Tattoos and Bogleheads

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stemikger
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by stemikger »

surfstar wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:09 pm I was never cool enough to get a tatoo.
Now everyone has them and its more anti-mainstream to not have one - LOL
Neither was I which is why I got Mickey Mouse and a cute little Parrot. Most of my friends at that time were getting really macho and evil looking stuff which of course they regretted. I was the smart one, I still love mine.
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FlyAF
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by FlyAF »

sawhorse wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:21 pm Did any of you with tattoos find that it was mentally easier to get a tattoo because they are now removable? The removal process is expensive and painful, but the option is there. I wonder if the popularity of tattoos among younger people is in part due to the fact that tattoos no longer have to be a lifelong commitment.

If you are considering getting a tattoo with the thought that you can remove it later if you truly regret it, I would recommend researching tattoo removal first. Some colors are a lot easier to remove than others, and some skin tones are more conducive to removal.
Tamarind wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:06 amI'm a bit surprised by the "class" comments up thread. Ötzi the Ice Man had tattoos done when he lived, 5300 years ago. Many cultures from around the world have used tattooing and other body modifications for hundreds of years for self-expression or the very opposite, to connect a person to their family origins. Sure, people can and do get tattoos that seem dumb to others or that they themselves regret, but tattooing has a long history with humans. The idea that life permanently changes your body, and that people want might to participate in that process, is not really so strange.
One of my friends is an Egyptian Coptic Christian. People in that community get their wrists tattooed when they are young kids, as young as a few months old. Historically it was a way for them to be identified as Christian if they died and someone found their body. Now it has sort of evolved into a defiant declaration of their faith in a country in which they face discrimination as a religious minority.
I don't think anybody gets work done now because it is "removable." The skin is definitely not the same and in a lot of cases that I've seen, the area that had work removed looks worse than the bad tattoo. Like someone else mentioned, a lot of removals are done so the person can get new work in the same spot. Like I posted earlier, I have my entire upper torso done which took a couple hundred hours of time actually getting tattooed, 10's of thousands of dollars, and 4-5 years of constantly healing. I certainly didn't do any of that thinking I would/could someday get it removed. In fact, if I were to try, I would look like a burn victim. That said, removal was in it's infancy when I went through all this, but I doubt that is any motivation at all for someone to proceed with getting one.
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Youngblood
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by Youngblood »

The Outsider wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:48 pm No tattoos, just scars
Scars here too and they tell more interesting stories, don't they?
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Scrapr
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by Scrapr »

Raymond wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:33 pm
sawhorse wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:26 pm
bottlecap wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:43 am Technically, I have several tatoos I received involuntarily. The inspiration was "not dying."
:confused How were you tattooed involuntarily?
Google "radiation therapy port marks."
That is what I was guessing. Mrs Scrapr 2x's. Hope you are better now.
Did you take home your mask?
deskjockey
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by deskjockey »

No tats, no interest in getting them, and not going to let my kids get them while they're minors (unlike a work colleague of mine who paid for her 16-year-old to get a tattoo last week). DW and I are on the same page on this, which is definitely a plus. I've got enough involuntary bod mods already with two large scars and a titanium socket sticking out of my skull.
JackoC
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by JackoC »

essbeer wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:49 pm I think in upper to upper-middle class neighborhoods it's still considered some sort of signal of either "low" birth or reckless youth. I live around lots of under 40 doctors and lawyers and literally zero have visible tattoos. I don't think a visible tattoo would be unacceptable, quite the contrary I'd bet it would generate excitement and lots of compliments. But it would also silently scream "not one of us."
Maybe, but IME attitudes about tattoo's are still extremely skewed by age. Of our three grown kids (20's-30's) one has one tiny tattoo that made my wife flip out at the time. But I haven't ever detected much of an attitude on their part that it's 'low class', which I think is or was the pretty standard quietly held view of upper middle class people of my generation, and in my parents would just say in so many words to me: 'only low class people have tattoo's'. Which it's clearly not limited to now. I don't 100% disagree with you, there's still a class gradient to it, I just think age is a so much bigger factor now in attitudes about tattoo's. I bet hardly any, if any at all, of the strongly negative 'never have never would' 'can't understand it' responses on the thread are from people under 40.

There's one tattoo place in our small city. It maneuvered itself into a monopoly after it was allowed to open but then there was a NIMBY backlash against any more. But it's two blocks from us. I don't care except I walked the dog past there every day and one day he decided to chomp on a plant they had outside for some reason, he would do stuff like that, and the owner threatened to kick him. The joke among my friends was asking if the guy ever threatened to kick our next dog, who looked like she'd just as soon chomp your head off as look at you (actually a thoroughly pleasant creature). No, he never did, though she was also too well behaved to ever bite his plant. But come to think of it that's another thing which was more strongly associated with social class at one point. She, an Argentine Mastiff mix, was usually called a 'pit bull'. Long ago 'pit bull owner' had no class implication, then it came to imply lower class person, now the correlation is fading again and much less likely to be the attitude of younger people IME. A lot of it is semi-arbitrary ebb and flow, though I have to say the kid with the small tattoo took a lot of effort to sell me on adopting that dog (best dog I've ever known as it turned out), but nobody would be able to sell me on getting a tattoo. :happy
sawhorse
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by sawhorse »

JackoC wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:32 pm I bet hardly any, if any at all, of the strongly negative 'never have never would' 'can't understand it' responses on the thread are from people under 40.
Saying that you would never do it yourself and don't understand it doesn't mean that you have a strongly negative attitude towards them. My husband would never get one himself, thinks they look bad, and doesn't understand why I would consider getting one. But he doesn't make the deep negative character judgments of people with tattoos that many old people seem to.

