Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

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retired recently
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by retired recently » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:11 pm

Re college, nowadays everyone does have high SATs and numerous APs, etc but getting into the top 15 is out of reach unless your are a URM, lucky, a recruited athlete, a legacy, etc. So do not count on getting into a USNWR top 15 and realize that being successful can be done out of any college, depends on the person. Don't get me wrong, we will apply to tippy-top schools but realize our son has little chances of getting accepted.

We have seen some amazing kids not get accepted to top schools and some kids that could not compare get accepted. These days if you are a girl in STEM there are tremendous opportunities and the bar is not that high for top school admission.

staythecourse
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by staythecourse » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:27 pm

Bacchus01 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:44 am
U.S.-educated people are often NOT the smartest, but often ARE the best at solving problems.
I've been doing a bit of research of late on educational systems and the ONLY thing I know that U.S. kids lead in is overconfidence. Every study has said the same.

It is possible that many of these great problem solvers are the best in the U.S., but is is attributed to the educational system? My guess is Gates, Zukerberg, preeminent scientists, etc.. are partly successful not due to the educational system, but the availability of financial funding for their endeavors. Great part of capitalism is if there is a chance of making money of something there will be folks around to fund it to take a cut of the pie.

Good luck.

p.s. FYI, the little research I have done has shown very little correlation to homework and scholastic performance especially early in life and more then hour per day. Heck, grades itself are not used in Finland (a perennial powerhouse for education) until late in their schooling.
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” | -Jack Bogle

GCD
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by GCD » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:32 pm

zeeke42 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:53 am
OnTrack2020 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:39 am
An IEP is a document which lays out a plan for students with disabilities to help them succeed while in public school. We have/had 3 children with IEPs.

You could always give public school a try. I think they would offer more in the way of gifted programs. I've seen bright 5-year-olds become very average by the time high school graduation rolls around. And, let's face it, there are a lot of people who think their child is smart when they are younger. You really will know more regarding academic giftedness once the child is in high school.
IEPs aren't just for students with disabilities. IEPs are how kids get placed in gifted programs too.
IEPs for gifted? Are you sure? My understanding is an IEP or 504 can be instituted if the kid has learning disabilities. Now giftedness and LD are certainly simultaneously possible and often are. But the IEP isn't to address the gifted needs. If you are gifted and don't have a LD I doubt you are going to get an IEP. It might just work out that some of the accommodations put in place to address the LD also simultaneously address gifted needs, but the documented purpose and justification for the IEP will be the LD.

JBTX
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by JBTX » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:32 pm

opus360 wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:07 pm
Thank you for the suggestions.

We have looked at public schools. The general comments I received from other parents are "public schools goal is to bring less able students to certain acceptable level". However, if he is not learning much at current school, there is no harm moving to public school.

As far as home schooling, we both feel guilty of not reading to him enough. Many times, he wants to do science experiments. It takes me long time to come up with one or get the materials to do it. So, I have doubts if we are capable of home schooling him. But, it is still an option.
I'm sure there are examples all over the board, but in my experience and my kids experience with public schools, bright kids are allowed to push ahead and academically excel.

I have heard, and there is some evidence that some private religious based schools tend to lag academically. Again, I am sure it varies based upon circumstance.

I'm not sure I'd get too worked up about their achievements in early grades. From my experience, kids will tend to gravitate towards their ability level over time.

As they get older, to the extent they need help, I'd hire a tutor and go to public school vs paying for a private school.

retired recently
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by retired recently » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:36 pm

If you go to almost any high school academic competition these days in the US, the best problem-solvers are Asian kids, typically males. I have read many studies that attribute this to everything from their parents being better educated than most to Asians having higher IQs on average. No idea why it is this way but it is...

The US does very well in placing highly in worldwide high school competitions but most of the kids are the offspring of Asian parents that have lived/worked in the US but were not born or educated here. It is not our public schools that are educating the top kids.

DarthSage
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by DarthSage » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:41 pm

Mother of four here. All four of our kids were reading before K. We're huge fans of outside, personalized enrichment.

I'll give you one example--my oldest was reading chapter books by the time she hit kindergarten. Rather than just push her to read harder books--the content can be inappropriate for that age--we put her in language lessons (German). She just seemed to really like language. Fast forward to now, and she's bilingual (Spanish), she's a bilingual education teacher, continues to learn new languages, and has added a love of travel. While she was always an excellent student, she stood out more for her career path than her academic skills. She got a lot of crap for "only" being a teacher, but it's 100% the path she was meant for.

I'm personally not a huge fan of grade-skipping--BTDT, and it solves some problems, but can create others. It's not the right choice for every bright child that comes down the pike, for sure.

Look for ways to stimulate your child in areas of their interest. There's so much available in libraries and museums and online!

If your child is truly working above grade level in all areas, ask the teacher about compacted curriculum or differentiated curriculum. When my DD (not the language DD above) was in first grade, her teacher borrowed 4th grade level books on the same subject matter. So, for example, while her classmates were reading a first-grade level book on reptiles, my DD would have a 4th grade book on them. No big fuss was made, so I don't think anyone but the teacher and I knew.

