Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

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ltuxl
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Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by ltuxl »

Greetings Bogleheads,

I am thinking about buying a new home by Ryan Homes and wanted input from the bogleheads community.

Here is my concern:
- Online reviews for Ryan Homes are almost all terrible.
Additional details: Lots of the complaints although bad, are not terrible. Some reference the wrong color siding put on etc. I obviously would not want the wrong color siding but my main concerns are related to structural integrity, electrical, plumbing/flooding/leaks, etc. Some complaints use wording that has me very hesitant and concerned. Some places have them rated as low as 1.3 stars out of 5. I did find one person who had a house built by Ryan Homes in a near by geographical area and he said the reviews for our area (Washington DC) were better than others in the country. I have been trying to but unable to pin point geographical area based reviews and I consider this person an outlier.

Benefits of new home by Ryan Homes:
- My wife and I will be closer to work by 5 minutes and 20-25 respectively versus the other areas we are looking at (mainly due to house cost) buying. My wife is currently waiting to hear back from a recent interview that would put her 20-25 minutes closer to work.
- Ryan Homes is the only home builder in the area that offers homes we can afford. The other nearby home builder (NV Homes) – who is owned by the same parent company (NVR Inc.) as Ryan Homes – starts at $130k higher than Ryan Homes with smaller lots. As far as I can tell this is mainly due to the level of custom options they offer.
- We have both been looking on and off for over a year and more seriously over the past 6 months. Existing homes in our area go for the same amount as we anticipate spending on a new Ryan Home but they are much older. Most of them are built in the 70s-80s. We are concerned about issues with older homes such as repairs.
- The base options for the Ryan Home neighborhood we are looking at are amazing. We both love the floor plans that they offer, including the entry level floor plan/options.
- Public schools from Elementary to High School are rated 8 – 10 by multiple websites including Zillow, Redfin, and greatschools.org.
- Maybe this is an assumption on my part, but I feel like new construction offers fewer headaches with potential repairs. See below for ways we plan to mitigate and/or deal with these potential issues if they arise that are not available with buying an existing house.

Answers and information from Ryan Homes that make me feel better about the purchase:
- Ryan Homes gives the following three warranties with every new home:
o 1 year warranty for everything.
o 2 year warranty for under stuff such as plumbing and electrical.
o 10 year warranty on the structure.
- Ryan Homes offers a service portal for all home users to use in the event they have an issue so they can work directly with a dedicated representative.

Plans to mitigate my concern:
- I plan on having my own inspector review the home during each major phase of the build to ensure it is done properly. I am not sure how many visits this will be or if its advisable since Ryan Homes uses their own third-party inspectors, but I would be willing to pay the additional cost for an inspector to stop by 3-4 times throughout the build to ensure things are done properly.
- I’ve read online recommendations from some of the people writing bad reviews about Ryan Homes. They suggest to follow-up on the build by stopping by ourselves. I’m not a homebuilder but I do plan on looking more into why this was suggested and how my wife and me can mitigate any potential issues with the house.

Questions for the Bogleheads community:
- Would you buy it if you were in a similar situation? If not, why not?
- What else would you want to know? What else would you double check?
- Would you take any additional steps to mitigate risk with the new home having issues?
- Does anyone have experience with buying a new home and had issues?
- Does anyone have experience specifically with Ryan Homes?

Any additional information is welcome.

Thanks in advance,



Tux
- Mr. Tux
MotoTrojan
Posts: 11259
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:39 pm

Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by MotoTrojan »

ltuxl wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:55 pm Greetings Bogleheads,

I am thinking about buying a new home by Ryan Homes and wanted input from the bogleheads community.

Here is my concern:
- Online reviews for Ryan Homes are almost all terrible.
Additional details: Lots of the complaints although bad, are not terrible. Some reference the wrong color siding put on etc. I obviously would not want the wrong color siding but my main concerns are related to structural integrity, electrical, plumbing/flooding/leaks, etc. Some complaints use wording that has me very hesitant and concerned. Some places have them rated as low as 1.3 stars out of 5. I did find one person who had a house built by Ryan Homes in a near by geographical area and he said the reviews for our area (Washington DC) were better than others in the country. I have been trying to but unable to pin point geographical area based reviews and I consider this person an outlier.

Benefits of new home by Ryan Homes:
- My wife and I will be closer to work by 5 minutes and 20-25 respectively versus the other areas we are looking at (mainly due to house cost) buying. My wife is currently waiting to hear back from a recent interview that would put her 20-25 minutes closer to work.
- Ryan Homes is the only home builder in the area that offers homes we can afford. The other nearby home builder (NV Homes) – who is owned by the same parent company (NVR Inc.) as Ryan Homes – starts at $130k higher than Ryan Homes with smaller lots. As far as I can tell this is mainly due to the level of custom options they offer.
- We have both been looking on and off for over a year and more seriously over the past 6 months. Existing homes in our area go for the same amount as we anticipate spending on a new Ryan Home but they are much older. Most of them are built in the 70s-80s. We are concerned about issues with older homes such as repairs.
- The base options for the Ryan Home neighborhood we are looking at are amazing. We both love the floor plans that they offer, including the entry level floor plan/options.
- Public schools from Elementary to High School are rated 8 – 10 by multiple websites including Zillow, Redfin, and greatschools.org.
- Maybe this is an assumption on my part, but I feel like new construction offers fewer headaches with potential repairs. See below for ways we plan to mitigate and/or deal with these potential issues if they arise that are not available with buying an existing house.

Answers and information from Ryan Homes that make me feel better about the purchase:
- Ryan Homes gives the following three warranties with every new home:
o 1 year warranty for everything.
o 2 year warranty for under stuff such as plumbing and electrical.
o 10 year warranty on the structure.
- Ryan Homes offers a service portal for all home users to use in the event they have an issue so they can work directly with a dedicated representative.

Plans to mitigate my concern:
- I plan on having my own inspector review the home during each major phase of the build to ensure it is done properly. I am not sure how many visits this will be or if its advisable since Ryan Homes uses their own third-party inspectors, but I would be willing to pay the additional cost for an inspector to stop by 3-4 times throughout the build to ensure things are done properly.
- I’ve read online recommendations from some of the people writing bad reviews about Ryan Homes. They suggest to follow-up on the build by stopping by ourselves. I’m not a homebuilder but I do plan on looking more into why this was suggested and how my wife and me can mitigate any potential issues with the house.

Questions for the Bogleheads community:
- Would you buy it if you were in a similar situation? If not, why not?
- What else would you want to know? What else would you double check?
- Would you take any additional steps to mitigate risk with the new home having issues?
- Does anyone have experience with buying a new home and had issues?
- Does anyone have experience specifically with Ryan Homes?

Any additional information is welcome.

Thanks in advance,



Tux
Not familiar but 1/5 stars is not something I’d bet my home on. You get what you pay for.
k3vb0t
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by k3vb0t »

Wouldn't outright trust online reviews, wouldn't outright discount them.

