I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

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Cmpliance
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I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by Cmpliance » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:57 am

As frugal as we are, I'm sure there are others on here that love cars. Some buy them for materialistic reasons but I buy them because of the experience and fun it provides but also because of the excitement of the search. I'm currently looking at cars in the $100-$150K. I buy cars that you can drive for "free". A car that has hit or close to hitting their depreciation floor, a car with well documented maintenance to prevent surprised and a car that often times can hold their value well for the next 1-3 years. I plan to put around 3,000 miles on the car a year, if that.

So with that said, do the majority of you just buy cash or use a loan to keep the cash liquid in case something comes up. What are your fun cars?

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Jimbo9911
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by Jimbo9911 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:12 am

Always pay cash.
And just because a vehicle has good maintenance records does not mean it will not break down.

Jim

bubbadog
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by bubbadog » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:26 am

I have the exact same car passion which also conflicts with my Boglehead conservative leanings.

I have bought and sold a few, but always limit my search to cars I believe are nearly fully depreciated and hopefully maybe even going up in value. My last two were a 2006 Honda S2000 and a 2005 Acura NSX. Those both worked out well.

I have always paid cash and purchased from private parties. Knock on wood, I have never had any major unexpected costs with any of my "fun" cars. Car enthusiast forums for whatever car I am interested in are a great place to find someone's garage queen example.

I enjoy the research and shopping for my next car.

BTW, do you know of anyone with a 2006-10 Aston Martin Vantage Roadster 6 speed manual for sale?

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midareff
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by midareff » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:30 am

The cash finance question depends on the offers at the time. I picked up some finance money from PenFed at 1.49% which let me keep that money in IT Tax-Ex at about 2.9% tax exempt dividends. I like using other peoples money to make money. My fun car is an AMG Benz.

livesoft
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by livesoft » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:34 am

HardHitter wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:57 am
So with that said, do the majority of you just buy cash or use a loan to keep the cash liquid in case something comes up. What are your fun cars?
I could pay cash, but I have gotten 0% loans for the last 3 car purchases. My daily driver is my fun car. Actually, it is not my daily driver because I often only drive one day a week. So I can say it is my only driver. It is a Subaru Outback 3.6R. It is a rather unassuming car and there are lots of similar cars like it around me, so that it does not stand out. But acceleration is smooth, quick, quiet. I like that it can go from 80 mph to 100 mph without complaining up a mountain highway in the couple of seconds needed to pass a truck.
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vitaflo
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by vitaflo » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:03 am

Just so we're clear you're talking about vintage cars in the $100k+ range? Cuz I would never buy a 6 figure car new, nor even one even a few years old unless you absolutely knew it would retain its value (IE, Dodge Demon). If you're buying the kind of cars that are listed on Bring A Trailer then I would have no qualms about buying, as long as you have the cash to do so. You would basically be renting those kind of vehicles.

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Cmpliance
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by Cmpliance » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:19 am

vitaflo wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:03 am
Just so we're clear you're talking about vintage cars in the $100k+ range? Cuz I would never buy a 6 figure car new, nor even one even a few years old unless you absolutely knew it would retain its value (IE, Dodge Demon). If you're buying the kind of cars that are listed on Bring A Trailer then I would have no qualms about buying, as long as you have the cash to do so. You would basically be renting those kind of vehicles.
Not vintage cars. For example, the last car I enjoyed was a Porsche 2007 911 Turbo. Bought and sold it for the same price.

Current cars I'm considering are

- 2016 Porsche GT4/Boxster Spyder
- 2015 Porsche GT3 -
- 2010-2011 Audi R8 V10

I've been potentially considering a fully depreciated early model Lamborghini Gallardo, but don't know yet

btenny
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by btenny » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:25 am

Please tell me what model of car that costs $100k and does not need lots of maintenance and special storage and will not depreciate? I see collecter cars and vettes for $40k to $80k that are OK to drive and OK to take care of but anything over $100k is a park it and look at it car.

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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by whodidntante » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:32 am

bubbadog wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:26 am


BTW, do you know of anyone with a 2006-10 Aston Martin Vantage Roadster 6 speed manual for sale?
There is a modified v12 Vantage near me that I wish you'd buy. I've never been so thoroughly embarrassed on the track.

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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by stoptothink » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:33 am

btenny wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:25 am
Please tell me what model of car that costs $100k and does not need lots of maintenance and special storage and will not depreciate? I see collecter cars and vettes for $40k to $80k that are OK to drive and OK to take care of but anything over $100k is a park it and look at it car.
I'd be curious to know how many miles are being put on these cars.