GCD
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by GCD » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:43 pm

staythecourse wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:27 pm
FYI, the little research I have done has shown very little correlation to homework and scholastic performance especially early in life and more then hour per day. Heck, grades itself are not used in Finland (a perennial powerhouse for education) until late in their schooling.
I agree completely. Thankfully our kids are both in a HS where the principal bans homework over holiday breaks and about 1/3 of the teachers don't give homework at all.

staythecourse wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:27 pm
Bacchus01 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:44 am
U.S.-educated people are often NOT the smartest, but often ARE the best at solving problems.
I've been doing a bit of research of late on educational systems and the ONLY thing I know that U.S. kids lead in is overconfidence. Every study has said the same.
I know the US gets beat up a lot in international rankings at the HS level, but why then do our universities rank so well internationally? And why do so many foreigners want to study in the US? Why is the US such a home to innovation? I can't give you an answer, but it seems there is something more to education than simply memorizing facts and processes.

I think one of the reasons the US tends to do poorly on international tests is we educate everyone. Many other countries don't put all their kids through a college prep curriculum and the ones that get that education are the better performers. That's gonna skew the results.

Rupert
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by Rupert » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:00 pm

Jags4186 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:12 am
It is easy to be “smart” when one is 5 years old. It all depends on how much nurturing is given at home. Do you let the kid watch transformers all day long or are you doing number games? I think you should try the public school in your town. As your child gets older it will all likely even out. If it doesn’t then look for a private school. Keep pushing him or her at home. I could read in kindergarten and they were teaching the alphabet. No I’m not a genius my parents simply invested in hooked on phonics and made me do it.
This is an important point. Many kids come to kindergarten already knowing how to read, count to 100, etc. Many kids don't. The difference can be partly explained by the intellectual stimulation provided at home in the pre-school years, but it also can be partly explained by the fact that it just takes some kids a little longer for reading, etc., to click. When it clicks, they catch up really fast. So I'd be willing to bet that within a year other kids in your kid's current class will be operating at his level. For that reason, I'd be hesitant to switch schools now unless you have other problems with the school. I'd just supplement at home or in the community for now if he's otherwise happy. That said, there's a large Catholic school system in my city, and its elementary schools have a reputation for being less than rigorous academically. I have no idea how Catholic elementary schools are regarded elsewhere, but if that's the case where you are, then I would look closely at the public school option. (Curiously, the local Catholic high school in my city is top notch.)

ThatGuy
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by ThatGuy » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:10 pm

FlyAF wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:09 pm
Is there much academia happening in kindergarten? I mostly just remember trying not to be the kid who pee'd himself at nap time.
ThatKid's kindergarten class was introduced to subtraction by Thanksgiving of kindergarten.

He's more interested in the garden where he gets to pet the chickens.
Work is the curse of the drinking class - Oscar Wilde

Bacchus01
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by Bacchus01 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:16 pm

FireProof wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:16 am
Bacchus01 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:44 am

That is not to say we shouldn't do better. I think we should. On average we are lagging, but I generally think that is not about accelerating the top end (it's capped) but pulling up the bottom end of the spectrum. I'm not sure we've ever consistently lead in the global education metrics, however.

The US also has nearly 20% of it's population that was born outside the US. We accept more immigrants than the next country by a factor of nearly 4X. That has a huge impact on overall scores as well.
Not really true. We have a smaller foreign-born population than countries with more successful school systems like Germany, Sweden, Canada, Australia - the latter two have MANY more immigrants and MUCH higher test scores.
Not true. The US has the highest numbers at over 45M.
Last edited by Bacchus01 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by Bacchus01 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:22 pm

GCD wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:43 pm
staythecourse wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:27 pm
FYI, the little research I have done has shown very little correlation to homework and scholastic performance especially early in life and more then hour per day. Heck, grades itself are not used in Finland (a perennial powerhouse for education) until late in their schooling.
I agree completely. Thankfully our kids are both in a HS where the principal bans homework over holiday breaks and about 1/3 of the teachers don't give homework at all.

staythecourse wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:27 pm
Bacchus01 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:44 am
U.S.-educated people are often NOT the smartest, but often ARE the best at solving problems.
I've been doing a bit of research of late on educational systems and the ONLY thing I know that U.S. kids lead in is overconfidence. Every study has said the same.
I know the US gets beat up a lot in international rankings at the HS level, but why then do our universities rank so well internationally? And why do so many foreigners want to study in the US? Why is the US such a home to innovation? I can't give you an answer, but it seems there is something more to education than simply memorizing facts and processes.

I think one of the reasons the US tends to do poorly on international tests is we educate everyone. Many other countries don't put all their kids through a college prep curriculum and the ones that get that education are the better performers. That's gonna skew the results.
I was having a discussion in a China with a colleague just two weeks ago. We were comparing notes on the daily activities of our children who are both 13. I talked about how he has play practice, band practice, soccer practice, and forensics. He has very little homework and has straight A’s.

My Chinese colleague told me his son has 2-3 hours of homework per night that he and his wife both work with him on. He has no sports and nothing in the way of enrichment outside of school.

I asked him why he had so much homework and suck rigorous schooling.

He said “so he can get admitted to an American university.”

MathWizard
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by MathWizard » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:23 pm

Does your son read yet?

If not, read to him every night, and get a bedtime routine settled so he has enough sleep.

If he can, get him books/magazines to read. My oldest like Zoobooks as a magazine, so he would get
one a month, dedicated to a different animal. He liked getting his own mail.

Get him anything that has him reading. That opens up so many options to learn.

After reading, I concentrated on logic puzzles. Simple at first, the more complex.

If there is something that he can work with you on, say fixing a faucet, or some other household repair
(not involving power tools), let him "help" you, even if it is just handing you tools. He will like working with
you, and will understand how you solve problems.

