A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

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nisiprius
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A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by nisiprius » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:40 pm

This is strictly a question of whether anybody is clever enough to concoct some explanation, however strained, of how this could possibly be truthful.

Charmin claims that its "super mega rolls" are equivalent to "6 rolls in 1."

Image

They also state that the four-roll package it contains "426 2-ply sheets per roll," that the dimensions of a sheet are 3.72" long x 4.27" wide, and contains a total of 187 square feet. Since 426 x 3.72 x 4.27 / 144 = 47, I deduce that the 187 square feet is the grand total of all four rolls in the package.

To me, a "regular roll" of 2-ply toilet paper is 500 two-ply sheets. By that standard, a "super mega roll" is actually less than one regular rolls.

Of course, they say the comparison is to a Charmin regular roll. This would imply that a Charmin regular roll has 426/6 = 71 sheets, or 3.72" x 71 / 12 = 22 linear feet of paper. Since a super mega rolls measures about 5.375" in diameter, on a core of 1.625" in diameter, by using a little high-school algebra I find...

...that a "regular roll" of Charmin would be 3.16" in diameter and would have a total thickness of only 0.76" of paper around the core. Toilet paper rolls used to be smaller in diameter than they are now, but I can't remember ever seeing one that small, can you?

The so-called "regular rolls" shown in their picture have much more paper than that. If we assume the core is 1.625" in diameter, measuring the picture and calculating proportions, they have 1.083" of paper wound around the core, which works out to 142 sheets, meaning that the "super mega roll" would be only 3 times the size of a "regular roll," not six.

Of course, I can't find any evidence that Charmin actually sells anything called a "regular roll," can you?

Is that the trick?

Is it not actually sold? Is there one sole solitary single "regular roll" kept at Procter & Gamble... in a sealed cube filled with dry nitrogen under controlled temperature... with no function except to be a standard of measuring 1/6th the size of a "super mega rolls?"
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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 regular rolls: is this possible?

Post by Angst » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:51 pm

nisiprius wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:40 pm
This is strictly a question of whether anybody is clever enough to concoct some explanation, however strained... [Snip...]
The only time I strain at all over TP is when... well, I'm not gonna go there. But I got to love you Nisi. Someone needs to get these questions answered, and it all sounds kinda fishy to me too. Wait, would that be a mixed metaphor?

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by Kenkat » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:54 pm

Well, they don’t fit on the holder and still spin freely, so that’s a deal-breaker for me. I think we buy what is called the double rolls.

I think you can still get single rolls at mid-priced hotel chains. They are made of sandpaper as best I can tell.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by madbrain » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:55 pm

All these imperial units make my head hurt. Just give me the weight of each roll in grams to compare them. Yes, I know, that includes the weight of the core. But that should be a much better comparison than the area of the toilet paper, IMO. If the paper is too thin, I'll just end up using more sheets. So weight is really what matters more to me.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by sawhorse » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:56 pm

Toilet paper rolls have been shrinking. These days the "double" rolls are less than the single rolls a few decades ago.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by patrick » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:08 pm

I'm not sure what counts as regular but I think 500 two-ply sheets is more than regular. The generic toilet paper from Dollar Tree has only 275 two-ply sheets on each roll, so that's what I'd consider as regular -- of course in that case I can buy four of them for a dollar!

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by Nestegg_User » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:13 pm

well, Nisi, you could go over to Spring Grove and Beech (not far off I-75) and ask them..and maybe even see the original bar of ivory and it’s certificate of analysis ( you know, the “99 44/100’s”) :wink: {but unless you work there or are a contractor for their business, it’s not likely now, although decades ago you could get in to parts of the complex}

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by segfault » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:24 pm

I'm not sure what constitutes a regular roll, but I'm extremely annoyed that the width of pretty much all brands of TP decreased during the 2008 recession. They used to be around 4.5" wide and now all of them seem to be 4".

I have the newer "hook" style TP holder and have never had an issue using the thicker rolls. I like not having to change them out as often, but am still conscious of price. Planning to try Aldi's TP soon, since it appears to be a better value.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by Thegame14 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:27 pm

Love this!!!! I just assume it is marketing crap I look at the price per quantity to compare. I try to get double rolls for about 50 cents a piece... Mostly get stop and shop brand but get charmin when they are on sale.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by frugalmama » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:31 pm

I think their explanation is deceiving. No matter what, we use POM at Sam's. While it definitely is closer to sandpaper than some other brands, it seems to be the most economical and I prefer thinner since the kids stick gobs and gobs down the toilet anyway....it is easier to unclog.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by Jags4186 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:38 pm

When was the last time you truly bought a “regular” roll of TP? You’re always buying “big, double, super, mega, ultra, etc.” I will tell you a supermarket generally doesn’t sell regular size. You get regular size at the bodega at 11pm at night in an emergency—4 rolls for $9.99. And I’ll tell you...a “regular” roll might last 3-4 “sessions”, if you catch my drift.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by Zott » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:38 pm

As the family economist and main shopping errand boy, I have been studying this issue for many years, and have concluded that the toilet paper roll size index has suffered serious deflation over the years. Not a problem for marketers since no one has ever defined "regular" (cough, cough).