I think very few young people would refuse to see a doctor with a tattoo or think less of a teacher with a tattoo as long as the tattoo wasn't offensive or on the throat or face. I think there is still a significant stigma with throat and face tattoos. When I was in grade school, one of the teachers got a tattoo, and the overwhelming reaction from the students was curiosity, not negativity.
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plantingourpennies
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by plantingourpennies »

I like 'em, but don't have one. Quick story for those that think they are an indication of class...

A guy at my old company (3B+ IT services) had one on his neck-he looked sharp, good salesman. I asked him about it once and he gave me a big smile and said, "It's a great [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] filter."

I replied, "What the heck is an [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] filter?"

He said, "Only [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] have a problem with it, so it helps me pick 'em out of a crowd quicker."
stoptothink
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by stoptothink »

plantingourpennies wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:25 pm I like 'em, but don't have one. Quick story for those that think they are an indication of class...

A guy at my old company (3B+ IT services) had one on his neck-he looked sharp, good salesman. I asked him about it once and he gave me a big smile and said, "It's a great [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] filter."

I replied, "What the heck is an [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] filter?"

He said, "Only [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] have a problem with it, so it helps me pick 'em out of a crowd quicker.
I don't disagree that someone who makes a judgement based on a tattoo is an a-hole, but my sister (with degrees from Brown, Oxford, and NYU) would certainly like it if she could quit her two waitressing jobs and have one of those a-holes offer her a job. And she doesn't even have any face/neck tattoos. It's absolutely been an issue in her career, and she whines about it incessantly. It's not right, but you are giving everybody you come in contact with a very visible (albeit wrong) reason to judge you.
moneyman11
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by moneyman11 »

NOT having a tattoo is the new having a tattoo.
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FlyAF
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by FlyAF »

Fun story. I'm an avid golfer and a really good one; usually one of the top 5 or 10 at the club. We move around a lot and join a new club at our new location. We joined a club after a relocation in the fall, but it was a beautiful part of the country and the course stayed in great playable shape all winter, but cool enough that most would be in long sleeves until spring, myself included. We made fast friends and I was playing with the best guys at the club in short order. Over the winter I was asked to join the golf committee to help plan the tournaments and such for the MGA. Spring/summer rolls around and I start showing up in short sleeves. 99% of the membership didn't care and liked us quite a bit, but it very much bothered the old guard. There was nothing addressing tattoos in the ownership contract and to change it it would have to be voted on which they put it up for. It didn't pass. That summer I won their club championship so my picture went up on the wall in the champions hallway to the locker room and I made sure to wear the shortest sleeve golf shirt I could for the picture. I hope it makes the old guard cringe every time they walk by. We moved a year or so later, but I keep in touch with friend there still and so far it has remained lol.
Starfish
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by Starfish »

FlyAF wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:32 am
Starfish wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:00 pm Statistically speaking, it shows poor decision making. At some point in life at least.
LOL, what “statistics” are these that you speak of?
My own. Pretty obvious if you ask me.
I am not saying at all that ALL people with tattoos do something. I am aware that a generalization would be stupid. But given that among the people I "like" fewer have tattoos than among the people I don't "like", it's a pretty simple conclusion.
For example: much fewer doctors, engineers, CEOs, researchers, academics etc have tattoos than gang members.
There is also an objective fundamental logical and artistic issue which I will not discuss because it seems "to each his own" is the mantra.
Last edited by Starfish on Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sawhorse
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by sawhorse »

Starfish wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:30 pm
FlyAF wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:32 am
Starfish wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:00 pm Statistically speaking, it shows poor decision making. At some point in life at least.
LOL, what “statistics” are these that you speak of?
My own. Pretty obvious if you ask me.
I am not saying at all that ALL people with tattoos do something. I am aware that a generalization would be stupid. But given that among the people I "like" fewer have tattoos than among the people I don't "like", it's a pretty simple conclusion.
For example: much fewer doctors, engineers, CEOs, researchers, academics etc have tattoos than gang members.
There is also an objective fundamental logical and artistic issue which I will not discuss because it seems "to each its own" is the mantra.
It's surely less than gang members, but you'd probably be surprised how many younger doctors, engineers, CEOs, researchers, and academics have tattoos. Unless you've seen them naked, you don't know. Like I said earlier, my cousin is an oncologist, and he has a big tattoo covering his back. Many of his patients are old, and I bet that they would suddenly think less of him as a doctor if they saw it despite the fact that it would not impact the quality of care one bit.