Bacchus01
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by Bacchus01 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:25 pm

retired recently wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:36 pm
If you go to almost any high school academic competition these days in the US, the best problem-solvers are Asian kids, typically males. I have read many studies that attribute this to everything from their parents being better educated than most to Asians having higher IQs on average. No idea why it is this way but it is...

The US does very well in placing highly in worldwide high school competitions but most of the kids are the offspring of Asian parents that have lived/worked in the US but were not born or educated here. It is not our public schools that are educating the top kids.
You mean engaged parents make a difference?

I would suggest that you are possibly creating a correlation that is behavior based and not necessarily ethnic based.

Is it possible that the highly successful Asian kids come from highly successful Asian parents who are in the US because they were highly successful in their region of several Billion people?

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by Arabesque » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:31 pm

I don’t believe in pushing elementary school kids, probably because I was an unhappy double promotion.

My elder started kindergarten not knowing her letters (small or capital) much to the teacher’s horror. She figured them out fast and ultimately went to Harvard. Let your kid play, the basis of discovery. Please don’t drill ‘em, skill ‘em, and kill ‘em.

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by Ben Mathew » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:34 pm

opus360 wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:35 pm
My 5-year old kid is in kindergarten at a local catholic school in south Jersey. Based on the assignments, he already knows what they are taught in class. For example, they are teaching counting 1 to 10. But, he can count to over 100. In analogies for critical thinking, we teach him at home using a book for grades 1 to 2. Teacher tries to pair him with advance students but there is just no one at this level in his class (teacher's own words). So, I don't think he is learning much academically.
From what I've observed about the math curriculum based on my kids' experience in public school, K-2 is pretty laid back, but then around 3rd or 4th grades, starting around fractions, things start moving fast. In my opinion, it's actually too fast and poorly structured for most students to learn and understand the concepts properly. The problem with the common core curriculum in math is not that it's slow and behind, but that it's poorly executed. My solution has been to supplement with the Singapore Math series till about 5th grade. I found their curriculum much better organized than the math they learned at school. It's not more work. It's better work. I feel you could solve the crisis of elementary math education in the U.S. in one fell swoop by just switching to these books. In middle school, the Singapore series runs out of steam a bit, and we have switched to U.S. texts like Foerster's Algebra.

I don't feel that learning math quickly is important. Learning it well is. You might be able to accomplish that by supplementing at home. A challenge for us now with our kids in middle school is that they have a lot of homework already, so finding the time to supplement isn't easy.

retired recently
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by retired recently » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:48 pm

b0B wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:45 pm
retired recently wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:11 pm
I'm curious. You said your kid qualified for AIME in middle school. That's pretty rare, maybe 0.01% of 8th graders and 0.001% of 6th graders. When you say that you don't expect him to get into a "tippy-top school" is it because the academic merit is insufficient, or is it instead because all the non-academic criteria are so heavily weighted.
I think he will be a strong STEM candidate at any school as he is strong academically and non-academically. From what I read about the tippy-top colleges there are only so many spots though and they like to hold some for various groups such that there are not that many left over to go around. He will apply and he might get lucky but I do not believe it is likely and we make sure he is aware of the slim chances so he will not be shattered in the future.

On College Confidential there was a recent post from a kid that is USACO Platinum, USAMO qualified (AIME like 5 or 6 times) and made the cutoff for USAPHO. He was recently rejected to Cornell I believe. These types of results happen frequently it seems. Contrast this to a girl in our area that was accepted to a very top school for computer science. We know her pretty well and she is smart and is making the most out of this super opportunity which speaks highly of her, but she is nowhere near the level of quite a few kids we know from my son's math circle that did not have similar results. Girls in STEM are a huge advantage at this stage.

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by EddyB » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:59 pm

GCD wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:32 pm
zeeke42 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:53 am
OnTrack2020 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:39 am
An IEP is a document which lays out a plan for students with disabilities to help them succeed while in public school. We have/had 3 children with IEPs.

You could always give public school a try. I think they would offer more in the way of gifted programs. I've seen bright 5-year-olds become very average by the time high school graduation rolls around. And, let's face it, there are a lot of people who think their child is smart when they are younger. You really will know more regarding academic giftedness once the child is in high school.
IEPs aren't just for students with disabilities. IEPs are how kids get placed in gifted programs too.
IEPs for gifted? Are you sure? My understanding is an IEP or 504 can be instituted if the kid has learning disabilities. Now giftedness and LD are certainly simultaneously possible and often are. But the IEP isn't to address the gifted needs. If you are gifted and don't have a LD I doubt you are going to get an IEP. It might just work out that some of the accommodations put in place to address the LD also simultaneously address gifted needs, but the documented purpose and justification for the IEP will be the LD.
In my state, Oregon, "gifted and talented" is identified as a need-based program, like learning disabilities. At least in our district, students identified as gifted are offered IEPs.

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by Rupert » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:06 pm

Bacchus01 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:22 pm

I was having a discussion in a China with a colleague just two weeks ago. We were comparing notes on the daily activities of our children who are both 13. I talked about how he has play practice, band practice, soccer practice, and forensics. He has very little homework and has straight A’s.

My Chinese colleague told me his son has 2-3 hours of homework per night that he and his wife both work with him on. He has no sports and nothing in the way of enrichment outside of school.

I asked him why he had so much homework and suck rigorous schooling.

He said “so he can get admitted to an American university.”
A well-regarded book a few years back attributed American students' poor test scores, relative to their international peers, to the number of distractions in American schools, especially sports programs. There's just a lot going on in school here that isn't related to academic achievement. I can't say whether that's good or bad in the grand scheme of things, but it is a (or the) most likely explanation for why our kids are falling short of international standards.

