Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

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ElmoHongZito
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Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by ElmoHongZito » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:17 pm

I have no idea where I can get the answer to this question so I hope some bogleheads could chime in.

I would like to know if it is possible to purchase a Pre-owned Porsche 911 (not as a daily driver) and sell it a few years later without losing your butt.

I have always dreamed of owning one and would really like to own one for a few years but only if I know I can get most of my cash back out of it when I go to resell. Or at least know on the front end how much I will be losing on the resell and how I can perhaps limit that loss.

Thoughts? Would really like to hear what everyone’s insight is.

Aaldarius
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by Aaldarius » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:50 pm

I always want to own a 911 too but why own one to re-sell it quickly? At that point you're better off just going to a luxury rental (if there's one near you) whenever you are itching to drive one.

Or maybe even just lease a newer model but I doubt that would be a Boglehead move.

I just don't think you should go into buying a Porsche feeling "how much am I going to lose off this car"

It's a superb car, you should be celebrating the ability to have the flexibility of funds to get one.

Get it, enjoy it and smile as you zoom down the roads. 8-)

dknightd
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by dknightd » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:57 pm

You should plan to loose 50%. You might not, but that is what I'd plan on.

Miguelito
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by Miguelito » Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:09 pm

Porsche sports cars are surprisingly reliable. If you buy one a few years old, take care of it and not put many miles, resale should be quite respectable, making overall ownership costs quite reasonable. But if you plan to go to the dealer for everything, it’s going to cost you.

BruDude
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by BruDude » Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:10 pm

Yes. Know the market, know the desirable options and color combos, find a great deal. I bought a 2014 911S from Carmax knowing they underpriced it, sold it a month later for $20k profit after taxes. I bought a 2012 911S (991 generation too) as a replacement, drove it two years, sold it for $8k more than I paid. The 911 used car market has some interesting dynamics given the sheer number of option combinations and that your average buyer has significant disposable income, so if you have a desirable combo that can't be found easily they will hold value extremely well. Desirable 997 generation cars are appreciating in value compared to a few years ago. 993 generation cars have skyrocketed in value and can sell for well over original MSRP these days.

I just bought a 2014 GT3 last week which I've been dreaming about since I was a teenager. Worth every penny. Got a smokin deal on it and expect to be able to sell it for close to what I paid for it in a few years, though it's such an amazing car that I don't know if I can even bring myself to sell it unless upgrading to the 991.2 generation or to a GT3RS. For what it's worth, the 2014-2016 GT3 cars have a 10-year 120k mile engine warranty which was a huge selling point for me.

On a side note, the maintenance isn't nearly as expensive as you might think, especially if you have a good indy shop near you. If you live in CA and have to go to the dealer, it's going to be way more expensive (a dealer quoted me $600 for a pre-purchase inspection last week, lol). The 40k mile service is the big one for a regular 991 generation car, not sure which model years you were looking at.

Rennlist is the biggest Porsche message board and a great resource to find all the info you need - https://rennlist.com/forums/

Lee_WSP
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by Lee_WSP » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:54 am

Aren't all cars money pits? It just so happens that Porsche's cost more upfront, so you lose more because you paid more. If you bought a similarly priced Lexus, perhaps the Lexus will cost a bit less overall, but I'd say if you can afford either car, it's a wash to you.

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permport
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by permport » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:48 am

No. :D
Buy right and hold tight.

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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:29 am

You'd have to choose well and take the risk of the unknowns of the future. 996 cars are pretty cheap, but are you sure you won't have an IMS bearing failure, requiring an engine replacement at nearly the value of the entire car. 996 turbos (no IMS) are in my humble opinion the only 911 bargain out there and prices are rising. Air cooled cars are outrageously high (I passed on several 964 era turbos for $25k 15 years ago that are nearing $100k now).

Which series are you looking for? If you're looking for an older car (any air cooled), have the car very well inspected for both mechanicals and rust. In the rust belt, older 911's (SC and older) rust into a pile of scrap metal.
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Camarillo Brillo
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by Camarillo Brillo » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:25 am

BruDude and Jack FFR1846 know what they're talking about. Good info in their posts.

I currently own 4 Porsches, and sold a 1973 911S that I owned for 19 years. I paid $12K for the '73 and it ultimately sold at Gooding for $198K in 2013 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCrVjzJ3C2s ).

I now own a 1975 Carrera that I paid $60K for. It is now worth about $80K. But, after routine expenses I will barely break even.

I also have a 1990 964 triple black cab that I paid $24K for and it's now worth about $35. I will barely break even on that car, too.

Next, I have a 1996 993 Carrera 2 coupe that cost $55K. It's worth around $60K - $65K and I might break even on that as well.

Lastly, my daily driver is a 2018 Macan S. That was $71K and will drop in value like a rock.

If you're going to buy one, spend a few weeks or months reading message boards and attending car enthusiast meet-ups. BruDude mentioned Rennlist. That's a good one. I also watch Bring a Trailer everyday, and I hit the PCA (Porsche Club of America) classifieds on a regular basis.

You will quickly learn which models are most desirable. If you do buy one, have a pre-purchase inspection done by an independent
garage. Once you purchase it, find a reliable garage for service. I generally avoid dealers, as I prefer independents,

If all you're looking for is a fun, daily driver then I would focus on a Boxster or a Cayman. If you're looking for one that might move up in value, I like the 2002-2004 996 twin turbos.