A great ob/gyn that I saw, who holds a high position at a university medical center, had a colorful full sleeve tattoo, and she wore a sleeveless dress during our appointment. The tattoo looked rather old, so she probably got it before or early in her career. She also had pink and green hair. If I had avoided her based on her looks, I wouldn't have finally found some relief from my problem.
Last edited by sawhorse on Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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plantingourpennies
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by plantingourpennies »

stoptothink wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:43 pm
plantingourpennies wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:25 pm I like 'em, but don't have one. Quick story for those that think they are an indication of class...

A guy at my old company (3B+ IT services) had one on his neck-he looked sharp, good salesman. I asked him about it once and he gave me a big smile and said, "It's a great [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] filter."

I replied, "What the heck is an [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] filter?"

He said, "Only [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] have a problem with it, so it helps me pick 'em out of a crowd quicker.
I don't disagree that someone who makes a judgement based on a tattoo is an a-hole, but my sister (with degrees from Brown, Oxford, and NYU) would certainly like it if she could quit her two waitressing jobs and have one of those a-holes offer her a job. And she doesn't even have any face/neck tattoos. It's absolutely been an issue in her career, and she whines about it incessantly. It's not right, but you are giving everybody you come in contact with a very visible (albeit wrong) reason to judge you.
On a more serious note-I'm sorry she is having trouble getting a job (although I doubt it is because of her tattoos).

If she is driven then I would suggest she get into high dollar technology/IT sales. All that really counts in that game is hustle and brains-and her degrees show that she has the latter. All the soft skills she likely learned from her degrees (I'm guessing humanities) mean she has a built in advantage.

I graduated with nothing but a philosophy degree from a state school and B2B IT sales provided the fuel for my financial independence. Feel free to DM me with any questions-it's something that i'm passionate about.
Starfish wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:30 pm
FlyAF wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:32 am
Starfish wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:00 pm Statistically speaking, it shows poor decision making. At some point in life at least.
LOL, what “statistics” are these that you speak of?
For example: much fewer doctors, engineers, CEOs, researchers, academics etc have tattoos than gang members.
There is also an objective fundamental logical and artistic issue which I will not discuss because it seems "to each its own" is the mantra.
Doctors, CEOs, etc.* skew older as a group, while gang members skew younger. Likelihood of tattoos is mostly a function of age, not of what you're trying to imply.

No idea what you mean by researchers and academics not having them-I've been both and can assure you that many of the younger generation have them.
stoptothink
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by stoptothink »

plantingourpennies wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:53 pm
stoptothink wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:43 pm
plantingourpennies wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:25 pm I like 'em, but don't have one. Quick story for those that think they are an indication of class...

A guy at my old company (3B+ IT services) had one on his neck-he looked sharp, good salesman. I asked him about it once and he gave me a big smile and said, "It's a great [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] filter."

I replied, "What the heck is an [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] filter?"

He said, "Only [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] have a problem with it, so it helps me pick 'em out of a crowd quicker.
I don't disagree that someone who makes a judgement based on a tattoo is an a-hole, but my sister (with degrees from Brown, Oxford, and NYU) would certainly like it if she could quit her two waitressing jobs and have one of those a-holes offer her a job. And she doesn't even have any face/neck tattoos. It's absolutely been an issue in her career, and she whines about it incessantly. It's not right, but you are giving everybody you come in contact with a very visible (albeit wrong) reason to judge you.
On a more serious note-I'm sorry she is having trouble getting a job (although I doubt it is because of her tattoos).

If she is driven then I would suggest she get into high dollar technology/IT sales. All that really counts in that game is hustle and brains-and her degrees show that she has the latter. All the soft skills she likely learned from her degrees (I'm guessing humanities) mean she has a built in advantage.

I graduated with nothing but a philosophy degree from a state school and B2B IT sales provided the fuel for my financial independence. Feel free to DM me with any questions-it's something that i'm passionate about.
I know for a fact that the tattoos have been an issue with her career because one of the companies she interviewed with recently was mine and the hiring director told me he liked her but she couldn't even get to the 2nd round of interviews for that reason alone. FWIW, almost all of my employees have tattoos, but they aren't as visible (or ridiculous) as my sister's. It is an unfortunate reality, some people still judge based on tattoos/piercings, and those people may be someone you want a job from. It isn't OK, but it may decrease your options; I don't even see how that is debatable.
sawhorse
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by sawhorse »

moneyman11 wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:48 pm NOT having a tattoo is the new having a tattoo.
I wonder when it will peak. It's already around 30% of the younger generation according to some surveys. It can't keep climbing forever.
Sic Vis Pacem
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by Sic Vis Pacem »

Tattooed attorney here. None visible in business clothing. I have a regular group of guys, most of them much older than me, that I chat with at the gym. Shortly after meeting one of my favorites, he asked what I did. I told him I worked at [Insert big firm in my city here]. He asked if I was in IT or a paralegal.

"Nope, Attorney."