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by gwrvmd » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:40 pm

nisiprius..............I think you have too much time on your hands. Have you tried a hobby? How long have you had this fixation on Toilet Paper?............Maybe you shouldn't have retired .........Gordon
Disciple of John Neff

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by samsdad » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:47 pm

is this possible?
My response: “How much does it matter, considering scatter?”

Indeed.

You ain’t gonna do one of those chart thingys for this are you?

Image

So instead of looking a gift horse in the mouth and questioning the existence of these things, just be glad the laws of physics include the principles of friction or else (1) we’d all be real tired and (2) none of us would have enough “super mega rolls” and such.

In other science news, physicists think they’ve figured out the “dark matter” problem. It turns out it’s a “dark fluid” problem according to Newsweek, for which the necessity of the creation of “super mega rolls” was of course already predicted by Einstein long ago.

“Bottom” line, as it were, you’ll be fine with either the regular or super mega. Just pick one for your ass(et) allocation, hold it till you’re ready for the decumulaton phase, and “stay the course.”
Last edited by samsdad on Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by Beensabu » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:50 pm

It's marketing whatchamacallit. Gotta love it. And it's not just "super mega double", it's "ultra strong" too... If Wile E. Coyote stretched it out over his head, that anvil would bounce right off and crush him ambling cockily down the road 10 feet later.

I just get the "bunny" toilet paper (Softly - 4"x4", 242 two-ply sheets per roll, 322.6 sq ft - had to go check to figure the brand out, let alone the specs) from the grocery store. 12 "double" rolls for $5.99. If you want your super softness, you can get the "duck" one instead. I like the bunny. But it's not 24 rolls. It's 12 rolls. Still $0.50 per roll.
nisiprisius wrote:Is there one sole solitary single "regular roll" kept at Procter & Gamble... in a sealed cube filled with dry nitrogen under controlled temperature... with no function except to be a standard of measuring 1/6th the size of a "super mega rolls?"
Someone has this in their private collection of random weirdness, and it is worth $100 million. Or $0.30.
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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by mariezzz » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:53 pm

I really hate the games toilet paper manufacturers play! The central contention of Nisipirius's post is absolutely right.

To make your decision: Calculate overall square footage in a package; factor in the ply-factor plus any knowledge you have about other characteristics, such as 'weaker' vs 'stronger, 'made from recycled paper', 'unbleached', plus your knowledge about the corporation's practices and how they jive with your ethical values. Then buy a bidet or convert your toilet - this helps conserve paper.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by Nestegg_User » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:53 pm

gwrvmd wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:40 pm
nisiprius..............I think you have too much time on your hands. Have you tried a hobby? How long have you had this fixation on Toilet Paper?............Maybe you shouldn't have retired .........Gordon
maybe he was part of the group that helped define the “squeezability” of the original ? (remember those commercials?... or am I dating myself again?)


and those still w@rking wonder what we retirees do all day :oops:

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by Calli114 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:01 pm

As an aside but financially related, I once read a book by someone who was an advocate of living below your means and was going to finance his and his wife's retirement with Treasuries. The drop in interest rates hit them hard.
He had allotted them 2 squares of TP per bathroom trip. Now that would be a long retirement, figuratively if not literally speaking.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by adamthesmythe » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:02 pm

Dunno. All I know is there are too many choices. And too many choices of toothpaste, and orange juice, and every other damn thing.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by cheese_breath » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:33 pm

I wonder if anyone has patented the toilet paper holder for those rolls yet.
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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by pizza8822 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:00 am

This topic reminds me of a review I added to Target.com for Bounty Paper towels. I wrote how terrible it was that Bounty decreased their roll sizes by 15-percent while the package looked identical (except sheet count) and the price stayed exactly the same. I thought consumers should be made aware of the deception and look at other brands to compare. Target did not post the review - perhaps all the featured P&G paid placements are hurting Target's integrity.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by MJW » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:43 am

sawhorse wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:56 pm
Toilet paper rolls have been shrinking. These days the "double" rolls are less than the single rolls a few decades ago.
Just like bond yields, the golden days of toilet paper are...um, behind us.