If I were serious about avoiding buying into a massive headache and potential moneypit I would go to a Ryan neighborhood and talk to a bunch of people in person.
JV
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by JV »

My wife and I have toured several Ryan Homes, at least 5, over the course of the last year, in our home search in Western NY. Every single one of them was poorly constructed. The floors squeaked like crazy, and many of the little details were not properly done, such as the molding, caulking, etc. There was actually one Ryan home that appeared to be well made that we actually considered, but we found out it was a massively upgraded model and the prior owner was one of the regional Ryan Homes managers.

As someone else stated, you get what you pay for. Personally, we wouldn't go near purchasing a Ryan home.
chevca
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by chevca »

Agree about going to the neighborhood and talking to folks in person. We did that buying new and it's a much better feeling to hear from actual homowners in the area.

Online reviews... well, how many homes has Ryan built in that area, and did they all post a review. Online reviews only tend to get posted by those with bad experiences, in some areas. And, other builders may even post fake reviews. I wouldn't put much worth in those. Do your own work, in person, and see how it feels to you then.
MDfan
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by MDfan »

Have lived in a Ryan Home for 26 years. Had a water/roof issue very early on which they addressed to our satisfaction and have not had an issue since. Talk to others in the neighborhood living in similar homes. Ours is a mix of Ryan and NV Homes and I have not heard any complaints. I take on-line reviews with huge grain of salt.
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leeks
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by leeks »

I heard generally bad things second-hand, but that was over 10 years ago and not in Washington, DC area.
ArmchairArchitect
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by ArmchairArchitect »

My friend just bought a Ryan home in the Malvern PA area. Poor craftsmanship as they just hire contractors with the lowest bid, cheap materials/finishes, bad customer service, and opportunistic prices for upgrades. Plus all the homes look way too cookie cutter.

Buy your own lot, and hire your own architect and competent builder.
MrJones
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by MrJones »

k3vb0t wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:00 pm Wouldn't outright trust online reviews, wouldn't outright discount them.

If I were serious about avoiding buying into a massive headache and potential moneypit I would go to a Ryan neighborhood and talk to a bunch of people in person.

+1 to both points. Online reviews are sometimes biased toward folks who are motivated to write reviews - eg, dissatisfied customers. On the other hand, you can't fully discount poor reviews like these either. Do they suffer from bias or are they showing up problems with this builder? Consistent small problems may arise from poor company culture and may be pointing to lurking deeper problems.

Talking in person is a fantastic idea.
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Helo80
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by Helo80 »

For national builders, you have to keep in mind that build quality is very local and regional. This is not a consultant practice where the same crews are traveling to LA, NYC, Washington, Florida, etc. each week.

At the end of the day, quality craftsmanship costs money. There's a reason why a Mercedes S-Class and Honda Accord costs what they do. Both are functionally equivalent.... carry 5 passengers from Point A to Point B.... but ownership experience will be different.
Thank God for Wall Street Bets.
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unclescrooge
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by unclescrooge »

While I can't speak to the quality of homes, if the same parent company is building homes in your area, I would expect there to be overlap in the subs.

And the workmanship depends on which subs are hired.
Last edited by unclescrooge on Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Watty
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by Watty »

ltuxl wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:55 pm Answers and information from Ryan Homes that make me feel better about the purchase:
- Ryan Homes gives the following three warranties with every new home:
o 1 year warranty for everything.
o 2 year warranty for under stuff such as plumbing and electrical.
o 10 year warranty on the structure.
- Ryan Homes offers a service portal for all home users to use in the event they have an issue so they can work directly with a dedicated representative.
One thing to understand is that builders frequently(always ?) use a different LLC for each project. LLC stands for Limited Liability Corporation.

This means that if you have a problem once the project is done the LLC may not longer exist so that even it the parent company, like ACME builders, is still active you might have a hard time finding someone to sue since the LLC you were dealing with does not exist. That might not matter a lot though since they likely require you to use binding arbitration that is run by a trade groupe that is favorable to them.

Anyway I would not count on the warranty to take care of problems with a builder you suspect is dodgy.
cartman
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by cartman »

Ryan Homes built our home. While acknowledging it was one of Ryan Homes more expensive plans, our home and their warranty service was exceptional. They readily addressed issues where they had responsibility. And they have employees who specifically address warranty issues.

One bit of advice (regardless of the builder), keep on top of everything. Take a lot of videos and photos during construction, and routinely check everything once you take ownership. It is much easier to have issues addressed, when the homeowner lets the builder know during the warranty period.
brianH
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by brianH »

ltuxl wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:55 pm built in the 70s-80s. We are concerned about issues with older homes such as repairs.
You might want to rethink this logic.

IMHO, homes built around the late 70s early 80s have a number of things going for them. In most cases:

-No asbestos
-No lead
-Copper wiring
-Modern electrical (200amp) service
-Larger lots
-Foundation and drainage issues would've shown up by now
-No problematic 'stucco' (EIFS)
-Built before major housing booms where construction quality got... questionable.
-Lower taxes

As with any home purchase, a quality inspection of major systems is required, and you obviously want previous owners to have kept the place up (preferably not a fix-it-quick flip.) As others have noted, new homes are frequently not maintenance-free, even for the first few years, and it's pretty likely that if major issues show up about a decade later, the builder/warranty will be long gone.

The Philadelphia Inquirer did a must-read expose about Toll recently, but it applies to most of these builders: http://www.philly.com/real-estate/housi ... 81115.html
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ltuxl
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by ltuxl »

k3vb0t wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:00 pm Wouldn't outright trust online reviews, wouldn't outright discount them.

If I were serious about avoiding buying into a massive headache and potential moneypit I would go to a Ryan neighborhood and talk to a bunch of people in person.
Thanks for your response. My wife and I plan on doing exactly this... We will be going by this weekend and in the near future to talk to existing Ryan Homes customers.
JV wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:07 pm My wife and I have toured several Ryan Homes, at least 5, over the course of the last year, in our home search in Western NY. Every single one of them was poorly constructed. The floors squeaked like crazy, and many of the little details were not properly done, such as the molding, caulking, etc. There was actually one Ryan home that appeared to be well made that we actually considered, but we found out it was a massively upgraded model and the prior owner was one of the regional Ryan Homes managers.

As someone else stated, you get what you pay for. Personally, we wouldn't go near purchasing a Ryan home.
Thanks for your post. I have heard about these squeaky floors on a bunch of reviews. The models we have walked through so far have not had that issue. Also, I noticed in one of the semi-finished models that the sub-floor boards were screwed down and not nailed down. I've read this is one of the reasons for the squeaking.
chevca wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:13 pm Agree about going to the neighborhood and talking to folks in person. We did that buying new and it's a much better feeling to hear from actual homowners in the area.
Thanks, my wife and I will definitly be asking around.
MDfan wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:20 pm Have lived in a Ryan Home for 26 years. Had a water/roof issue very early on which they addressed to our satisfaction and have not had an issue since. Talk to others in the neighborhood living in similar homes. Ours is a mix of Ryan and NV Homes and I have not heard any complaints. I take on-line reviews with huge grain of salt.
Thanks for your post. In addition to the aforementioned example I gave of the guy who lived in our area, my brother-in-law also owns a Ryan home. He has one issue with siding and has (knock on wood) been issue free ever since. Again, we will definitly be asking around :).
k3vb0t wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:00 pm Wouldn't outright trust online reviews, wouldn't outright discount them.