"Huh. You must be the most tattooed corporate attorney I've ever met."

"How many corporate attorney's have you seen with no shirt on?"

"...."

"...."

"good point."
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

I once went with a few co-workers when I was 16 to watch one of them get one. Her name was Diane and that's what she wanted etched on her chest. Unfortunately, even though she spelled out (but didn't write out, perhaps that was the problem) stating each letter D-I-A-N-E, the tattoo "artist" inked DIAINE. As I and one of my co-workers noticed the mistake but Diane hadn't (because it was upside down from her vantage point) she could tell from the look of horror on our faces something had gone wrong. We told the artist what was wrong with the misspelling, that it should have been Diane, not Diaine...

In a flash I had an idea but before I could utter it the artist had the exact same idea (he was the professional after all)...he said he would ink a rose using the second "I" as the stem of the rose so there'd be a rose through the DIA and the INE. Fortunately, it worked out and it erased the mistake...and of course he didn't charge her extra for the rose she hadn't ordered.

So remember my fellow bogleheads who wish to get tatoos...and I only say this because you see this misspelled now and again (I just saw it the other day)...it's spelled B-O-G-L-E-H-E-A-D, not B-O-G-G-L-E-H-E-A-D.

That was my public service announcement to you all. Good night.
It's "Stay" the course, not Stray the Course. Buy and Hold works. You should really try it sometime. Get a plan: www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investment_policy_statement
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by mlebuf »

I once saw an interview with the late author Truman Capote who interviewed a lot of convicted murderers on death row. When asked if he saw any common threads between them, Capote said that he notice two:
1. Almost all had been abused as children.
2. They had a strange fascination with tattoos.

Of course times have changed. That was many years ago.
Best wishes, | Michael | | Invest your time actively and your money passively.
montanagirl
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by montanagirl »

mlebuf wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:56 pm I once saw an interview with the late author Truman Capote who interviewed a lot of convicted murderers on death row. When asked if he saw any common threads between them, Capote said that he notice two:
1. Almost all had been abused as children.
2. They had a strange fascination with tattoos.

Of course times have changed. That was many years ago.

Of course. :wink:
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LilyFleur
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by LilyFleur »

MN-Investor wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:01 pm I don't wear the same clothes every day.

I don't wear the same jewelry every day.

I can't imagine wanting permanent artwork on my body. It's too restricting.
I wear one earring in my left ear and two in my right ear. I have not changed them in years. I'm an artist and I like asymmetry, and I also like not having to think about my clothes/jewelry every day. I have a very large number of black v-neck t-shirts to wear with various jeans, pants, and shorts/skorts. They are flattering, and I photograph well in them when I am traveling.

I don't have any tattoos, though, although I do like them.

Everyone has a different approach.
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by rkhusky »

stoptothink wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:10 pm It is an unfortunate reality, some people still judge based on tattoos/piercings, and those people may be someone you want a job from. It isn't OK, but it may decrease your options; I don't even see how that is debatable.
Everyone has biases. I bet I could find some characteristics, other than skill and ability, that you would find objectionable in an employee, but that if you didn't know about it, would probably hire the person.
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by JackoC »

sawhorse wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:49 pm
JackoC wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:32 pm I bet hardly any, if any at all, of the strongly negative 'never have never would' 'can't understand it' responses on the thread are from people under 40.
Saying that you would never do it yourself and don't understand it doesn't mean that you have a strongly negative attitude towards them. My husband would never get one himself, thinks they look bad, and doesn't understand why I would consider getting one. But he doesn't make the deep negative character judgments of people with tattoos that many old people seem to.

I think very few young people would refuse to see a doctor with a tattoo or think less of a teacher with a tattoo as long as the tattoo wasn't offensive or on the throat or face. I think there is still a significant stigma with throat and face tattoos. When I was in grade school, one of the teachers got a tattoo, and the overwhelming reaction from the students was curiosity, not negativity.
Still bet the great majority of answers in that vein are older people, like myself.
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by Jimbo9911 »

I have never gotten a tattoo.
Neither has my daughter.
I believe it is because I told her that if she got a tattoo that I was going to get the exact same tattoo.
Worked for her anyway.
After seeing some of her older classmates that are now sorry they had the tattoo they now have, she is glad she did not get one.

Jim
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Tamarind
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by Tamarind »

Jimbo9911 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:10 am I have never gotten a tattoo.
Neither has my daughter.
I believe it is because I told her that if she got a tattoo that I was going to get the exact same tattoo.
I have to say you were clever there..... But also lucky, yes?

Once your daughter is past age 18, I'd say odds are good that if she still wants ink she'll get it and you will never know. Which I suppose, if your goal is actually that no one else know your daughter has a tattoo, still works for you.
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Jimbo9911
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by Jimbo9911 »

Tamarind wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:14 am
Jimbo9911 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:10 am I have never gotten a tattoo.
Neither has my daughter.
I believe it is because I told her that if she got a tattoo that I was going to get the exact same tattoo.
I have to say you were clever there..... But also lucky, yes?