Real bogleheads use recycled single-ply. It's the Corolla/Timex of toilet paper.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by criticalmass » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:46 am

Kenkat wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:54 pm
Well, they don’t fit on the holder and still spin freely, so that’s a deal-breaker for me. I think we buy what is called the double rolls.

I think you can still get single rolls at mid-priced hotel chains. They are made of sandpaper as best I can tell.
Charmin did or will send free adapters to allow larger rolls in holders.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by OnTrack » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:57 am

Some history of the size of toilet paper rolls:
https://www.efoodsdirect.com/blog/get-i ... appearing/

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by stlutz » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:04 am

I do know when a hotel cheaps out on toilet paper I use about 6 times as much as I do at home...

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by ReadyOrNot » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:16 am

I was actually looking for the best toilet paper compromise available since getting irritated by flimsy paper not tearing at perforations. The cheapest Wal-mart 2-ply rolls have 150 sheets per roll. There are rolls available with 1000 sheets per roll. That could legitimately be called 6x.
"Double" rolls seem common, running between 240 - 300 sheets. 4"x4" seems standard now, but some have 1 dimension smaller than 4". I am pretty sure 4.5"x4.5" was once the usual size, and remember noticing when 1 dimension, then another, shrank to 4.25" or 4.2".

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by DarthSage » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:00 am

When you've finished resolving this dilemma, perhaps you can tackle the laundry detergent one--you know, how much detergent do you really need, and can you get 56/108/44 loads out of a container.

Seriously, stuff like this drives my logical mind crazy.

On the toilet paper one, I've just given up. I find a brand that I like, and just keep getting it. The toilet paper aisle can drive someone mad.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by michaeljc70 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:58 am

This is a marketing gimmick. In fact, it is really hard to determine if you are getting a good value on tp or paper towels. Some say look at sq ft in the pack. That doesn't really work since that doesn't take into account thickness. You really should go by weight, which I have never seen listed on the packaging. I've thought about bringing a handheld luggage scale to the store, but didn't want to be institutionalized :shock: .

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by cheese_breath » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:03 am

michaeljc70 wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:58 am
This is a marketing gimmick. In fact, it is really hard to determine if you are getting a good value on tp or paper towels. Some say look at sq ft in the pack. That doesn't really work since that doesn't take into account thickness. You really should go by weight, which I have never seen listed on the packaging. I've thought about bringing a handheld luggage scale to the store, but didn't want to be institutionalized :shock: .
Does your store still have scales in the produce department? :P
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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by AlphaLess » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:08 am

It must be that if you are a very large bear (such as those in Charmin commercials), you waste a lot of paper trying to use the regular roll.

Thus, the ultra mega super roll is more efficient, and they must have done a controlled experiment to demonstrate that the mega super ultra roll is worth 6x of the regular plain unworthy roll.
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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by cheese_breath » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:11 am

The regular size roll if bearly enough for one of those guys.
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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by goingup » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:17 am

sawhorse wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:56 pm
Toilet paper rolls have been shrinking. These days the "double" rolls are less than the single rolls a few decades ago.
Have you noticed the sheets aren't as wide either. The change is almost imperceptible. Manufacturers are getting so clever at giving us less.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by JoMoney » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:33 am

So after browsing/shopping online, I see that a "Charmin Super Mega Roll" = 6 regular rolls*
And a "Charmin Mega Roll" = 4 regular rolls*
And a "Charmin Basic Double Roll" = 2 regular rolls*
And a "Charmin Essentials Giant Roll" = 2 regular rolls*
(*Based on number of sheets in Charmin Regular Roll bath tissue)

But I can't find any "Charmin Regular Roll" tissues for sale... :confused
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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by Jags4186 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:36 am

A Charmin regular roll:

Image

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JoMoney
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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by JoMoney » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:46 am

Here we go, this is the closest to a "Charmin Regular Roll" I kind find for sale:
https://www.supplytime.com/Products/Cha ... 015PK.aspx
71 sheets per roll :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by ddurrett896 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:53 am

pizza8822 wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:00 am
This topic reminds me of a review I added to Target.com for Bounty Paper towels. I wrote how terrible it was that Bounty decreased their roll sizes by 15-percent while the package looked identical (except sheet count) and the price stayed exactly the same. I thought consumers should be made aware of the deception and look at other brands to compare. Target did not post the review - perhaps all the featured P&G paid placements are hurting Target's integrity.
There are two ways manufactures deal with increased production cost...

