Electric bill with LED

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arf30
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by arf30 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:08 am

We gradually migrated over to LED bulbs as the old ones burned out, no difference in the electric bill that I can tell.

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RickBoglehead
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by RickBoglehead » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:12 am

JoMoney wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:01 am
Lighting makes up a negligible part of my electric usage. The big ones are air conditioning and the refrigerator. For me, the advantage of the new bulbs is they last practically forever and rarely need to be replaced.
This. Simply look at your electric bill. How many kWh did you use? I used 758. That's 758,000 watts. Divide by 30 days and 24 hours and that's 1,052 watts per hour on average.

If switch to CFL, that drops to maybe 28 watts for the equivalent light co. That's a 72% reduction compared to the original lightbulb.
If I switch to LED, it's around 14.5 watts. That's a 48% reduction, but the cost is already so low that it's less noticeable than the 72% prior reduction. And it's a 85.5% reduction compared to that original bulb.

And, as noted, compared to appliances and furnaces, it's barely noticeable. And the cost to go from CFL to LED is noticeable.

But that doesn't mean it's not good to save energy.
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Bogle7
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Bogle7 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:38 am

RickBoglehead wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:12 am
And the cost to go from CFL to LED is noticeable.
Home Depot is selling "60 watt" LED bulbs for 12¢ less than CFLs.

edge
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by edge » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:09 pm

I've found that the old rule that LEDs are more expensive than CFLs has ceased to be true, for some time.

Bogle7 wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:38 am
RickBoglehead wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:12 am
And the cost to go from CFL to LED is noticeable.
Home Depot is selling "60 watt" LED bulbs for 12¢ less than CFLs.

SpaghettiMonster
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by SpaghettiMonster » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:40 pm

I don't know how much of a drop in our electric bill I can attribute to LEDs. However, I'm sure that a portion of it was from decreasing our AC use. Have ceilings dotted with incandescent lights really warms the room, especially in a Southwestern summer. The drop in heat production was noticeable and I would think that our AC did not have to work as hard to cool the rooms.

Pigeon
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Pigeon » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:42 pm

All these posts about men turning off all the lights all the time reminds me of my late father-in-law. We used to call him The Prince of Darkness.

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JoMoney
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by JoMoney » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:49 pm

edge wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:09 pm
I've found that the old rule that LEDs are more expensive than CFLs has ceased to be true, for some time.

Bogle7 wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:38 am
RickBoglehead wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:12 am
And the cost to go from CFL to LED is noticeable.
Home Depot is selling "60 watt" LED bulbs for 12¢ less than CFLs.
I've gotten some at dollar/99cent store(s)
https://www.dollartree.com/bulk/Led-Bulbs
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J G Bankerton
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by J G Bankerton » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:53 pm

JoMoney wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:49 pm
edge wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:09 pm
I've found that the old rule that LEDs are more expensive than CFLs has ceased to be true, for some time.

Bogle7 wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:38 am
RickBoglehead wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:12 am
And the cost to go from CFL to LED is noticeable.
Home Depot is selling "60 watt" LED bulbs for 12¢ less than CFLs.
I've gotten some at dollar/99cent store(s)
https://www.dollartree.com/bulk/Led-Bulbs
I think they were talking advantage of the situation when LEDs for lighting first came out. 1000% markup.

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Leif
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Leif » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:57 pm

AC in the summer is my biggest electric bill expense. I noticed a decrease in my bill with going to double pane windows. I replaced my most heavy used lights with LEDs (kitchen/dinning area). Didn't notice much of a change. All depends on your usage.

I was surprised to see, in my local Home Depot, they now have LEDs as replacements for the long tube florescence bulbs. But, they told me it will not work with all types of ballast.
Last edited by Leif on Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mike83
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Mike83 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:15 pm

Residential lighting is estimated to represent 17% of a typical residential bill (gubbermint data). If you switch from all convention bulbs to all LED, that 17% number would drop to 4%. Of course 'typical residential bill' will have wide variance and YMMV, but this should give you a good sense of the possibilities.

Furthermore, if you are in hot climate (predominately air conditioned) LED generates less heat.

But, in a cold climate, incandescent lights reduce heating load.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by iamlucky13 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:50 pm

livesoft wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:49 am
^I think this thread showed that you would probably not save $50 over the next year.

I'm sitting here eating breakfast without a single light on in the house. Sunlight coming through the windows are enough for everything.

I wonder if $50 would buy a headlamp (LED of course) and a small solar panel to keep it charged? Then unscrew all the light bulbs in the house. How much of the electricity bill would that save?
The solar panel is a separate consideration - source of your energy vs. how much energy you use.

The headlamp is analogous to the idea of using an electric blanket to stay comfortable in rooms where you're usually sitting, and turning the heat down: save energy by focusing its use on where it's actually needed. It's not convenient, but it does reduce energy "wasted" on heating your walls.

