"The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

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tennisplyr
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by tennisplyr » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:33 pm

Artsdoctor wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:50 pm
tennisplyr wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:29 pm
Hard to argue with Florida (especially Sarasota) at #1......I'm good :happy
It is true that parts of Florida are gorgeous and the weather is terrific. Add the favorable state tax structure, and it's no wonder that so many people retire there.

However, Florida has always been regarded as having among the worst healthcare set-ups in the country. This has been a paradox because you'd think that having so many retirees would mandate medical excellence. However, that is not the case. There are numerous studies ranking Florida in the lowest tier of medical quality in the country. Here's hyperlink although it's just one of dozens which you've probably seen because it was so heavily publicized last year:

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Why ... 16211.html

There are definitely centers of excellence. Certainly Miami institutions are top tier. But the rest of the state would generally be regarded suspiciously . . .

We live in Sarasota...we've had to deal with cancer and eye issues and routine exams and the doctors/staffs have been fabulous... And I came from NY.
Those who move forward with a happy spirit will find that things always work out.

radiowave
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by radiowave » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:34 pm

DaftInvestor wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:59 pm
Artsdoctor wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:50 pm

It is true that parts of Florida are gorgeous and the weather is terrific.
Regarding the weather - that is somewhat up for debate (although I realize many might agree with you). Personally - Florida is one of the last places I would want to live year round because of the weather. I can't stand the humidity - 90 degrees with 90 percent humidity is hardly "terrific" in my book. Florida weather is okay during the winter - but unbearable in the summer.
+1 from experience of living in Central FL for 3 years. Plus inland you don't get the ocean/gulf breezes. Plus you have to contend with a wide variety of bugs, many biting, alligators, and elderly snowbirds driving along with all the traffic congestion. I'm glad I'm not in FL any more and have no intentions of retiring there. I'll put this in the " . . . worst U.S. states for retirement" column.

Edit: fixed minor spelling error
Last edited by radiowave on Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Artsdoctor
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by Artsdoctor » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:52 pm

The point I'm trying to make is that retirees have differing priorities. These lists are truly meaningless although perhaps they offer destinations that one would not think of right away when planning for retirement. I'm a physician who prizes excellent medical care so my priorities are going to be skewed; I freely admit that. I have friends living in rural areas who need to be helicoptered for medical care and their philosophy is "when it's time to go, it's time to go." The philosophies are all over the place.

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by blackcat allie » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:01 pm

Anyone else have a "sinking feeling" about Florida?
(and other low lying, coastal areas)

https://www.zillow.com/research/ocean-a ... oor-21931/
“Nothing in life is as important as you think it is while you are thinking about it.” - Daniel Kahneman

protagonist
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by protagonist » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:23 pm

Ranking places like this is little more than clickbait.
The best place to retire is where you want to live, not some place that fits an arbitrary equation. And by the time you are 65, you should have at least a pretty good idea of where that is. It might be where you can afford, but might also be where your family lives, where it is warm and you can go to the beach, where there is the best fly fishing, where there are the best art galleries, whatever floats your boat.
Ask people where they want to retire....I doubt that a lot of people will pick #2 SD .

Copper John
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by Copper John » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:47 pm

radiowave wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:04 pm
wwhan wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:19 pm
Colorado looks interesting, but has black ice and snow in the winter.

It seems most houses in populous Colorado areas are two story and the nice houses are huge.

A one story house with no winter black ice would seem to be good features for retirement.
Actually there is very little black ice here, at least in the Denver metro area. We are high desert and mostly sunny dry and cool/cold in the winter. Just had a blizzard two weeks ago, a foot and a half in the driveway and most of the snow evaporated and streets were clear second day after the storm. I grew up on Long Island and have bad memories of black ice, not the same thing out here in CO. And did I mention the 300 days of sunshine :) I can live with 20 something degrees, 20% humidity and not a cloud in the sky.
Another Colorado resident here and I find the sunny, dry climate to be be perfect for my needs and concur that black ice here is a rare event.But I have to say that I think the common information often shared that there is on average 300+ sunny days in the front range to be a bit high. That would be an average of 6 out of 7 days a week being sunny . That is not my experience. It would be closer to 250 days or about 5 out of 7 days on average. Still damn good!

https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/ ... nshine.php
Last edited by Copper John on Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by Spirit Rider » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:07 pm

blackcat allie wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:01 pm
Anyone else have a "sinking feeling" about Florida?
(and other low lying, coastal areas)

https://www.zillow.com/research/ocean-a ... oor-21931/
More alarmist gloom and doom. The average seal level rise was 1/10th of an inch prior to the 90s. The "massive" acceleration over the last 20-25 years is up to 1/8th of an inch a year. Their so-called models show a geometric acceleration of future sea level rises. That is as believable as all their other alarmist models that haven't come to pass.

JackoC
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by JackoC » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:12 am

randomguy wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:40 pm
Barsoom wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:02 pm
Texas is 38 in Health Care?

We have the MD Anderson Cancer Center here. We have the Memorial Hermann–Texas Medical Center here.

Michael Debakey revolutionized heart surgery at the Baylor College of Medicine here.

James "Red" Duke pioneered the Life Flight treatment for trauma patients here.

As a retiree living off of accumulated savings, I'd probably weigh affordability the highest, and trade off everything else.