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Cmpliance
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by Cmpliance » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:36 am

btenny wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:25 am
Please tell me what model of car that costs $100k and does not need lots of maintenance and special storage and will not depreciate? I see collecter cars and vettes for $40k to $80k that are OK to drive and OK to take care of but anything over $100k is a park it and look at it car.
This is a common misconception. Do your research on the cars and there are plenty of cars. Special storage? Why? I drove my last car for a year and sold it for the same amount I bought it for.

sambb
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by sambb » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:47 am

Ive owned several cars, all sorts and even exotics.
My advice is to pick popular exotics or brands, 1-3 years old, pay cash or 0% and enjoy them. For italian exotics, can go older since they are more stable. My only regret is not driving them more, and causing more depreciation - they have been fun.
If you can afford it, go for it. I think the GT3 and GT4 are more trackable, but not as nice on the street as a 911 T.

OffGridder
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by OffGridder » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:55 am

livesoft wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:34 am
HardHitter wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:57 am
So with that said, do the majority of you just buy cash or use a loan to keep the cash liquid in case something comes up. What are your fun cars?
I could pay cash, but I have gotten 0% loans for the last 3 car purchases.
But aren't those 0% loans subsidized by a higher purchase price than could be negotiated by paying cash?
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cherijoh
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by cherijoh » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:07 pm

HardHitter wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:57 am
As frugal as we are, I'm sure there are others on here that love cars. Some buy them for materialistic reasons but I buy them because of the experience and fun it provides but also because of the excitement of the search. I'm currently looking at cars in the $100-$150K. I buy cars that you can drive for "free". A car that has hit or close to hitting their depreciation floor, a car with well documented maintenance to prevent surprised and a car that often times can hold their value well for the next 1-3 years. I plan to put around 3,000 miles on the car a year, if that.

So with that said, do the majority of you just buy cash or use a loan to keep the cash liquid in case something comes up. What are your fun cars?
How much is your insurance on a $100+K car? How much is regular maintenance? I don't think you are driving it for "free" (even on an incremental basis) if you consider all the stuff that is more expensive than for a regular car.

livesoft
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by livesoft » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:18 pm

OffGridder wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:55 am
But aren't those 0% loans subsidized by a higher purchase price than could be negotiated by paying cash?
Maybe for some people, but I always start off negotiating a price for a cash purchase.
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Cmpliance
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by Cmpliance » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:23 pm

cherijoh wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:07 pm
HardHitter wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:57 am
As frugal as we are, I'm sure there are others on here that love cars. Some buy them for materialistic reasons but I buy them because of the experience and fun it provides but also because of the excitement of the search. I'm currently looking at cars in the $100-$150K. I buy cars that you can drive for "free". A car that has hit or close to hitting their depreciation floor, a car with well documented maintenance to prevent surprised and a car that often times can hold their value well for the next 1-3 years. I plan to put around 3,000 miles on the car a year, if that.

So with that said, do the majority of you just buy cash or use a loan to keep the cash liquid in case something comes up. What are your fun cars?
How much is your insurance on a $100+K car? How much is regular maintenance? I don't think you are driving it for "free" (even on an incremental basis) if you consider all the stuff that is more expensive than for a regular car.
You're basically saying its not free because you have to pay for gas to drive it. What I'm focused on are depreciation and maintenance. For example, the Porsche GT3 is a 2015 which brand new was $150-$155K. 4 years later with 16K miles, they are selling for $125-$130K range. So you have to ask yourself, are you OK with spending $20-$25K to enjoy your dream car for a few years before you move on to your next toy.

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Cmpliance
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by Cmpliance » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:26 pm

livesoft wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:18 pm
OffGridder wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:55 am
But aren't those 0% loans subsidized by a higher purchase price than could be negotiated by paying cash?
Maybe for some people, but I always start off negotiating a price for a cash purchase.
If you're buying from dealerships, which you never should, dealerships make their margin on financing. Negotiate as if you're going to finance and then once you get the price you want, pay cash.

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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:35 pm

If you're looking for no depreciation, look now for any exotic with a manual. LP640s and even Gallardos with manuals are getting expensive. The V12 Lambos can be double the price over an auto. Audi R8, probably too late for an F430. Evora 400 is an absolute bargain for its construction and what it is.
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cherijoh
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by cherijoh » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:51 pm

HardHitter wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:23 pm
cherijoh wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:07 pm
HardHitter wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:57 am
As frugal as we are, I'm sure there are others on here that love cars. Some buy them for materialistic reasons but I buy them because of the experience and fun it provides but also because of the excitement of the search. I'm currently looking at cars in the $100-$150K. I buy cars that you can drive for "free". A car that has hit or close to hitting their depreciation floor, a car with well documented maintenance to prevent surprised and a car that often times can hold their value well for the next 1-3 years. I plan to put around 3,000 miles on the car a year, if that.