For lighting, 100 lumens per square meter can be ample in non-task areas (eg, not the kitchen or bathroom). You need about 3000 lumens to get this in a 15'x20' room. With a headlamp and a moderately floody beam at arm's length, you can get this with 25-50 lumens.
GoldStar wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:35 am
This thread has me wondering: Do some folks turn all their lights on throughout their house and just leave them on all day? Perhaps no windows or little natural light and you spend most time at home? Even if so - why not only use lights in the rooms you are actually in?
I turn them off. My wife turns them on and leaves them on. My 3 year old goes through phases of going around the house turning them on.

I'd be much more strict about policing my family's behavior if we still had incandescents. With LED's, it's about a penny per bulb per day that gets left on.

The higher priority for me is getting my neighbor to leave off his giant flood lights that illuminate half of his 7 acres. I want to be able to see the stars again.
GoldStar wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:06 am
If I were you guys I would start installing motion sensors so they auto shut-off
That just gives our cat the ability to turn them on all night!
edge wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:09 pm
I've found that the old rule that LEDs are more expensive than CFLs has ceased to be true, for some time.
It might depend on local subsidies. When CFL's were mainstream, I used to pay about $1 each for them. In my area, LED's get a $2 per bulb subsidy, so they can be had for as cheap as $1 each in large packages.

Hockey10
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Hockey10 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:59 pm

I changed most of our bulbs over to LEDs about 18 months ago. The bar graph on my electric bill indicates that our electrical usage was lower in each of the 12 months after the change compared to that same month the year prior. I assume this decrease was due to the LEDs, as there was nothing else I could think of that would have caused a drop.

One benefit of LEDs is when the kids come home for the holidays and leave on lights everywhere, I don't get as upset as I did in the old days when the electric cost was higher.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Yooper » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:11 pm

On average, about 4 Kwh per day (we average 19-24 Kwh per day, depending on the time of year). I track gas and electric bill usage on an spreadsheet. More in the winter when it's darker and less in the summer when it's lighter - of course the furnace blower increases usage during the winter as well. It was dramatic. The after I changed out all the lights I was sure there was something wrong with the bill. But the next (and following months) the usage was much lower than it had been before the change took place.

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GoldStar
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by GoldStar » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:20 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:50 pm

I turn them off. My wife turns them on and leaves them on. My 3 year old goes through phases of going around the house turning them on.

I'd be much more strict about policing my family's behavior if we still had incandescents. With LED's, it's about a penny per bulb per day that gets left on.
I think these statements basically sum up this entire thread:
- If you are good about shutting off unused lights moving from incandescent lights to LEDs won't really save you money.
- If you/your-family don't bother shutting off lights - switching out to LEDs may save you a small amount of money.

Since both my spouse and myself were raised to shut off lights (and we raised our kids to do so in return) - we found little savings when we began swapping out.

jharkin
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by jharkin » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:23 pm

Didn't really notice a big change because we switched over the house a few at a time to CFL, and then a few at a time to LED.

Even if you do a big bang switch I doubt most households are going to see a dramatic change as lighting loads are not the majority use for most people (unless you are one of those annoying neighbors who leaves all your floodlights on 24/7).

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Calico » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:25 pm

I didn't notice any changes in my bill (or they were so small I didn't notice them much). But I have a small house and it's just me and my daughter. So we don't use a lot of electricity to begin with. What I like most about them is they don't burn out as quickly so I don't have to get on a step ladder several times a year to change the bulbs in the ceiling lights. I HATE climbing ladders. So there is the value to me.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Smoke » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:28 pm

I have no idea what savings I can attribute to led's over CFLs, That said I am certain it is a reduction however small.
I like others have replaced the HIGH usage lights, that seem to be on for significant portions of the day...Kitchen, Bathroom etc, generally any lights I turn off and within in mins the wife turns back on :D
After that as cfls burn out I replace those with LED.

One note, the further North you are with a long heating season Incandescent will actually cost you less to have on during heating season, as about 95% of the energy used goes to heat. A bit of a trade off. 100w incandescent costs only 5w aprox in heating season for the light.
The further South into A/C usage for a large part of the year, the energy savings are greater going to LEDs. Very little heat from LEDs.
A/c has to make up for the heat generation from incandescent 15 100w bulbs = a 1500w heater. Aprox.

I slowly have changed over confident it is cheaper, but It's small compared to other cost saving measures. I just accept it's better and move on.
Arguing for the sake of arguing is something I am not going to engage in.

PaleoWorx
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by PaleoWorx » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:35 pm

all my bulbs are LED but I am honestly not seeing that big of a difference
your bulbs are NOT your biggest energy consumers
water heater is. as well as HVAC

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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:01 pm

When I changed from incandescents to compact fluorescents there was a noticeable difference. I still have a supply of CFLs which I intend to use as time goes by. They're the remnants of an award from my then-employer. I don't know if there's a word to describe the opposite of an ironic punishment. They publicly gave me a case of them in recognition of the fact that I, who usually left later than all the tech staff, used my key to enter our department's server room and turn off the monitors for the night. Later on IT bought us monitors which turned themselves off.

