouth shut and explore other opportunities.

alfaspider
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by alfaspider » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:33 am

DaftInvestor wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:59 am
alfaspider wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:32 am
DaftInvestor wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:14 am
Usually its the slackers who are most upset about these things - I wouldn't think it would hurt morale once folks are used to it.
Management should certainly explain why the change.
Someone jumped to the conclusion that pay would be docked - if salaried that won't happen. The slackers will likely just be reprimanded/warned and multiple offenses could eventually lead to dismissal.

I was a salaried worker with a BSEE/MSEE degree and had to punch a timeclock for several years. I was working on government contracts and some of the contracts required such accounting - plain and simple. People also assume EXEMPT/Salaried workers never get paid overtime. The company just isn't obligated to pay overtime - on cost-plus government contracts I was getting paid overtime as an Exempt/Salaried employee (costs get past on to government with appropriate mark-up).

Knowing who is present/not-present and for how many hours can provide a lot of valuable data:
- Knowing who is in the building for emergency situations.
- Knowing who is present later than normal in the building for any theft or criminal activity
- If hours increase during a busy season it might explain why overhead costs have increased (electric/utility/etc. use) over said period.
- If HR meetings are booked - they have data to see when the majority are typically present.
- If some employees have complained because their peers haven't been pulling their weight because they "sneak in late every day" management/HR will have the data to rectify appropriately.
- If there is a RiF in the future - folks who aren't putting in time at the office can be used as another data-point in decision making.
- If folks seem burned out due to long hours causing low morale - overtime data is appropriately captured to justify hiring more employees.
- If there are "busy seasons" where folks routine work long hours - data can be used to determine how many part time temp employees are required.
etc.
Poppycock. I would argue the best, most productive employees are the ones most likely to resent being treated like children being late for the school bell.

I used to have to bill my time in 6 minute increments as a private practice lawyer. It required 4-5 hours of additional work every week for record keeping and finding appropriate time codes. While such practices are a necessary evil in a law firm, they are not so necessary in a corporation. Adding additional record keeping requirements imposes a cost, both in terms of productivity and worker retention. Managers should take a lesson from physics: one cannot perform observations without altering the thing one is observing. The alteration may not be desirable.

Additionally: I think each one of your points is refutable:

1) In a true emergency, it is impossible to know who is in or out. Nobody is going to clock out if the building is on fire (nor should they).
2) If someone were planning on committing a crime, they would clock out before leaving.
3) Perhaps, but most buildings shut down HAVAC at a fixed time regardless.
4) Core business hours are plenty sufficient for this.
5) Being physically present in the office has, at best, a weak correlation between actual productivity. Some of the least productive employees I've worked with also were present in the office for the longest hours.
6) Again, outputs are a far better measure than physical presence.
7) If you can't figure out there is low morale due to overwork without a timesheet, you have much bigger problems as management
8) Your employees can tell you if they need more help much more effectively than a time sheet. A good manager knows the workload of their reports.

Of course there are some roles where it is vital that a person be physically present at an exact appointed time. But for salaried professional positions, that's very rarely the case.
Sure - you can refute any of my points- but some have indeed been used by companies I've worked for successfully.

The "management is surely out to get us" syndrome always runs rampant in these questions on Bogleheads.
To be clear, I am not anti management at all, and I do not believe management is out to get anyone. They are in the business of making the company money, not oppressing employees.

My key point is that it makes no sense to measure time inputs. An employee who works 10 hours a week but produces rockstar results through unusual creativity or extreme efficiency is much more valuable than an employee who is present 80 hours a week and producing nothing of value. Those examples may be a bit extreme, but I've seen both types. My company once let go of the person who was working the longest hours in my department. But they were working long hours because they were struggling at the job and produced poor results that had to be redone.

For the record, my current company does not care when we come or go so long as the output is good, so I am not complaining about any personal situation. We do have building access badges which leave a record of when we come and go, but it's not the sort of thing individual managers have access to absent a special request to building security. If it were used against an employee it would simply be as a record of things managers already know.