-B
The problem is the rest of the state😁 It isn't exactly a short trip from Waco(far from the remotest area) to Houston or Austin. You would have to look at their exact methodology to figure out why certain things work out. You might disagree with it. Look at the debate we are having about a few feet of snow😁
True in practice location within a state must matter. However you can look at the methodology of the debated study here:
https://wallethub.com/edu/best-and-wors ... ethodology

and there's no apparent factor for distance to health care. The health care rating is composed of a bunch of measures of healthcare assets per capita (not per unit area or average distance), a bunch of measures of health of the over-65 population in the state, one measure of absolute number of facilities ('top rated geriatric hospitals') and one quality index ('quality of public hospitals').

I don't think that makes that part or the whole study 'clickbait'. Every broad methodology has drawbacks but it's common for people to poke holes in particular aspects while not acknowledging that a place with worse healthcare would still have trouble consistently scoring much better on a whole bunch of measures than a place that really had the better healthcare set up, even if you can legitimately poke holes in any of the measures one by one.

Per capita availability of healthcare resources is really not irrelevant. Also the health of existing 65+ population can be a function of things irrelevant to a given retiree (TX's ethnic demographics are quite different from MN's or SD's and health outcomes in the US correlate pretty strongly with race/ethnicity). But it probably contains some factors which are relevant.

In all cases, how would the 'real' analysis actually work if this one is worthless? I remain unconvinced that studies like this are worthless. I'd still say as I did initially they can be valuable to suggest places one might not have thought of otherwise. Then in follow up analysis you would, obviously, look more into the specifics and how they relate to you. But disembodied voices on the internet giving their own confirmation bias laden positive assessments of where they live aren't very valuable either. Some people seem to assume the point of such a study is to get people to buy some retirement real estate sight unseen in SD and start packing, but of course it's not. It's an introductory resource.

quantAndHold
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by quantAndHold » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:26 am

Spirit Rider wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:07 pm
blackcat allie wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:01 pm
Anyone else have a "sinking feeling" about Florida?
(and other low lying, coastal areas)

https://www.zillow.com/research/ocean-a ... oor-21931/
More alarmist gloom and doom. The average seal level rise was 1/10th of an inch prior to the 90s. The "massive" acceleration over the last 20-25 years is up to 1/8th of an inch a year. Their so-called models show a geometric acceleration of future sea level rises. That is as believable as all their other alarmist models that haven't come to pass.
It’s what the “new, improved” storms do with those sea levels that’s the problem, not the sea level rise itself. I might live in a low lying coastal area, but I wouldn’t buy property there. Too risky.

TBillT
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by TBillT » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:04 pm

Virginina I see as very tax friendly if you are lower income and just taking SS.
If you are deferring SS and taking IRA you are hit pretty hard...I would say Virginia targets middle income to tax hardest and cuts breaks to lower income and not too bad for higher incomes.

Spirit Rider
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by Spirit Rider » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:22 pm

quantAndHold wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:26 am
Spirit Rider wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:07 pm
blackcat allie wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:01 pm
Anyone else have a "sinking feeling" about Florida?
(and other low lying, coastal areas)

https://www.zillow.com/research/ocean-a ... oor-21931/
More alarmist gloom and doom. The average seal level rise was 1/10th of an inch prior to the 90s. The "massive" acceleration over the last 20-25 years is up to 1/8th of an inch a year. Their so-called models show a geometric acceleration of future sea level rises. That is as believable as all their other alarmist models that haven't come to pass.
It’s what the “new, improved” storms do with those sea levels that’s the problem, not the sea level rise itself. I might live in a low lying coastal area, but I wouldn’t buy property there. Too risky.
More myths, There were more major hurricanes to make landfall in the 50s and 60s than the last twenty years. 2018 was one of the least active years for tornadoes on record. There were no EF4+ tornadoes at all

ychuck46
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by ychuck46 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:27 pm

This survey was probably one of the worst I have seen so far. Our adopted state for the last nine years, TN, always ranks high as far as affordability, and affordability is the one metric the vast majority of retirees are looking at. Supposedly this survey is based on three criteria, COL, health care, and quality of life. We have the first completely covered, our healthcare providers are top notch, and for most you cannot get a better quality of life as long as you like the outdoors. I believe this so-called survey was meant for no other reason than to give huge importance to a nebulous criteria called "quality of life" that might favor some states in the North and West that would consistently be at the very bottom of such surveys if they only took COL into account. But I suppose I should be happy that they ranked TN so low; we have too many people coming here to escape their high taxes, and then trying to turn TN into exactly what they were escaping from.

ohai
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by ohai » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:28 pm

Spirit Rider wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:07 pm
blackcat allie wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:01 pm
Anyone else have a "sinking feeling" about Florida?
(and other low lying, coastal areas)

https://www.zillow.com/research/ocean-a ... oor-21931/
More alarmist gloom and doom. The average seal level rise was 1/10th of an inch prior to the 90s. The "massive" acceleration over the last 20-25 years is up to 1/8th of an inch a year. Their so-called models show a geometric acceleration of future sea level rises. That is as believable as all their other alarmist models that haven't come to pass.
Florida will be fine - they will just reinforce the coast somehow if sea levels get too high. This will have some tax revenue implications, but your house won't be washed away. Just don't live on a tiny island of the coast that no infrastructure will support.