So with that said, do the majority of you just buy cash or use a loan to keep the cash liquid in case something comes up. What are your fun cars?
How much is your insurance on a $100+K car? How much is regular maintenance? I don't think you are driving it for "free" (even on an incremental basis) if you consider all the stuff that is more expensive than for a regular car.
You're basically saying its not free because you have to pay for gas to drive it. What I'm focused on are depreciation and maintenance. For example, the Porsche GT3 is a 2015 which brand new was $150-$155K. 4 years later with 16K miles, they are selling for $125-$130K range. So you have to ask yourself, are you OK with spending $20-$25K to enjoy your dream car for a few years before you move on to your next toy.
No I'm not. If your car insurance increases by $X or an oil change is double the price of a regular car - those are incremental costs related direrctly to owning a car that expensive. If you think it is worth the extra operating expense that is your business, but don't kid yourself that it is free just because the car didn't depreciate.

If I were comparing two cars to buy, I would consider the difference in incremental operating expenses including gas mileage, whether one required the use of premium gas, the insurance costs, and standard maintenance costs. I'd also look at differences in depreciation and of course the original cost.

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Cmpliance
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by Cmpliance » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:00 pm

cherijoh wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:51 pm
HardHitter wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:23 pm
cherijoh wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:07 pm
HardHitter wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:57 am
As frugal as we are, I'm sure there are others on here that love cars. Some buy them for materialistic reasons but I buy them because of the experience and fun it provides but also because of the excitement of the search. I'm currently looking at cars in the $100-$150K. I buy cars that you can drive for "free". A car that has hit or close to hitting their depreciation floor, a car with well documented maintenance to prevent surprised and a car that often times can hold their value well for the next 1-3 years. I plan to put around 3,000 miles on the car a year, if that.

So with that said, do the majority of you just buy cash or use a loan to keep the cash liquid in case something comes up. What are your fun cars?
How much is your insurance on a $100+K car? How much is regular maintenance? I don't think you are driving it for "free" (even on an incremental basis) if you consider all the stuff that is more expensive than for a regular car.
You're basically saying its not free because you have to pay for gas to drive it. What I'm focused on are depreciation and maintenance. For example, the Porsche GT3 is a 2015 which brand new was $150-$155K. 4 years later with 16K miles, they are selling for $125-$130K range. So you have to ask yourself, are you OK with spending $20-$25K to enjoy your dream car for a few years before you move on to your next toy.
No I'm not. If your car insurance increases by $X or an oil change is double the price of a regular car - those are incremental costs related direrctly to owning a car that expensive. If you think it is worth the extra operating expense that is your business, but don't kid yourself that it is free just because the car didn't depreciate.

If I were comparing two cars to buy, I would consider the difference in incremental operating expenses including gas mileage, whether one required the use of premium gas, the insurance costs, and standard maintenance costs. I'd also look at differences in depreciation and of course the original cost.
I follow you but those who are looking at these cars, most likely aren't driving "basic" cars as their daily driver. The operating cost between my daily driver vs the cars I'm considering is an extra $1-$2K a year if that. If someone is worried about that kind of cost, then they are not looking at these types of cars. What you want to protect yourself against are things like what happened with Mclaren MP4-12C. $300K+ cars now selling for $110-$130K after just 5-7 years and/or less than 20k miles put on it. On top of that, known to be very problematic/expensive to maintain.

bubbadog
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by bubbadog » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:59 pm

The Porsche GT3 and GT3 RS seem like reasonable bets considering your criteria. A car buddy of mine has one of each and he loves them.

Any interest in the new NSX? Used prices are probably around 130K with little to no miles.

sambb
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by sambb » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:11 pm

McLaren will never have resale

Look at F430s, even with F1 transmission. Also earlier 458s.
GT3 2015-6 is a good spot for little depreciation

Unfortunately, on most streets, the cayman S is superior or the base 911 T 2018-9 model, but they will depreciate more for a lower entry point.

letaPAS037
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by letaPAS037 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:27 pm

Just bought the new NSX. Money was cheap at 2.75 for 3 years so I put down just enough that I will never be “upside down” on the car. I see it strictly as a consumption item like any of my sports cars.

Absolutely love the car and will probably hang on to it even though I was skeptical before buying as a “purist”. Car feels completely natural despite its technical complexity and feels tossable as if it weights 800 pounds less than it does. Was cross shopping with McLaren 570s and for the money, I felt it was a much better buy. Hypercar tech and supercar performance for the price of a 911 GTS.

This may not meet your depreciation criteria however at this point in time.

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Cmpliance
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by Cmpliance » Fri May 03, 2019 8:31 am

Thought I'd bump this back up.

