What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

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sidartvader
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What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by sidartvader » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:25 pm

Thanks to Physiorol (and all the great responses) for the post linked below about IEOR at Berkeley vis-à-vis UC Davis CS. We are in a similar position and request feedback for our case which is as follows:

viewtopic.php?t=277672

Son has been accepted into IEOR at Berkeley, CS at UCLA and CS at UMich. At this time, he is leaning towards a career in finance or business consulting or data analytics (will like to do a minor in business). We are in Indiana so both California and Michigan will mean out-of-state tuition (which we are planning to pay ourselves). We, as parents, want him to be closer so Ann Arbor looks more promising and think CS degree will open more options. At the same time, Berkeley feels like a more prestigious and will expose him to the West Coast.

Any suggestions to help him make the decision will be appreciated.

Cartographer
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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by Cartographer » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:09 pm

Note that Berkeley does NOT have a business minor. There is always the possibility of a double major, but the business program requires an application during the second year, and it’s pretty competitive.

That said, Berkeley’s engineering reputation is a league above the other schools. That plus the proximity to SV makes Berkeley the obvious choice of pursuing an engineering career. I think the exact degree is also not super critical, and if your son loads up in CS classes he should have no problem recruiting for a CS type of position.

Also, if he is considering getting an MBA down the road, he will have a much better shot at the top programs coming from Berkeley.

stan1
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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by stan1 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:29 pm

sidartvader wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:25 pm
Son has been accepted into IEOR at Berkeley, CS at UCLA and CS at UMich. At this time, he is leaning towards a career in finance or business consulting or data analytics (will like to do a minor in business).
Any of these are very good options at three of the best public universities in the US. Has he visited all 3? What's his preference?

I'd pick the Cal Engineering degree over the CS degrees. If he does well in math and science classes he may as well get the sheepskin to prove it.

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LiveSimple
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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by LiveSimple » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:57 pm

Berkeley, UMich and UCLA, in that order in some perspective.

Berkeley and UCLA, close proximity to the Silicon Valley. Berkeley is rated #1.

UMich, is known as MIT rejects, getting into UMich is hard, then getting into engineering is harder, considering the out of state. CS in UMich is rated as top 11, Ross business school is also top rated.

Will do good in all three, good problem to have.

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sc ... e-rankings

As you stated, Berkeley is prestigious and west coast; Michigan is closer, will end up in west coast or anywhere they want.

Michigan may be a weekend trip anytime when your family wants to meet your son for lunch or dinner. 😂

Disclaimer : Our son is graduating this spring from CS UMich.
Last edited by LiveSimple on Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:13 pm, edited 6 times in total.

quantAndHold
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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by quantAndHold » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:02 pm

Where does he want to go? Cal is maybe a quarter of a step up from UCLA, but they’re all very good schools. You should be a proud parent.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by drk » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:37 pm

Whereas Berkeley Haas does not offer an undergrad business minor, Michigan Ross does. If he decided to go into finance, Ross also has a slight edge over Haas.

That said, basically everything is a push. If he does well, he'll have similarly excellent opportunities at all three schools, so it comes down to his and your subjective preferences.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by DrGoogle2017 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:43 pm

I would pick CS UMich, my daughter was admitted there but she decided to stay instate. Her options were much cheaper.
But don’t generalize that Berkeley is a step above UCLA. Anecdote here, but my kid worked at an intern job in San Diego next to a UCBerkeley graduate who has a lot more experience than her. She didn’t speak highly of him, said he was very slow despite the Berkeley degree.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by uclalien » Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:27 am

sidartvader wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:25 pm
Any suggestions to help him make the decision will be appreciated.
As others have noted, all three universities are highly regarded academically. But if he hasn't already visited each university, he should. Each will have a very different feel, and one may be a better fit than the others. Cal and UCLA may both be in California, but they each have their own vibe.

Climate would be another factor to consider. California will come out ahead for most people if your son doesn't like the cold. And if he likes the sun and beaches, UCLA may be the way to go (although, in more partial to the beaches in Orange County and San Diego).

UCLA doesn't have an undergraduate business program. Cal is the only UC with one. The CSUs are designated as California's business schools. UCs are designated as California's research universities. As an alternative, UCLA offers a business economics degree, which is a combination of economics and accounting. As far as I know, UCLA doesn't have an economics minor, only an accounting minor.

Housing costs should be significantly lower in Michigan, which could minimize how much in student loans he may be required to take out given the high cost of out of state tuition.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by sfnerd » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:33 am

I graduated from Michigan's Computer Engineering program many years ago. It's really a great program, and an amazing college experience. The others are great too, but I don't know a Michigan grad who hasn't really loved their time there. Go Blue!

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by Valuethinker » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:35 am

sidartvader wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:25 pm
Thanks to Physiorol (and all the great responses) for the post linked below about IEOR at Berkeley vis-à-vis UC Davis CS. We are in a similar position and request feedback for our case which is as follows:

viewtopic.php?t=277672

Son has been accepted into IEOR at Berkeley, CS at UCLA and CS at UMich. At this time, he is leaning towards a career in finance or business consulting or data analytics (will like to do a minor in business). We are in Indiana so both California and Michigan will mean out-of-state tuition (which we are planning to pay ourselves). We, as parents, want him to be closer so Ann Arbor looks more promising and think CS degree will open more options. At the same time, Berkeley feels like a more prestigious and will expose him to the West Coast.

Any suggestions to help him make the decision will be appreciated.
For a general education the Berkeley degree is better. For out of school big bucks CS is better. A blended degree at Mich sounds more possible (CS w business).

Berkeley degree leads straight into consulting. 6 figure salaries but hellish lifestyle always on the road etc.