randomguy
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by randomguy » Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:18 pm

ychuck46 wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:27 pm
This survey was probably one of the worst I have seen so far. Our adopted state for the last nine years, TN, always ranks high as far as affordability, and affordability is the one metric the vast majority of retirees are looking at. Supposedly this survey is based on three criteria, COL, health care, and quality of life. We have the first completely covered, our healthcare providers are top notch, and for most you cannot get a better quality of life as long as you like the outdoors. I believe this so-called survey was meant for no other reason than to give huge importance to a nebulous criteria called "quality of life" that might favor some states in the North and West that would consistently be at the very bottom of such surveys if they only took COL into account. But I suppose I should be happy that they ranked TN so low; we have too many people coming here to escape their high taxes, and then trying to turn TN into exactly what they were escaping from.
TN does well on affordability but poorly on the QOL and health care in this study. This list is really mislabeled. It isn't the "Best places to retire". It is more along the lines of "The places where retirees are doing the best". A lot of questions just ask about if you have enough money to afford food, housing, and medical care. And even more are you in a healthy demographic. It isn't clear that if you take the same person and in one case they retire to MN and the other to Missisippi that they will have bad health, poor mental health, a disability, obesity, inability to sleep, no drug plan, and so on. Those numbers are at least as driven by what happened before as what you do in retirement.

quantAndHold
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by quantAndHold » Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:40 pm

Spirit Rider wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:22 pm
quantAndHold wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:26 am
Spirit Rider wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:07 pm
blackcat allie wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:01 pm
Anyone else have a "sinking feeling" about Florida?
(and other low lying, coastal areas)

https://www.zillow.com/research/ocean-a ... oor-21931/
More alarmist gloom and doom. The average seal level rise was 1/10th of an inch prior to the 90s. The "massive" acceleration over the last 20-25 years is up to 1/8th of an inch a year. Their so-called models show a geometric acceleration of future sea level rises. That is as believable as all their other alarmist models that haven't come to pass.
It’s what the “new, improved” storms do with those sea levels that’s the problem, not the sea level rise itself. I might live in a low lying coastal area, but I wouldn’t buy property there. Too risky.
More myths, There were more major hurricanes to make landfall in the 50s and 60s than the last twenty years. 2018 was one of the least active years for tornadoes on record. There were no EF4+ tornadoes at all
Any year can be an outlier. 2017 was an outlier in the other direction. It’s a fact that 16 out of the last 25 years have had above normal hurricane activity, something that has never happened before.

Ask Florida homeowners what they’re paying for insurance coverage. The insurance companies aren’t quite so sure that it’s a myth.

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by HomerJ » Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:45 pm

ohai wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:28 pm
Spirit Rider wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:07 pm
blackcat allie wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:01 pm
Anyone else have a "sinking feeling" about Florida?
(and other low lying, coastal areas)

https://www.zillow.com/research/ocean-a ... oor-21931/
More alarmist gloom and doom. The average seal level rise was 1/10th of an inch prior to the 90s. The "massive" acceleration over the last 20-25 years is up to 1/8th of an inch a year. Their so-called models show a geometric acceleration of future sea level rises. That is as believable as all their other alarmist models that haven't come to pass.
Florida will be fine - they will just reinforce the coast somehow if sea levels get too high. This will have some tax revenue implications, but your house won't be washed away. Just don't live on a tiny island of the coast that no infrastructure will support.
Miami is built on porous limestone. The sea bubbles up from underneath, there's no way to put a wall around Miami.

Miami floods far more often these days. It's not a myth. It's happening right now. Miami has raised roads, and spend hundreds of millions upgrading pumps to pump out all the seawater when it floods.
The J stands for Jay

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by Glockenspiel » Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:50 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:45 pm
ohai wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:28 pm
Spirit Rider wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:07 pm
blackcat allie wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:01 pm
Anyone else have a "sinking feeling" about Florida?
(and other low lying, coastal areas)

https://www.zillow.com/research/ocean-a ... oor-21931/
More alarmist gloom and doom. The average seal level rise was 1/10th of an inch prior to the 90s. The "massive" acceleration over the last 20-25 years is up to 1/8th of an inch a year. Their so-called models show a geometric acceleration of future sea level rises. That is as believable as all their other alarmist models that haven't come to pass.
Florida will be fine - they will just reinforce the coast somehow if sea levels get too high. This will have some tax revenue implications, but your house won't be washed away. Just don't live on a tiny island of the coast that no infrastructure will support.
Miami is built on porous limestone. The sea bubbles up from underneath, there's no way to put a wall around Miami.

Miami floods far more often these days. It's not a myth. It's happening right now. Miami has raised roads, and spend hundreds of millions upgrading pumps to pump out all the seawater when it floods.
And Manhattan is spending a billion dollars building flood walls, levees, and green space to mitigate the effects from the next Superstorm Sandy. It's not a myth that large rain events (like those types of rain events that occur during hurricanes) are becoming both larger, and more frequent. This is a direct effect of climate change.

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WestUniversity
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by WestUniversity » Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:59 pm

livesoft wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:21 pm
I like to split my time between a couple of states: Bliss and Ignorance.
+1

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DanMahowny
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by DanMahowny » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:54 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:16 am
Another option is to just have one home, but rent 3-4 months out of the year someplace warmer or cooler.
Yes. Brilliant.
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by CULater » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:23 pm

I've lived in a number of different places but the one thing I've found that pretty much spoils all of them: "Wherever I go, there I am." Just can't seem to get away from that fool...
On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

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HomerJ
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by HomerJ » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:34 pm

DanMahowny wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:54 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:16 am
Another option is to just have one home, but rent 3-4 months out of the year someplace warmer or cooler.
Yes. Brilliant.
It absolutely is cheaper than living in Southern CA.