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buccimane
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by buccimane » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:11 pm

I didn't read every single post, but note that you're speaking to some parents of children who were home-schooled.

My experience when I was younger with home-schooled peers is that yes, parents believe they are socially 'mature', but they rarely could relate to children their own age. This was true throughout all years of schooling. I'd take home-school recommendations from parents who home-schooled with a grain of salt. Just my experience.

And to think that your years in public or private school have nothing to do with 'real life' is absurd. Confrontations, group dynamics, public speaking etc. are crucial in 'real life'- and are all difficult to duplicate in a home-school curriculum.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by Starfish » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:24 pm

GCD wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:43 pm
staythecourse wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:27 pm
FYI, the little research I have done has shown very little correlation to homework and scholastic performance especially early in life and more then hour per day. Heck, grades itself are not used in Finland (a perennial powerhouse for education) until late in their schooling.
I agree completely. Thankfully our kids are both in a HS where the principal bans homework over holiday breaks and about 1/3 of the teachers don't give homework at all.

staythecourse wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:27 pm
Bacchus01 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:44 am
U.S.-educated people are often NOT the smartest, but often ARE the best at solving problems.
I've been doing a bit of research of late on educational systems and the ONLY thing I know that U.S. kids lead in is overconfidence. Every study has said the same.
I know the US gets beat up a lot in international rankings at the HS level, but why then do our universities rank so well internationally? And why do so many foreigners want to study in the US? Why is the US such a home to innovation? I can't give you an answer, but it seems there is something more to education than simply memorizing facts and processes.

Like healthcare, education in US is taken over by private entities making a buck from something people would give a lot of money for.
The weak public schools seem to be a part of this. If the schools are weak so the kids don't lean anything then they HAVE TO go to college to acquire skills they should have at the end of HS. So even a secretary has to have a college degree ans some 50k in debt. Because public HS is free, college costs money.

They also hijacked the play and call it "activities". They cost money, obviously.

I see some people used Finland as an example. Finish education is not good. It performs well in tests and it generates decent average results but for kids over average is not competitive enough. I have several friends with kids in school in Finland.
I think one of the reasons the US tends to do poorly on international tests is we educate everyone. Many other countries don't put all their kids through a college prep curriculum and the ones that get that education are the better performers. That's gonna skew the results.
Americans love their legends about "other countries". I would be very interested of what "other countries" you refer too, but please no 3rld world examples.
If anything US is the only industrialized country where an abomination like homeschooling exists in such high numbers for normal kids.

retired recently
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by retired recently » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:29 pm

Just interested, why no reference to 3rd world countries? Why can they not be referenced in your opinion??

GCD
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by GCD » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:41 pm

EddyB wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:59 pm
In my state, Oregon, "gifted and talented" is identified as a need-based program, like learning disabilities. At least in our district, students identified as gifted are offered IEPs.
Interesting. I had never heard of that.

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by getthatmarshmallow » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:17 pm

Our kid's in kindergarten, and sounds similar academically. MiniMarshmallow is reading at somewhere around a third-grade level, and decided one day that he wanted to count to 1000 using all the class dominoes. Decided to teach his class (what he knows of) French. Socially popular, kind, compassionate. Glowing reports from the teacher.

MiniMarshmallow may turn out to be exceptionally bright, but all we can say for certain now is that he's precocious, especially with respect to language. Not terribly surprising: he has educated parents with the means and knowledge to nurture an academic interest in a young child.

Right now, we're thinking the gifted program in the public system will be the best fit for first grade. I'm posting to pass on anecdata from my friends -- charters and private elementary schools sometimes struggle with gifted kids, because there's honestly not much to do with them at that age, and they don't *have* to accommodate your kid. If you and the kid are unhappy, you'll leave, and so in some cases the incentive isn't there for them to adapt the curriculum to your child.

retired recently
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by retired recently » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:28 pm

There are charters specifically for gifted kids and those are much better than typical public schools mainly due to just grouping the kids so there is a strong cohort. Also, some public school systems will group their very top kids together and that can also be great.

In our state, the charter schools are typically better than most public schools. The IB school has a good reputation too.

For lack of a better measure, it is usually possible to see the avg ACT/SAT scores for schools in your area and that can be a decent indicator. Once you identify the top SAT high school then trace it back to determine where the top middle schoolers were coming from...

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by SchruteB&B » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:45 pm

GCD wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:43 pm


I think one of the reasons the US tends to do poorly on international tests is we educate everyone. Many other countries don't put all their kids through a college prep curriculum and the ones that get that education are the better performers. That's gonna skew the results.
This was always my impression too. That in countries in Europe, students are placed in fairly rigid tracks after elementary and the students given the chance to go on to college is limited. Here is an article on Germany I found with a quick google.

https://www.marketplace.org/2015/04/08/ ... eir-tracks

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by btenny » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:16 pm

OP. I think you need to home school your kid or go school shopping. We went school shopping when my youngest was 5 years old (December bday) way back when. We had thought she would go to the good public school near our home like her older brother. That school insisted she go to kindergarten at 5 starting that fall. But the teacher at her preschool said she needed to start first grade soon in order to not be bored. She said she was doing 2nd grade work and reading pretty good and so forth at 5. She was precocious and physically advanced so we went school shopping that summer.