If I were serious about avoiding buying into a massive headache and potential moneypit I would go to a Ryan neighborhood and talk to a bunch of people in person.
Thanks, I feel the same way about the reviews... I am sure there is validity to some/most of them. However, I don't want to assume we can expect all of the same issues...
MrJones wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:30 pm
k3vb0t wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:00 pm Wouldn't outright trust online reviews, wouldn't outright discount them.

If I were serious about avoiding buying into a massive headache and potential moneypit I would go to a Ryan neighborhood and talk to a bunch of people in person.

+1 to both points. Online reviews are sometimes biased toward folks who are motivated to write reviews - eg, dissatisfied customers. On the other hand, you can't fully discount poor reviews like these either. Do they suffer from bias or are they showing up problems with this builder? Consistent small problems may arise from poor company culture and may be pointing to lurking deeper problems.

Talking in person is a fantastic idea.
Thanks for your response. Yeah, checking around is a must. I know someone who lives in the area in the 55+ section who also has a house that was built by Ryan Homes. I will be leveraging him as well to gather as much information as possible about Ryan Homes build quality.
unclescrooge wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:47 pm While I can't speak to the quality of homes, is the same parent company is building homes in your area, I would expect there to be overlap in the subs.

And the workmanship depends on which subs are hired.
Thanks for your post. I actually asked the Ryan Homes rep we talked to about using the same subs. She confirmed they do. In addition to talking to current Ryan Homes owners, I will talking with owners of NV Homes as well...
cartman wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:33 pm Ryan Homes built our home. While acknowledging it was one of Ryan Homes more expensive plans, our home and their warranty service was exceptional. They readily addressed issues where they had responsibility. And they have employees who specifically address warranty issues.

One bit of advice (regardless of the builder), keep on top of everything. Take a lot of videos and photos during construction, and routinely check everything once you take ownership. It is much easier to have issues addressed, when the homeowner lets the builder know during the warranty period.
Thanks for your response. I am hoping we have a similar experience to you in the event we have any issues. The plan we are looking at is the lower end plans in our area but they still start at $499k so compared to lots of other areas where Ryan Homes builds, we would be purchasing an "expensive plan". My wife and I definitly plan on stopping by multiple times during each major phase of construction. Provided we decide to go the Ryan Homes route we will be testing every outlet, faucet, etc. once we take ownership.
- Mr. Tux
Bacchus01
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by Bacchus01 »

MDfan wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:20 pm Have lived in a Ryan Home for 26 years. Had a water/roof issue very early on which they addressed to our satisfaction and have not had an issue since. Talk to others in the neighborhood living in similar homes. Ours is a mix of Ryan and NV Homes and I have not heard any complaints. I take on-line reviews with huge grain of salt.
Anything 25+ years ago is also pretty irrelevant to today. I don’t know anything about their homes, but just because they did something good 25 years ago has almost no correlation to today.
Bacchus01
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by Bacchus01 »

brianH wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:59 pm
ltuxl wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:55 pm built in the 70s-80s. We are concerned about issues with older homes such as repairs.
You might want to rethink this logic.

IMHO, homes built around the late 70s early 80s have a number of things going for them. In most cases:

-No asbestos
-No lead
-Copper wiring
-Modern electrical (200amp) service
-Larger lots
-Foundation and drainage issues would've shown up by now
-No problematic 'stucco' (EIFS)
-Built before major housing booms where construction quality got... questionable.
-Lower taxes

As with any home purchase, a quality inspection of major systems is required, and you obviously want previous owners to have kept the place up (preferably not a fix-it-quick flip.) As others have noted, new homes are frequently not maintenance-free, even for the first few years, and it's pretty likely that if major issues show up about a decade later, the builder/warranty will be long gone.

The Philadelphia Inquirer did a must-read expose about Toll recently, but it applies to most of these builders: http://www.philly.com/real-estate/housi ... 81115.html
I think this is spot on regarding 70s/80s homes. Generally well constructed but likely poor floor plans. Also, while the bones are probably among the most solid, I think the technology in windows has come a long long way and that is one are to look at closely. Replacing a roof is not cheap. It it’s straighforward. Replacing windows is a lot of work and not as easy.
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djpeteski
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by djpeteski »

ltuxl wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:55 pm
Questions for the Bogleheads community:
- Would you buy it if you were in a similar situation? If not, why not?
Sometimes a new home is a better value. I was faced with a similar situation many years ago and had no choice but to buy new. Either I was going to pay the same for a 20 year old home that would also need a remodel, or I could buy new.

Keep in mind, that is not often the case. Typically these homes are marketed and priced like new cars. You are often paying a lot more for a new home then a comparable existing home (with remodel included). So please just check your math and situation.
- Does anyone have experience with buying a new home and had issues?
Yea I've built two. The thing you want to keep in mind is to spend on things that are structural. For example, In my existing house I paid for the garage extension and did a rough in for a deep sink in the garage. The price they wanted to install the actual sink was pretty high, but by doing the rough in, I was able to add it at a later date using a bit of sweat equity. I also did a pool pre-wire, but did not add a pool. It is unlikely that I ever will given that I have been there 12 years. Still the pre-wire cost like $50, so no big loss and I could use it for other things like some outdoor lighting.
- Does anyone have experience specifically with Ryan Homes?
The first home I built was a Maronda Home, one of the worst out there. It is still standing today, and while I did have some issues, they were relatively minor.
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ltuxl
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by ltuxl »

djpeteski wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:58 am
ltuxl wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:55 pm
Questions for the Bogleheads community:
- Would you buy it if you were in a similar situation? If not, why not?
Sometimes a new home is a better value. I was faced with a similar situation many years ago and had no choice but to buy new. Either I was going to pay the same for a 20 year old home that would also need a remodel, or I could buy new.

Keep in mind, that is not often the case. Typically these homes are marketed and priced like new cars. You are often paying a lot more for a new home then a comparable existing home (with remodel included). So please just check your math and situation.

Yeah, my wife and I have looked for a long time off and on. Taking it more seriously in the relatively recent future, we are leaning towards Ryan Homes for all of the reasons I listed above. I simply don't want to spend the same amount for a house that is 30+ years old. We will only be adding 2-3 options if that and the price will fall perfectly in line with out budget.
- Does anyone have experience with buying a new home and had issues?
Yea I've built two. The thing you want to keep in mind is to spend on things that are structural. For example, In my existing house I paid for the garage extension and did a rough in for a deep sink in the garage. The price they wanted to install the actual sink was pretty high, but by doing the rough in, I was able to add it at a later date using a bit of sweat equity. I also did a pool pre-wire, but did not add a pool. It is unlikely that I ever will given that I have been there 12 years. Still the pre-wire cost like $50, so no big loss and I could use it for other things like some outdoor lighting.

Great suggestion about the rough in. This was suggested by a co-worker who mentioned it if we are unable to pay to have the basement finished up front. Right now this development is including the finished basement with the purchase of any new home, but the rough in is worth considering in other areas such as those you mentioned.
- Does anyone have experience specifically with Ryan Homes?
The first home I built was a Maronda Home, one of the worst out there. It is still standing today, and while I did have some issues, they were relatively minor.
This is good to hear... My brother in law owns a Ryan home - albeit in a different state - and its been great for them. Very few small issues. I know someone who lives in the community I am looking to purchase and they too have had very few small issues. I can only hope that being involved and mitigating my risk will result in a similar outcome.