If you're looking for old-school cool, you could look at a 1990-1994 964 Cabriolet. Of all the cars I have, that is the most fun. Nothing like dropping the top and just cruising.

Good luck.

Jags4186
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by Jags4186 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:36 am

Camarillo Brillo wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:25 am

I currently own 4 Porsches, and sold a 1973 911S that I owned for 19 years. I paid $12K for the '73 and it ultimately sold at Gooding for $198K in 2013 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCrVjzJ3C2s ).
Very curious—how much did the auction house take and how much did you spend maintaining that car? You’re able to take those all as offsets against the capital gain, right? Collectibles are subject to 20% LTCG tax if I’m correct. Also, when you buy a car like this, do you pay sales tax to the state where it’s registered on the auction value or some other amount?

That’s a really awesome story! Makes me think of a great business idea... “don’t invest your IRA in shiny lumps of metal like gold or silver...invest in shiny lumps of metal and leather that go VROOM. Open your Porsche IRA now!”

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Cyclesafe
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by Cyclesafe » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:26 am

OTOH, the concerns of the OP are well-founded.

Nick Murray bought two lemons, a 991.1 and a 991.2. They were both bought back by Porsche, the second after 4 months in the shop.

I also have been lusting for a 911, but Nick's experiences have cooled me off quite a bit. I am very happy, however, with my Macan Turbo, but visiting the dealer for routine maintenance is like walking into a "gentlemen's" club where the employees treat you like an ATM dispensing free money.

Peruse Nick's videos here. The one on the 991.1 has almost two million views. The one on the 991.2 is only a week old.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdSlBN ... OxWVacg9FQ

Edit: The pertinent 991.1 videos are a bit buried so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eXUnZrykDY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJjxeyC2W8s
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by smitcat » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:38 am

Lee_WSP wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:54 am
Aren't all cars money pits? It just so happens that Porsche's cost more upfront, so you lose more because you paid more. If you bought a similarly priced Lexus, perhaps the Lexus will cost a bit less overall, but I'd say if you can afford either car, it's a wash to you.
No - they are not all money pits.

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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by Sandtrap » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:52 am

ElmoHongZito wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:17 pm
I have no idea where I can get the answer to this question so I hope some bogleheads could chime in.

I would like to know if it is possible to purchase a Pre-owned Porsche 911 (not as a daily driver) and sell it a few years later without losing your butt.

I have always dreamed of owning one and would really like to own one for a few years but only if I know I can get most of my cash back out of it when I go to resell. Or at least know on the front end how much I will be losing on the resell and how I can perhaps limit that loss.

Thoughts? Would really like to hear what everyone’s insight is.
In my experience with various sportscars and toys . . . . Possible but highly unlikely.
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sambb
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by sambb » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:53 am

Maintenance is expensive
However, i find them reliable
You dont need the high horsepower versions at first
I have owned all sorts of nice cars, and exotics.
Porsche is great. However, i would consider a 14 or 15 cayman manual for 45k CPO as a first porsche (or a boxster)
You will keep it for 10 years and it will be fine.

Nova1967
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by Nova1967 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:56 am

I have owned a 911S since 2008, They are very reliable and do not necessarily have to be expensive to maintain if the miles are limited and they are properly maintained. My Porsche is a week end car and I put on 3K miles a year. It also helps to find a reliable, trustworthy independent shop. You can get feedback on forums such as Rennlist and Pelican parts. If you are going to take it to the dealer are worried about the price don't even bother to take it in.

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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by bloom2708 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:00 am

Lee_WSP wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:54 am
Aren't all cars money pits? It just so happens that Porsche's cost more upfront, so you lose more because you paid more. If you bought a similarly priced Lexus, perhaps the Lexus will cost a bit less overall, but I'd say if you can afford either car, it's a wash to you.
+1

I am tempted to post a thread with a title:

Can one own <any car, suv, truck> that is not a money pit? :oops:

Tax, title, registration, annual tax, insurance, gas, oil, car washes, accessories, regular maintenance, unexpected maintenance. Whew. Where hath my money gone?

A Porsche would just start out higher and likely have higher than average maintenance and ongoing expenses.
"People want confirmation, not advice" Unknown | "We are here to provoke thoughtfulness, not agree with you" Unknown | Four words. Whole food, plant based. Bing it.

smitcat
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by smitcat » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:14 am

bloom2708 wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:00 am
Lee_WSP wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:54 am
Aren't all cars money pits? It just so happens that Porsche's cost more upfront, so you lose more because you paid more. If you bought a similarly priced Lexus, perhaps the Lexus will cost a bit less overall, but I'd say if you can afford either car, it's a wash to you.
+1

I am tempted to post a thread with a title:

Can one own <any car, suv, truck> that is not a money pit? :oops:

Tax, title, registration, annual tax, insurance, gas, oil, car washes, accessories, regular maintenance, unexpected maintenance. Whew. Where hath my money gone?

A Porsche would just start out higher and likely have higher than average maintenance and ongoing expenses.
"I am tempted to post a thread with a title:
Can one own <any car, suv, truck> that is not a money pit? :oops:'

Yes you can if you are an enthusiast.