1) decrease package size - no change to retail price
2) no change to package size - increase retail price

Pick your poison

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by shunkman » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:12 am

So many consumer products and grocery items are shrinking in size. I find this very disappointing. Grocery store (including Aldi) Orange juice recently decreased again to 52 ounces. We buy the Kirkland (Costco) brand of TP and we trust Costco enough to ensure that we are getting a good value.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by hudson » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:24 am

DarthSage wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:00 am
On the toilet paper one, I've just given up. I find a brand that I like, and just keep getting it. The toilet paper aisle can drive someone mad.
Me too...
For paper towels, I just buy the biggest rolls of the store brand that I can find.
For TP, I just get Quilted Northern Ultra Plush...Mega 48...1 roll =4...12 rolls to the package. I've given up on price comparisons; I've tried all the brands. This is the one that works for me. I'll comparison shop on the other aisles.
I'll have to turn in my "This is the frugal thing that I've done today" membership card.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by missingdonut » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:58 am

When I shop for toilet paper, I use the calculator on my cell phone and compare price divided by square feet (or square meters). I'm may be slightly brand loyal

I have found that the confusing marketing allows the grocery stores to have strange pricing -- it's not always cheaper buying in bulk.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by sport » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:50 pm

shunkman wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:12 am
So many consumer products and grocery items are shrinking in size. I find this very disappointing. Grocery store (including Aldi) Orange juice recently decreased again to 52 ounces. We buy the Kirkland (Costco) brand of TP and we trust Costco enough to ensure that we are getting a good value.
Costco has two different quality TP products. There is the regular one in a blue package and the Ultra Soft product in a purple package. My local store only stocks the blue package. However, the Ultra Soft is available at Costco.com. It is an excellent product, much nicer (and more expensive) than the other one.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by FlyAF » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:02 pm

People still use toilet paper? My keister deserves so much better.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by JoMoney » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:07 pm

FlyAF wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:02 pm
People still use toilet paper? My keister deserves so much better.
Need to learn the "Three Seashells" technique from Demolition Man
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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by praxis » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:27 pm

missingdonut wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:58 am
When I shop for toilet paper, I use the calculator on my cell phone and compare price divided by square feet (or square meters). I'm may be slightly brand loyal

I have found that the confusing marketing allows the grocery stores to have strange pricing -- it's not always cheaper buying in bulk.
We joined Sam's and later, Costco and after spending the time to calculate price/square foot in both stores and then compare them to Walmart and grocery store sale prices, I found that buying Walmart Great Value brand in medium size packages was cheapest of all. I do not buy single ply.

As quantity of paper used per visit is a secret kept by the visitor, I can't find the answer to my question of how a full roll at our house can disappear so fast.

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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by cheese_breath » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:34 pm

Do you have a cat? Look in the litter box.
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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by StevieG72 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:58 pm

frugalmama wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:31 pm
I think their explanation is deceiving. No matter what, we use POM at Sam's. While it definitely is closer to sandpaper than some other brands, it seems to be the most economical and I prefer thinner since the kids stick gobs and gobs down the toilet anyway....it is easier to unclog.
I use POM for home and business. POM was great when I had old toilets, it did not clog them up like the premium brands.
Now that I have new toilets, I still use POM. It comes in a 45 roll case which lasts good while at home.
Fools think their own way is right, but the wise listen to others.

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nisiprius
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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by nisiprius » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:23 pm

OnTrack wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:57 am
Some history of the size of toilet paper rolls:
https://www.efoodsdirect.com/blog/get-i ... appearing/
Thank you... particularly for confirming the 500-sheets-of-two-ply standard: "circa 1970, the typical toilet paper roll contained 500 good-sized sheets."
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Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by Pigeye Brewster » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:27 pm

Bogleheads is great. It was here that I learned about the Mega Backdoor Roth. And now I've learned about the Mega Backdoor Roll.

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ElJay
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:08 pm

Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by ElJay » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:01 pm

Charmin is the only toilet paper that I've needed professional help to clear from clogging the pipes.

Jags4186
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Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:12 pm

Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by Jags4186 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:29 pm

JoMoney wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:07 pm
FlyAF wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:02 pm
People still use toilet paper? My keister deserves so much better.
Need to learn the "Three Seashells" technique from Demolition Man
Thank you. I make this joke all the time and no one knows what the heck I’m talking about!!!

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cheese_breath
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Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:08 pm

Re: A "super mega roll" of toilet paper = 6 "regular rolls:" is this possible?

Post by cheese_breath » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:32 pm

Jags4186 wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:29 pm
JoMoney wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:07 pm
FlyAF wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:02 pm
People still use toilet paper? My keister deserves so much better.
Need to learn the "Three Seashells" technique from Demolition Man
Thank you. I make this joke all the time and no one knows what the heck I’m talking about!!!
Use the swearing tickets instead. The low priced sea shells could contain clams.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

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