Thanks for your post!
- Mr. Tux
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8foot7
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by 8foot7 »

We just built a "semi-custom" home from a national builder and I can tell you we will never do this again. Our previous home was a custom home built by a small local builder, and though it was not expensive, it was done well and we had very few issues (mostly the normal new home stuff like settling, nail pops, an occasional leak from a framing nail that penetrated a water line that rusted out). The house we just built via a tract builder was over twice as expensive and while we like it, it is clear the quality of construction was not as high as our previous home, and the warranty service is frustrating to use -- it has generally been a fight for everything and instead of fixing things the right way the first time, a series of ineffective and incremental time-wasting attempts at fixes are used before finally they break down and do the repair the way it should have been done the first time. None of that is to mention the quality of the upgrades, which are twice as expensive as they should have been and not nearly the quality that they should have exhibited.

With all of that said, we do not have major issues with the home yet coming into year two of ownership, but there have been many more minor issues than we expected and not all of them were the garden-variety new home repair items you would expect from new construction.

We do like our home and this was the most straightforward way for us to get the space we needed in the school system we wanted (we have a rather stringent set of requirements right now). However, we won't be building with a tract builder again. We'll find a lot ourselves and hire a local builder/architect for construction.
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by Trism »

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RickBoglehead
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by RickBoglehead »

Watty wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:16 pm
One thing to understand is that builders frequently(always ?) use a different LLC for each project. LLC stands for Limited Liability Corporation.

This means that if you have a problem once the project is done the LLC may not longer exist so that even it the parent company, like ACME builders, is still active you might have a hard time finding someone to sue since the LLC you were dealing with does not exist. That might not matter a lot though since they likely require you to use binding arbitration that is run by a trade groupe that is favorable to them.

Anyway I would not count on the warranty to take care of problems with a builder you suspect is dodgy.
Many years ago we looked at buying a home directly from one of the big builders. As you note, they setup a separate corporation for each project. I complained and said "your brochure brags about your NYSE listing, yet you won't put your name on the contract?" The company rep reached in a drawer and pulled out form B6 (I just made up that identifier), which was an already completed contract addendum that said that everywhere that the contract said "Big Builder LLC", it would now be "Big Builder, Inc, a NYSE-listed company". In other words, they only sell from the LLC to people who aren't smart enough (or don't have a lawyer advising them) to say they won't buy from it.
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ltuxl
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by ltuxl »

8foot7 wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:53 am We just built a "semi-custom" home from a national builder and I can tell you we will never do this again. Our previous home was a custom home built by a small local builder, and though it was not expensive, it was done well and we had very few issues (mostly the normal new home stuff like settling, nail pops, an occasional leak from a framing nail that penetrated a water line that rusted out). The house we just built via a tract builder was over twice as expensive and while we like it, it is clear the quality of construction was not as high as our previous home, and the warranty service is frustrating to use -- it has generally been a fight for everything and instead of fixing things the right way the first time, a series of ineffective and incremental time-wasting attempts at fixes are used before finally they break down and do the repair the way it should have been done the first time. None of that is to mention the quality of the upgrades, which are twice as expensive as they should have been and not nearly the quality that they should have exhibited.

With all of that said, we do not have major issues with the home yet coming into year two of ownership, but there have been many more minor issues than we expected and not all of them were the garden-variety new home repair items you would expect from new construction.

We do like our home and this was the most straightforward way for us to get the space we needed in the school system we wanted (we have a rather stringent set of requirements right now). However, we won't be building with a tract builder again. We'll find a lot ourselves and hire a local builder/architect for construction.
Thanks for responding. Glad to hear there were no major issues with your home coming into year two of ownership. I read about the nail pops and although I have not confirmed it, Ryan Homes will resolve those in one swoop. After I confirm our plan is to have them taken care of in month 10 or 11 of our first year.

Do you mind clarifying what "mostly normal new stuff" means as it relates to settling?
RickBoglehead wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:47 am
Watty wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:16 pm
One thing to understand is that builders frequently(always ?) use a different LLC for each project. LLC stands for Limited Liability Corporation.

This means that if you have a problem once the project is done the LLC may not longer exist so that even it the parent company, like ACME builders, is still active you might have a hard time finding someone to sue since the LLC you were dealing with does not exist. That might not matter a lot though since they likely require you to use binding arbitration that is run by a trade groupe that is favorable to them.

Anyway I would not count on the warranty to take care of problems with a builder you suspect is dodgy.
Many years ago we looked at buying a home directly from one of the big builders. As you note, they setup a separate corporation for each project. I complained and said "your brochure brags about your NYSE listing, yet you won't put your name on the contract?" The company rep reached in a drawer and pulled out form B6 (I just made up that identifier), which was an already completed contract addendum that said that everywhere that the contract said "Big Builder LLC", it would now be "Big Builder, Inc, a NYSE-listed company". In other words, they only sell from the LLC to people who aren't smart enough (or don't have a lawyer advising them) to say they won't buy from it.
Yeah that is very unfortunate. I have added a question to my list of questions for the next go around with the Ryan Homes sales person to ask about this issue. Thanks for sharing.
- Mr. Tux
Retired2013
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:53 pm

Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by Retired2013 »

I built my home 25 yrs ago, not a Ryan but possible some food thought.

I’ll call my builder, builder #1. New tract housing. Another builder (builder #2) started building across the street another tract about a year later. Builder #3 (Ryan Homes) started building another tract about two years later just down the street, around the corner. Every night for years when we went for our walk, we would visit the current houses going up from all three builders. We would comment on what we liked and problems we saw for each builder.

For the Ryan home tract, the first house to go up on that street wasn’t placed in the correct location. It didn’t have the correct setback. They had the foundation dug, footers in and blocks laid for the basement. Then they just bulldozed it in and dug again. To this day I wonder if they have any problems with their foundation.

When we look at how the foundation block was done, most of them look like a five-year-old mason the blocks. We always commented at the sloppy job the mason did on all the Ryan homes. Especially the corners.

Back then, Ryan homes was the first in our area to start using Chip board for the walls and roof. Then the third house going up didn’t even use chip board for the wall. They used something that looked like strong cardboard. Over the cardboard they placed the Tyvek and then siding. The inside walls were drywall. To this day, we call that house the cardboard house. It’s the only house that used that cardboard. Shortly after, Ryan sold the remaining tract to Builder #2.

End of my Ryan stories.

What’s important?

Location, Location, Location. Also spend now to upgrade things that can’t be done later.

I wanted a dry basement. I asked the builder to add another 3” of gravel to the basement. He said I was wasting my money. For an extra $250, I think it was money well spent.

I’m very tall. The standard basement at the time was 11 blocks. For an extra $1k we went to 13 blocks so I don’t have to duck. It would help to get a nice tall finished basement. Also ran plumbing under the basement floor for the bathroom. We expanded our garage so we didn’t have to have a shed. These were things we couldn’t change after the house were built.