We found several private primary schools for different type kids from fast learners to athletically gifted to Montessori to religion based. We ended up at a small private school run by the Episcopal church for fast learners and advanced kids. It focused on academics and went through 8th grade. She had to take a test to be admitted and they let her start first grade at 5.5 years old. The school did not do any religious training. It had a good deal of social diversity from all the smart foreign kids who went there. Most of the kids at the school were gifted and really smart. The parents were community leaders and doctors and lawyers and diplomats and so forth. It was expensive but not out of budget for a working engineer. That school was great and pushed the kids to learn. It was a good place for her and much better than the public school.

That school set her up for life. She is a Computer Scientist now.

So look around. You may find some good options. Good Luck.

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by FireProof » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:42 pm

Bacchus01 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:16 pm
FireProof wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:16 am
Bacchus01 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:44 am

That is not to say we shouldn't do better. I think we should. On average we are lagging, but I generally think that is not about accelerating the top end (it's capped) but pulling up the bottom end of the spectrum. I'm not sure we've ever consistently lead in the global education metrics, however.

The US also has nearly 20% of it's population that was born outside the US. We accept more immigrants than the next country by a factor of nearly 4X. That has a huge impact on overall scores as well.
Not really true. We have a smaller foreign-born population than countries with more successful school systems like Germany, Sweden, Canada, Australia - the latter two have MANY more immigrants and MUCH higher test scores.
Not true. The US has the highest numbers at over 45M.
Not proportionally, though.

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by retired recently » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:52 pm

FireProof wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:42 pm
Bacchus01 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:16 pm
FireProof wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:16 am
Bacchus01 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:44 am

That is not to say we shouldn't do better. I think we should. On average we are lagging, but I generally think that is not about accelerating the top end (it's capped) but pulling up the bottom end of the spectrum. I'm not sure we've ever consistently lead in the global education metrics, however.

The US also has nearly 20% of it's population that was born outside the US. We accept more immigrants than the next country by a factor of nearly 4X. That has a huge impact on overall scores as well.
Not really true. We have a smaller foreign-born population than countries with more successful school systems like Germany, Sweden, Canada, Australia - the latter two have MANY more immigrants and MUCH higher test scores.
Not true. The US has the highest numbers at over 45M.
Not proportionally, though.
I did not quite get the point about not accelerating the top end as it is capped? I think all pieces of the education system need to be accelerated. Those at the top are often not being challenged at all. The SAT etc that are used for college admissions are not challenging for those at the top and it does not differentiate the top scores it just compresses the top.

I also agree that many other countries do a better job and have similar high percentages of immigrants, although not sure about Sweden and Canada being fair to include. Canada has a large percentage of Asians does it not? Sweden's immigrants are a recent phenomenon are they not, a bit early to say how this will turn out?

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by Kennedy » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:00 pm

btenny wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:16 pm
OP. I think you need to home school your kid or go school shopping. We went school shopping when my youngest was 5 years old (December bday) way back when. We had thought she would go to the good public school near our home like her older brother. That school insisted she go to kindergarten at 5 starting that fall. But the teacher at her preschool said she needed to start first grade soon in order to not be bored. She said she was doing 2nd grade work and reading pretty good and so forth at 5. She was precocious and physically advanced so we went school shopping that summer.

We found several private primary schools for different type kids from fast learners to athletically gifted to Montessori to religion based. We ended up at a small private school run by the Episcopal church for fast learners and advanced kids. It focused on academics and went through 8th grade. She had to take a test to be admitted and they let her start first grade at 5.5 years old. The school did not do any religious training. It had a good deal of social diversity from all the smart foreign kids who went there. Most of the kids at the school were gifted and really smart. The parents were community leaders and doctors and lawyers and diplomats and so forth. It was expensive but not out of budget for a working engineer. That school was great and pushed the kids to learn. It was a good place for her and much better than the public school.

That school set her up for life. She is a Computer Scientist now.

So look around. You may find some good options. Good Luck.
How do you know that she wouldn't have been a computer scientist if she had stayed at the public school?

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by Starfish » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:03 pm

retired recently wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:29 pm
Just interested, why no reference to 3rd world countries? Why can they not be referenced in your opinion??
Not sure if serious, but yeah, comparing the one of richest country in the world not with its peers but with the most destitute only for the purpose of feeling superior is beyond ridiculous.

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by international001 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:20 pm

b0B wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:41 pm
SchruteB&B wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:45 pm
GCD wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:43 pm


I think one of the reasons the US tends to do poorly on international tests is we educate everyone. Many other countries don't put all their kids through a college prep curriculum and the ones that get that education are the better performers. That's gonna skew the results.
This was always my impression too. That in countries in Europe, students are placed in fairly rigid tracks after elementary and the students given the chance to go on to college is limited. Here is an article on Germany I found with a quick google.

https://www.marketplace.org/2015/04/08/ ... eir-tracks
Perhaps the German system is too rigid, but educating kids at their various different levels is the right way to do it. This quote from the linked article is disheartening:

"The irony is, the American comprehensive high school was partially a reaction to Germany’s tracking.
In the 1950s, former Harvard president James Bryant Conant served as an ambassador to Germany. He didn’t like the tracking system he saw there, so he came home and led a movement to reform American schools.
It took 30 years, but by the 1980s any type of tracking in the U.S. — even within high schools — was widely considered regressive and unjust."

This is probably the single major cause of damage to the American education system. Trying to force everyone to be at the same level means many or most students are held down to a much lower level (no student gets ahead). So much more education would happen if students could learn at their own level and proceed at their own pace. The economic way to do this is to group students together by ability level. Also smarter students will proceed faster, leading to a kind of widening achievement gaps, which should be embraced as a good thing.