260chrisb
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by 260chrisb » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:24 am

These questions always open up the proverbial can of worms with endless suggestions of alternate cars, inaccurate facts, etc.!! You would be best to ignore any advice from anyone who has never actually owned one. Several replies have come from past or current owners. As a current and long time owner of 2 I see myself as being one qualified to reply. Consider these points; nothing looks, sounds, smells, or drives like a 911, period. They are wonderful cars to drive and own. They are expensive, have always been expensive, and will always be expensive, and generally come with a cost of ownership. Buying a 911 (or really any sports car) with the "how do I get the most cash back approach" may not be the best approach. One saves or makes money on the buy. Do your research, take your time, drive as many as you can, buy the newest one you can afford with a good maintenance history, don't buy from an auction or from some odd car lot selling cars from auctions (including a Porsh as they will call it), and find a good independent shop for advice (including a pre purchase inspection after you've given the seller a deposit based on it's outcome) and future maintenance. Remember; neglect and abuse cause future problems so avoid these cars and don't bargain shop. Have fun with the process and find a garage queen that was occasionally driven, has low miles, and was well cared for. It worked for me a couple times. Generally you need to go back 5-6 years to avoid depreciation but older cars like the late 996 models and 997 models are of value and affordable.

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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by plantingourpennies » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:32 am

This question is roughly equivalent to, "Can I pick 5 stocks that will out perform the market over the next X years?"

Yes, it's possible, and you'll hear from a few people that have done it, but it's more likely that you'll get a money pit.

Beware stories of ROI that occurred in the past decade or so. Toy car valuations follow market valuations, and porsche in particular is a "hot" car right now.

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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by rxtra8 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:39 am

Hummm...too many folks know about the 996TT it would seem...I'd better buy one soon! But DW says I have to sell the '65 corvette first...oh well. Then she asked if it is an automatic? I have had the corvette for 23 years and it has been more than worth it in fun driving; plus I just like looking at it. At worse case I have broken even. In looking for reliable fun cars that hold their value, the 996TT stands out. If I sell the corvette, the 996TT will replace it. Do your research!
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” | — Robertson Davies

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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:48 am

ElmoHongZito wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:17 pm
I have no idea where I can get the answer to this question so I hope some bogleheads could chime in.

I would like to know if it is possible to purchase a Pre-owned Porsche 911 (not as a daily driver) and sell it a few years later without losing your butt.

I have always dreamed of owning one and would really like to own one for a few years but only if I know I can get most of my cash back out of it when I go to resell. Or at least know on the front end how much I will be losing on the resell and how I can perhaps limit that loss.

Thoughts? Would really like to hear what everyone’s insight is.
In London the key was to wait for the downturn in the financial services sector.

The 1 to 3 year old Porsches would come flying back to the dealers as the redundancies happened.

I don't know if this is still the case or would be true of the tech sector.

But when the downturn hits people start to notice that they have USD 80k (plus) of metal sitting outside the house that us either only driven on weekends or to the station on a weekday.

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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by BruDude » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:17 am

Cyclesafe wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:26 am
OTOH, the concerns of the OP are well-founded.

Nick Murray bought two lemons, a 991.1 and a 991.2. They were both bought back by Porsche, the second after 4 months in the shop.

I also have been lusting for a 911, but Nick's experiences have cooled me off quite a bit. I am very happy, however, with my Macan Turbo, but visiting the dealer for routine maintenance is like walking into a "gentlemen's" club where the employees treat you like an ATM dispensing free money.

Peruse Nick's videos here. The one on the 991.1 has almost two million views. The one on the 991.2 is only a week old.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdSlBN ... OxWVacg9FQ

Edit: The pertinent 991.1 videos are a bit buried so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eXUnZrykDY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJjxeyC2W8s
Nick Murray is an extremely unlucky dude. 991 cars have been incredibly reliable overall

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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by BruDude » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:23 am

Another suggestion for OP - if you happen to live near Atlanta or Los Angeles, or can make the trip, I very highly recommend going to one of the Porsche Experience Centers and drive a 911 on the track (GT3 would be my personal recommendation). I did the GT3 experience in LA last year, have never tracked a car in my life, and had an absolutely incredible time.

It was pretty interesting how far I was able to push the car comfortably given that I had no track experience, and the improvement in lap times from beginning of the day to end of the day (about 3 hours of drive time) was really cool. Their professional driving instructors are great, everyone gets their own instructor to drive with, and you can also buy hot laps with the professional driver, they are unbelievably good at driving that track, borderline scary but you know they have complete control.

The restaurant at the LA one is also amazing, not sure if the Atlanta one has a restaurant. Fantastic experience, well worth the $900 or whatever I paid for the GT3 experience. Other cars are less expensive, the GT3 and Turbo S were the most expensive options.

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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by teamDE » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:22 pm

sambb wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:53 am
Maintenance is expensive
However, i find them reliable
You dont need the high horsepower versions at first
I have owned all sorts of nice cars, and exotics.
Porsche is great. However, i would consider a 14 or 15 cayman manual for 45k CPO as a first porsche (or a boxster)
You will keep it for 10 years and it will be fine.
I'm currently shopping for a 981 Cayman to replace the ol' E36 as my track day/TT car. Quite a lot of car for the money. Non-Ss can be found easy for $35k, S's for around $45k

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ElmoHongZito
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by ElmoHongZito » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:40 pm

Thank you all for responding. Specially those enthusiasts that understood my question and did not take the title so literal.

As far as which one's I am looking at, none so far however I think the 997's are where I would like to explore (2005-2012). Probably manual transmission and with the rear bucket seats which hopefully my 8 and 11 year old can sit in without complaining too much.