I will be the first to admit that Southern CA (on the coast) is pretty close to heaven on earth, weather wise, but it costs FOUR times what I can spend in other parts of the country that are JUST as nice for 7-9 months.

Far cheaper to live in those other places for 7-9 months and rent someplace else during the bad months.

Caribbean looks pretty nice.
The J stands for Jay

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by LadyGeek » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:17 pm

With regards to some earlier posts, the discussion was starting to derail regarding climate change. Please stay on-topic.
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by JackoC » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:05 am

randomguy wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:18 pm
ychuck46 wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:27 pm
This survey was probably one of the worst I have seen so far. Our adopted state for the last nine years, TN, always ranks high as far as affordability, and affordability is the one metric the vast majority of retirees are looking at. Supposedly this survey is based on three criteria, COL, health care, and quality of life. We have the first completely covered, our healthcare providers are top notch, and for most you cannot get a better quality of life as long as you like the outdoors. I believe this so-called survey was meant for no other reason than to give huge importance to a nebulous criteria called "quality of life" that might favor some states in the North and West that would consistently be at the very bottom of such surveys if they only took COL into account. But I suppose I should be happy that they ranked TN so low; we have too many people coming here to escape their high taxes, and then trying to turn TN into exactly what they were escaping from.
TN does well on affordability but poorly on the QOL and health care in this study. This list is really mislabeled. It isn't the "Best places to retire". It is more along the lines of "The places where retirees are doing the best". A lot of questions just ask about if you have enough money to afford food, housing, and medical care. And even more are you in a healthy demographic. It isn't clear that if you take the same person and in one case they retire to MN and the other to Missisippi that they will have bad health, poor mental health, a disability, obesity, inability to sleep, no drug plan, and so on. Those numbers are at least as driven by what happened before as what you do in retirement.
Again I think there's some validity to that criticism. Some of the health and QOL items are a little like the drunk looking for his lost keys only under the lamp post, 'because that's where I can see'. It's a lot easier to get stats of the health of whole 65+ population than to collect 'stats' (what would they actually be?) on how a specific person will fare in healthcare moving from out of state to TN v. MN.

However I don't entirely agree this makes the healthcare ranking meaningless. First it also has a lot of measures which are per capita availability of HC resources, and a couple which which neither that nor the health of the population. And even the ones which are health of the state's existing (65+) population are not IMO 100% irrelevant to a newcomer. You will be competing, at 65+, with the existing population for access to care under basically the same health system, Medicare*, so it's better for you if they aren't as sick. And also to *some* degree, not in all cases by any means, a prevailing culture of poorer health habits *might* in fact have some effect on you.

*not all 65+ people use only Medicare, there's VA and other. There are add ons to Medicare. Some people pay for non-Medicare, some retirees are pre-Medicare, etc. But in general a lot of 65+ people depend on that system, different than working age where a lot of the worst off people are not competing with you for care because they rely on unreimbursed care for people with no insurance, insurance plans your provider doesn't take, etc. Whereas the single system of Medicare-accepting providers is presumably more stressed in relatively unhealthy MS than relatively healthy MN, even besides less resources per capita.

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by Jeff Albertson » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:36 am

Something to consider for Florida -
https://popula.com/2019/04/02/heaven-or-high-water/
The sea level in Miami has risen ten inches since 1900; in the 2000 years prior, it did not really change. The consensus among informed observers is that the sea will rise in Miami Beach somewhere between 13 and 34 inches by 2050. By 2100, it is extremely likely to be closer to six feet

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by AlphaLess » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:02 pm

Taylor Larimore wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:50 am
Bogleheads:

How does your state rank as a place to retire?

The best and worst U.S. states for retirement

Best wishes.
Taylor
Who is making this list?
Because a large percentage of "best and worst" articles on the internet are click-baits.
"A Republic, if you can keep it". Benjamin Franklin. 1787. | Party affiliation: Vanguard. Religion: low-cost investing.

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by AlphaLess » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:11 pm

One of the hardest things in "Best and Worst" lists is to appropriately account for the consumer's utility function.

So a simple model in which different features are weighted, and then added up to a score (a linear model, so to speak) lacks the knowledge of the utility of the consumer.

Let's take weather for example. To simplify, let's define: "near-perfect months of weather per year".
Most places have something like 6 to 12 months.
Someone might have a utility function such that 6-7 months of near-perfect weather is *ALMOST* as good as 11-12, and not willing to pay a dime to go from 6-7 to 11-12.
And other people might value incremental months above and beyond 6, and willing to pay $x/Y for additional month of nice weather.

If everybody's utility function and financial means were the same, we probably would have very different economics.
"A Republic, if you can keep it". Benjamin Franklin. 1787. | Party affiliation: Vanguard. Religion: low-cost investing.

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by LadyGeek » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:40 pm

I removed several off-topic posts. If anyone disagrees with a moderator, do not post it here. See: Member Rights in a Dispute , 2nd paragraph.

Instead, report the post using the ! in the upper right corner of the post and explain what's wrong. Or, PM me directly.

That being said, let's try discussing the impact of weather on your choice of retirement location - but without opinions of climate change (off-topic).
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by randomguy » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:22 pm

AlphaLess wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:11 pm
One of the hardest things in "Best and Worst" lists is to appropriately account for the consumer's utility function.