UCLA is a big city university. I did CS at a big city university and I do not recommend it. The commuting alone and cost of housing dilutes the school atmosphere. It will be full of very bright kids living at home and driving for high grades. At least that was my experience.

Michigan is a classic American midwest university. The alumni love it. Sports is big. It's on a great small town.

I think Michigan will suit him better.

Undergrad curriculum is actually pretty common across degrees between universities. A big part of the undergrad experience is the atmosphere of the college and the friends you make, who will be life long. That tilts me towards Michigan.

BUT if your kid is quirky, intellectual, into alternatives then Berkeley will be a less conformist place. More diverse.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by ag1 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:19 am

thank you for your comments and insights.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by anil686 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:41 am

Also went to UM - but for Chemistry - really great campus and great college life.

My SIL went to both UCLA undergrad and USC for law school. I would put UCLA different than most big city universities. There were not a lot of commuters due to the location (it is far north LA bordering on Pasadena) and for my SIL who grew up in Long Beach, it averaged about 2 hours each way to get to and from campus from 5AM to about 8 PM making it really difficult to do that. That is very different than USC which was about an hour each way and she commuted to that school. She always said how nice the campus and community was at UCLA but at USC, if you walked a block or two off campus (which is also very nice BTW), you were in downtown LA and it did not resemble the campus. The nice thing it seemed like about UCLA was that you had the big city atmosphere in rather safe and welcoming enclave IMO...

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sidartvader
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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by sidartvader » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:52 am

Thank you, Bogleheads for coming through as always. Will share with my son to help him finalize his decision.

-vader.

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sidartvader
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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by sidartvader » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:36 am

drk wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:37 pm
Whereas Berkeley Haas does not offer an undergrad business minor, Michigan Ross does. If he decided to go into finance, Ross also has a slight edge over Haas.

That said, basically everything is a push. If he does well, he'll have similarly excellent opportunities at all three schools, so it comes down to his and your subjective preferences.
This is a very good point. Thank you!

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by quantAndHold » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:05 am

DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:43 pm
I would pick CS UMich, my daughter was admitted there but she decided to stay instate. Her options were much cheaper.
But don’t generalize that Berkeley is a step above UCLA. Anecdote here, but my kid worked at an intern job in San Diego next to a UCBerkeley graduate who has a lot more experience than her. She didn’t speak highly of him, said he was very slow despite the Berkeley degree.
I spent several years hiring recent grads for jobs at a FAANG. All the kids from this category of schools were bright. There were differences in problem solving skills, critical thinking skills, and work ethic, but nothing that could be generalized to the school level. All three of these schools provide a well rounded education that will prepare them for a career.

If it was my kids, I would have let them choose. Knowing my kids, I suspect each one would have chosen a different school, for their own unique reasons. And they would have all been correct.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by gfirero » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:04 am

Does he have a preference for where he wants to end up geographically? You mentioned he has an interest in Finance, if he wants to end up in Wall Street UM attracts a lot of New Yorkers.
A lot of business consulting firms are headquartered in Chicago - AKA West Ann Arbor :happy

https://www.wsj.com/graphics/where-grad ... r-college/

Both schools are top-notch. Congratulations to your son.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by stan1 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:18 am

DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:43 pm
Anecdote here, but my kid worked at an intern job in San Diego next to a UCBerkeley graduate who has a lot more experience than her. She didn’t speak highly of him, said he was very slow despite the Berkeley degree.
I've worked with a few worthless Harvard and Stanford grads and even a Cal Tech grad who I'm convinced had very premature cognitive decline [in his 30s]. I place much more emphasis on people's skills, abilities, and contributions not on where they got a degree from. I've interviewed enough people to be able to get it right more often than not. I would not want to work for someone who valued the degree granting institution more than then individual. A local medical group for example only hires from Harvard Medical School. I've heard their holiday parties are a real bore.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by SevenBridgesRoad » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:32 am

stan1 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:18 am
DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:43 pm
Anecdote here, but my kid worked at an intern job in San Diego next to a UCBerkeley graduate who has a lot more experience than her. She didn’t speak highly of him, said he was very slow despite the Berkeley degree.
...A local medical group for example only hires from Harvard Medical School. I've heard their holiday parties are a real bore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I
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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by jayk238 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:55 am

sidartvader wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:25 pm
Thanks to Physiorol (and all the great responses) for the post linked below about IEOR at Berkeley vis-à-vis UC Davis CS. We are in a similar position and request feedback for our case which is as follows:

viewtopic.php?t=277672

Son has been accepted into IEOR at Berkeley, CS at UCLA and CS at UMich. At this time, he is leaning towards a career in finance or business consulting or data analytics (will like to do a minor in business). We are in Indiana so both California and Michigan will mean out-of-state tuition (which we are planning to pay ourselves). We, as parents, want him to be closer so Ann Arbor looks more promising and think CS degree will open more options. At the same time, Berkeley feels like a more prestigious and will expose him to the West Coast.

Any suggestions to help him make the decision will be appreciated.
You realize that perdue will give almost as good training? I mean it may not be in same league as berkley but its darn good and the tuition costs will be insanely cheaper. If your son is really good he should easily qualify for scholarship assistance. I got into cmu etc all the big names and received a lot of scholarship money and went to the cheapesr best school i could.

I wouldnt recommend going to out of state unless he is getting something unique to himself.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by celia » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:40 pm

At both UC schools, I think on-campus housing is only for freshmen. So during freshman year, you need to start making friends who could be potential roommates.
anil686 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:41 am
My SIL went to both UCLA undergrad and USC for law school. I would put UCLA different than most big city universities. There were not a lot of commuters due to the location (it is far north LA bordering on Pasadena) . . .
UCLA is nowhere near Pasadena (which is north-east of UCLA). UCLA is on the west side of Los Angeles (in the Westwood neighborhood), close to Santa Monica. Not only do Los Angeles buses go there, but so do many of the Santa Monica "Big Blue Bus" lines.