My daily driver is a 2018 Honda Civic Type R. For those not familiar, it is the fastest front wheel drive production car in the world. Fun to drive, pretty if you like Honda's and its 4 door which is what I wanted. Its practical and I can put high miles on it and not worry too much. But its not a 911 and with tropical whether pretty much year round I think I would really enjoy a 997 convertible for the weekends.

My main reason for the OP was to get feedback from boglehead minded people that are also Porsche enthusiasts and/or own or have owned 911's. I am not concerned as much with the actual price point of the car, but more with the residual value it will have when I sell it in a few years (I am not one to keep vehicles for a long time). The less money I leave on the table in order to enjoy my pre-owned toy, the better. ;)

I really liked some of the things I have learned so far from reading your replies. I will definitely look at some of the forums mentioned as well as PCA classifieds to educate myself in preparation to get the best deal possible and find a reputable independent shop I can get it pre-inspected as well as future maintenance and unexpected repairs.

I welcome more responses from those that understood my inquiry.

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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by aspirit » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:44 pm

ElmoHongZito wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:17 pm
I have no idea where I can get the answer to this question so I hope some bogleheads could chime in.

I would like to know if it is possible to purchase a Pre-owned Porsche 911 (not as a daily driver) and sell it a few years later without losing your butt.

I have always dreamed of owning one and would really like to own one for a few years but only if I know I can get most of my cash back out of it when I go to resell. Or at least know on the front end how much I will be losing on the resell and how I can perhaps limit that loss.

Thoughts? Would really like to hear what everyone’s insight is.
Good to see a entry and exit strategy.
Auto’s cost money, it’s that simple.
There’s no magic formula.
Good luck!

Quick reread; YOU HAVE A CIVIC-R......
Do not be greedy.
Jmho :happy
Last edited by aspirit on Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rich126
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by rich126 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:17 pm

My concern is that things can happen and you will be out of money. For example, I had a 5 year old car that I was planning to keep for a good 10 years but one day driving home traffic on the highway suddenly stopped and the guy behind me (I think he merged over when we had briefly picked up speed and didn't have any safe space to stop) couldn't stop. He hit me hard enough to drive my car into the car in front of me and my car was totaled and I got the blue book value for it.

So if you are willing to take whatever the blue book value is in the event of it getting totaled, or stolen, then its your call (I won't comment on whether it is a good idea).

It is one reason why I don't spend a lot of money on cars. I can't control what happens to them in parking lots, traffic, etc. unlike stuff in my house.

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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by StealthRabbit » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:32 pm

Camarillo Brillo wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:25 am
...
I currently own 4 Porsches, and sold a 1973 911S that I owned for 19 years. I paid $12K for the '73 and it ultimately sold at Gooding for $198K in 2013 ...


You will quickly learn which models are most desirable. ...
Good luck.
do this ^^^

You make your returns when you purchase (for a bargain).

My son found a 1966 911 for under $15k, I expect him to keep it a very long time, then come out well ahead.

Not perfect but very nice and ez to enjoy in the meantime.

If you are going for the newer spendy units... move to Montana to buy, register, insure, garage your exotic car, plane, Boat, RV. (or another sales tax free state with low insurance rates and lifetime plates).

phxjcc
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by phxjcc » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:58 pm

996 is the value leader.
1999 have ‘real’ throttle cables and some value that.

997 have better interiors, and of course the headlights.

IMS issues in all but TT and GT3, just plan on $3K.

If you buy CPO you will pay a premium and much more for a 991 and the depreciation will be higher.

If you want investment grade, go for a unicorn...
Like: non black, silver, or grey
Low mile
One owner
California/Arizona
All records
997 TT w/ X50
Probably high 50’s and will stay there.

Alternatively, the value buy is probably a 996 40th year (Jahre) edition.
All the go fast stuff in a C2.
And most have had the IMS done by now.
Goggle /40jahre registry/, they have cars for sale.

3504PIR
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by 3504PIR » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:10 pm

Picked up my second consecutive Porsche on Friday, they are very reliable especially newer models.

Interesting story of buying and selling. Had a US friend in Germany while I lived there who used to spend his summers buying 70s and 80s Porsche's in the US and shipping them over to Germany. He would rebuild them to the degree that they needed it and sell them for around twice what he paid for them in the US. The market for older Porsche's, particularly 1970s ones is very high among Germans in their 50s and 60s as they were not prosperous enough at the time to buy one (but are now) and they hold a warm place in their hearts.

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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by FireSekr » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:11 pm

teamDE wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:22 pm
sambb wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:53 am
Maintenance is expensive
However, i find them reliable
You dont need the high horsepower versions at first
I have owned all sorts of nice cars, and exotics.
Porsche is great. However, i would consider a 14 or 15 cayman manual for 45k CPO as a first porsche (or a boxster)
You will keep it for 10 years and it will be fine.
I'm currently shopping for a 981 Cayman to replace the ol' E36 as my track day/TT car. Quite a lot of car for the money. Non-Ss can be found easy for $35k, S's for around $45k
I toy with the idea of replacing my E36 with a Cayman as well but fear I will regret giving up the E36

Just took a long drive in the canyons in my E36 found myself near the automall. They had a great GT4 and while I know it’s a much better car than my E36, I can’t bring myself to drop $100k on it. Will I enjoy it more than my $12k e36? Yeah probably but not 10x more.

OP that $104k GT4 I’m talking about was a 2016 with 14k miles on it. Originally it sold for $90k. Porsche holds their value well, but the GT cars are the most sought after and most of them have gone up in value. It may cost more initially to get a GT, but it will hold or go up in value more than most base model Porsche

BruDude
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by BruDude » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:15 pm

phxjcc wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:58 pm
996 is the value leader.
1999 have ‘real’ throttle cables and some value that.