Since last, I've test driven a Porsche GT4. It definitely lacks the power that I'm used to coming from turbo based cars, but just feels "special". I think if I go forward with something, it may be with the GT4 first and then "step up" to a GT3 in the future. Still open to exploring other options.

itsgot8
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by itsgot8 » Fri May 03, 2019 12:22 pm

Cmpliance wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 8:31 am
Thought I'd bump this back up.

Since last, I've test driven a Porsche GT4. It definitely lacks the power that I'm used to coming from turbo based cars, but just feels "special". I think if I go forward with something, it may be with the GT4 first and then "step up" to a GT3 in the future. Still open to exploring other options.
GT4 is what, ~$90k? Then going up to a GT3 that starts around $144k? Why not split the difference and buy a used GT3?

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Cmpliance
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by Cmpliance » Tue May 07, 2019 11:16 am

itsgot8 wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 12:22 pm
Cmpliance wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 8:31 am
Thought I'd bump this back up.

Since last, I've test driven a Porsche GT4. It definitely lacks the power that I'm used to coming from turbo based cars, but just feels "special". I think if I go forward with something, it may be with the GT4 first and then "step up" to a GT3 in the future. Still open to exploring other options.
GT4 is what, ~$90k? Then going up to a GT3 that starts around $144k? Why not split the difference and buy a used GT3?
GT4 is $85-$90K range. Used 991.1 GT3 is around $130K range but PDK only. Manual didn't come in the GT3 until 991.2 model (2018+)

randomguy
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by randomguy » Tue May 07, 2019 2:16 pm

Cmpliance wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:00 pm


I follow you but those who are looking at these cars, most likely aren't driving "basic" cars as their daily driver. The operating cost between my daily driver vs the cars I'm considering is an extra $1-$2K a year if that. If someone is worried about that kind of cost, then they are not looking at these types of cars. What you want to protect yourself against are things like what happened with Mclaren MP4-12C. $300K+ cars now selling for $110-$130K after just 5-7 years and/or less than 20k miles put on it. On top of that, known to be very problematic/expensive to maintain.
Thats a long way from free. When I think of people driving free cars, it is the ones who buy a 50k car, drive it for 5 years and then sell it for 60k. But those are cars that are much farther along the depreciation curve (i.e. the 30+ year old cars) than what you are talking about. There a few of these high end cars that you can buy 2 years used and sell it in 4 years for what you paid for it but they are definitely the exceptions. I had a friend who did this with a Ferarri a decade ago. The wait list to buy a new one was like 18 months so that people that wanted one but didn't want to wait were willing pay a lot for a used one. So my friend basically bought it new and sold it in 2 years for what he paid for it (obviously lost money on taxes and maintenance).

I am not sure what you are looking at as an alternative to get the cost difference that low. If your alternative to a 200k MSRP GT3 is something like a 90k M3 (a really nice car but a clear notch or two below what we are talking about. Not really sure what alternative 100k-120 new MSRP cars would be. You run into a lot of size, weight, and power choices that are pretty personal), I would expect a much larger difference when you are buying both of them 3-5 years used. The opportunity cost alone of having to lock up another 50k+ is going to be 3 or 4k/year. Obviously at the end you have to decide what it is worth to you. Spending say 8k/year on something that makes you happy every day is a great investment if you have the 8k AND there isn't another use of the money that will make you happier. Just like anything else in life.

That being said, I wouldn't cheap out on something like this. If you go through life thinking I should have bought x but I bought y to save a couple of bucks, you end up overpaying for a car (could have bought a civic and been just as unhappy) and not getting the benefits (joy of driving what you want). Accept that you paying a crap load for you hobby and enjoy it. You just need to find the most affordable way to scratch your itch.

teamDE
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by teamDE » Tue May 07, 2019 3:42 pm

I'm a car guy, but have about zero passion for a street car. If you really like driving, get into racing where you can put that $100k to good use! :)

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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by phxjcc » Tue May 07, 2019 6:47 pm

bubbadog wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:26 am
I have the exact same car passion which also conflicts with my Boglehead conservative leanings.

I have bought and sold a few, but always limit my search to cars I believe are nearly fully depreciated and hopefully maybe even going up in value. My last two were a 2006 Honda S2000 and a 2005 Acura NSX. Those both worked out well.

I have always paid cash and purchased from private parties. Knock on wood, I have never had any major unexpected costs with any of my "fun" cars. Car enthusiast forums for whatever car I am interested in are a great place to find someone's garage queen example.

I enjoy the research and shopping for my next car.

BTW, do you know of anyone with a 2006-10 Aston Martin Vantage Roadster 6 speed manual for sale?
https://bringatrailer.com/auctions/

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RootSki
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by RootSki » Tue May 07, 2019 9:08 pm

OP I like you plan. Hopefully one day when I’m ready I can play “what do I drive this year?” also.

jello_nailer
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by jello_nailer » Tue May 07, 2019 9:15 pm

I've had 3 GT3's and a 996TTx50.