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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by oldfatguy » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:36 am

stoptothink wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:31 am

Huh? You can choose to work somewhere else, including applying to be a pilot, FBI agent, jockey, electrician, etc. Nobody is stopping you from trying. It's on you if chances of gaining gainful employment in endeavors you are not qualified for is slim.
I could choose to work somewhere else, but the type of work I do will still be classified as exempt. And no, I cannot do the other things listed because I am disqualified by physical/genetic traits.

More generally, the notion that everyone (or even most people) can choose to do whatever that want is logically absurd. What if every person in the US wanted to be a garbage collector, or a nurse, or anything else. It wouldn't be possible. Choice is only one factor among many in career (and life) development.
Last edited by oldfatguy on Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

alfaspider
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by alfaspider » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:37 am

Valuethinker wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:07 am
alfaspider wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:32 am


1) In a true emergency, it is impossible to know who is in or out. Nobody is going to clock out if the building is on fire (nor should they).
In the UK, companies are legally required to have that record, for fire and other safety reasons. Also of visitors.

The firefighters and Emergency Services need to know whether there are likely to be people still in the building - we are asking people (and dogs) to go into potentially very dangerous environments. You cannot put those lives at risk without good reason.
I think we are talking about two different things here. What I am against is a system that requires an employee to go into a system and record there working hours, coupled with bosses who "discipline" employees based on such a system. I have no issues with a building access badge that records entry/exits for security. However, in an emergency, no such system is a reliable indicator of who is in the building. They system may not be functional, or multiple people may leave on a single badge, or people may "jump the turnstiles." For an accurate emergency tally, there needs to be a manual account and designated rally points according to a disaster management plan.

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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by stoptothink » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:42 am

oldfatguy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:36 am
stoptothink wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:31 am

Huh? You can choose to work somewhere else, including applying to be a pilot, FBI agent, jockey, electrician, etc. Nobody is stopping you from trying. It's on you if chances of gaining gainful employment in endeavors you are not qualified for is slim.
I could choose to work somewhere else, but the type of work I do will still be classified as exempt. And no, I cannot do the other things listed because I am disqualified by physical/genetic traits.

More generally, the notion that everyone (or even most people) can choose to do whatever that want is logically absurd. What if every person in the US wanted to be a garbage collector, or a nurse, or anything else. It wouldn't be possible. Choice is only one factor among many in career (and life) development.
That's a really sad outlook.

oldfatguy
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by oldfatguy » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:46 am

stoptothink wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:42 am
oldfatguy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:36 am
stoptothink wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:31 am

Huh? You can choose to work somewhere else, including applying to be a pilot, FBI agent, jockey, electrician, etc. Nobody is stopping you from trying. It's on you if chances of gaining gainful employment in endeavors you are not qualified for is slim.
I could choose to work somewhere else, but the type of work I do will still be classified as exempt. And no, I cannot do the other things listed because I am disqualified by physical/genetic traits.

More generally, the notion that everyone (or even most people) can choose to do whatever that want is logically absurd. What if every person in the US wanted to be a garbage collector, or a nurse, or anything else. It wouldn't be possible. Choice is only one factor among many in career (and life) development.
That's a really sad outlook.
It doesn't make me sad at all. A person's path in life is strongly influenced by genetics, family of origin, social environment, chance, psychological/personality factors, economic status, health, and many, many other things - including the choices they make along the way.

stoptothink
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by stoptothink » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:53 am

oldfatguy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:46 am
stoptothink wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:42 am
oldfatguy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:36 am
stoptothink wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:31 am

Huh? You can choose to work somewhere else, including applying to be a pilot, FBI agent, jockey, electrician, etc. Nobody is stopping you from trying. It's on you if chances of gaining gainful employment in endeavors you are not qualified for is slim.
I could choose to work somewhere else, but the type of work I do will still be classified as exempt. And no, I cannot do the other things listed because I am disqualified by physical/genetic traits.