997 have better interiors, and of course the headlights.

IMS issues in all but TT and GT3, just plan on $3K.

If you buy CPO you will pay a premium and much more for a 991 and the depreciation will be higher.

If you want investment grade, go for a unicorn...
Like: non black, silver, or grey
Low mile
One owner
California/Arizona
All records
997 TT w/ X50
Probably high 50’s and will stay there.

Alternatively, the value buy is probably a 996 40th year (Jahre) edition.
All the go fast stuff in a C2.
And most have had the IMS done by now.
Goggle /40jahre registry/, they have cars for sale.
996 is the red-headed stepchild of 911's. You aren't going to find a good condition 997 TT for upper 50's, especially a manual. The cheapest one on cars.com for any spec is $64k. Finding any Porsche with one owner is extremely difficult since most Porsche owners have multiple cars and trade them out often. I've seen 991 GT3's with less than 10k miles that have had 5 owners already.

OP - here's a link to the Rennlist thread with hot 997 deals - https://rennlist.com/forums/997-forum/9 ... n-321.html

The 991 interior is a massive upgrade from the 997, which is a massive upgrade from the 996. I would look for a car with full leather interior, it's an expensive option but doesn't add much if any to the sale price of the car and makes a big difference in the luxury feel of the car.

997 prices have crept up enough that they are now encroaching on 991 territory, so you may feel that a newer car like the 991 is a better buy, but it depends what you like. The 997 feels different. You really need to test drive some and see what you like.

Do A LOT of research before you buy anything. A LOT.

BruDude
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by BruDude » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:19 pm

ssquared87 wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:11 pm
teamDE wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:22 pm
sambb wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:53 am
Maintenance is expensive
However, i find them reliable
You dont need the high horsepower versions at first
I have owned all sorts of nice cars, and exotics.
Porsche is great. However, i would consider a 14 or 15 cayman manual for 45k CPO as a first porsche (or a boxster)
You will keep it for 10 years and it will be fine.
I'm currently shopping for a 981 Cayman to replace the ol' E36 as my track day/TT car. Quite a lot of car for the money. Non-Ss can be found easy for $35k, S's for around $45k
I toy with the idea of replacing my E36 with a Cayman as well but fear I will regret giving up the E36

Just took a long drive in the canyons in my E36 found myself near the automall. They had a great GT4 and while I know it’s a much better car than my E36, I can’t bring myself to drop $100k on it. Will I enjoy it more than my $12k e36? Yeah probably but not 10x more.

OP that $104k GT4 I’m talking about was a 2016 with 14k miles on it. Originally it sold for $90k. Porsche holds their value well, but the GT cars are the most sought after and most of them have gone up in value. It may cost more initially to get a GT, but it will hold or go up in value more than most base model Porsche
GT car prices have been coming down, there are a number of GT4's available in the $80-85k range that originally stickered for $100k+. When the 718 version of the GT4 comes out the 981 generation will drop too. Don't believe what the dealers want you to think, check prices on Rennlist and private party prices. 991.2 GT3's were previously selling for $30-50k over sticker, now can be found for sticker or less new or with extremely low mileage. 991.1 GT3RS were selling for $50-100k over sticker new, now found at less than sticker used. GT2RS, albeit at a stratospheric price point, were selling for $100k over sticker and now dealers are having a hard time getting $20k over.

That said, GT cars hold their value extremely well in the long run. A 10 year old GT3 sold for ~$120k new and can still sell for $80-100k easy.

FireSekr
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by FireSekr » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:27 pm

BruDude wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:19 pm
ssquared87 wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:11 pm
teamDE wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:22 pm
sambb wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:53 am
Maintenance is expensive
However, i find them reliable
You dont need the high horsepower versions at first
I have owned all sorts of nice cars, and exotics.
Porsche is great. However, i would consider a 14 or 15 cayman manual for 45k CPO as a first porsche (or a boxster)
You will keep it for 10 years and it will be fine.
I'm currently shopping for a 981 Cayman to replace the ol' E36 as my track day/TT car. Quite a lot of car for the money. Non-Ss can be found easy for $35k, S's for around $45k
I toy with the idea of replacing my E36 with a Cayman as well but fear I will regret giving up the E36

Just took a long drive in the canyons in my E36 found myself near the automall. They had a great GT4 and while I know it’s a much better car than my E36, I can’t bring myself to drop $100k on it. Will I enjoy it more than my $12k e36? Yeah probably but not 10x more.

OP that $104k GT4 I’m talking about was a 2016 with 14k miles on it. Originally it sold for $90k. Porsche holds their value well, but the GT cars are the most sought after and most of them have gone up in value. It may cost more initially to get a GT, but it will hold or go up in value more than most base model Porsche
GT car prices have been coming down, there are a number of GT4's available in the $80-85k range that originally stickered for $100k+. When the 718 version of the GT4 comes out the 981 generation will drop too. Don't believe what the dealers want you to think, check prices on Rennlist and private party prices. 991.2 GT3's were previously selling for $30-50k over sticker, now can be found for sticker or less new or with extremely low mileage. 991.1 GT3RS were selling for $50-100k over sticker new, now found at less than sticker used. GT2RS, albeit at a stratospheric price point, were selling for $100k over sticker and now dealers are having a hard time getting $20k over.