All the GT3's I drove for free - as in all the cost, PPI, sales tax, gas, insurance, minor repairs, maintenance was covered by the 5 figure increase in value that I put in my pocket. The TT was a wash, drove it for free but didn't pocket any cash at the sale.

The only way to do this is to buy it a the right price - you can't go to the dealer and pay retail, then trade it later at wholesale. One GT3 I bought in Bozeman, it was a GUD, Geographically Un-Desireable, which meant better price. But it did give me a chance for a great drive, I mean adventure, home. Made it from Denver to Houston in one day, by myself. How do you say gumball rally?

The GT3RS are getting so special I'm not sure I would want to street drive it and the GT3RS 4.0, no chance I would drive. Pure investment car.

SeaToTheBay
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by SeaToTheBay » Wed May 08, 2019 12:21 pm

A year and a half ago, my wife had the idea of a "car fund" (bless her heart), which is funded by a % of my bonuses and raises. She has also contributed chunks when I've helped her recruit for new/better jobs. Definitely a keeper.

My goal was to accumulate $100-120k for a similar car within five years and I'm on track for that. F430 Spider is my favorite of my prospects, but of course comes with some scary potential repair bills.

In August of last year, for various reasons I decided to spend the majority of what I had accumulated to that point on a Lotus Elise for $32k - what sealed the deal for me was reading on FerrariChat so many people who said it was the most fun car they've owned/driven. It is indeed a blast, does not depreciate, and doesn't cost much to own either, if you can keep the fiberglass body in good shape. I figure I can own it for the time being while I accumulate more and then sell without disrupting my savings/growth too much. I may even love it so much I decide not to "upgrade"...
Cmpliance wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:19 am
Current cars I'm considering are

- 2016 Porsche GT4/Boxster Spyder
- 2015 Porsche GT3 -
- 2010-2011 Audi R8 V10

I've been potentially considering a fully depreciated early model Lamborghini Gallardo, but don't know yet
Funny, my list is identical, except adding 2010-11 GT3 and F430 Spider. All manual, all convertible if possible.
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:35 pm
If you're looking for no depreciation, look now for any exotic with a manual. LP640s and even Gallardos with manuals are getting expensive. The V12 Lambos can be double the price over an auto. Audi R8, probably too late for an F430. Evora 400 is an absolute bargain for its construction and what it is.
F430 is sadly already a 40-50% premium with a manual. I hear there's a shop that does manual conversions now for about $30k, which sounds more appetizing when you consider the manual eliminates a lot of potential expensive repairs/maint associated with the F1 box.

I'm surprised the R8 manuals (esp. V10) are as low as they are. Practically no premium vs. even the shoddy earlier single-clutch R-tronic.
letaPAS037 wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:27 pm
Just bought the new NSX.

Absolutely love the car and will probably hang on to it even though I was skeptical before buying as a “purist”. Car feels completely natural despite its technical complexity and feels tossable as if it weights 800 pounds less than it does. Was cross shopping with McLaren 570s and for the money, I felt it was a much better buy. Hypercar tech and supercar performance for the price of a 911 GTS.
Drove one and was incredibly impressed with the capability and comfort. Although the NSX has depreciated quite a bit to date, the good thing about exotics is they have somewhat of a floor. I don't think you'll ever see something as capable or exotic-looking as a 2nd gen NSX selling for say $60k for example.

crystalbank
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by crystalbank » Wed May 08, 2019 1:20 pm

SeaToTheBay wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 12:21 pm
...
I'm surprised the R8 manuals (esp. V10) are as low as they are. Practically no premium vs. even the shoddy earlier single-clutch R-tronic.
...
Audi's historically never had a 'premium' for their desirable models. Even the legendary Audi Quattro only recently spiked in value. But relatively, it's still not that expensive compared to unicorn models of other brands in that era. If the R8 were a P-Car, it would definitely hold it's value much better IMHO. But hey, that's great news if you're in the market for an R8 6-speed.

stoptothink
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by stoptothink » Wed May 08, 2019 2:11 pm

SeaToTheBay wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 12:21 pm
A year and a half ago, my wife had the idea of a "car fund" (bless her heart), which is funded by a % of my bonuses and raises. She has also contributed chunks when I've helped her recruit for new/better jobs. Definitely a keeper.

My goal was to accumulate $100-120k for a similar car within five years and I'm on track for that. F430 Spider is my favorite of my prospects, but of course comes with some scary potential repair bills.