Your son might peruse the research of Berkeley grad students in the IEOR program to see if this is similar to the kinds of things he is doing. Other schools also often post information about their grad students. (I had to look up "IEOR" to see what it meant and saw the link to the grad students.)
https://ieor.berkeley.edu/students/
Since CS is an impacted major at Berkeley, he might not be able to get into any of their classes unless the major requires some of them. CS also doesn't allow many students into their program if they weren't admitted as incoming freshmen (at least that was my understanding 10 years ago when we visited there).

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by anonenigma » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:51 pm

anil686 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:41 am
Also went to UM - but for Chemistry - really great campus and great college life.

My SIL went to both UCLA undergrad and USC for law school. I would put UCLA different than most big city universities. There were not a lot of commuters due to the location (it is far north LA bordering on Pasadena) and for my SIL who grew up in Long Beach, it averaged about 2 hours each way to get to and from campus from 5AM to about 8 PM making it really difficult to do that. That is very different than USC which was about an hour each way and she commuted to that school. She always said how nice the campus and community was at UCLA but at USC, if you walked a block or two off campus (which is also very nice BTW), you were in downtown LA and it did not resemble the campus. The nice thing it seemed like about UCLA was that you had the big city atmosphere in rather safe and welcoming enclave IMO...
Geography is a bit off. UCLA is as far from Pasadena as USC is from Long Beach - about 25 miles.

Long Beach to UCLA is eight miles further (33 mi.) than Long Beach to USC (25 miles).

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sidartvader
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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by sidartvader » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:05 pm

gfirero wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:04 am
Does he have a preference for where he wants to end up geographically? You mentioned he has an interest in Finance, if he wants to end up in Wall Street UM attracts a lot of New Yorkers.

Both schools are top-notch. Congratulations to your son.
He likes the East Coast (has visited NY area many time visiting family and for college visits).

Thank you - we are proud of him. The college application process certainly has been quite testing...

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by A-Commoner » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:23 pm

anil686 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:41 am
Also went to UM - but for Chemistry - really great campus and great college life.

My SIL went to both UCLA undergrad and USC for law school. I would put UCLA different than most big city universities. There were not a lot of commuters due to the location (it is far north LA bordering on Pasadena) and for my SIL who grew up in Long Beach, it averaged about 2 hours each way to get to and from campus from 5AM to about 8 PM making it really difficult to do that. That is very different than USC which was about an hour each way and she commuted to that school. She always said how nice the campus and community was at UCLA but at USC, if you walked a block or two off campus (which is also very nice BTW), you were in downtown LA and it did not resemble the campus. The nice thing it seemed like about UCLA was that you had the big city atmosphere in rather safe and welcoming enclave IMO...
UCLA is not close to Pasadena although the Bruins play football there. Maybe you were thinking of Caltech which is in Pasadena?

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by inbox788 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:52 pm

A-Commoner wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:23 pm
UCLA is not close to Pasadena although the Bruins play football there. Maybe you were thinking of Caltech which is in Pasadena?
CSULA is sometime confused with UCLA and is closer to Pasadena. While it's a good school, it's not at this caliber.

I'm not familiar with this IEOR major, but I'm old fashioned and this trend towards highly specialized undergraduate degrees concern me. Some of these newer majors are also specializing too much too soon at the masters levels as far as I'm concerned. What ever happened to the idea of a liberal arts degree? Or including more liberal arts in engineering programs? Besides the fundamental math, science and engineering courses in engineering itself, many factors contributed to lengthening towards 5 or 6 years graduation times. And while these specialization majors may help one get a job right out of college, switching tracks later may not be as flexible.

FWIW, CS isn't really going to help much either "...towards a career in finance or business consulting or data analytics". Taking classes in Artificial Intelligence, Theory of Computation, Microprocessors, Advanced Database Systems, Compiler Design or Image Processing and Computer Vision will have limited benefit if the company he works for isn't in those immediate areas. What kind of work area does he envision pursuing? The basic classes in either of these choices is likely to be more relevant laying foundations towards more advanced or applied work. A double major in math or applied math might be considered in some situations.

For the most part, it looks like no matter what, the student is likely to do work outside of the area of study, and if that's the case, the bigger name/reputation seems to be Berkeley.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by SevenBridgesRoad » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:14 am

sidartvader wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:05 pm
gfirero wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:04 am
Does he have a preference for where he wants to end up geographically? You mentioned he has an interest in Finance, if he wants to end up in Wall Street UM attracts a lot of New Yorkers.

Both schools are top-notch. Congratulations to your son.
He likes the East Coast (has visited NY area many time visiting family and for college visits).

Thank you - we are proud of him. The college application process certainly has been quite testing...
Are you talking about the East Coast of Lake Michigan?

College visits to the East Coast of the US?...you have a lot of responders talking about small bore geography in CA. Time wasted? Confusing. I thought we were talking about two CA schools and Ann Arbor? I've lived near AA and, just sayin', it's nowhere near the US East Coast.
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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by Valuethinker » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:20 am

I am basically torn between the Berkeley degree, which I think will give a broader education** *but* probably makes the job search harder

AND

what I know about Michigan: great town, great university, everyone seems to have loved their time there. Michigan grads find their way to Wall Street (not just MBAs - undergrads) on analyst programmes - that's where I encountered them. It's a big state school with some of the personality of a private university.