More generally, the notion that everyone (or even most people) can choose to do whatever that want is logically absurd. What if every person in the US wanted to be a garbage collector, or a nurse, or anything else. It wouldn't be possible. Choice is only one factor among many in career (and life) development.
That's a really sad outlook.
It doesn't make me sad at all. A person's path in life is strongly influenced by genetics, family of origin, social environment, chance, psychological/personality factors, economic status, health, and many, many other things - including the choices they make along the way.
Influenced, yes. Determined, no. Not in this country at this point in time. I could detail countless examples of this in my own life, but that would be a (not so) humble brag.

You stating that you can not be a pilot or a jockey or an FBI agent simply isn't true. Somebody else's chances may be better, but you are not forced to do anything you don't want to.

Nowizard
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by Nowizard » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:00 am

One factor is increased technology and remote working. It appears ideal and works well for those who are disciplined. Many are not. Managers would not be needed if workers did not need managing, at least on occasion. The employer sets the rules as long as they are legal. Some decisions will be wise, some will not, some will be subject to review if comments/complaints are received, etc. Everyone has a right to their opinion, but not to their definition of what constitutes fact. That is the province of the employer in this instance. Individual rights and desires are sometimes subjugated to those of a larger group whether by thoughtful decision or otherwise. I suspect many struggling, hourly employees who have always checked in would have little sympathy for the "We always have choices" approach.

Tim
Last edited by Nowizard on Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by mariezzz » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:01 am

searle7 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:35 am
Hello all! I work for small manufacturing company and starting next week they are requiring all salaried employees to clock in/clock out. They didn't state a reason why, though I believe its because some people come in late.
My first thought was whether it is even legal to do it, but after researching on google it seems to be okay. Obviously some people are upset and feel like we aren't being trusted to do our job.
Anyone else work for a company that has required the salaried to clock in? Anything I should do or watch out for? I can't imagine this will be good for our company morale
It may be legal, but it may not be the work environment you want. The economy is strong. Now's a good time to start looking for another job, if other pluses of your current job don't offset this. I wouldn't put up with that, not now. I might have 10-20 years ago.

HR in small companies is often quite bad. HR in larger corporations/organizations can also be quite incompetent, and do things that you'd think they should realize is bad practice.

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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by mariezzz » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:07 am

searle7 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:55 am
masonstone wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:36 am
I require my salaried employees to clock in so that theyre not late. They get warnings when theyre late.
I find this absurd when the employees are working way more than 8 hours a day anyways. Do your employees leave right on time everyday also?

Why not just hire them on as hourly if you treat them as such?
Absolutely agree with this comment. I want flexibility in an employer, and I give my employer the same flexibility. As a result, I give the employer far more than 40 hours of work - I need a job where I'm invested in my work and committed. I could never work a job where I was just willing to work 40 hours a week, and if an employer required me to clock in & out, I'd feel that it was really stupid of me to work >40 hours/week, given that the employer was treating me like a child. Most jobs do not have conditions that make it imperative that exempt employees clock in & out. Employers who require such a thing are going to find it difficult to attract the best employees.

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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by smitcat » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 am

oldfatguy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:30 am
smitcat wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:21 am

I guess that is unfortunate then - we have always had a choice as to what to do in life and work.
You could choose to perform work that is exempt from overtime regulations, but still be non-exempt? That is puzzling.
I can always choose to change my job - and I have at times.

oldfatguy
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by oldfatguy » Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:15 pm

smitcat wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 am
oldfatguy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:30 am
smitcat wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:21 am

I guess that is unfortunate then - we have always had a choice as to what to do in life and work.
You could choose to perform work that is exempt from overtime regulations, but still be non-exempt? That is puzzling.
I can always choose to change my job - and I have at times.
But you cannot choose to do work that is exempt and still be non-exempt.

oldfatguy
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by oldfatguy » Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:22 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:53 am

You stating that you can not be a pilot or a jockey or an FBI agent simply isn't true. Somebody else's chances may be better, but you are not forced to do anything you don't want to.
It is absolutely true that I cannot do the things listed. As I mentioned before, there are physical/genetic factors that prevent it.