So a simple model in which different features are weighted, and then added up to a score (a linear model, so to speak) lacks the knowledge of the utility of the consumer.

Let's take weather for example. To simplify, let's define: "near-perfect months of weather per year".
Most places have something like 6 to 12 months.
Someone might have a utility function such that 6-7 months of near-perfect weather is *ALMOST* as good as 11-12, and not willing to pay a dime to go from 6-7 to 11-12.
And other people might value incremental months above and beyond 6, and willing to pay $x/Y for additional month of nice weather.

If everybody's utility function and financial means were the same, we probably would have very different economics.
At a high level with this type of list it would be nice to hit ignore/change the weights on a bunch of the factors. Maybe you don't care about golf course. Maybe you don't care about how many people over 65 are single in that state (yes that was one of the factors). Maybe you aren't concerned about the number of people over 65 who don't have a drug plan.

I also think that for most states other than a couple of the New England ones, you really need to break it down a lot more fine grained than the state level. New York City and Syracuse share similar state tax codes but the rest of the details are vastly different. Most states are similar.

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by josehde » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:30 pm

protagonist wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:23 pm
Ranking places like this is little more than clickbait.
The best place to retire is where you want to live, not some place that fits an arbitrary equation. And by the time you are 65, you should have at least a pretty good idea of where that is. It might be where you can afford, but might also be where your family lives, where it is warm and you can go to the beach, where there is the best fly fishing, where there are the best art galleries, whatever floats your boat.
Ask people where they want to retire....I doubt that a lot of people will pick #2 SD .
I wholeheartedly agree. I see the appeal of the states higher in the list, but the ranking will ultimately matter little to my decision eventually.

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by typical.investor » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:47 pm

btenny wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:16 pm
Arizona is down to 14 on this list which is fine by me. That will stop some from moving there. But I am surprised at their numbers as they seem wrong on affordability and quality of life vs say Virginia and Utah. Plus I see no reason why Minnesota is so much higher than Florida and Arizona in QOL. Up there you have to hibernate for six months to not freeze.

I think this study is all wound around population averages and all the poor immigrants and poor native americans in AZ and NM and Texas are making the data conclusion wrong. Bad statistics again.
Poor immigrants and poor Native Americans don't seem to be part of the measures.

But I guess if those immigrants and Native Americans are old, hungry, socially isolated, abused, can't find work, have to drink bad water and breathe bad air, they'd show up in the quality of life stats. Bad weather is given double weight too. MN has its share of both immigrants and Native Americans I think. Most refugees per capita 2018.

Quality of Life – Total Points: 30
  • Share of Population Aged 65 Years and Older: Double Weight (~2.61 Points)
  • Risk of Social Isolation: Full Weight (~1.30 Points)
    Note: This metric considers the following six risk factors of social isolation in population aged 65 years and older: a) Divorced, separated or widowed; b) Never married; c) Poverty; d) Disability; e) Independent Living Difficulty and f) Living alone.
  • Elderly-Friendly Labor Market: Full Weight (~1.30 Points)
    Note: This metric takes into account both the percentage of population aged 65 years and older working and the number of part time employees for every full time employee for population aged 65 years and older.
  • Share of Population Aged 65 Years and Older in Poverty: Full Weight (~1.30 Points)
  • Elderly Food Insecurity Rate: Full Weight (~1.30 Points)
    Note: This metric refers to the percentage of population aged 60 years and older who faced the threat of hunger in the past 12 months.
  • Expenditures Captured by the Administration on Aging per Population Aged 60 Years and Older: Full Weight (~1.30 Points)
    Note: The Older Americans Act (OAA) is administered by the Administration on Aging. It funds “personal care, congregate meals, transportation and nutrition-education programs for seniors.”
  • Access to Public Transportation: Full Weight (~1.30 Points)
    Note: This metric measures the percentage of commuters who use public transit as a proxy for the availability of public transportation.
  • Mildness of Weather: Double Weight (~2.61 Points)
    Note: This metric is based on WalletHub’s Cities with the Best & Worst Weather ranking.
  • Access to Scenic Byways: Full Weight (~1.30 Points)
    Note: This metric takes into account both the number of scenic byways and the length of scenic byways.
  • Shoreline Mileage: Full Weight (~1.30 Points)
  • Museums per Capita*: Full Weight (~1.30 Points)
  • Theaters per Capita*: Full Weight (~1.30 Points)
  • Golf Courses per Capita*: Full Weight (~1.30 Points)
  • Access to Adult Volunteer Activities: Full Weight (~1.30 Points)
    Note: This metric measures the number of rated charity organizations per capita*.
  • Elderly Volunteer Rate: Full Weight (~1.30 Points)
  • Share of Residents Who Do Favors to Their Neighbors (proxy for Neighborhood Friendliness): Full Weight (~1.30 Points)
  • Violent-Crime Rate: Full Weight (~1.30 Points)
  • Property-Crime Rate: Full Weight (~1.30 Points)
  • Quality of Elder-Abuse Protections: Full Weight (~1.30 Points)
    Note: This metric is based on WalletHub’s States with the Best Elder-Abuse Protections ranking.
  • Air Quality: Full Weight (~1.30 Points)
  • Drinking-Water Quality: Full Weight (~1.30 Points)
    Note: This metric measures the percentage of the population potentially exposed to water exceeding a violation limit.
Which of those are important to you? Ice fishing maybe?