That said, GT cars hold their value extremely well in the long run. A 10 year old GT3 sold for ~$120k new and can still sell for $80-100k easy.
Thank you I’ll have to do more research if I get serious. I’ve been toying with the idea of a Porsche for a few years but not sure I can stomach the upfront cost. Not saying it’s not worth it or anything like that, and I can pay cash, it’s just that personally I’m a bit cheap. Most likely I’ll end up with a 981 cayman s for half the price. but I’ve always wanted the GT4. Since it’ll be more of a daily driver/weekend car for me probably shouldn’t go for the GT4 anyway.

BruDude
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by BruDude » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:30 pm

ssquared87 wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:27 pm
Thank you I’ll have to do more research if I get serious. I’ve been toying with the idea of a Porsche for a few years but not sure I can stomach the upfront cost. Not saying it’s not worth it or anything like that, and I can pay cash, it’s just that personally I’m a bit cheap. Most likely I’ll end up with a 981 cayman s for half the price. but I’ve always wanted the GT4. Since it’ll be more of a daily driver/weekend car for me probably shouldn’t go for the GT4 anyway.
GT4 is probably not a great daily driver. I just got a GT3 and could see daily driving it, but it definitely helps to have an SUV for quick grocery store runs and stuff.

The 981 Cayman S is a great car. I fell in love with the GTS but the values have held too well and it wasn't worth the price difference to me. They're still the same price range now as they were when I was looking at them 2-3 years ago.

TheCowbell
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by TheCowbell » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:40 pm

rich126 wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:17 pm
My concern is that things can happen and you will be out of money. For example, I had a 5 year old car that I was planning to keep for a good 10 years but one day driving home traffic on the highway suddenly stopped and the guy behind me (I think he merged over when we had briefly picked up speed and didn't have any safe space to stop) couldn't stop. He hit me hard enough to drive my car into the car in front of me and my car was totaled and I got the blue book value for it.

So if you are willing to take whatever the blue book value is in the event of it getting totaled, or stolen, then its your call (I won't comment on whether it is a good idea).

It is one reason why I don't spend a lot of money on cars. I can't control what happens to them in parking lots, traffic, etc. unlike stuff in my house.
Was the car an exotic?

TheCowbell
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by TheCowbell » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:43 pm

Jags4186 wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:36 am
Camarillo Brillo wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:25 am

I currently own 4 Porsches, and sold a 1973 911S that I owned for 19 years. I paid $12K for the '73 and it ultimately sold at Gooding for $198K in 2013 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCrVjzJ3C2s ).
Very curious—how much did the auction house take and how much did you spend maintaining that car? You’re able to take those all as offsets against the capital gain, right? Collectibles are subject to 20% LTCG tax if I’m correct. Also, when you buy a car like this, do you pay sales tax to the state where it’s registered on the auction value or some other amount?

That’s a really awesome story! Makes me think of a great business idea... “don’t invest your IRA in shiny lumps of metal like gold or silver...invest in shiny lumps of metal and leather that go VROOM. Open your Porsche IRA now!”
+1 to these questions, have always been curious about how auction houses operate. I have some very old furniture with historical relevance that I'd need to get an auction house involved in but have no idea what their fee structure is like when dealing with extraordinary, unique, rare, valuable (or any combination of these) items.

BruDude
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by BruDude » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:49 pm

TheCowbell wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:43 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:36 am
Camarillo Brillo wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:25 am

I currently own 4 Porsches, and sold a 1973 911S that I owned for 19 years. I paid $12K for the '73 and it ultimately sold at Gooding for $198K in 2013 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCrVjzJ3C2s ).
Very curious—how much did the auction house take and how much did you spend maintaining that car? You’re able to take those all as offsets against the capital gain, right? Collectibles are subject to 20% LTCG tax if I’m correct. Also, when you buy a car like this, do you pay sales tax to the state where it’s registered on the auction value or some other amount?

That’s a really awesome story! Makes me think of a great business idea... “don’t invest your IRA in shiny lumps of metal like gold or silver...invest in shiny lumps of metal and leather that go VROOM. Open your Porsche IRA now!”
+1 to these questions, have always been curious about how auction houses operate. I have some very old furniture with historical relevance that I'd need to get an auction house involved in but have no idea what their fee structure is like when dealing with extraordinary, unique, rare, valuable (or any combination of these) items.
I think standard is buyer pays 10% commission and auction house takes 10% of the sale price, but I could be wrong

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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by ChinchillaWhiplash » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:57 pm

Buy a 997 with low miles and desireable options. Find one that has just had its scheduled service. If you have a nice example with low miles to sell, it will bring a premium. I bought a 2001 996 cab w/39k miles in 2012 for $24k. Could probably get around $20k for it now with 89k miles. Get a PPI (pre purchase inspection) done on it before buying to check for any issues that could turn it into a money pit. Some known issues which can make them a good deal just because people are scared of them. In reality a very small % have had these issues. Some good deals out there right now. Doubt that the 997 will ever be super collectible, but they might appreciate some and probably will at least hold their value.

Topic Author
ElmoHongZito
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by ElmoHongZito » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:00 pm

I am so happy I started this thread. Lots of good info in just a few hours that I would never have figured out on my own.

mdavis
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by mdavis » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:43 pm

I love my Carmine Red GT4. Original owner. Purchased in late 2015. Absolutely exhilarating car. One year of production: 2016.