Engineering is a better degree than CS (my degree is in CS but with a commerce minor) although in fact what both grads wind up doing, often, is developing software. My friend who works (indirectly) for NASA has a graduate degree in engineering (optimal control theory) but that seems to be what he does, mostly. TBH if you want to work as an engineer, a masters seems to be very important at getting those roles.

The main difference at my university (big state school) was that the Engineering school formed a stable core of people, took the same classes, group work on problem sets etc, for the first 2-3 years of the degree. Much more cohesive and a faculty spirit. By contrast CS was part of the liberal arts faculty and only in the upper years did you have a familiar set of faces. I think I would have benefited from the more cohesive engineering class approach.

More math is always better than less math, but you have to get the grades: recruiters screen by grades. It's nonsense, an Applied Math & Stats major with a B is a better bet than an easier degree graduate with higher grades, but you get cut from consideration at the Investment Banks, say, at the first hurdle.

So I think the answer is something like CS at Michigan with a minor in business or economics or something that does a fair bit of applied stats (economics these days is all about applying statistical tools to large datasets - that seems to be the thrust of Phds these days).

** a number of business school professors (in finance, but not only) seemed to have undergrad backgrounds similar to the Berkeley degree.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by Cartographer » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:04 am

inbox788 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:52 pm
What ever happened to the idea of a liberal arts degree?
You mean the liberal arts degree that is only really an option for rich kids who can mooch off their parents when they can't find a job after college? I mean, not everyone can afford to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to debate whether a tree falling in the forest makes noise. The great thing about college is that the experience is very customizable and means different things to each person. Engineers are totally free to take those liberal arts classes as electives, and many do. But many don't because they are aren't interested.

And these engineering programs, while highly technical, are no more "specialized" than an English degree. IEOR is actually very interdisciplinary. And CS is now a core component of essentially every technical discipline.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by Dialectical Investor » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:21 am

Cartographer wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:04 am
inbox788 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:52 pm
What ever happened to the idea of a liberal arts degree?
You mean the liberal arts degree that is only really an option for rich kids who can mooch off their parents when they can't find a job after college? I mean, not everyone can afford to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to debate whether a tree falling in the forest makes noise. The great thing about college is that the experience is very customizable and means different things to each person. Engineers are totally free to take those liberal arts classes as electives, and many do. But many don't because they are aren't interested.

And these engineering programs, while highly technical, are no more "specialized" than an English degree. IEOR is actually very interdisciplinary. And CS is now a core component of essentially every technical discipline.
English and philosophy are not the entire scope of the liberal arts, although the term is commonly misunderstood. A liberal arts degree is in contrast to professional degrees in areas such as engineering, law, business, and medicine. Mathematics, physics, biology, and chemistry are all part of the liberal arts. You might see a school designated as the "school of arts and sciences." Even computer science often falls into this school, under mathematics. Engineers usually do not have a choice but to take "liberal arts" classes.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by Valuethinker » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:03 am

Cartographer wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:04 am
inbox788 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:52 pm
What ever happened to the idea of a liberal arts degree?
You mean the liberal arts degree that is only really an option for rich kids who can mooch off their parents when they can't find a job after college? I mean, not everyone can afford to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to debate whether a tree falling in the forest makes noise. The great thing about college is that the experience is very customizable and means different things to each person. Engineers are totally free to take those liberal arts classes as electives, and many do. But many don't because they are aren't interested.

And these engineering programs, while highly technical, are no more "specialized" than an English degree. IEOR is actually very interdisciplinary. And CS is now a core component of essentially every technical discipline.
Interestingly Art History majors had one of the highest average salaries post graduation (I read about it on The Baseline Scenario blog, a few years ago).

What the blogger (not Simon Johnson, the other one) pointed out this was not because art history jobs pay well - they don't.

What it really means is that the top recruiters (investment banks, consulting firms etc.) recruit from a pretty elite group of colleges. Major is less important than other aspects of the interviewee for post-college roles.

https://www.amazon.com/Pedigree-How-Eli ... =8-2-fkmr0

is quite interesting on this subject.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by Jags4186 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:22 am

Cartographer wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:04 am
inbox788 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:52 pm
What ever happened to the idea of a liberal arts degree?
You mean the liberal arts degree that is only really an option for rich kids who can mooch off their parents when they can't find a job after college? I mean, not everyone can afford to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to debate whether a tree falling in the forest makes noise. The great thing about college is that the experience is very customizable and means different things to each person. Engineers are totally free to take those liberal arts classes as electives, and many do. But many don't because they are aren't interested.

And these engineering programs, while highly technical, are no more "specialized" than an English degree. IEOR is actually very interdisciplinary. And CS is now a core component of essentially every technical discipline.
I have a degree in history and a minor in music. I managed to get a job graduating in spring 2008 making $50k and I make triple that now. While the minor was just for fun, the utility of the history degree has been high in my industry job and most employers have been receptive to it. You’d be surprised how many people can’t write and how many people can’t take information from multiple sources and synthesise an action step. It’s all about how you frame your education.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by RickBoglehead » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:28 am

sidartvader wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:25 pm
Thanks to Physiorol (and all the great responses) for the post linked below about IEOR at Berkeley vis-à-vis UC Davis CS. We are in a similar position and request feedback for our case which is as follows:

viewtopic.php?t=277672

Son has been accepted into IEOR at Berkeley, CS at UCLA and CS at UMich. At this time, he is leaning towards a career in finance or business consulting or data analytics (will like to do a minor in business). We are in Indiana so both California and Michigan will mean out-of-state tuition (which we are planning to pay ourselves). We, as parents, want him to be closer so Ann Arbor looks more promising and think CS degree will open more options. At the same time, Berkeley feels like a more prestigious and will expose him to the West Coast.