The forced uniformity leads parents to desperately scramble to find suitable and safe education for their children, and while some schools are hugely better than others, the better options are often not accessible or realistic.

The public schools in our area are horrendous, and we have homeschooled for that reason, but it's not easy, and ultimately not what we want to do. We finally found a good safe charter for our younger two, while the older one went into a gifted program, which is inside a bad school for obvious reasons, but had to withdraw due to problems with students, teachers and administrators.

OP, you are finding that it can be really tough to find a good school, and often there can be zero acceptable options.
Are you sure.. I think it depends a lot on the country

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... attainment

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by retired recently » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:25 pm

Starfish wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:03 pm
retired recently wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:29 pm
Just interested, why no reference to 3rd world countries? Why can they not be referenced in your opinion??
Not sure if serious, but yeah, comparing the one of richest country in the world not with its peers but with the most destitute only for the purpose of feeling superior is beyond ridiculous.
I was serious and now understand your point of view. Actually I think many of the third world countries educate many of their kids better than the US does.

The US does very well at the very top in various academic competitions but these kids are typically first generation Americans (and we are very lucky to have them).

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by international001 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:29 pm

It seems many BHs have very gifted kids.. Math-Investment bios? Bragging bios?

Anecdotal cases aside, I'm surprised nobody looked at research between different types of education:

https://www.cep-dc.org/cfcontent_file.c ... 101007.pdf

It suggests there are not really significant differences

Some place else I read that private school brings a +$1000 annual salary difference, so not really important either

Save money on school and invest it for your child!

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by dknightd » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:30 pm

1/2 year in kindergarten. I would not worry about it yet. As long as they are happy going to school I'd smile and be happy
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by retired recently » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:38 pm

I think many parents want their kids to be challenged academically and with a cohort that is interesting for them. My son spent time at a charter school for sixth through eighth for academically gifted kids and he loved it. Now in a typical large public high school without any academic peers and he is not nearly as engaged and learns very little. He is years ahead of most of the kids there. He is a mathy kid but when we met his AP World History teacher he said that he is just sorry that he cannot teach him alone as he is way above everyone else in the class.

It is not always just about money. We have spent a small fortune on summer camps and supplementing various courses. No idea how much money he will make as an adult but that is not really the issue at this stage. Luckily he is athletic, so he fits in pretty well at the school.

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by likegarden » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:43 pm

I read the attachment a poster provided showing education levels in many countries. I went to school in Germany in 1950s to 1965 and liked the tracked system they still have over there. In 1965 I received the equivalent of a MSME in Germany. Kids seem to be able to learn better in their track school than here where in many classes all the kids study, holding back very good performers. Discipline seems to better in higher tracks than here. Our son graduated here in the US with a BSME, and our grandson is also very good in math and science and goes to all honor classes. Tracking does not have to be rigid. Actually I finished in Germany in grade 10 in the middle track (due to financial reasons then), then transferred successfully to the upper track.

College then costs my parents and me nothing over there in Germany, received even living expenses. All universities in Germany are public. Admission to a college is based on grades, not based mostly on money as here. Tuition to all German universities is free.
Last edited by likegarden on Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by retired recently » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:45 pm

international001 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:29 pm
It seems many BHs have very gifted kids.. Math-Investment bios? Bragging bios?

Anecdotal cases aside, I'm surprised nobody looked at research between different types of education:

https://www.cep-dc.org/cfcontent_file.c ... 101007.pdf

It suggests there are not really significant differences

Some place else I read that private school brings a +$1000 annual salary difference, so not really important either

Save money on school and invest it for your child!
We looked at private schools for our son and I would agree with you, not really worth the cost and they did not look much better. However, I imagine if you looked at specific private schools, like Andover, Exeter, etc plus some of the state specialty STEM schools like TJ, NJSSM, NCSSM, the STEM schools in NYC, etc their graduates probably do very well? Not sure if you know where that type of study might be found? It would be interesting to see.

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by Nowizard » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:05 pm

If your child has later birthdate, say in February, he may be six months older than many Kg. students. If he is six months advanced, he may be a full year beyond others. At age five, relatively small differences in eventual mental age is magnified. He sounds above average and, as others have mentioned, socialization is very important at this age. Give him additional challenges at home if he is doing well socially. If you think he is truly advanced to a significant level, ask his teacher. Public schools are obligated to evaluate private and church-related school children upon request if they have a psychological services or special education division, though they may not do it as quickly as with their public school referrals.

Tim

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by leeks » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:19 pm

EddyB wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:59 pm
In my state, Oregon, "gifted and talented" is identified as a need-based program, like learning disabilities. At least in our district, students identified as gifted are offered IEPs.
It is not like this in NY. IEP is only for some kind of disability. Of course some IEP students also qualify as "gifted."

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by health teacher » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:04 pm

Nowizard wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:05 pm
Public schools are obligated to evaluate private and church-related school children upon request if they have a psychological services or special education division, though they may not do it as quickly as with their public school referrals.

Tim
Not completely true. There has to be enough evidence to do the evaluation as determined by the public school district. The private school should know what is deemed necessary by the public school district in which the student resides. It requires months of convincing data to warrant an eval, so it's not like any parent, private or public, can force a district to conduct a formal evaluation. Ducks must be in a row.