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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by smitcat » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:02 pm

oldfatguy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:15 pm
smitcat wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 am
oldfatguy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:30 am
smitcat wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:21 am

I guess that is unfortunate then - we have always had a choice as to what to do in life and work.
You could choose to perform work that is exempt from overtime regulations, but still be non-exempt? That is puzzling.
I can always choose to change my job - and I have at times.
But you cannot choose to do work that is exempt and still be non-exempt.
Of course I can - what job/career/tasks are we talking about here?

smitcat
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by smitcat » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:04 pm

oldfatguy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:22 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:53 am

You stating that you can not be a pilot or a jockey or an FBI agent simply isn't true. Somebody else's chances may be better, but you are not forced to do anything you don't want to.
It is absolutely true that I cannot do the things listed. As I mentioned before, there are physical/genetic factors that prevent it.
I would suggest looking at all the things you can do rather than listing the things you cannot do.
The list is likely very long … what you do about it is another thing.

oldfatguy
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by oldfatguy » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:09 pm

smitcat wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:02 pm
oldfatguy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:15 pm
smitcat wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 am
oldfatguy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:30 am
smitcat wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:21 am

I guess that is unfortunate then - we have always had a choice as to what to do in life and work.
You could choose to perform work that is exempt from overtime regulations, but still be non-exempt? That is puzzling.
I can always choose to change my job - and I have at times.
But you cannot choose to do work that is exempt and still be non-exempt.
Of course I can - what job/career/tasks are we talking about here?
"The job duties of the traditional "learned professions" are exempt. These include lawyers, doctors, dentists, teachers, architects, clergy. Also included are registered nurses (but not LPNs), accountants (but not bookkeepers), engineers (who have engineering degrees or the equivalent and perform work of the sort usually performed by licensed professional engineers), actuaries, scientists (but not technicians), pharmacists, and other employees who perform work requiring "advanced knowledge" similar to that historically associated with the traditional learned professions.

Professionally exempt work means work which is predominantly intellectual, requires specialized education, and involves the exercise of discretion and judgment. Professionally exempt workers must have education beyond high school, and usually beyond college, in fields that are distinguished from (more "academic" than) the mechanical arts or skilled trades. Advanced degrees are the most common measure of this, but are not absolutely necessary if an employee has attained a similar level of advanced education through other means (and perform essentially the same kind of work as similar employees who do have advanced degrees)."

https://www.flsa.com/coverage.html

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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by LadyGeek » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:32 pm

I removed several off-topic posts. This thread has run its course and is locked (topic exhausted, contentious). See: Locked Topics
Moderators or site admins may lock a topic (set it so no more replies may be added) when a violation of posting policy has occurred. Occasionally, even if there are no overt violations of posting policy, a topic (or thread) will reach a point where the information content of the discussion has been essentially exhausted and further replies are much more likely to cause distress to the community than add anything of value.
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Re: Company requiring salaried employees to clock in?

Post by LadyGeek » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:11 pm

A member has requested this information be added to the thread:
I think one person talked about this, but there are many professions that bill by the hour. Typically a time keeping system is used to log hours, but a time clock could also be.

Also, in government contracting, time keeping, even of salaried employees is very important because:

1. It is used to determine what jobs/clients were worked on and what needs to be billed.
2. When bidding and billing jobs government contractors have documented and audited overhead rates. For every dollar of direct labor cost there may be $1.00 to $2.00 of overhead and administrative cost. For those ratios to be correct, the salaried employee should log all hours worked, such that the company can allocated what portion of labor is overhead and what portion is directly job related.

A time clock is not necessarily needed for that, a time keeping system will suffice, but a time clock could help enforce the accuracy of the time keeping. If the DCAA finds serious timekeeping issues in an audit a company could put their whole federal business at risk. It is no small matter.

What I'm describing above is an "all hours worked" method for salaried time keeping. There are other methods but all hours worked is preferred. Getting salaried people to accurately log all hours is often difficult because of perceptions, like some articulated in this thread.
(Thread remains locked.)
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