How was the building site used before building?

For builder #1 (our builder) our land was an Apple Farm. For several years people were cutting down the apple trees in back of our house for fire wood. Once all of the trees were down, one day we see about 10 people out back dressed in white environmental suites with full face masks. What’s going on?

They were required to clear the top 6” of soil from pesticides used on the apple farm. How did they clear it? They dug a 6’ deep ditch at the back-property line of the unbuilt lots. They then bulldozed the 6” into the ditch to bury the soil. Do any of the people know what was done prior to buying the building lot? No. Was that done for my lot? Don’t know 25 yrs later.

About 10 years-ago, builder #2 across the street was expanding his tract. He was having dump truck after dump truck bringing in fill for his new section. After several days of dirt coming from the city, the town halted the dumping. Turns out the dirt being brought in from the city was dirt from an early 1900 Iron Mining Co. The soil was all contaminated. The town made builder #2 haul all of the fill out. To this day, builder #2 has not been able to build a single home on that section.

When we built, we checked-in daily at the home site either before work or after work. You’ll want to see the foundation before the back-fill. How did they back-fill? Shouldn’t just be bulldozed in.

Look for little thing like our dinning room light fixture wasn’t in the middle of the dinning room. It was on the wrong side of the 2x10. Had it moved before the drywall was put up. Other plugs in the wrong location. Plumber only put one nail in each clap in the basement. Work with the builder as soon as you see something wrong.

On one of my days there, the builder crew was cleaning out the basement. They brought up some 2x4 with nails in them. They laid them down on the new kitchen floor and then another sub-contractor walked on them. Guess what happen? The nails punctured the floor. New flooring! I don’t know who paid for it.

They also put in the wrong flooring in the master bedroom. New flooring! Not my cost!.

Windows. We were told the windows were better than Anderson. New at the time, double pane with tilt-in. The home was going to be very energy efficient. Fifteen years later, the top pane will not stay up. All of the neighbors are having the same problem. The manufacture has gone bankrupt. We decide to replace all 28 windows at a cost of $28k.

Roofing. We started building in January (Up-state New York). The roof never sealed correctly. Winds over 35 mph shingles would blow off, spring and fall. New roof put on 15 years later. Roofer said the plywood used for the roof should have been an 1/8 thicker to hold the nails better.

Next door neighbor had his vinyl siding blow off of the whole east side of his home during a wind storm within the first year. Builder told him it was an act of God and to turn the damage into his homeowner insurance. No warranty claim.

When the roofer was putting on the new roof, they just roofed over one of the vent holes with no vent. Six months after we moved in, water started to pour in one night during a heavy downpour. The next morning, we put in a warranty notice. We were told it might be 10 days before the roofer could come out and check. Unacceptable! Another storm was in the forecast in the next couple of days. Get it fixed before the next storm comes. We didn’t know that they didn’t put a vent in at the hole until the roofer fixed it.

Take a close look at the warranty. It’s nice when they say they cover everything for the first year but can you get them to do it? Will they do it?
The same kitchen floor started to turn blue by the back door within six months. We put in the warranty notice at the year anniversary, just as the contract stated. We followed the contract as written. Two years later, we are still waiting on warrant work to be completed. Turns out the retailer for the flooring went bankrupt. The builder doesn’t want to pay for another new floor but he doesn’t have anybody to go back to. After three years of stories and delays, I took the builder to small claims court. I won, but I don’t have a clue how the judge figured the settlement amount. I was only awarded a couple hundred dollars for a floor that was going to cost thousand to replace. The builder talked about taking a piece of flooring from under the island and using that to fix the floor. That was the first time I heard of that.

As other have said, talk to the people that have built with the builder. As I have talked to people looking at building lots, I tell them to look at the warranty section closely. Another neighbor has been trying to get his foyer hardwood floor fixed for over 10 years. Every year they come to fix the floor and it just is never correct. They have since moved without the floor ever getting fixed correctly.

A dirty little secret in our area.

The same neighbor with the flooring built the same home as we have. However, his property tax is $1k less than ours each year. He would say, I don’t know why everybody’s taxes are so much higher! Turns out several things happen.

First, he was a car dealership financial manager. He was a good negotiator. The base price for the home was $150k. He went to the builder without a realtor and said lower the price by 3% since I’m not bringing a broker to you that you need to pay. The builder balked but finally agreed. So, his base started at $145,500. That was his “contract price”. He really couldn’t afford anything else. All additional addon was on the side agreement.
Stupid us, we started with a base of $150k even though we didn’t have a broker either. We then added everything we could think of to the contract. Up-grade appliances, carpeting, crown molding, fireplace, oak stairs. By the time we were done, our contract price was $168k. We then had a few items on the side agreement from changes.

Here’s the dirty little secret. The town uses the “contract price” as the sale price so that becomes your assessed value. His assessed value was $145,500 were mine was $168,000. I tried to challenge the assessment against his home but the assessor said no. Fifteen years latter when they go to sell their home, it turns out that the home shows as 1800 sqft when it should be 2500 sqft. The builder was going to put a 1800 sqft speck home on the lot when my neighbor came in and bought the lot. Apparently, the assessor never got the change in the home being built on the lot.

Would we do it again? Yes. The builder was good except for the warranty claims. I'd button up the warranty section.

Good luck!
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ltuxl
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by ltuxl »

Retired2013 wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:38 am I built my home 25 yrs ago, not a Ryan but possible some food thought.

I’ll call my builder, builder #1. New tract housing. Another builder (builder #2) started building across the street another tract about a year later. Builder #3 (Ryan Homes) started building another tract about two years later just down the street, around the corner. Every night for years when we went for our walk, we would visit the current houses going up from all three builders. We would comment on what we liked and problems we saw for each builder.

For the Ryan home tract, the first house to go up on that street wasn’t placed in the correct location. It didn’t have the correct setback. They had the foundation dug, footers in and blocks laid for the basement. Then they just bulldozed it in and dug again. To this day I wonder if they have any problems with their foundation.

When we look at how the foundation block was done, most of them look like a five-year-old mason the blocks. We always commented at the sloppy job the mason did on all the Ryan homes. Especially the corners.

Back then, Ryan homes was the first in our area to start using Chip board for the walls and roof. Then the third house going up didn’t even use chip board for the wall. They used something that looked like strong cardboard. Over the cardboard they placed the Tyvek and then siding. The inside walls were drywall. To this day, we call that house the cardboard house. It’s the only house that used that cardboard. Shortly after, Ryan sold the remaining tract to Builder #2.

End of my Ryan stories.

What’s important?

Location, Location, Location. Also spend now to upgrade things that can’t be done later.

I wanted a dry basement. I asked the builder to add another 3” of gravel to the basement. He said I was wasting my money. For an extra $250, I think it was money well spent.

I’m very tall. The standard basement at the time was 11 blocks. For an extra $1k we went to 13 blocks so I don’t have to duck. It would help to get a nice tall finished basement. Also ran plumbing under the basement floor for the bathroom. We expanded our garage so we didn’t have to have a shed. These were things we couldn’t change after the house were built.

How was the building site used before building?