Any suggestions to help him make the decision will be appreciated.
Make sure he asks about the difficulty/ability to do the business minor at Michigan, and whether he can simply take classes at Ross and get a minor or whether he has to be admitted to Ross to do so.
Avid user of forums on variety of interests-financial, home brewing, F-150, PHEV, home repair, etc. Enjoy learning & passing on knowledge. It's PRINCIPAL, not PRINCIPLE. I ADVISE you to seek ADVICE.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by Cartographer » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:11 am

Jags4186 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:22 am
I have a degree in history and a minor in music. I managed to get a job graduating in spring 2008 making $50k and I make triple that now. While the minor was just for fun, the utility of the history degree has been high in my industry job and most employers have been receptive to it. You’d be surprised how many people can’t write and how many people can’t take information from multiple sources and synthesise an action step. It’s all about how you frame your education.
And how much would you be making now if your degree had been in engineering? Of course all majors have the potential to find good jobs, but the probabilities are much higher in certain majors. It’s also highly dependent on the chosen career path. I would bet that, with a few exceptions, and engineering degree would open almost every door a history degree would (and then there are the obvious career paths for which engineering is mandatory).

In the context of liberal arts vs professional degrees, people often say that a liberal arts degree is broad, teaches you how to think, how to communicate, how to see the bigger picture. The implication is often that professionally oriented programs don’t offer these things. In other words, engineers are highly specialized robots. My post was trying to push back against this misconception.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by LFKB » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:25 am

For context, I am 11 years out of college and work in finance (private equity) and run recruiting at my firm.

If he wants to go into finance, all three of those are very good options. The big investment banks (as well as the consulting firms) recruit from all three of those schools. For context, there are only a relatively low number of schools (around 15) that the major investment banks target for recruiting.

Part of the question comes down to where he may want to live after college. While he can leverage his degree to move anywhere, he will get a lot more looks from Chicago and NY based firms from Michigan, at LA firms from UCLA and at SF/SV firms from Berkeley. Berkeley or UCLA would offer pretty good flexibility for both southern or northern California opportunities.

I am not well versed when it comes to CS/engineering opportunities but I imagine that due to proximity to SV Berkeley would have the best recruiting options and UCLA would be second best.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by DrGoogle2017 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:39 am

Cartographer wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:04 am
inbox788 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:52 pm
What ever happened to the idea of a liberal arts degree?
You mean the liberal arts degree that is only really an option for rich kids who can mooch off their parents when they can't find a job after college? I mean, not everyone can afford to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to debate whether a tree falling in the forest makes noise. The great thing about college is that the experience is very customizable and means different things to each person. Engineers are totally free to take those liberal arts classes as electives, and many do. But many don't because they are aren't interested.

And these engineering programs, while highly technical, are no more "specialized" than an English degree. IEOR is actually very interdisciplinary. And CS is now a core component of essentially every technical discipline.
Math is also liberal arts major, not engineering classes though. My kid took a lot of math classes, less engineering classes than I did. But her grades in writing courses beat a lot of liberal arts major by a mile.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by DrGoogle2017 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:43 am

Cartographer wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:11 am
Jags4186 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:22 am
I have a degree in history and a minor in music. I managed to get a job graduating in spring 2008 making $50k and I make triple that now. While the minor was just for fun, the utility of the history degree has been high in my industry job and most employers have been receptive to it. You’d be surprised how many people can’t write and how many people can’t take information from multiple sources and synthesise an action step. It’s all about how you frame your education.
And how much would you be making now if your degree had been in engineering? Of course all majors have the potential to find good jobs, but the probabilities are much higher in certain majors. It’s also highly dependent on the chosen career path. I would bet that, with a few exceptions, and engineering degree would open almost every door a history degree would (and then there are the obvious career paths for which engineering is mandatory).

In the context of liberal arts vs professional degrees, people often say that a liberal arts degree is broad, teaches you how to think, how to communicate, how to see the bigger picture. The implication is often that professionally oriented programs don’t offer these things. In other words, engineers are highly specialized robots. My post was trying to push back against this misconception.
I love a certain college website, I won’t mention name, some people keep saying liberal arts teach critical thinking as if in engineering courses they don’t.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by Jags4186 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:34 am

Cartographer wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:11 am
Jags4186 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:22 am
I have a degree in history and a minor in music. I managed to get a job graduating in spring 2008 making $50k and I make triple that now. While the minor was just for fun, the utility of the history degree has been high in my industry job and most employers have been receptive to it. You’d be surprised how many people can’t write and how many people can’t take information from multiple sources and synthesise an action step. It’s all about how you frame your education.
And how much would you be making now if your degree had been in engineering? Of course all majors have the potential to find good jobs, but the probabilities are much higher in certain majors. It’s also highly dependent on the chosen career path. I would bet that, with a few exceptions, and engineering degree would open almost every door a history degree would (and then there are the obvious career paths for which engineering is mandatory).

In the context of liberal arts vs professional degrees, people often say that a liberal arts degree is broad, teaches you how to think, how to communicate, how to see the bigger picture. The implication is often that professionally oriented programs don’t offer these things. In other words, engineers are highly specialized robots. My post was trying to push back against this misconception.
I don’t know how much I’d be making now. I suppose it would depend on the school I received the engineering degree from and the career path chosen. I see plenty of posts on this website from rank and file individual contributors in STEM fields that are older than me and make less than me. I also see plenty in and out of STEM fields who make boatloads more than me.