Once your daughter is past age 18, I'd say odds are good that if she still wants ink she'll get it and you will never know. Which I suppose, if your goal is actually that no one else know your daughter has a tattoo, still works for you.
Oh yes, lucky too.
What prompted me to tell her that was she had just returned from a trip to New Orleans with her high school friends at the age of around 16 or so.
One of her friends had the word "BIT*H" tattooed on her lower back.
I wanted to encourage her that something like that is not a wise move!

Jim
stoptothink
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by stoptothink »

rkhusky wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:17 pm
stoptothink wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:10 pm It is an unfortunate reality, some people still judge based on tattoos/piercings, and those people may be someone you want a job from. It isn't OK, but it may decrease your options; I don't even see how that is debatable.
Everyone has biases. I bet I could find some characteristics, other than skill and ability, that you would find objectionable in an employee, but that if you didn't know about it, would probably hire the person.
No doubt, but can you think of any that are as prevalent as tattoos?

I'm not saying don't get them, I have zero problem with them myself, but just be aware that they are one of the most polarizing things you can do when it comes to eliciting judgement from others. And yes, it is absolutely a generational thing.
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by rkhusky »

stoptothink wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:31 am
rkhusky wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:17 pm
stoptothink wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:10 pm It is an unfortunate reality, some people still judge based on tattoos/piercings, and those people may be someone you want a job from. It isn't OK, but it may decrease your options; I don't even see how that is debatable.
Everyone has biases. I bet I could find some characteristics, other than skill and ability, that you would find objectionable in an employee, but that if you didn't know about it, would probably hire the person.
No doubt, but can you think of any that are as prevalent as tattoos?

I'm not saying don't get them, I have zero problem with them myself, but just be aware that they are one of the most polarizing things you can do when it comes to eliciting judgement from others. And yes, it is absolutely a generational thing.
Constant swearing? Chewing gum? Smoking?
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by dm200 »

stoptothink wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:31 am
rkhusky wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:17 pm
stoptothink wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:10 pm It is an unfortunate reality, some people still judge based on tattoos/piercings, and those people may be someone you want a job from. It isn't OK, but it may decrease your options; I don't even see how that is debatable.
Everyone has biases. I bet I could find some characteristics, other than skill and ability, that you would find objectionable in an employee, but that if you didn't know about it, would probably hire the person.
No doubt, but can you think of any that are as prevalent as tattoos?
I'm not saying don't get them, I have zero problem with them myself, but just be aware that they are one of the most polarizing things you can do when it comes to eliciting judgement from others. And yes, it is absolutely a generational thing.
In thinking about employers that have requirements like "no visible tattoos" for staff dealing with the public, I wonder if that makes any sense.

For me, personally, I really dislike the whole idea of tattoos. I even "cringe" even thinking about the whole process and results.

However, I do not believe that I really care at all if I deal with an employee of a business who has visible tattoos. I assume that employer would only have qualified staff there to serve me.

So, I think I have strong views in BOTH directions: While I am against and dislike tattoos for myself and everyone else - I also feel strongly that I don't care (from a business/fairness standpoint) about dealing with tattooed folks. Is there any "objective" and "impartial" evaluation of whether such employer rules and restrictions make any business sense at all.

Of course, we cannot let customer opinions/reactions totally govern business practices or rules. A business cannot just hire men because customers would be happier - or the other way around. Except in some unusual circumstances, a business could not exclude employing women who wear various types of head coverings - or exclude employees because of their perceived racial, ethnic or religious identity.
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by Starfish »

plantingourpennies wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:53 pm Doctors, CEOs, etc.* skew older as a group, while gang members skew younger. Likelihood of tattoos is mostly a function of age, not of what you're trying to imply.

No idea what you mean by researchers and academics not having them-I've been both and can assure you that many of the younger generation have them.
Denying reality doesn't change it :D
"Many" having them does not contradict what I wrote. And it is not that many, they just stand out.
One important function of the tattoos is to show group affiliation (gang, tribe, military, fraternity etc), regimentation. As long as there are much less people in the groups I mentioned with strong enough affiliations to a group to inject ink in their body to show it, the result is obvious.
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by Starfish »

dm200 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:50 am
stoptothink wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:31 am
rkhusky wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:17 pm
stoptothink wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:10 pm It is an unfortunate reality, some people still judge based on tattoos/piercings, and those people may be someone you want a job from. It isn't OK, but it may decrease your options; I don't even see how that is debatable.
Everyone has biases. I bet I could find some characteristics, other than skill and ability, that you would find objectionable in an employee, but that if you didn't know about it, would probably hire the person.
No doubt, but can you think of any that are as prevalent as tattoos?
I'm not saying don't get them, I have zero problem with them myself, but just be aware that they are one of the most polarizing things you can do when it comes to eliciting judgement from others. And yes, it is absolutely a generational thing.
In thinking about employers that have requirements like "no visible tattoos" for staff dealing with the public, I wonder if that makes any sense.

For me, personally, I really dislike the whole idea of tattoos. I even "cringe" even thinking about the whole process and results.