For builder #1 (our builder) our land was an Apple Farm. For several years people were cutting down the apple trees in back of our house for fire wood. Once all of the trees were down, one day we see about 10 people out back dressed in white environmental suites with full face masks. What’s going on?

They were required to clear the top 6” of soil from pesticides used on the apple farm. How did they clear it? They dug a 6’ deep ditch at the back-property line of the unbuilt lots. They then bulldozed the 6” into the ditch to bury the soil. Do any of the people know what was done prior to buying the building lot? No. Was that done for my lot? Don’t know 25 yrs later.

About 10 years-ago, builder #2 across the street was expanding his tract. He was having dump truck after dump truck bringing in fill for his new section. After several days of dirt coming from the city, the town halted the dumping. Turns out the dirt being brought in from the city was dirt from an early 1900 Iron Mining Co. The soil was all contaminated. The town made builder #2 haul all of the fill out. To this day, builder #2 has not been able to build a single home on that section.

When we built, we checked-in daily at the home site either before work or after work. You’ll want to see the foundation before the back-fill. How did they back-fill? Shouldn’t just be bulldozed in.

Look for little thing like our dinning room light fixture wasn’t in the middle of the dinning room. It was on the wrong side of the 2x10. Had it moved before the drywall was put up. Other plugs in the wrong location. Plumber only put one nail in each clap in the basement. Work with the builder as soon as you see something wrong.

On one of my days there, the builder crew was cleaning out the basement. They brought up some 2x4 with nails in them. They laid them down on the new kitchen floor and then another sub-contractor walked on them. Guess what happen? The nails punctured the floor. New flooring! I don’t know who paid for it.

They also put in the wrong flooring in the master bedroom. New flooring! Not my cost!.

Windows. We were told the windows were better than Anderson. New at the time, double pane with tilt-in. The home was going to be very energy efficient. Fifteen years later, the top pane will not stay up. All of the neighbors are having the same problem. The manufacture has gone bankrupt. We decide to replace all 28 windows at a cost of $28k.

Roofing. We started building in January (Up-state New York). The roof never sealed correctly. Winds over 35 mph shingles would blow off, spring and fall. New roof put on 15 years later. Roofer said the plywood used for the roof should have been an 1/8 thicker to hold the nails better.

Next door neighbor had his vinyl siding blow off of the whole east side of his home during a wind storm within the first year. Builder told him it was an act of God and to turn the damage into his homeowner insurance. No warranty claim.

When the roofer was putting on the new roof, they just roofed over one of the vent holes with no vent. Six months after we moved in, water started to pour in one night during a heavy downpour. The next morning, we put in a warranty notice. We were told it might be 10 days before the roofer could come out and check. Unacceptable! Another storm was in the forecast in the next couple of days. Get it fixed before the next storm comes. We didn’t know that they didn’t put a vent in at the hole until the roofer fixed it.

Take a close look at the warranty. It’s nice when they say they cover everything for the first year but can you get them to do it? Will they do it?
The same kitchen floor started to turn blue by the back door within six months. We put in the warranty notice at the year anniversary, just as the contract stated. We followed the contract as written. Two years later, we are still waiting on warrant work to be completed. Turns out the retailer for the flooring went bankrupt. The builder doesn’t want to pay for another new floor but he doesn’t have anybody to go back to. After three years of stories and delays, I took the builder to small claims court. I won, but I don’t have a clue how the judge figured the settlement amount. I was only awarded a couple hundred dollars for a floor that was going to cost thousand to replace. The builder talked about taking a piece of flooring from under the island and using that to fix the floor. That was the first time I heard of that.

As other have said, talk to the people that have built with the builder. As I have talked to people looking at building lots, I tell them to look at the warranty section closely. Another neighbor has been trying to get his foyer hardwood floor fixed for over 10 years. Every year they come to fix the floor and it just is never correct. They have since moved without the floor ever getting fixed correctly.

A dirty little secret in our area.

The same neighbor with the flooring built the same home as we have. However, his property tax is $1k less than ours each year. He would say, I don’t know why everybody’s taxes are so much higher! Turns out several things happen.

First, he was a car dealership financial manager. He was a good negotiator. The base price for the home was $150k. He went to the builder without a realtor and said lower the price by 3% since I’m not bringing a broker to you that you need to pay. The builder balked but finally agreed. So, his base started at $145,500. That was his “contract price”. He really couldn’t afford anything else. All additional addon was on the side agreement.
Stupid us, we started with a base of $150k even though we didn’t have a broker either. We then added everything we could think of to the contract. Up-grade appliances, carpeting, crown molding, fireplace, oak stairs. By the time we were done, our contract price was $168k. We then had a few items on the side agreement from changes.

Here’s the dirty little secret. The town uses the “contract price” as the sale price so that becomes your assessed value. His assessed value was $145,500 were mine was $168,000. I tried to challenge the assessment against his home but the assessor said no. Fifteen years latter when they go to sell their home, it turns out that the home shows as 1800 sqft when it should be 2500 sqft. The builder was going to put a 1800 sqft speck home on the lot when my neighbor came in and bought the lot. Apparently, the assessor never got the change in the home being built on the lot.

Would we do it again? Yes. The builder was good except for the warranty claims. I'd button up the warranty section.

Good luck!
Thank you so much for your detailed post!

I'm hoping by being on top of Ryan as they build - if we go this route - I can stop some of the issues you mentioned from happening. One thing I need to clarify with them is, if I (or more likely my inspector) finds something wrong, how much say do I have in getting it fixed/resolved before the next stage of building happens?

Based on all your information I have added some additional questions to my list for finding out exactly how the warranty works. Getting more information on the finer details of that process is a must.
- Mr. Tux
Bacchus01
Posts: 3182
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:35 pm

Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by Bacchus01 »

Retired2013 wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:38 am A dirty little secret in our area.

The same neighbor with the flooring built the same home as we have. However, his property tax is $1k less than ours each year. He would say, I don’t know why everybody’s taxes are so much higher! Turns out several things happen.

First, he was a car dealership financial manager. He was a good negotiator. The base price for the home was $150k. He went to the builder without a realtor and said lower the price by 3% since I’m not bringing a broker to you that you need to pay. The builder balked but finally agreed. So, his base started at $145,500. That was his “contract price”. He really couldn’t afford anything else. All additional addon was on the side agreement.
Stupid us, we started with a base of $150k even though we didn’t have a broker either. We then added everything we could think of to the contract. Up-grade appliances, carpeting, crown molding, fireplace, oak stairs. By the time we were done, our contract price was $168k. We then had a few items on the side agreement from changes.

Here’s the dirty little secret. The town uses the “contract price” as the sale price so that becomes your assessed value. His assessed value was $145,500 were mine was $168,000. I tried to challenge the assessment against his home but the assessor said no. Fifteen years latter when they go to sell their home, it turns out that the home shows as 1800 sqft when it should be 2500 sqft. The builder was going to put a 1800 sqft speck home on the lot when my neighbor came in and bought the lot. Apparently, the assessor never got the change in the home being built on the lot.

Would we do it again? Yes. The builder was good except for the warranty claims. I'd button up the warranty section.