I happen to think the school you attend is more important than the degree you receive. Having almost any degree from a super elite school is better than a practical degree from a middle of the pack/bottom tier school. Fortunately the OP is choosing between all schools in that elite category.

I think the big problem is that when we look at the university system in the US there are approximately 5000 degree conferring schools in the US and the elite category comprises maybe 50 schools.

I always choose schools near me to pick on. If you’re choosing between Rutgers or Princeton you’d really have to be crazy IMO to pick Rutgers even if Princeton costs 4x as much. If your choice is instead between Rutgers or Penn State I think you choose the cheapest school.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by SC Anteater » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:52 am

Dialectical Investor wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:21 am
Cartographer wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:04 am
inbox788 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:52 pm
What ever happened to the idea of a liberal arts degree?
You mean the liberal arts degree that is only really an option for rich kids who can mooch off their parents when they can't find a job after college? I mean, not everyone can afford to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to debate whether a tree falling in the forest makes noise. The great thing about college is that the experience is very customizable and means different things to each person. Engineers are totally free to take those liberal arts classes as electives, and many do. But many don't because they are aren't interested.

And these engineering programs, while highly technical, are no more "specialized" than an English degree. IEOR is actually very interdisciplinary. And CS is now a core component of essentially every technical discipline.
English and philosophy are not the entire scope of the liberal arts, although the term is commonly misunderstood. A liberal arts degree is in contrast to professional degrees in areas such as engineering, law, business, and medicine. Mathematics, physics, biology, and chemistry are all part of the liberal arts. You might see a school designated as the "school of arts and sciences." Even computer science often falls into this school, under mathematics. Engineers usually do not have a choice but to take "liberal arts" classes.
I have one kid in college for an engineering degree and another for a liberal arts degree. One's path is pretty clear, the other not so much. It will be interesting to see how they turn out in 10 years.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by Cartographer » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:25 pm

Jags4186 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:34 am
I don’t know how much I’d be making now. I suppose it would depend on the school I received the engineering degree from and the career path chosen. I see plenty of posts on this website from rank and file individual contributors in STEM fields that are older than me and make less than me. I also see plenty in and out of STEM fields who make boatloads more than me.
Interestingly, Berkeley actually keeps track of this kind of information:

https://career.berkeley.edu/Survey/2018Majors

(Now keep in mind that this data is the result of surveys with only mediocre response rates, so there are caveats. But I think it still paints a useful picture)

Take a look at the starting salary and employment rate for history majors. Then look at IEOR. For fun, you can also look at EECS.

Maybe engineering doesn’t teach how to communicate or synthesize data, but it certainly teaches how to get a good paycheck.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by SC Anteater » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:57 pm

Cartographer wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:25 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:34 am
I don’t know how much I’d be making now. I suppose it would depend on the school I received the engineering degree from and the career path chosen. I see plenty of posts on this website from rank and file individual contributors in STEM fields that are older than me and make less than me. I also see plenty in and out of STEM fields who make boatloads more than me.
Interestingly, Berkeley actually keeps track of this kind of information:

https://career.berkeley.edu/Survey/2018Majors

(Now keep in mind that this data is the result of surveys with only mediocre response rates, so there are caveats. But I think it still paints a useful picture)

Take a look at the starting salary and employment rate for history majors. Then look at IEOR. For fun, you can also look at EECS.

Maybe engineering doesn’t teach how to communicate or synthesize data, but it certainly teaches how to get a good paycheck.
Not everyone can be an engineer. I wouldn't push my kid into engineering if they didn't have the interest in it. It's tough enough for the one who does have an interest.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by DrGoogle2017 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:22 pm

SC Anteater wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:57 pm
Cartographer wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:25 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:34 am
I don’t know how much I’d be making now. I suppose it would depend on the school I received the engineering degree from and the career path chosen. I see plenty of posts on this website from rank and file individual contributors in STEM fields that are older than me and make less than me. I also see plenty in and out of STEM fields who make boatloads more than me.
Interestingly, Berkeley actually keeps track of this kind of information:

https://career.berkeley.edu/Survey/2018Majors

(Now keep in mind that this data is the result of surveys with only mediocre response rates, so there are caveats. But I think it still paints a useful picture)

Take a look at the starting salary and employment rate for history majors. Then look at IEOR. For fun, you can also look at EECS.

Maybe engineering doesn’t teach how to communicate or synthesize data, but it certainly teaches how to get a good paycheck.
Not everyone can be an engineer. I wouldn't push my kid into engineering if they didn't have the interest in it. It's tough enough for the one who does have an interest.
True, I have one who has a liberal arts degree. You can’t push them into anything. But I also don’t think it’s a good idea to poopoo engineering as non thinking robots who can’t read or write or communicate or think critically. A lot of non sense that keeps repeating online. That’s the stereotype you want to avoid.
Last edited by DrGoogle2017 on Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by Dialectical Investor » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:28 pm

SC Anteater wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:52 am
Dialectical Investor wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:21 am
Cartographer wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:04 am
inbox788 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:52 pm
What ever happened to the idea of a liberal arts degree?
You mean the liberal arts degree that is only really an option for rich kids who can mooch off their parents when they can't find a job after college? I mean, not everyone can afford to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to debate whether a tree falling in the forest makes noise. The great thing about college is that the experience is very customizable and means different things to each person. Engineers are totally free to take those liberal arts classes as electives, and many do. But many don't because they are aren't interested.