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by samsoes » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:57 am

brokendirtdart wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:02 pm

...Mass is completely out for me as they forbid, outright restrict, or price out several recreational favorites that I have acquired over the last 26+ years of PCSing and living life.
HUH? :confused

Please translate.
"Happiness Is Not My Companion" - Gen. Gouverneur K. Warren. | (Avatar is the statue of Gen. Warren atop Little Round Top @ Gettysburg National Military Park.)

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by brokendirtdart » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:37 am

samsoes wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:57 am
brokendirtdart wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:02 pm

...Mass is completely out for me as they forbid, outright restrict, or price out several recreational favorites that I have acquired over the last 26+ years of PCSing and living life.
HUH? :confused

Please translate.
Mass has several arbitrary restrictions on law abiding citizens that you don't see in other states. I'll leave it at that, but it adversely affects some of my expensive hobbies and quality of life.
PCS = Permanent Change of Station (AKA moving for work)

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by samsoes » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:56 am

brokendirtdart wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:37 am
samsoes wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:57 am
brokendirtdart wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:02 pm

...Mass is completely out for me as they forbid, outright restrict, or price out several recreational favorites that I have acquired over the last 26+ years of PCSing and living life.
HUH? :confused

Please translate.
Mass has several arbitrary restrictions on law abiding citizens that you don't see in other states. I'll leave it at that, but it adversely affects some of my expensive hobbies and quality of life.
PCS = Permanent Change of Station (AKA moving for work)
Are you referring to legal, recreational use of firearms?

(Don't be afraid of words!)
"Happiness Is Not My Companion" - Gen. Gouverneur K. Warren. | (Avatar is the statue of Gen. Warren atop Little Round Top @ Gettysburg National Military Park.)

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by Presintense » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:05 am

S&L1940 wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:58 pm

Truth be known (or my opinion), any state that offers a climate that gets people outside to walk or play (where tennis and golf can be played all year long) is a good place to be.
There is a lot to be said for longevity
+1.
Performance = Potential - Distraction

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by dave_k » Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:49 am

samsoes wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:56 am
brokendirtdart wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:37 am
samsoes wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:57 am
brokendirtdart wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:02 pm

...Mass is completely out for me as they forbid, outright restrict, or price out several recreational favorites that I have acquired over the last 26+ years of PCSing and living life.
HUH? :confused

Please translate.
Mass has several arbitrary restrictions on law abiding citizens that you don't see in other states. I'll leave it at that, but it adversely affects some of my expensive hobbies and quality of life.
PCS = Permanent Change of Station (AKA moving for work)
Are you referring to legal, recreational use of firearms?

(Don't be afraid of words!)
I was wondering that too, but I have a family member in MA with a concealed carry permit and a collection of guns, so I'm not sure.

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by AerialWombat » Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:54 am

Tycoon wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:58 pm
South Dakota? I don't think I've ever heard, or read, of anyone retiring to South Dakota. Maybe it's the hidden gem I've been searching for.
Everything you’ve never heard about South Dakota is true. Come give it a whirl. Recently relocated from Seattle area to the western side of SD, and it’s good. Of course, I grew up in WY and MT, so this ain’t far from “home”.
“Life doesn’t come with a warranty.” -Michael LeBoeuf

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by mrsbetsy » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:26 am

I think the United States of Well-Being would be a better guide.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/happiest ... 57429.html


These are the qualifiers:

Career: liking what you do each day and being motivated to achieve your goals

Social: having supportive relationships and love in your life

Financial: managing your economic life to reduce stress and increase security

Community: liking where you live, feeling safe and having pride in your community

Physical: having good health and enough energy to get things done daily

protagonist
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by protagonist » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:29 pm

samsoes wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:56 am
brokendirtdart wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:37 am
samsoes wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:57 am
brokendirtdart wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:02 pm

...Mass is completely out for me as they forbid, outright restrict, or price out several recreational favorites that I have acquired over the last 26+ years of PCSing and living life.
HUH? :confused

Please translate.
Mass has several arbitrary restrictions on law abiding citizens that you don't see in other states. I'll leave it at that, but it adversely affects some of my expensive hobbies and quality of life.
PCS = Permanent Change of Station (AKA moving for work)
Are you referring to legal, recreational use of firearms?

(Don't be afraid of words!)
MY humble advice....if so, youmay not want to answer that question, as it may lead to contentious arguments over gun rights, which I imagine the admin's will rapidly respond to by shutting the thread down as it would violate policy. Just a friendly suggestion......

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samsoes
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by samsoes » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:05 pm

protagonist wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:29 pm
samsoes wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:56 am
brokendirtdart wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:37 am
samsoes wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:57 am
brokendirtdart wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:02 pm

...Mass is completely out for me as they forbid, outright restrict, or price out several recreational favorites that I have acquired over the last 26+ years of PCSing and living life.
HUH? :confused

Please translate.
Mass has several arbitrary restrictions on law abiding citizens that you don't see in other states. I'll leave it at that, but it adversely affects some of my expensive hobbies and quality of life.
PCS = Permanent Change of Station (AKA moving for work)
Are you referring to legal, recreational use of firearms?