However, I do not believe that I really care at all if I deal with an employee of a business who has visible tattoos. I assume that employer would only have qualified staff there to serve me.

So, I think I have strong views in BOTH directions: While I am against and dislike tattoos for myself and everyone else - I also feel strongly that I don't care (from a business/fairness standpoint) about dealing with tattooed folks. Is there any "objective" and "impartial" evaluation of whether such employer rules and restrictions make any business sense at all.
Businesses have even stranger rules, like a dress code, and nobody bothered to check if it makes sense. Isn't a tattoo much closer to a dress code than a religious head covering?
Probably somebody thought that there is value in bending the social bias towards different cultures, sex etc, but there is not social value in having more tattoo acceptance, and as such there is no law banning tattoo discrimination. Yet.
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by dm200 »

Businesses have even stranger rules, like a dress code, and nobody bothered to check if it makes sense. Isn't a tattoo much closer to a dress code than a religious head covering?
Probably somebody thought that there is value in bending the social bias towards different cultures, sex etc, but there is not social value in having more tattoo acceptance, and as such there is no law banning tattoo discrimination. Yet.
Yes - more like a "dress code" - but tattoos don't come off like the wrong shirt or jeans.
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by shell921 »

I am old enough to remember when the only people with tattoos were criminals, bikers and sailors!
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by dm200 »

shell921 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:55 pm I am old enough to remember when the only people with tattoos were criminals, bikers and sailors!
Yes! Many decades ago, I had some dealings with a biker that had upper arm tattoos. I was chatting about it with my manager at work. My manager (don't know if he was right) said a tattoo on one arm was not highly associated with criminal activity, BUT when BOTH arms have tattoos - the association was much stronger. I checked and this guy had tattoos on BOTH arms. Turned out he had a history of criminal involvement.
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by Tamarind »

dm200 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:02 pm
shell921 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:55 pm I am old enough to remember when the only people with tattoos were criminals, bikers and sailors!
Yes! Many decades ago, I had some dealings with a biker that had upper arm tattoos. I was chatting about it with my manager at work. My manager (don't know if he was right) said a tattoo on one arm was not highly associated with criminal activity, BUT when BOTH arms have tattoos - the association was much stronger. I checked and this guy had tattoos on BOTH arms. Turned out he had a history of criminal involvement.
Thanks to you both for a good laugh! :sharebeer
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by stoptothink »

rkhusky wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:39 am
stoptothink wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:31 am
rkhusky wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:17 pm
stoptothink wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:10 pm It is an unfortunate reality, some people still judge based on tattoos/piercings, and those people may be someone you want a job from. It isn't OK, but it may decrease your options; I don't even see how that is debatable.
Everyone has biases. I bet I could find some characteristics, other than skill and ability, that you would find objectionable in an employee, but that if you didn't know about it, would probably hire the person.
No doubt, but can you think of any that are as prevalent as tattoos?

I'm not saying don't get them, I have zero problem with them myself, but just be aware that they are one of the most polarizing things you can do when it comes to eliciting judgement from others. And yes, it is absolutely a generational thing.
Constant swearing? Chewing gum? Smoking?
I'm not sure how you can even compare any of these things to tattoos (chewing gum...come on), they are actions; but OK.
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by dm200 »

Tamarind wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:09 pm
dm200 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:02 pm
shell921 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:55 pm I am old enough to remember when the only people with tattoos were criminals, bikers and sailors!
Yes! Many decades ago, I had some dealings with a biker that had upper arm tattoos. I was chatting about it with my manager at work. My manager (don't know if he was right) said a tattoo on one arm was not highly associated with criminal activity, BUT when BOTH arms have tattoos - the association was much stronger. I checked and this guy had tattoos on BOTH arms. Turned out he had a history of criminal involvement.
Thanks to you both for a good laugh! :sharebeer
Turned out, at the time, not "funny" (for a while). I was sharing a rental house with 2 or 3 other guys - and this guy wanted to share the house. We let him move in - BUT within a few days it became apparent there was not a good "fit" . He ran his motorcycle through the back yard making a big skid mark in the grass, had a young woman in his room overnight and for a few days after. It turned out she was only FIFTEEN years old! So, we asked him to leave. He was not happy. BUT - he did leave. A few days later, the local police surrounded the house (looking for him on an alleged gang murder) with riot guns - and searched the house - room by room with many guns (large and small) drawn.

Much funnier now!
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by sawhorse »

shell921 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:55 pm I am old enough to remember when the only people with tattoos were criminals, bikers and sailors!
When did it change and why? It's so far from the reality today that it's almost surreal to know that it was once the case.

There clearly is a huge generational gap. At what age is the dividing line?
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by rkhusky »

stoptothink wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:40 pm
rkhusky wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:39 am
stoptothink wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:31 am
rkhusky wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:17 pm
stoptothink wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:10 pm It is an unfortunate reality, some people still judge based on tattoos/piercings, and those people may be someone you want a job from. It isn't OK, but it may decrease your options; I don't even see how that is debatable.
Everyone has biases. I bet I could find some characteristics, other than skill and ability, that you would find objectionable in an employee, but that if you didn't know about it, would probably hire the person.
No doubt, but can you think of any that are as prevalent as tattoos?