To the few discussing IEPs for gifted students:

According to IDEA, there are 13 categories which qualify a student for an IEP and being gifted is NOT one of them. Every state is different, and some states may have a plan similar to an IEP (written documentation, measurable goals, team meetings, individualized instructions), but it is not an IEP as IDEA defines it. It might be an individualized education plan, but not an actual IEP according to IDEA if that makes sense. Think of the NFL and think of the XFL or USFL which is technically a national football league. With that said, if a parent was desperate to get an IEP, the OHI classification is kind of the melting pot so to speak so a gifted student could probably classify as OHI with the help of a doctor's ADHD diagnosis. The IEP would need to focus on OHI, but parents could argue lack of interest triggers ADHD, and voila, the IEP is essentially driven gifted needs.

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by opus360 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:38 pm

Wow, I am very pleasantly surprised by the number and quality of responses here. I have been reading the postings throughout the day, but just now got a chance to reply. Lots for us to digest.

We have been doing a lot of the suggestions - reading to him (wish I can do it more), taking him to museums, educational summer camps. Wife volunteers at his school as well, like many parents of Catholic schools do.

The suggestions can be grouped into four categories. From no change to most significant change order:

1) Just keep him where he is (current school) since he seems to fit in well and seems happy. Continue to read to him. We also give him lots of free unstructured time.

2) Try the public school - academically it is likely stronger due to availability of resources. (Someone posted a study showing no advantage to private school except two categories, which don't apply to us.) Also, the funds paid for private school can be directed towards other instructive activities.

3) Moved to another school district.

4) Home school him.

We are not ready to make dramatic moves (choices 3 and 4). As many said, he is still only half a year into school and is doing good there. We'll have another talk with the teacher to see what her views are. We are considering the other two: the no change and public school.

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by GCD » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:58 pm

health teacher wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:04 pm
With that said, if a parent was desperate to get an IEP, the OHI classification is kind of the melting pot so to speak so a gifted student could probably classify as OHI with the help of a doctor's ADHD diagnosis. The IEP would need to focus on OHI, but parents could argue lack of interest triggers ADHD, and voila, the IEP is essentially driven gifted needs.
I suspect most parents would find the results of this disappointing. My experience with IEPs (admittedly a sample of one confined to one state) is that the IEP is designed to give the kid accommodations that enable him to get the typical education the school provides to other kids. So extra time, individual instructions, etc. are all ways to give a kid with a Learning Disability the opportunity to perform. The school is under no obligation to provide the child with a superior education. So the accommodations are used to provide the kid some extra assistance in an ordinary class. If the school offers gifted, honors, AP classes the IEP also applies to those. However, the school doesn't have to invent a gifted curriculum to comply with the IEP.

I'll spare everyone a debate on the overdiagnosis of ADHD, how ADHD works, etc. since it isn't germane to the OP.

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by EddyB » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:14 pm

health teacher wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:04 pm
Nowizard wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:05 pm
Public schools are obligated to evaluate private and church-related school children upon request if they have a psychological services or special education division, though they may not do it as quickly as with their public school referrals.

Tim
Not completely true. There has to be enough evidence to do the evaluation as determined by the public school district. The private school should know what is deemed necessary by the public school district in which the student resides. It requires months of convincing data to warrant an eval, so it's not like any parent, private or public, can force a district to conduct a formal evaluation. Ducks must be in a row.


To the few discussing IEPs for gifted students:

According to IDEA, there are 13 categories which qualify a student for an IEP and being gifted is NOT one of them. Every state is different, and some states may have a plan similar to an IEP (written documentation, measurable goals, team meetings, individualized instructions), but it is not an IEP as IDEA defines it. It might be an individualized education plan, but not an actual IEP according to IDEA if that makes sense. Think of the NFL and think of the XFL or USFL which is technically a national football league. With that said, if a parent was desperate to get an IEP, the OHI classification is kind of the melting pot so to speak so a gifted student could probably classify as OHI with the help of a doctor's ADHD diagnosis. The IEP would need to focus on OHI, but parents could argue lack of interest triggers ADHD, and voila, the IEP is essentially driven gifted needs.
I don’t have any idea about other states, and I know it’s not the main point here, but I didn’t mention the IDEA and I’m pretty sure the IDEA came about after laws substantially similar to the current Oregon laws were in place, so it’s more like if the USFL had tried to tell the NFL it wasn’t playing football....

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by srt7 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:33 pm

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:57 pm
Public school. Try it, see how it works out.
+1
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by health teacher » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:42 pm

GCD wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:58 pm

I suspect most parents would find the results of this disappointing. My experience with IEPs (admittedly a sample of one confined to one state) is that the IEP is designed to give the kid accommodations that enable him to get the typical education the school provides to other kids. So extra time, individual instructions, etc. are all ways to give a kid with a Learning Disability the opportunity to perform. The school is under no obligation to provide the child with a superior education. So the accommodations are used to provide the kid some extra assistance in an ordinary class. If the school offers gifted, honors, AP classes the IEP also applies to those. However, the school doesn't have to invent a gifted curriculum to comply with the IEP.
There are accommodations and there are modifications noted in IEPs. Accommodations usually provide assistance to promote learning and are most common for SLD classification, but as I mentioned there are 13 IEP classifications which all require different considerations when implementing IEPs. This is where modifications come into play. Typically modifications are used to reduce what a student is required to learn, but that's not always the case. Now I don't see a benefit in this, but a parent who really knows his or her stuff and puts pressure on the school can push for curriculum to be modified to promote the least restrictive environment for his/her child. An example would be requiring extra enrichment activities for a student to keep him or her on task and prevent boredom and apathy towards school work in general. The good old American Proverb "The squeaky wheel gets the grease".