(Don't be afraid of words!)
MY humble advice....if so, youmay not want to answer that question, as it may lead to contentious arguments over gun rights, which I imagine the admin's will rapidly respond to by shutting the thread down as it would violate policy. Just a friendly suggestion......
Thanks, but the discussion of legal activities is not against forum rules. In fact, not that long ago, there was a lengthy thread regarding personal preferences folks had for legal firearms (brands, types, pros and cons of each, etc.)
"Happiness Is Not My Companion" - Gen. Gouverneur K. Warren. | (Avatar is the statue of Gen. Warren atop Little Round Top @ Gettysburg National Military Park.)

protagonist
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by protagonist » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:23 pm

samsoes wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:05 pm
protagonist wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:29 pm
samsoes wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:56 am
brokendirtdart wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:37 am
samsoes wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:57 am


HUH? :confused

Please translate.
Mass has several arbitrary restrictions on law abiding citizens that you don't see in other states. I'll leave it at that, but it adversely affects some of my expensive hobbies and quality of life.
PCS = Permanent Change of Station (AKA moving for work)
Are you referring to legal, recreational use of firearms?

(Don't be afraid of words!)
MY humble advice....if so, you may not want to answer that question, as it may lead to contentious arguments over gun rights, which I imagine the admin's will rapidly respond to by shutting the thread down as it would violate policy. Just a friendly suggestion......
Thanks, but the discussion of legal activities is not against forum rules. In fact, not that long ago, there was a lengthy thread regarding personal preferences folks had for legal firearms (brands, types, pros and cons of each, etc.)
I apologize if I am wrong. I could just imagine this getting very political and argumentative, regarding state laws and right to own firearms (to quote brokendirt, "arbitrary restrictions on law abiding citizens") ,rather than consumer issues regarding guns as per your example. I would hate to see the OP lose this thread over that. Hopefully not. (smile)

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by LadyGeek » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:02 pm

To be clear, we do have firearms discussions in this forum (what to purchase, etc.). Discussion on the right to own a firearm is off-topic (not a consumer nor a financial topic).

Please stay on-topic, which is deciding where to retire.
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McCharley
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by McCharley » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:42 pm

If Hawaii isn't #1 then their algorithm is wrong.

Alf 101
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by Alf 101 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:57 am

I wonder if anyone has found a reliable link, knowing bias exists in any analysis, of best states for retirement from a solely financial basis?

Let's just say that if I end up in retirement like Scrooge McDuck, I will be posting here from either my Italian villa, Fiji beach resort, or Scandinavian castle. Money solves many problems, and is why many of us take our retirement savings so seriously, as it can translate into options and freedom. If you want to retire in Minnesota, for example, you can afford it.

As many have already mentioned, people generally stay near family and their social network. That network can also have financial benefits (e.g., a family member coming over to help, instead of hiring someone), as well as connections whose value can't be quantified. That said, people will also follow personal preference -- the climate they like, urban vs. rural, access to recreation and culture.

But let's say my results are middling going into retirement -- big unexpected expenses, forced into early retirement, and/or decades long market downturns. If we want to downsize, and move where we can stretch our retirement savings the furthest, where do we go? Low cost of living, favorable tax situation, and reasonable real estate prices may be among the obvious factors.

Let's hope it doesn't come to it. But it seems a reasonable planning consideration...

randomguy
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by randomguy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:04 am

Alf 101 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:57 am
I wonder if anyone has found a reliable link, knowing bias exists in any analysis, of best states for retirement from a solely financial basis?

Let's just say that if I end up in retirement like Scrooge McDuck, I will be posting here from either my Italian villa, Fiji beach resort, or Scandinavian castle. Money solves many problems, and is why many of us take our retirement savings so seriously, as it can translate into options and freedom. If you want to retire in Minnesota, for example, you can afford it.

As many have already mentioned, people generally stay near family and their social network. That network can also have financial benefits (e.g., a family member coming over to help, instead of hiring someone), as well as connections whose value can't be quantified. That said, people will also follow personal preference -- the climate they like, urban vs. rural, access to recreation and culture.

But let's say my results are middling going into retirement -- big unexpected expenses, forced into early retirement, and/or decades long market downturns. If we want to downsize, and move where we can stretch our retirement savings the furthest, where do we go? Low cost of living, favorable tax situation, and reasonable real estate prices may be among the obvious factors.

Let's hope it doesn't come to it. But it seems a reasonable planning consideration...
Look at the affordability ranking from that list. Places like FL, Alabama, Misss, and Texas have really cheap COL (in general. Some of the cities are a bit pricey) from the combo of cheap houses and low taxes. Several of them have horrible health care so you might not live as long either:). Note that list does have some questionable items for this case. Depending on where you are at things like Inheritance probably don't matter AND even things like income taxes might not matter much. If you are living on 20k of SS and 10k of RMDs, your income tax burden any where in the US is almost 0. Property taxes probably matter more.

The next step is retiring outside of the US.

randomguy
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by randomguy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:17 am

JackoC wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:05 am

Again I think there's some validity to that criticism. Some of the health and QOL items are a little like the drunk looking for his lost keys only under the lamp post, 'because that's where I can see'. It's a lot easier to get stats of the health of whole 65+ population than to collect 'stats' (what would they actually be?) on how a specific person will fare in healthcare moving from out of state to TN v. MN.

However I don't entirely agree this makes the healthcare ranking meaningless. First it also has a lot of measures which are per capita availability of HC resources, and a couple which which neither that nor the health of the population. And even the ones which are health of the state's existing (65+) population are not IMO 100% irrelevant to a newcomer. You will be competing, at 65+, with the existing population for access to care under basically the same health system, Medicare*, so it's better for you if they aren't as sick. And also to *some* degree, not in all cases by any means, a prevailing culture of poorer health habits *might* in fact have some effect on you.