And these engineering programs, while highly technical, are no more "specialized" than an English degree. IEOR is actually very interdisciplinary. And CS is now a core component of essentially every technical discipline.
English and philosophy are not the entire scope of the liberal arts, although the term is commonly misunderstood. A liberal arts degree is in contrast to professional degrees in areas such as engineering, law, business, and medicine. Mathematics, physics, biology, and chemistry are all part of the liberal arts. You might see a school designated as the "school of arts and sciences." Even computer science often falls into this school, under mathematics. Engineers usually do not have a choice but to take "liberal arts" classes.
I have one kid in college for an engineering degree and another for a liberal arts degree. One's path is pretty clear, the other not so much. It will be interesting to see how they turn out in 10 years.
That is often the case, but the clarity of the path has nothing to do with whether or not it is a good path, and it is quite possible to have a clear path in the liberal arts if that's what one desires. It's also possible to declare a non-liberal arts major and have no clear path--many business students, for instance.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by Jags4186 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:49 pm

I’m not poo pooing a STEM degree. I think it’s wonderful if you are smart enough to make it. I happen to believe that for people who can get into the top schools in the country (and Berkeley, Michigan, UCLA are top schools) you will likely be somewhat successful in whatever path you choose. But not everyone has the ability to be an engineer. I barely got out of Calc II and that was only with the help of a friend who was an engineer who could solve problems 10x faster than I could.

That said, I will stick up for the history majors in that link above. Take a look at where many of them are going to grad school. Look at the list of law schools there. I wouldn’t be surprised that the graduates of those law schools will be making more than most of the engineers are at the age of 25 (or 26 if they clerk for a year).

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by ohai » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:07 pm

Hi, OP. If you are near Michigan and you want kid to be around there, then go to University of Michigan. Because speaking from experience, if he goes to California, he's probably not coming back. His job offers and friends will all be in California. The schools are all comparable. UCLA is slightly behind, but not enough such that other factors can't change your mind.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by DrGoogle2017 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:36 pm

Jags4186 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:49 pm
I’m not poo pooing a STEM degree. I think it’s wonderful if you are smart enough to make it. I happen to believe that for people who can get into the top schools in the country (and Berkeley, Michigan, UCLA are top schools) you will likely be somewhat successful in whatever path you choose. But not everyone has the ability to be an engineer. I barely got out of Calc II and that was only with the help of a friend who was an engineer who could solve problems 10x faster than I could.

That said, I will stick up for the history majors in that link above. Take a look at where many of them are going to grad school. Look at the list of law schools there. I wouldn’t be surprised that the graduates of those law schools will be making more than most of the engineers are at the age of 25 (or 26 if they clerk for a year).
That’s an outdated model. My daughter had a roommate who graduate from Berkeley undergraduate, graduated from UCLA law school, he barely cleared $20-$25 when she was rooming with him. The only good thing from the law degree is if something is wrong with the apartment, he can write a damn good threatening letter to the land,ore. The law market collapsed for some reasons. I’m not sure it has recovered or not. But all her college friends who did not have academic chops ended up being a lawyer. One particular kid, her grandparent often said to me, she never picked up a book to read when she was younger. The opposite of my oldest child. It’s laughable this particular kid is now a lawyer.

And the English major from a top 50 schools is now working the same job she did when she was a teenager.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by Jags4186 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:45 pm

DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:36 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:49 pm
I’m not poo pooing a STEM degree. I think it’s wonderful if you are smart enough to make it. I happen to believe that for people who can get into the top schools in the country (and Berkeley, Michigan, UCLA are top schools) you will likely be somewhat successful in whatever path you choose. But not everyone has the ability to be an engineer. I barely got out of Calc II and that was only with the help of a friend who was an engineer who could solve problems 10x faster than I could.

That said, I will stick up for the history majors in that link above. Take a look at where many of them are going to grad school. Look at the list of law schools there. I wouldn’t be surprised that the graduates of those law schools will be making more than most of the engineers are at the age of 25 (or 26 if they clerk for a year).
That’s an outdated model. My daughter had a roommate who graduate from Berkeley undergraduate, graduated from UCLA law school, he barely cleared $20-$25 when she was rooming with him. The only good thing from the law degree is if something is wrong with the apartment, he can write a damn good threatening letter to the land,ore. The law market collapsed for some reasons. I’m not sure it has recovered or not. But all her college friends who did not have academic chops ended up being a lawyer. One particular kid, her grandparent often said to me, she never picked up a book to read when she was younger. The opposite of my oldest child. It’s laughable this particular kid is now a lawyer.

And the English major from a top 50 schools is now working the same job she did when she was a teenager.
I would simply suggest if your daughter has a friend who graduated from UCLA law school (AND passed the bar) the problem is with the graduate, not with the system. The law market is saturated for kids going to poor law schools. The law market isn’t saturated for T14 graduates who could very easily go into industry as well as practicing law. UCLA isn’t T14 but it is certainly close.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by DrGoogle2017 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:02 pm

Jags4186 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:45 pm
DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:36 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:49 pm
I’m not poo pooing a STEM degree. I think it’s wonderful if you are smart enough to make it. I happen to believe that for people who can get into the top schools in the country (and Berkeley, Michigan, UCLA are top schools) you will likely be somewhat successful in whatever path you choose. But not everyone has the ability to be an engineer. I barely got out of Calc II and that was only with the help of a friend who was an engineer who could solve problems 10x faster than I could.

That said, I will stick up for the history majors in that link above. Take a look at where many of them are going to grad school. Look at the list of law schools there. I wouldn’t be surprised that the graduates of those law schools will be making more than most of the engineers are at the age of 25 (or 26 if they clerk for a year).
That’s an outdated model. My daughter had a roommate who graduate from Berkeley undergraduate, graduated from UCLA law school, he barely cleared $20-$25 when she was rooming with him. The only good thing from the law degree is if something is wrong with the apartment, he can write a damn good threatening letter to the land,ore. The law market collapsed for some reasons. I’m not sure it has recovered or not. But all her college friends who did not have academic chops ended up being a lawyer. One particular kid, her grandparent often said to me, she never picked up a book to read when she was younger. The opposite of my oldest child. It’s laughable this particular kid is now a lawyer.