Good luck!
I'll tell you another dirty little secret I've done in the opposite direction. It's hard to do it now with lending requirements, but in early 2000's I bought a house at asking price, but we offered them $50K more than asking if we would get $50K back at closing. The lender was fine because we had all the money down and otherwise had the finances to cover it. The realtor was fine because they got another 6% cut of $50K. The owners were okay because they got the price very close to their asking (net of realtor fees). We knew we were only going to be in the house a couple of years. We paid a few hundred more in taxes for the first two years. When we went to sell it, the asking price (and market "assessed price") was now bumped up over the $50K we paid OVER the original asking price. I think we got another $20K. So, we got $50K cash-out when we bought it and then got $70K more than you could argue it was worth when we sold it.

It was risky and speculative. I don't think that would work today.
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ltuxl
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by ltuxl »

Bacchus01 wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:58 am
Retired2013 wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:38 am A dirty little secret in our area.

The same neighbor with the flooring built the same home as we have. However, his property tax is $1k less than ours each year. He would say, I don’t know why everybody’s taxes are so much higher! Turns out several things happen.

First, he was a car dealership financial manager. He was a good negotiator. The base price for the home was $150k. He went to the builder without a realtor and said lower the price by 3% since I’m not bringing a broker to you that you need to pay. The builder balked but finally agreed. So, his base started at $145,500. That was his “contract price”. He really couldn’t afford anything else. All additional addon was on the side agreement.
Stupid us, we started with a base of $150k even though we didn’t have a broker either. We then added everything we could think of to the contract. Up-grade appliances, carpeting, crown molding, fireplace, oak stairs. By the time we were done, our contract price was $168k. We then had a few items on the side agreement from changes.

Here’s the dirty little secret. The town uses the “contract price” as the sale price so that becomes your assessed value. His assessed value was $145,500 were mine was $168,000. I tried to challenge the assessment against his home but the assessor said no. Fifteen years latter when they go to sell their home, it turns out that the home shows as 1800 sqft when it should be 2500 sqft. The builder was going to put a 1800 sqft speck home on the lot when my neighbor came in and bought the lot. Apparently, the assessor never got the change in the home being built on the lot.

Would we do it again? Yes. The builder was good except for the warranty claims. I'd button up the warranty section.

Good luck!
I'll tell you another dirty little secret I've done in the opposite direction. It's hard to do it now with lending requirements, but in early 2000's I bought a house at asking price, but we offered them $50K more than asking if we would get $50K back at closing. The lender was fine because we had all the money down and otherwise had the finances to cover it. The realtor was fine because they got another 6% cut of $50K. The owners were okay because they got the price very close to their asking (net of realtor fees). We knew we were only going to be in the house a couple of years. We paid a few hundred more in taxes for the first two years. When we went to sell it, the asking price (and market "assessed price") was now bumped up over the $50K we paid OVER the original asking price. I think we got another $20K. So, we got $50K cash-out when we bought it and then got $70K more than you could argue it was worth when we sold it.

It was risky and speculative. I don't think that would work today.
Yeah not sure that would work today but thanks again. I'm getting excited having all but decided to move forward... Lots of questions to ask and get information about but this post has definitely made me feel better about moving forward.
- Mr. Tux
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ltuxl
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by ltuxl »

OP here, not sure if it is best to start a new thread but on more question... Ryan Homes offers 10k towards closing if you use their mortgage company. Other than making sure rates are competitive, what other considerations should I make when trying to decide if I should use their mortgage company or not. I did find out they have the right to sell the mortgage and based on a bit of information from a friend who recently bought an NV home (assuming its the same for Ryan since they are under the same parent company), they sell the mortgage to Pen Fed (one of a few I planned to check out for competitive rates).
- Mr. Tux
k3vb0t
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by k3vb0t »

ltuxl wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:29 am OP here, not sure if it is best to start a new thread but on more question... Ryan Homes offers 10k towards closing if you use their mortgage company. Other than making sure rates are competitive, what other considerations should I make when trying to decide if I should use their mortgage company or not. I did find out they have the right to sell the mortgage and based on a bit of information from a friend who recently bought an NV home (assuming its the same for Ryan since they are under the same parent company), they sell the mortgage to Pen Fed (one of a few I planned to check out for competitive rates).
Check that there's no penalty for prepaying/paying it off
renue74
Posts: 1893
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by renue74 »

National builders have gotten building science down. The reason they offer X number of plans is because each plan is a pre-packaged "kit." When you go to a job site, the "kit" is delivered based on the plans and it includes all materials to frame, rough-in, etc. a house.

Employees are forbidden to use kit items from lot 1 to lot 2, etc. because it will screw up the process. If the guys have excess materials at the end of their job, they have to throw them in the dumpster.

That being said, the craftsmanship part is totally localized. Ryan Homes in a Texas neighborhood might be far better than Ryan Homes in Florida.

I like the suggestion above of going into the neighborhood you want to live in and asking your neighbors. That way, you get a local point of view of how local Ryan management deals with warranty work, etc.
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hand
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by hand »

Production builders are incented to build houses to be sold rather than houses to own. Typically, this means trendy finishes and floorplans and a relatively polished sales staff are valued more highly than livability, longevity and plain old quailty.

With hundereds of thousands of units built, it seems likely that most buyers have a reasonable experiance, but there are obviously those who have absolutely terrible experiances with limited recourse.

Personally, I struggle to understand the sweet spot of production built houses unless a buyer prioritizes brand new over everything else.
For the short term buyer (<5 yrs) they have to deal with the hassle of the build process and then deal with all the teething pains. When selling, one is likely to compete with *brand new* units from the builder or a nearby builder.
For the longer term buyer, some of the quality issues are likely to come into play - replacing builder grade HVAC and appliances, poor insulation etc.

Long story short - don't scrimp on quality.
prats777
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by prats777 »

Hi What did you finally decide? did you buy a Ryan home?
daheld
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by daheld »

Bacchus01 wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:37 am
brianH wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:59 pm
ltuxl wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:55 pm built in the 70s-80s. We are concerned about issues with older homes such as repairs.
You might want to rethink this logic.

IMHO, homes built around the late 70s early 80s have a number of things going for them. In most cases:

-No asbestos
-No lead
-Copper wiring
-Modern electrical (200amp) service
-Larger lots
-Foundation and drainage issues would've shown up by now
-No problematic 'stucco' (EIFS)
-Built before major housing booms where construction quality got... questionable.
-Lower taxes

As with any home purchase, a quality inspection of major systems is required, and you obviously want previous owners to have kept the place up (preferably not a fix-it-quick flip.) As others have noted, new homes are frequently not maintenance-free, even for the first few years, and it's pretty likely that if major issues show up about a decade later, the builder/warranty will be long gone.