I'm not saying don't get them, I have zero problem with them myself, but just be aware that they are one of the most polarizing things you can do when it comes to eliciting judgement from others. And yes, it is absolutely a generational thing.
Constant swearing? Chewing gum? Smoking?
I'm not sure how you can even compare any of these things to tattoos (chewing gum...come on), they are actions; but OK.
I don't know. Have you ever had someone was constantly chewing gum - while they talk to you, during meetings, interacting with customers?

Some might find that more annoying and unprofessional than a visible tattoo. In a world with no absolute moral code, who is to say this is worse than that?

And getting and displaying a tattoo are actions.
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by staythecourse »

Wow, didn't realize a topic like this is a cause for so much extreme viewpoints. It is a form of art and expression so those who want it go for it. Just keep in mind that not EVERYONE in life shares the same viewpoint and some of those folks will be future employers. Is it fair? No. Is it true? Yes. As mentioned above early in the thread I have one on the back of my left shoulder so no one sees it so has never been an issue. Then again I am a doctor who owns their own practice so I have no boss to impress so my situation is a bit different then most.

My advice... don't get it anywhere folks can see it as you can see some folks have extreme viewpoints.

Good luck.

p.s. I will definitely get one more in my lifetime. Just need to find something to inspire it.
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by MN-Investor »

I figure the acceptance of tattoos is similar to a generation's taste in music and hair & dress styles.

I graduated from high school in 1971, so I listened to a lot of music from the '60s and '70s. I remember my mother frowning at the Beatle's long hair. I remember the high school basketball coach requiring all BB players to have hair no more than 1" long. I remember wearing very short skirts. But the music from that period, the short skirts, the long hair... that was MY generation. I realized that not everyone in the older generation would understand it.

But, more importantly, I realized that the next generation was going to have their own music - which I probably wouldn't stand, and their own fashions and hairdos. They sure do. Tattoos are a part of it. I can't judge today's music and fashions by my '60s and '70s standards. The current generation's choices are meant for them, not for me. So I ignore the music and fashions of the current generation which strike me as odd, and have learned to appreciate some of their choices which do appeal to me or amuse me. In that vein, I enjoy some of the small tattoos. I appreciate some of the fine artwork of sleeve tattoos. And some tattoos are just ugly, either because of the quality of the work or the subject matter selected. I try to ignore them.
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by LilyFleur »

My daughter worked for a very high-end restaurant that had a customer base of mostly older, wealthy people. They were attempting to attract younger customers, and they encouraged the staff to show their tattoos (my daughter has tattoos on her forearms). She received compliments even from little old ladies! But we live in California... even older folks here seem to be more tolerant and less judgmental and fearful.
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by smitcat »

stoptothink wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:10 pm
plantingourpennies wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:53 pm
stoptothink wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:43 pm
plantingourpennies wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:25 pm I like 'em, but don't have one. Quick story for those that think they are an indication of class...

A guy at my old company (3B+ IT services) had one on his neck-he looked sharp, good salesman. I asked him about it once and he gave me a big smile and said, "It's a great [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] filter."

I replied, "What the heck is an [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] filter?"

He said, "Only [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] have a problem with it, so it helps me pick 'em out of a crowd quicker.
I don't disagree that someone who makes a judgement based on a tattoo is an a-hole, but my sister (with degrees from Brown, Oxford, and NYU) would certainly like it if she could quit her two waitressing jobs and have one of those a-holes offer her a job. And she doesn't even have any face/neck tattoos. It's absolutely been an issue in her career, and she whines about it incessantly. It's not right, but you are giving everybody you come in contact with a very visible (albeit wrong) reason to judge you.
On a more serious note-I'm sorry she is having trouble getting a job (although I doubt it is because of her tattoos).

If she is driven then I would suggest she get into high dollar technology/IT sales. All that really counts in that game is hustle and brains-and her degrees show that she has the latter. All the soft skills she likely learned from her degrees (I'm guessing humanities) mean she has a built in advantage.

I graduated with nothing but a philosophy degree from a state school and B2B IT sales provided the fuel for my financial independence. Feel free to DM me with any questions-it's something that i'm passionate about.
I know for a fact that the tattoos have been an issue with her career because one of the companies she interviewed with recently was mine and the hiring director told me he liked her but she couldn't even get to the 2nd round of interviews for that reason alone. FWIW, almost all of my employees have tattoos, but they aren't as visible (or ridiculous) as my sister's. It is an unfortunate reality, some people still judge based on tattoos/piercings, and those people may be someone you want a job from. It isn't OK, but it may decrease your options; I don't even see how that is debatable.
"FWIW, almost all of my employees have tattoos, but they aren't as visible (or ridiculous) as my sister's"
This sounds like you company would be operating in a discriminatory manner - you might let her know she would likely win a suit against them.
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by sawhorse »