And the English major from a top 50 schools is now working the same job she did when she was a teenager.
I would simply suggest if your daughter has a friend who graduated from UCLA law school (AND passed the bar) the problem is with the graduate, not with the system. The law market is saturated for kids going to poor law schools. The law market isn’t saturated for T14 graduates who could very easily go into industry as well as practicing law. UCLA isn’t T14 but it is certainly close.
Are you sure about that? My sister used to have a roommate who worked for a law firm back in the 90s, even then she said people or some women with pretisgious law degrees from Yale Law school got assigned to research jobs, while the rain makers got plum assignments. This is before the law market collapsed.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by Jags4186 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:35 pm

DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:02 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:45 pm
DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:36 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:49 pm
I’m not poo pooing a STEM degree. I think it’s wonderful if you are smart enough to make it. I happen to believe that for people who can get into the top schools in the country (and Berkeley, Michigan, UCLA are top schools) you will likely be somewhat successful in whatever path you choose. But not everyone has the ability to be an engineer. I barely got out of Calc II and that was only with the help of a friend who was an engineer who could solve problems 10x faster than I could.

That said, I will stick up for the history majors in that link above. Take a look at where many of them are going to grad school. Look at the list of law schools there. I wouldn’t be surprised that the graduates of those law schools will be making more than most of the engineers are at the age of 25 (or 26 if they clerk for a year).
That’s an outdated model. My daughter had a roommate who graduate from Berkeley undergraduate, graduated from UCLA law school, he barely cleared $20-$25 when she was rooming with him. The only good thing from the law degree is if something is wrong with the apartment, he can write a damn good threatening letter to the land,ore. The law market collapsed for some reasons. I’m not sure it has recovered or not. But all her college friends who did not have academic chops ended up being a lawyer. One particular kid, her grandparent often said to me, she never picked up a book to read when she was younger. The opposite of my oldest child. It’s laughable this particular kid is now a lawyer.

And the English major from a top 50 schools is now working the same job she did when she was a teenager.
I would simply suggest if your daughter has a friend who graduated from UCLA law school (AND passed the bar) the problem is with the graduate, not with the system. The law market is saturated for kids going to poor law schools. The law market isn’t saturated for T14 graduates who could very easily go into industry as well as practicing law. UCLA isn’t T14 but it is certainly close.
Are you sure about that? My sister used to have a roommate who worked for a law firm back in the 90s, even then she said people or some women with pretisgious law degrees from Yale Law school got assigned to research jobs, while the rain makers got plum assignments. This is before the law market collapsed.
Most first and second year law associates get truckloads of mundane work.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by DrGoogle2017 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:55 pm

Jags4186 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:35 pm
DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:02 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:45 pm
DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:36 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:49 pm
I’m not poo pooing a STEM degree. I think it’s wonderful if you are smart enough to make it. I happen to believe that for people who can get into the top schools in the country (and Berkeley, Michigan, UCLA are top schools) you will likely be somewhat successful in whatever path you choose. But not everyone has the ability to be an engineer. I barely got out of Calc II and that was only with the help of a friend who was an engineer who could solve problems 10x faster than I could.

That said, I will stick up for the history majors in that link above. Take a look at where many of them are going to grad school. Look at the list of law schools there. I wouldn’t be surprised that the graduates of those law schools will be making more than most of the engineers are at the age of 25 (or 26 if they clerk for a year).
That’s an outdated model. My daughter had a roommate who graduate from Berkeley undergraduate, graduated from UCLA law school, he barely cleared $20-$25 when she was rooming with him. The only good thing from the law degree is if something is wrong with the apartment, he can write a damn good threatening letter to the land,ore. The law market collapsed for some reasons. I’m not sure it has recovered or not. But all her college friends who did not have academic chops ended up being a lawyer. One particular kid, her grandparent often said to me, she never picked up a book to read when she was younger. The opposite of my oldest child. It’s laughable this particular kid is now a lawyer.

And the English major from a top 50 schools is now working the same job she did when she was a teenager.
I would simply suggest if your daughter has a friend who graduated from UCLA law school (AND passed the bar) the problem is with the graduate, not with the system. The law market is saturated for kids going to poor law schools. The law market isn’t saturated for T14 graduates who could very easily go into industry as well as practicing law. UCLA isn’t T14 but it is certainly close.
Are you sure about that? My sister used to have a roommate who worked for a law firm back in the 90s, even then she said people or some women with pretisgious law degrees from Yale Law school got assigned to research jobs, while the rain makers got plum assignments. This is before the law market collapsed.
Most first and second year law associates get truckloads of mundane work.
No, she was already graduated from law school.

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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by Jags4186 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:58 pm

DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:55 pm
No, she was already graduated from law school.
An associate is a position at a firm. Most first and second year associates, i.e. first year and second year attorneys at big law firms, are given truckloads of mundane work. Those who survive move up, others burn out from the work and go to lesser firms or into industry.

DrGoogle2017
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Re: What about IEOR at Berkeley vs CS at UMich/UCLA?

Post by DrGoogle2017 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:05 pm

Jags4186 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:58 pm
DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:55 pm
No, she was already graduated from law school.
An associate is a position at a firm. Most first and second year associates, i.e. first year and second year attorneys at big law firms, are given truckloads of mundane work. Those who survive move up, others burn out from the work and go to lesser firms or into industry.
If I remember correctly, she was there 7 year.

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