In August of last year, for various reasons I decided to spend the majority of what I had accumulated to that point on a Lotus Elise for $32k - what sealed the deal for me was reading on FerrariChat so many people who said it was the most fun car they've owned/driven. It is indeed a blast, does not depreciate, and doesn't cost much to own either, if you can keep the fiberglass body in good shape. I figure I can own it for the time being while I accumulate more and then sell without disrupting my savings/growth too much. I may even love it so much I decide not to "upgrade"...
Cmpliance wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:19 am
Current cars I'm considering are

- 2016 Porsche GT4/Boxster Spyder
- 2015 Porsche GT3 -
- 2010-2011 Audi R8 V10

I've been potentially considering a fully depreciated early model Lamborghini Gallardo, but don't know yet
Funny, my list is identical, except adding 2010-11 GT3 and F430 Spider. All manual, all convertible if possible.
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:35 pm
If you're looking for no depreciation, look now for any exotic with a manual. LP640s and even Gallardos with manuals are getting expensive. The V12 Lambos can be double the price over an auto. Audi R8, probably too late for an F430. Evora 400 is an absolute bargain for its construction and what it is.
F430 is sadly already a 40-50% premium with a manual. I hear there's a shop that does manual conversions now for about $30k, which sounds more appetizing when you consider the manual eliminates a lot of potential expensive repairs/maint associated with the F1 box.

I'm surprised the R8 manuals (esp. V10) are as low as they are. Practically no premium vs. even the shoddy earlier single-clutch R-tronic.
letaPAS037 wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:27 pm
Just bought the new NSX.

Absolutely love the car and will probably hang on to it even though I was skeptical before buying as a “purist”. Car feels completely natural despite its technical complexity and feels tossable as if it weights 800 pounds less than it does. Was cross shopping with McLaren 570s and for the money, I felt it was a much better buy. Hypercar tech and supercar performance for the price of a 911 GTS.
Drove one and was incredibly impressed with the capability and comfort. Although the NSX has depreciated quite a bit to date, the good thing about exotics is they have somewhat of a floor. I don't think you'll ever see something as capable or exotic-looking as a 2nd gen NSX selling for say $60k for example.
One of my childhood best friends just a bought a new NSX. He also has a F430, a model S, a 60's Porsche kit car, a supercharged Range Rover, BMW S1000rr, and a dune buggie with a heavily modified WRX sti engine (400+ hp) in the garage (he doe OK). The only one I haven't taken a spin in is the NSX; that's on the docket for our family vacation in September. He raves about the NSX.

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Kenkat
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by Kenkat » Wed May 08, 2019 3:21 pm

Is there any concern that this ability to drive an exotic, high end auto for a year or two and sell it for what you paid or more is a temporary anomaly bolstered by a strong economy and demand that may not last? Is there perhaps a bubble here? Is anyone worried about getting stuck (if the bubble exists and pops) at some point? Or are these cars just naturally scarce and always in demand?

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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by crossbow » Wed May 08, 2019 6:15 pm

Cmpliance wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:19 am
vitaflo wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:03 am
Just so we're clear you're talking about vintage cars in the $100k+ range? Cuz I would never buy a 6 figure car new, nor even one even a few years old unless you absolutely knew it would retain its value (IE, Dodge Demon). If you're buying the kind of cars that are listed on Bring A Trailer then I would have no qualms about buying, as long as you have the cash to do so. You would basically be renting those kind of vehicles.
Not vintage cars. For example, the last car I enjoyed was a Porsche 2007 911 Turbo. Bought and sold it for the same price.

Current cars I'm considering are

- 2016 Porsche GT4/Boxster Spyder
- 2015 Porsche GT3 -
- 2010-2011 Audi R8 V10

I've been potentially considering a fully depreciated early model Lamborghini Gallardo, but don't know yet
Wouldn't the insurance cost on cars like these be through the roof?

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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by TOM1964 » Wed May 08, 2019 6:19 pm

Kenkat wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 3:21 pm
Is there any concern that this ability to drive an exotic, high end auto for a year or two and sell it for what you paid or more is a temporary anomaly bolstered by a strong economy and demand that may not last? Is there perhaps a bubble here? Is anyone worried about getting stuck (if the bubble exists and pops) at some point? Or are these cars just naturally scarce and always in demand?
Spot on. I remember lots of talk like this in 1999. The market has been so strong for so long, even the Bogleheads are buying Ferraris and GT3’s. Imagine what people who are less careful with money are into? :twisted:

I’m a car guy too, though I play at much lower altitudes (TR/MG/AH) and I don’t want to spoil anyone’s fun by going Full Puritan. But I am uneasy, and I see signs of a market top all around me now. This entire thread might be an example of that. Or not.