MN-Investor wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:34 pmBut, more importantly, I realized that the next generation was going to have their own music - which I probably wouldn't stand, and their own fashions and hairdos. They sure do. Tattoos are a part of it. I can't judge today's music and fashions by my '60s and '70s standards. The current generation's choices are meant for them, not for me. So I ignore the music and fashions of the current generation which strike me as odd, and have learned to appreciate some of their choices which do appeal to me or amuse me. In that vein, I enjoy some of the small tattoos. I appreciate some of the fine artwork of sleeve tattoos. And some tattoos are just ugly, either because of the quality of the work or the subject matter selected. I try to ignore them.
:thumbsup :thumbsup to everything in this paragraph

I think it's likely that a future generation in my lifetime will reject tattoos. Tattoos have become so common that in some circles - professional sports for example - you stand out by not having a tattoo. It's reached a saturation point.

Then we may see them once again become associated with undesirable groups.

Body art is probably cyclical like fashion in general.

It's hard to predict the future of tattooing other than to say that it will be different than it is now. All the people who have been tattooed throughout history wouldn't have predicted the current state of tattooing. Otzi the Iceman, who had 61 tattoos :shock: , would probably be mortified that there is an entire generation that looks at his 5300 year old body and thinks he must have been a criminal. And certainly the royal/aristocratic ancient Egyptians who were mummified with heavy tattooing would be mortified to know that an 18 year old kid can walk into a small corner shop, pay $100, and get the same tattoo.
Last edited by sawhorse on Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by dm200 »

sawhorse wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:02 pm
MN-Investor wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:34 pmBut, more importantly, I realized that the next generation was going to have their own music - which I probably wouldn't stand, and their own fashions and hairdos. They sure do. Tattoos are a part of it. I can't judge today's music and fashions by my '60s and '70s standards. The current generation's choices are meant for them, not for me. So I ignore the music and fashions of the current generation which strike me as odd, and have learned to appreciate some of their choices which do appeal to me or amuse me. In that vein, I enjoy some of the small tattoos. I appreciate some of the fine artwork of sleeve tattoos. And some tattoos are just ugly, either because of the quality of the work or the subject matter selected. I try to ignore them.
:thumbsup :thumbsup to everything in this paragraph
I think it's likely that a future generation in my lifetime will reject tattoos. Tattoos have become so common that in some circles - professional sports for example - you stand out by not having a tattoo. It's reached a saturation point.
Then we may see them once again become associated with undesirable groups.
Body art is probably cyclical like fashion in general. Otzi the Iceman, who had 61 tattoos :shock: , would probably be mortified that there is an entire generation that looks at his 5300 year old body and thinks he must have been a criminal. And certainly the aristocratic ancient Egyptians who were mummified with heavy tattooing would be mortified to know that an 18 year old kid can walk into a small corner shop, pay $100, and get the same tattoo.
Yes - I thought rejecting tattoos would be the in thing now - but the exact opposite. We shall see.
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by Starfish »

sawhorse wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:57 pm
shell921 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:55 pm I am old enough to remember when the only people with tattoos were criminals, bikers and sailors!
When did it change and why? It's so far from the reality today that it's almost surreal to know that it was once the case.

There clearly is a huge generational gap. At what age is the dividing line?
When hipsters became mainstream. 10-15 years ago?
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by dm200 »

Starfish wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:13 pm
sawhorse wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:57 pm
shell921 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:55 pm I am old enough to remember when the only people with tattoos were criminals, bikers and sailors!
When did it change and why? It's so far from the reality today that it's almost surreal to know that it was once the case.
There clearly is a huge generational gap. At what age is the dividing line?
When hipsters became mainstream. 10-15 years ago?
Not tattoos - but there was an older man sitting at the bar of a restaurant. Up comes a young man with spiked hair and dyed in many different colors. The older man looked at the young man. Noticing this, the young man said, "What's the matter, old man? Never see any young folks today?"

"No", said the older man. "Just that when I was in the Army many years ago, I once go so drunk - I had sex with a chicken. I wondering if you might be my son"
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by Yellowhouse »

Tattoos have a negative effect on one's ability to land a job. Tattoos also make a person look rough, not an attractive overall look. Sleeves are hideous, neck tats are hideous...just a low class look.
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by rkhusky »

smitcat wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:55 pm "FWIW, almost all of my employees have tattoos, but they aren't as visible (or ridiculous) as my sister's"
This sounds like you company would be operating in a discriminatory manner - you might let her know she would likely win a suit against them.
Really?! Is being tatted a protected class now? What if the tattoos contain profanities or other objectionable imagery?
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Re: Tattoos and Bogleheads

Post by Mingus »

dm200 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:05 pm

Yes - I thought rejecting tattoos would be the in thing now - but the exact opposite. We shall see.
It may take 20 or 30 years but eventually the rejection will happen.

It could be right around the time young kids are old enough to recognize that the face and neck tattoos on grandma and grandpa look like trash and they are never going to do that.

Or mom and dad are all tatted out and the kids vow to never be their parents thus avoiding the tat trap.
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