The Philadelphia Inquirer did a must-read expose about Toll recently, but it applies to most of these builders: http://www.philly.com/real-estate/housi ... 81115.html
I think this is spot on regarding 70s/80s homes. Generally well constructed but likely poor floor plans. Also, while the bones are probably among the most solid, I think the technology in windows has come a long long way and that is one are to look at closely. Replacing a roof is not cheap. It it’s straighforward. Replacing windows is a lot of work and not as easy.
If a home is well built and windows properly installed, it is mostly a myth that things like argon glass and different glazes meaningfully impact utility bills. I would put my 40 year old solid wood Andersens up against anything new on the market. Obviously old, cheap windows are different. But good, quality windows that are properly installed, even if they're old, are not meaningfully worse than new, expensive, "high tech" windows.
daheld
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by daheld »

I would highly encourage you to rethink your thesis that older homes always come with more issues and headaches and are poorly constructed.
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8foot7
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by 8foot7 »

8foot7 wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:53 am We just built a "semi-custom" home from a national builder and I can tell you we will never do this again. Our previous home was a custom home built by a small local builder, and though it was not expensive, it was done well and we had very few issues (mostly the normal new home stuff like settling, nail pops, an occasional leak from a framing nail that penetrated a water line that rusted out). The house we just built via a tract builder was over twice as expensive and while we like it, it is clear the quality of construction was not as high as our previous home, and the warranty service is frustrating to use -- it has generally been a fight for everything and instead of fixing things the right way the first time, a series of ineffective and incremental time-wasting attempts at fixes are used before finally they break down and do the repair the way it should have been done the first time. None of that is to mention the quality of the upgrades, which are twice as expensive as they should have been and not nearly the quality that they should have exhibited.

With all of that said, we do not have major issues with the home yet coming into year two of ownership, but there have been many more minor issues than we expected and not all of them were the garden-variety new home repair items you would expect from new construction.

We do like our home and this was the most straightforward way for us to get the space we needed in the school system we wanted (we have a rather stringent set of requirements right now). However, we won't be building with a tract builder again. We'll find a lot ourselves and hire a local builder/architect for construction.
I see this thread was bumped so I'll give an update. We still live in the home referenced above; we've now been here a little over four years. There is still a to-us significant issue with our hardwood flooring installation that is still outstanding with the warranty division. (Essentially there is a place at perhaps the most visible spot in the entire lower floor -- entryway, kitchen, dining room, steps, and path to living room -- where the hardwood separates in cold weather.) We are re now at a standoff--the builder has been through six (yes, 1, 2, 3,4 ,5, 6) warranty representatives in the four years we've owned the place and every single one of them has wanted to start at troubleshooting step 1 despite all of that already having been done. I finally got so pissed off with the sixth guy telling me I needed to install a humidifier ("all homes in the south need them") before they'd do any additional work that I told him to get the **** off my property and never come back; the fifth guy had tried that line before and I told him if I needed a humidifier to not see the subfloor the entire winter in my home then they should have put one in the house to begin with as part of the $750,000 new build price.

So to this day we live with this crap. That is among other issues they poorly made go away (I won't say resolved) -- the grout in the all-white master bath is orange from the red clay that leeched into the water they used when grouting during construction. They refuse to regrout and kept sending steam cleaners out. The crown moulding in the master bedroom fell off on one wall. The drywall finishing is terrible in half of the upstairs; they were out about a half dozen times to continue repairing it; it still degrades to this day to the point I will have to install my own crown moulding to cover it up before we sell the house.

At one point I had a quote from a printer to make a sign that says "BEFORE YOU BUY A HOME OUT HERE, COME TALK TO ME ABOUT THE QUALITY" and I was seriously considering hiring my son at $7/hour to sit at the entrance of the neighborhood and hold the sign, just as a relatively cheap way of leverage. Now this part of the neighborhood is alas completely built out and everyone from the builder has moved on to other victims, so that's off the table.

It's not just us either. The neighbor has them admitting in writing they installed an inadeuqately-sized HVAC system in his home after fighting for at least two years post-closing and they essentially washed their hands of the situation after putting a different thermostat in and adding a higher-rated blower and dared him to sue them. At one point he lawyered up, but then I heard nothing else about it; I wonder if he settled and isn't allowed to talk about it.

We have been in this mass-built home now a length of time equivalent to when we were in the previous house I referenced above, built by a small local builder who cared, so it's a fair evaluation to say we've had many, many, many more issues of serious quality and nature in this mass-built home than we did by this point in the other home.

I will never, ever, ever purchase a home from a mass builder again.
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hand
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by hand »

8foot7 wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:31 am
At one point I had a quote from a printer to make a sign that says "BEFORE YOU BUY A HOME OUT HERE, COME TALK TO ME ABOUT THE QUALITY" and I was seriously considering hiring my son at $7/hour to sit at the entrance of the neighborhood and hold the sign, just as a relatively cheap way of leverage. Now this part of the neighborhood is alas completely built out and everyone from the builder has moved on to other victims, so that's off the table.
...

I will never, ever, ever purchase a home from a mass builder again.
Ugh, sorry for the hassles, but big respect for coming up with a great non-linear approach!

On the plus side, despite the warts, be glad you've been able to continue to live in your home - I have an acquaintance who owned in a production built "community" of townhouses where the exterior fire sprinkler lines (terminating over exterior balconies) were not properly insulated and air sealed. The first real winter cold snap caused the lines to freeze into the interior of the property, split, and begin forcibly leaking when they thawed. Multiple units were uninhabitable for months! Only upside was that the issue occurred in the first two years, and the development was not yet completed, so builder ended up taking (some) responsibility. I can only imagine legal nightmare had the first cold winter occurred 5 years after building and after the community / LLC was closed.

Sure would be fun to have a production builder horror stories thread to consolidate these types of issues and give prospective buyers a view to the value of quality, and the "aspirational" nature of warranty promises when they aren't accompanied by enforcement mechanisms.
Valuethinker
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Re: Thoughts on Buying a Ryan Home?

Post by Valuethinker »

daheld wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:15 am
If a home is well built and windows properly installed, it is mostly a myth that things like argon glass and different glazes meaningfully impact utility bills. I would put my 40 year old solid wood Andersens up against anything new on the market. Obviously old, cheap windows are different. But good, quality windows that are properly installed, even if they're old, are not meaningfully worse than new, expensive, "high tech" windows.
If you look at the R-Values there is a big difference.

I have single pane windows, some of the them the original 1890s glass. R value? 1 or 2.

A modern argon glass window could be R 7-8.

A related problem, and I didn't think enough about this when we did our loft (3rd floor) extension, is that there is no environmentally safe way of disposing of a PVC-U (plastic) window frame. I have created junk that will last hundreds of years in landfill and will leach out poisonous additives. Timber or aluminium framed windows cost a lot more but don't have these issues.

So buying new windows is creating "stuff" and that has a significant environmental & energy cost.

One should not ignore the comfort issues in modern windows - cold air cells are created next to windows, which cause cold drafts to circulate in the room. That's less of a problem with modern windows.

On utility bills

I agree with you re "utility bills" in the sense of payback. If we go to new windows, the payback is likely as long as the life of the window (20 years say).

It does of course matter how extreme your climate is, and what your utilities cost. Some parts of the USA, heating & cooling costs are 2x, even 3x, what they are in the Midwest. (primarily NYC, New England, California I think).

In the Round

One should generally not preemptively replace windows although there is a stronger case for windows on the north side of a house (in a heating dominated environment). Also rooflights. When one does, they should be top quality argon-filled ones, generally.

There's quite a lot of good advice out there (including payback calculations) on various green building sites.
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