I am not a market timer, and I am not changing anything in my investment plan or AA. But this idea of driving exotic cars for “free” strikes me as bubbleicious.

tmcc
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by tmcc » Wed May 08, 2019 9:08 pm

TOM1964 wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 6:19 pm
Kenkat wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 3:21 pm
Is there any concern that this ability to drive an exotic, high end auto for a year or two and sell it for what you paid or more is a temporary anomaly bolstered by a strong economy and demand that may not last? Is there perhaps a bubble here? Is anyone worried about getting stuck (if the bubble exists and pops) at some point? Or are these cars just naturally scarce and always in demand?
Spot on. I remember lots of talk like this in 1999. The market has been so strong for so long, even the Bogleheads are buying Ferraris and GT3’s. Imagine what people who are less careful with money are into? :twisted:

I’m a car guy too, though I play at much lower altitudes (TR/MG/AH) and I don’t want to spoil anyone’s fun by going Full Puritan. But I am uneasy, and I see signs of a market top all around me now. This entire thread might be an example of that. Or not.

I am not a market timer, and I am not changing anything in my investment plan or AA. But this idea of driving exotic cars for “free” strikes me as bubbleicious.
well optioned and looked after Porsches have been retaining value for far far longer than just 2011+. new money has definitely added a substantial amount of demand, though. 911 residuals are remarkably strong. cayman? not as much. cayenne? not at all. boxster? just no thanks. panamera? only really in demand for the car guy that also has a wife and two kids in tow but also wants a porsche.

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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by smitcat » Thu May 09, 2019 6:36 am

crossbow wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 6:15 pm
Cmpliance wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:19 am
vitaflo wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:03 am
Just so we're clear you're talking about vintage cars in the $100k+ range? Cuz I would never buy a 6 figure car new, nor even one even a few years old unless you absolutely knew it would retain its value (IE, Dodge Demon). If you're buying the kind of cars that are listed on Bring A Trailer then I would have no qualms about buying, as long as you have the cash to do so. You would basically be renting those kind of vehicles.
Not vintage cars. For example, the last car I enjoyed was a Porsche 2007 911 Turbo. Bought and sold it for the same price.

Current cars I'm considering are

- 2016 Porsche GT4/Boxster Spyder
- 2015 Porsche GT3 -
- 2010-2011 Audi R8 V10

I've been potentially considering a fully depreciated early model Lamborghini Gallardo, but don't know yet
Wouldn't the insurance cost on cars like these be through the roof?
Not really in the big picture.

smitcat
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by smitcat » Thu May 09, 2019 6:38 am

TOM1964 wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 6:19 pm
Kenkat wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 3:21 pm
Is there any concern that this ability to drive an exotic, high end auto for a year or two and sell it for what you paid or more is a temporary anomaly bolstered by a strong economy and demand that may not last? Is there perhaps a bubble here? Is anyone worried about getting stuck (if the bubble exists and pops) at some point? Or are these cars just naturally scarce and always in demand?
Spot on. I remember lots of talk like this in 1999. The market has been so strong for so long, even the Bogleheads are buying Ferraris and GT3’s. Imagine what people who are less careful with money are into? :twisted:

I’m a car guy too, though I play at much lower altitudes (TR/MG/AH) and I don’t want to spoil anyone’s fun by going Full Puritan. But I am uneasy, and I see signs of a market top all around me now. This entire thread might be an example of that. Or not.

I am not a market timer, and I am not changing anything in my investment plan or AA. But this idea of driving exotic cars for “free” strikes me as bubbleicious.
The sort of cars that are thought of as 'toys' or special have risen in price since I have been driving these 40+ years. The cars we have driven for daily use have always depreciated but the ones we have owned as extra cars to enjoy have risen in value almost every time.
YMMV

TOM1964
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by TOM1964 » Thu May 09, 2019 7:03 am

Over time, on average, yes they appreciate. Some of that may be demographics too, since the baby boomers are now in late “wish-fulfillment” years. But if you needed to unload a Corvette, lesser Ferrari, pleasure boat, or Florida condo in 2009 you had a big problem. I maintain that these luxury items have at least some liquidity-bubble identification value.

Also bear in mind that Model T Fords (stock, not rods) were collector cars until all the guys who wanted one as boys and had fond memories of them died off. My son and his friends could give a tinker’s cuss for greasy smelly internal-combustion toys. They consider cars a liability. This is a small anecdotal sample, but the pool of people who desire a 1989 Porsche 911 and are willing to pay for it is probably not increasing.
Last edited by TOM1964 on Thu May 09, 2019 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Leemiller
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by Leemiller » Thu May 09, 2019 7:36 am

We went from a 99 Honda to a Mercedes 350, definitely not a six figure car, and comp & collision were up materially. Depending on your overall net worth, not investing that six figures in the market, for example when it went up about 20% in a year, has a material impact. I have no problem with doing this and firmly believe money is meant to be enjoyed, but the idea that this is free...