*not all 65+ people use only Medicare, there's VA and other. There are add ons to Medicare. Some people pay for non-Medicare, some retirees are pre-Medicare, etc. But in general a lot of 65+ people depend on that system, different than working age where a lot of the worst off people are not competing with you for care because they rely on unreimbursed care for people with no insurance, insurance plans your provider doesn't take, etc. Whereas the single system of Medicare-accepting providers is presumably more stressed in relatively unhealthy MS than relatively healthy MN, even besides less resources per capita.
Am I actually competing for resources (i.e. there are 100 beds and 110 people want them) or is the number of bed set by demand (there are 100 beds but only 95 people want them)? You would need to know things like wait time for procedures (how long does it take to get an MRI , surgery or even to see a MD) and maybe availability (i.e. are there less heart transplants because of lack of facilities or are their less heart transplants because of the population isn't healthy enough).

It would be fun to see all the actual data (i.e. imagine TN ranks decently # doctors/capital but horrible in say obseity. Thats a lot different situation than the reverse) but it doesn't seem to be there. I would also love to know why the QOL was so low. I lived there for several years. It was a pleasant place and I could see retiring in a place like Chattanooga or Nashville. Not so much some of the rural towns in between:)

chrisjul
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by chrisjul » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:24 am

S&L1940 wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:58 pm
Send out the word, Florida is full up
We have enough for now

Truth be known (or my opinion), any state that offers a climate that gets people outside to walk or play (where tennis and golf can be played all year long) is a good place to be.
There is a lot to be said for longevity
I agree...NO MORE ! Traffic is horrible, Snowbirds are obnoxious, go to SD!

finite_difference
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by finite_difference » Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:08 pm

celia wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:37 pm
Spirit Rider wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:39 pm
This study like all other attempts to apply an arbitrary and subjective model to a fixed set of metrics is of little real value.

This is true of things like Consumer Reports product evaluations, Morningstar mutual fund ratings, and Saving for College 529 plan ratings.

The overall scores/ratings are pretty much meaningless. The real value is drilling down to the compilation of the raw data and substituting your own prioritizations.
+99

Money magazine used to have a yearly column in the 1990s or 2000s called "Best Places to Retire" and about 30 places were listed out of the 2,000? or so that were even considered. After it came out, someone I know suggested that we should retire to place #1. I ignored it. The following year, that person suggested retiring to the new #1 place and I ignored her again. In the third year I asked if all the people from the first year's #1 are supposed to move to the next year's #1 and keep moving every year after that. No answer. Later we had a discussion about using different criteria each year and shifting priorities among all the criteria. The last year I saw the survey, they put it on their website (it's no longer there) so you could select your own criteria and weigh them according to what is most important to you and ignore the things that don't matter to you. Lo and behold, it turned out the "best place for DH and I to retire" is right where we were already living!
:sharebeer
I wish money magazine kept that website going.

Is there any other website you have found with similar capabilities?

I think my number 1 would be weather/climate, 2 affordability (including taxes), 3 decent healthcare, 4 desired activities available (astronomy/computer club, Tai Chi master, beach or skiing.)
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by celia » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:58 am

finite_difference wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:08 pm
I wish money magazine kept that website going.

Is there any other website you have found with similar capabilities?

I think my number 1 would be weather/climate, 2 affordability (including taxes), 3 decent healthcare, 4 desired activities available (astronomy/computer club, Tai Chi master, beach or skiing.)
I doubt it. It would be a lot of work to keep the data for 20 or 30 categories up to date for each town. For example, crime statistics change each year as well as affordability (as tax increases are approved by voters/legislatures) and expensive stores take over mom and pop shops. Even health accessibility changes as hospitals close or specialists leave an area. And who would pay for keeping the data updated?

Even when using your first criteria (weather) many of us may think weather is most important but one of us may define ‘good weather’ as having 4 seasons while another may want temperate temperatures or ‘anything but hurricanes/earthquakes’. So how would you define ‘good weather’ for those who want to prioritize it?

Another example is health care. One person may think having lots of hospitals would be good or access to many specialists (although the specialists needed by each of us is different). It doesn’t do me any good to have 100 specialists within x miles if the specialty I need is 500 miles away. Others see the wait time to see the doctor as important or that the billing dept does a good job so their bills are paid by insurance on the first billing attempt. Some people like more preventive care whereas an overall healthy lifestyle community might think they need more yoga instructors and health food stores. So do you just compare the number of doctors to the population count or look at the number of deaths per age to define good healthcare?

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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by KarenC » Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:39 am

finite_difference wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:08 pm
I wish money magazine kept that website going.

Is there any other website you have found with similar capabilities?

I think my number 1 would be weather/climate, 2 affordability (including taxes), 3 decent healthcare, 4 desired activities available (astronomy/computer club, Tai Chi master, beach or skiing.)
Perhaps https://www.bestplaces.net/?
"How much you know is less important than how clearly you understand where the borders of your ignorance begin." — Jason Zweig

vested1
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Re: "The best and worst U.S. states for retirement"

Post by vested1 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:08 am

Check out City Data, which has all the answers to the questions you're asking for a vast majority of American cities. Try to ignore the occasional political rant and negativity in the forums.

http://www.city-data.com/

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