With all this said, I agree with you. Most parents will find this cumbersome route disappointing and as an educator it's easy to become numb to this parental pressure and lose some compassion for the child. Neither the parents, students or teacher truly benefit from this.

Back to the OP, you can make this as complex as you'd like, but this is a marathon, not a sprint. I wouldn't put all your focus on the 4 minute mile. Whatever decision you make will be best and never forget you are the biggest influence on your child. The way you talk about school, his teachers, admin, private school, public school etc. all will shape his beliefs and attitudes towards school. Cultivate optimism and let him enjoy school whether it's public or private. You are already so far ahead of the game by simply valuing education.

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by Northern Flicker » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:52 pm

If you teach your child material 1-2 grades ahead of their grade level wouldn’t the expected outcome be that they are doing topics in school at a lower level than what you are teaching them at home?

Instead of trying to accelerate the scheduled academic curriculum at home, maybe augment it with things not offered consistently in schools like music, art, and foreign language study? In other countries a second language is started at very young age when a child’s brain soaks up language like a sponge.
Last edited by Northern Flicker on Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by leeks » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:58 pm

opus360 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:38 pm
Wow, I am very pleasantly surprised by the number and quality of responses here. I have been reading the postings throughout the day, but just now got a chance to reply. Lots for us to digest.

We have been doing a lot of the suggestions - reading to him (wish I can do it more), taking him to museums, educational summer camps. Wife volunteers at his school as well, like many parents of Catholic schools do.

The suggestions can be grouped into four categories. From no change to most significant change order:

1) Just keep him where he is (current school) since he seems to fit in well and seems happy. Continue to read to him. We also give him lots of free unstructured time.

2) Try the public school - academically it is likely stronger due to availability of resources. (Someone posted a study showing no advantage to private school except two categories, which don't apply to us.) Also, the funds paid for private school can be directed towards other instructive activities.

3) Moved to another school district.

4) Home school him.

We are not ready to make dramatic moves (choices 3 and 4). As many said, he is still only half a year into school and is doing good there. We'll have another talk with the teacher to see what her views are. We are considering the other two: the no change and public school.
I would assume most of us recommending public school meant starting in the next school year. I would not pull him out of a school mid-year if he seems happy there.

One reason to stick with the Catholic school (not yet discussed I think) would be if you and your wife have a strong community of friends/neighbors whose children also attend the school. If the school (and associated church) is an important component of your family's social and/or spiritual life, it might be worth it to try it for a few more years at least. You could keep up the involvement with the school and advocate for any improvements you think would benefit your son. But if not, I'd be signing up for public first grade.

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by health teacher » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:16 pm

EddyB wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:14 pm

I don’t have any idea about other states, and I know it’s not the main point here, but I didn’t mention the IDEA and I’m pretty sure the IDEA came about after laws substantially similar to the current Oregon laws were in place, so it’s more like if the USFL had tried to tell the NFL it wasn’t playing football....
My response was more for clarification and not really directed at anyone specific as a fault-finder.

I agree with you and your understanding of gifted IEP vs IDEA IEP. Gifted IEP funding/mandates all depends on the state while IEP for learning disabilities funding/mandates has federal involvement. Not all states are required to create plans for gifted students, but all states are required to provide IEPs to students with disabilities who qualify according to IDEA.

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by WaffleCone » Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:23 am

I have 4 kids in Catholic elementary school. The teacher may only measure them for counting 1-10 but they're probably singing songs where they count to 100, by 10's, 2's, etc. Like others have said, PK and K are more of a structured social space preparing them with the basics of how to be successful in the classroom-- organizing assignments, working in groups, coloring, forming letters, talking in front of the class, self-confidence, etc. not so much learning core subjects. But they are still thrown some challenging work without even knowing it. For example, my 5-year old was doing "picture math" that was basically simple algebra "solving for X'. I was impressed.

Your best resources are the other parents. There should be plenty of families with kids in different grades. Where do their priorities seem to be? Academics? Religion? Sports? Is the enrollment barely keeping it alive, or is it growing with a strong parent/alumni base?

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Re: Kid schooling - not learning much academically. Looking for suggestions.

Post by forgeblast » Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:29 am

GCD wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:32 pm
zeeke42 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:53 am
OnTrack2020 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:39 am
An IEP is a document which lays out a plan for students with disabilities to help them succeed while in public school. We have/had 3 children with IEPs.

You could always give public school a try. I think they would offer more in the way of gifted programs. I've seen bright 5-year-olds become very average by the time high school graduation rolls around. And, let's face it, there are a lot of people who think their child is smart when they are younger. You really will know more regarding academic giftedness once the child is in high school.
IEPs aren't just for students with disabilities. IEPs are how kids get placed in gifted programs too.
IEPs for gifted? Are you sure? My understanding is an IEP or 504 can be instituted if the kid has learning disabilities. Now giftedness and LD are certainly simultaneously possible and often are. But the IEP isn't to address the gifted needs. If you are gifted and don't have a LD I doubt you are going to get an IEP. It might just work out that some of the accommodations put in place to address the LD also simultaneously address gifted needs, but the documented purpose and justification for the IEP will be the LD.

They are Giep's they spell out what the student is gifted in. Sometimes there is Masking that can happen in Giftedness where there may be a bit of a deficiency in one area but the giftedness hides it. When they are being tested for giftedness this can be found. Once a student qualifies for a GIEP it can not be taken away from them. If they want to utilize it (the things outlined in the GIEP) thats up to the parents.

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