No one knows what the price will be on the new 718 GT4s, so it is hard to know how the value will change on the 981s like mine. I could have sold mine at a profit for the first two years, but likely not anymore...Mine has a lot of extras and while I am #2 on the list for the next one, I don't know if it will be worth the hassle...new wrap, new coating, new "electronics", new DSP/amp/speakers, etc..Mine gets out on yearly tours and in the summer, but that is it.

Would I spend the money again? YES, in a heartbeat.

Agree that, in general, GT cars hold their value much better...if you can get one.

Re: service. I've had 3 oil changes in 8k miles, with 3 sets of oil analysis results...all good. I had some rattle issues, which I didn't pay to get fixed. I replaced the engine air filter at 5k miles, which was surprisingly annoying - have to take apart the car pretty extensively to get to it...I put some screens in the intakes to limit the rocks that get into the engine air filter...Probably paid $750-ish in the first 2.5 years.

I did replace the stock racing Cup 2's with Pilot 4Ss, which are much safer in the rain and last significantly longer.

Note: the later production GT4s have a 3rd gear tranny recall - has to do with the manufacturing process - you can read all about it on rennlist...Mine is not part of the recall, but many are getting free trannys...there is one other common issue with the strut brace, which I also have not experienced...I don't track the car.

-mark

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gilgamesh
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by gilgamesh » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:58 pm

I don’t have much to add, but cannot go without saying something...life long Porsche fan.

I would not buy a 911 thinking it won’t be a financial hit of some sort - although many ways to minimize it. The 50% loss in monetary value is a valid one. If you are not comfortable with that, then don’t buy it. Maintenance cost is minimal.

I bought my 911 in 2002...as any Porsche fan, wanted an air cooled 911. Even flew to CT to see a 993 TT - didn’t work out. Ended up walking into the dealer to check out the current models, saw the 996 C4S, silver, wide body, all leather, red calipers and the red body wide reflector on the rear. Bought it...the fun of driving has never diminished from the day I drove it out of the dealership to when I drove it today. I’ve tracked it, and even in Indy tracks (mid-Ohio)...nothing like it!

Although the IMS never gave a hint of issues (not that it would warn), I went for the full retrofit with the oil feed as I want to drive this forever. But buy it knowing the potential 50% loss...if you think a 50% loss is not worth it, then I would recommend you not to buy it.

grylex
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by grylex » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:36 pm

I had 2012 Boxster 987.2 bought in 2016 with 45k miles for 3 years.
Replaced it with 2013 Boxster 981 few months ago. Also 45k miles.

987 had two minor issues: cracked coil and sensor failure. It cost about $800 to fix both at indy shop.
No issues with 981 so far (prev owner also didn’t have a single issue) but maintenance cost in LA is higher than in other areas. Three different independent shops quoted ~1200$ for oil&filter change, brake fluid change and spark plug replacement. Dealer’s price was $1900.
DIY ~300$ and 5 hours of my time that I’ve enjoyed.

As others said, maintenance should bother more than reliability here.

jello_nailer
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by jello_nailer » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:24 pm

Camarillo Brillo is right on point.
In fact, we have similar garages -
GP White 1977 911S 3.0 Ducktail, bought for $20k, rebuilding engine, will sell it for $38,000
GP White 1991 964, bought for $20,200 worth $40,000
GP White 1994 968, bought for $6,800 worth $11,000
Riviera Blue 1995 993 Cab, bought for $32,000, wouldn't take $65,000 for it, turn downed last month
Seal Grey 2005 Cayenne Turbo, the PIG. Bought for $12,500 worth about $7,500 ( This was a $118K sticker car original owner took a $106,500 haircut!)
Seal Grey 2006 Boxster, bought for $23,500 worth about $15,000
Triple Black 2007 997S, Bought for $52,000 worth about $40,000
WHT 2018 Macan, $50,0000, will loss $20k on this one. It's worth it...
Had 3 GT3's, made $10-12k on each one
Seal Grey 2003 996 Turbo X50, $44,000, in an out. broke even.
Buy one with records about 3-4 years old, lower miles (not super low miles), records, maybe even extended warranty, in the flatter part of the depreciation curve. You will do ok.
Each series has it's issues - coolant pipes, IMS bearing, Cam bolts, etc. Every series is different.
Hard to beat a 997.2 in the right color. Solid and reliable.
I do my own work and they still aren't cheap, but they don't break often. As an example - put in water pump, lower coolant hoses, and LN Engineering thermostat, coolant flush, trans filter and fluid, in the boxster last weekend. Parts were $700. Dealer cost would have been $3000 or so. But... Original pump, 84K miles, daughter put on 50k miles high school and college. That is ALL I have done other than battery and serpentine belt in the last 7 years. Total parts costs over 50k miles - $1000 (not including 1 set of tires).
Go for it
TINS - There is no substitute.

ajg189
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by ajg189 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:18 am

I owned a boxster s for a year before buying my 911 Carrera 4S (it's a 2003, one-owner car with service records from day 1). At this point, if you buy a nice 996 or 997, you probably won't lose much on resale (probably not even a few k per year). That means your main cost of ownership will be in the maintenance and repairs. Based on my experience, a pretty fair number to budget is $3000 per year to cover incidental expenses, wear items, and regular maintenance. Some years you may spend more, some you may spend less, but on average a few grand per year will cover it. To me, nothing comes close to the look and feel of a 911. I hope to always have one.