smitcat
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by smitcat » Thu May 09, 2019 7:51 am

TOM1964 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:03 am
Over time, on average, yes they appreciate. But if you needed to unload a Corvette, lesser Ferrari, pleasure boat, or Florida condo in 2009 you had a big problem. I maintain that these luxury items have at least some liquidity-bubble identification value.
Yes- if you had to 'unload' a Corvette or boat in 2009 you had a problem with prices.
FWIW - if you had to unload a home or secure a job in 2009 you also had a problem.
Similarly if you needed to liquidate investments, artwork or almost any collectable they were appreciably down at the time.
Of course we did not unload either of our corvettes in 2009 nor our boats so they recovered along with our home value.
The cars and boats are sold now (at higher prices) but we still have the homes.

smitcat
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by smitcat » Thu May 09, 2019 7:55 am

Leemiller wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:36 am
We went from a 99 Honda to a Mercedes 350, definitely not a six figure car, and comp & collision were up materially. Depending on your overall net worth, not investing that six figures in the market, for example when it went up about 20% in a year, has a material impact. I have no problem with doing this and firmly believe money is meant to be enjoyed, but the idea that this is free...
"We went from a 99 Honda to a Mercedes 350, definitely not a six figure car, and comp & collision were up materially."
I am not sure how this relates to extra cars that are somewhat 'collectable' which can have favored insurance to a degree …...but the insurance on our 2014 CRV is materially higher than the insurance on our 2006 CRV.

TOM1964
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by TOM1964 » Thu May 09, 2019 7:56 am

Smitcat, I don’t disagree, but I just want to point out that people need a home to live in, and they need investments to retire on, and jobs so they can eat. Nobody needs a Lambo, and when times get tough the toys go first. If you are into your Corvettes for the long term and have the liquidity, of course you will be fine. But this thread was started specifically to address short-term ownership. What if you are getting bored with your new toy when the music stops?

These are good times, and they have been good for a long time. Each of us can decide whether a thread on Bogleheads about flipping exotic cars for no net loss has any wider significance.

smitcat
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by smitcat » Thu May 09, 2019 8:12 am

TOM1964 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:56 am
Smitcat, I don’t disagree, but I just want to point out that people need a home to live in, and they need investments to retire on, and jobs so they can eat. Nobody needs a Lambo, and when times get tough the toys go first. If you are into your Corvettes for the long term and have the liquidity, of course you will be fine. But this thread was started specifically to address short-term ownership. What if you are getting bored with your new toy when the music stops?

These are good times, and they have been good for a long time. Each of us can decide whether a thread on Bogleheads about flipping exotic cars for no net loss has any wider significance.
"But this thread was started specifically to address short-term ownership. What if you are getting bored with your new toy when the music stops?"
Then you will need to take a 10-30% hit on the car if you want it to go away - this thread was never about folks deciding between a toy car and eating.

"These are good times, and they have been good for a long time."
I agree and think you are absolutely correct, but times are cyclic as well and we have been through a few 'cycles'.

"Each of us can decide whether a thread on Bogleheads about flipping exotic cars for no net loss has any wider significance."
In my experience all assets have cycles short term...FWIW the boats and cars were 'down' less than our homes in 2009 etc so the 'home' would have been the primary problem had we been subjected to a liquidity issue.

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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by sjt » Thu May 09, 2019 8:16 am

teamDE wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 3:42 pm
I'm a car guy, but have about zero passion for a street car. If you really like driving, get into racing where you can put that $100k to good use! :)
This - I'd rather get into spec Miata or B-spec compacts and actually race / drive them hard vs feathering some exotic around town for attention.
"The one who covets is the poorer man, | For he would have that which he never can; | But he who doesn't have and doesn't crave | Is rich, though you may hold him but a knave." - Wife of Bath tale

Frisco Kid
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by Frisco Kid » Thu May 09, 2019 8:49 am

Must consider transaction costs as well. A resident of a no sales tax state, Oregon for example on a $150k purchase would have a huge cost advantage over say a California resident like me. Registration costs alone would vary greatly as well. The CA owner would need to sell a year later for $16.5 k or so more to achieve break even. Sure, there are creative workarounds but transaction costs can be numbing...... just sayin.

Trism
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Re: I have a car problem - $100K+ Cars

Post by Trism » Mon May 27, 2019 9:38 am

I'm about to lease something new in the $100k range for 36 months, and I'm treating it as an entertainment expense.

After we pay off our primary residence next month (our second home is already mortgage-free), our recurring expenses will be minimal compared to our income.

Of our three current vehicles, the newest is a 2011.

I'll regroup near the end of the lease and decide if it was worth the expense.

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