As far as tips when you buy:
-Cars with good options will always be more desirable and command more money than a comparable car without (full leather interior, sport seats, sport exhaust, pasm, premium wheels). Even though the two cars may both be 2006 911's, one may have cost $20k more than the other when new.
-It seems that more cars were made in silver than any other color, especially in the 996/997 era. Non-silver cars typically command a premium, especially if they are really rare colors (ie. yellow, white, green).
-2009-2012 cars got new, more powerful/reliable direct-injected motors without the IMS bearing, updated in-car electronics, and new exterior lighting all while keeping the same size/overall shape. These cars are the most expensive 997's, but will also retain value the best. If you can afford one, then get a 997.2. This would have been my personal choice if I had the budget, and is my favorite overall 911 generation.

Remember, the cheapest car is not always the best deal. Look for something that has been well cared for, in addition to getting it inspected by a mechanic. These cars are not cheap to fix and some cars may be hiding thousands in maintenance that has not been addressed. Shop around for a car with maintenance records and good ownership history. This will help put you at ease and the provenance will be valuable when you sell it down the line.

BruDude
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by BruDude » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:22 pm

jello_nailer wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:24 pm
Camarillo Brillo is right on point.
In fact, we have similar garages -
GP White 1977 911S 3.0 Ducktail, bought for $20k, rebuilding engine, will sell it for $38,000
GP White 1991 964, bought for $20,200 worth $40,000
GP White 1994 968, bought for $6,800 worth $11,000
Riviera Blue 1995 993 Cab, bought for $32,000, wouldn't take $65,000 for it, turn downed last month
Seal Grey 2005 Cayenne Turbo, the PIG. Bought for $12,500 worth about $7,500 ( This was a $118K sticker car original owner took a $106,500 haircut!)
Seal Grey 2006 Boxster, bought for $23,500 worth about $15,000
Triple Black 2007 997S, Bought for $52,000 worth about $40,000
WHT 2018 Macan, $50,0000, will loss $20k on this one. It's worth it...
Had 3 GT3's, made $10-12k on each one
Seal Grey 2003 996 Turbo X50, $44,000, in an out. broke even.
Buy one with records about 3-4 years old, lower miles (not super low miles), records, maybe even extended warranty, in the flatter part of the depreciation curve. You will do ok.
Each series has it's issues - coolant pipes, IMS bearing, Cam bolts, etc. Every series is different.
Hard to beat a 997.2 in the right color. Solid and reliable.
I do my own work and they still aren't cheap, but they don't break often. As an example - put in water pump, lower coolant hoses, and LN Engineering thermostat, coolant flush, trans filter and fluid, in the boxster last weekend. Parts were $700. Dealer cost would have been $3000 or so. But... Original pump, 84K miles, daughter put on 50k miles high school and college. That is ALL I have done other than battery and serpentine belt in the last 7 years. Total parts costs over 50k miles - $1000 (not including 1 set of tires).
Go for it
TINS - There is no substitute.
Image

Presintense
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by Presintense » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:54 pm

My guess is that you would have to get the right Porsche, with somewhat limited miles, at below current market value (difficult right now) and sell it during a favorable economic environment to get all of your money back on purchase price and maintenance. Just a guess. Good luck!
Performance = Potential - Distraction

Wricha
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by Wricha » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:48 pm

Most everything said here I agree. Owned 911’s for 25+ years. The reliable on the 911 is great and as far as a money pit outside of the purchase price has been reasonable. For example I have 911 turbo 9 years old now with 35k miles maintance less $3,500 total and that includes the 40k service which is an expensive one. Others I have owned have similar experience. Most of mine involved trades so it’s difficult to determine loss/car.

fastrak99
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by fastrak99 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:31 pm

The 911 is IMHO one of the best cars to get in and out of (in the sports car segment) without as much as losing a dime on the entire ordeal.

I've owned 2 911s and have made money on both. Stick to desirable models, sub 100K and you will do just fine. Do your research, know some of the pitfalls of maintenance, common issues, but I cannot recommend another sports car brand that can hold price with appreciation potential (on some models). Couples traditionally fare better and are more desirable then convertibles.

As an example, look at 07-09 911 manual Turbos. They have been hovering in price 75-80K for almost the last 5-7 years - with an uptick in price recently for clean, low mileage examples. I believe GT4 Cayman will fare well over the long term (80/90K car currently). So will the 07-11 GT3s. Some 996 models are desirable, and I don't know much about the older ones but also know that prices have gotten out of control on certain ones.

A great place to start or learn your way around models, prices, issues is rennlist.com

Good luck !! The chase, research, planning, and buying is most the time the most exiting part.

SeaToTheBay
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Re: Can one own a Porsche 911 that is not a money pit?

Post by SeaToTheBay » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:20 pm

The 997s you are looking at have been holding their value well. I test drove an '05 C2S back in 2013 when I noticed you could just about get a clean one with 40k miles for $40k. Six years later, they are still the same price. Maintenance will be not cheap like any sports car (big brakes, big tires, lots of synthetic oil, etc.) but they are reliable, and having little to no depreciation goes a long way vs. buying even a brand new Civic or Corolla.

You could even get a 991.1 and probably not lose much money. The cheapest good ones are barely any cheaper than they were 2-3 years ago. They might come down a bit more as people trade them in on new 992s that are coming out now, but likely not by much.
phxjcc wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:58 pm
997 have better interiors, and of course the headlights.

IMS issues in all but TT and GT3, just plan on $3K.
The 997.2 (2009-2012) also does not have the IMS issue. But of course, you pay considerably more upfront.

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