I've begun selectively switching to LEDs. I'll keep using the remaining CFLs in lamps and such, but as built-in ceiling and fixture lights go it's LEDs for them when the current bulbs fail. There's been no noticeable electric bill change from it, but I prefer not introducing still more unused industrial mercury into the environment.

PJW

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dmk395
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by dmk395 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:01 pm

I will update this thread in a couple months and we will find out for sure if the debate is legit!

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:15 pm

GoldStar wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:20 pm
iamlucky13 wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:50 pm

I turn them off. My wife turns them on and leaves them on. My 3 year old goes through phases of going around the house turning them on.

I'd be much more strict about policing my family's behavior if we still had incandescents. With LED's, it's about a penny per bulb per day that gets left on.
I think these statements basically sum up this entire thread:
- If you are good about shutting off unused lights moving from incandescent lights to LEDs won't really save you money.
A 60 watt bulb 2000 hours pa burns 120 kwhr. The equivalent LED bulb will burn around 15 kwhr.

Even if you are good at turning out lights, you do need lights at some times and in some parts of the house. And that's an 85-90% saving in energy use when they are on.
- If you/your-family don't bother shutting off lights - switching out to LEDs may save you a small amount of money.
There are only 8760 hours in a year. To make an LED light burn as much as an incandescent that's on 800 hours p.a., you'd need to have it on 24/7 all year.

The other thing is that incandescent bulbs do 2,000 hours life. LEDs typically do over 12,000 - can do 20,000. I have yet to replace an LED bulb in 6 years of owning them except for a couple that failed pretty early.
Since both my spouse and myself were raised to shut off lights (and we raised our kids to do so in return) - we found little savings when we began swapping out.
It does depend in part where you live. I live in a long, thin Victorian house (therefore dark in the back) in a cloudy climate at a high-ish latitude (London 51 degrees N) so the sun's angle is generally lower. I managed to knock by electricity consumption down by about 500 kwhr pa (20%) by switching to LED bulbs from incandescents and halogens.

You may not have a very high electricity rate? US domestic average is about 13 c/ kwhr. Mine in US terms is about 26 c/ kwhr.
Last edited by Valuethinker on Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Valuethinker
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:17 pm

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:01 pm
When I changed from incandescents to compact fluorescents there was a noticeable difference. I still have a supply of CFLs which I intend to use as time goes by. They're the remnants of an award from my then-employer. I don't know if there's a word to describe the opposite of an ironic punishment. They publicly gave me a case of them in recognition of the fact that I, who usually left later than all the tech staff, used my key to enter our department's server room and turn off the monitors for the night. Later on IT bought us monitors which turned themselves off.

I've begun selectively switching to LEDs. I'll keep using the remaining CFLs in lamps and such, but as built-in ceiling and fixture lights go it's LEDs for them when the current bulbs fail. There's been no noticeable electric bill change from it, but I prefer not introducing still more unused industrial mercury into the environment.

PJW
As per up thread, places like The Home Depot appear to accept them for disposal. When they burn out one has to dispose of them anyway.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:26 pm

Smoke wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:28 pm
I have no idea what savings I can attribute to led's over CFLs, That said I am certain it is a reduction however small.
I like others have replaced the HIGH usage lights, that seem to be on for significant portions of the day...Kitchen, Bathroom etc, generally any lights I turn off and within in mins the wife turns back on :D
After that as cfls burn out I replace those with LED.

One note, the further North you are with a long heating season Incandescent will actually cost you less to have on during heating season, as about 95% of the energy used goes to heat. A bit of a trade off. 100w incandescent costs only 5w aprox in heating season for the light.
The further South into A/C usage for a large part of the year, the energy savings are greater going to LEDs. Very little heat from LEDs.
A/c has to make up for the heat generation from incandescent 15 100w bulbs = a 1500w heater. Aprox.
Depends how you heat:

- if you heat by electric induction (bar) there is no difference *except* lights are usually in the ceiling, and so to some extent that's less useful heat (mostly the irradiation effect is the same)

- if you heat with gas it's a lot cheaper to use the furnace (at North American retail prices, typically something like 30-40% of the cost, I believe)

- if you heat with a Heat Pump roughly speaking it is about 1/3rd the cost to heat with a HP over an incandescent or halogen bulb (at 300% efficiency, say - depends on external temperature)

- similarly for AC a HP running at COP 3.0 will use 1 kwhr to move 3 kwhr of heat, so the additional load (of using inefficient lightbulbs) is not huge. That said, kitchens (lots of halogens) typically get *hot* so it's definitely worth doing. Ditto bathrooms.

Someone living in a harsher winter climate in North America should almost certainly not retain halogen and incandescent bulbs on the basis that they are a way of keeping the house warm - if that's really the issue, then selectively use electric bar heaters.
I slowly have changed over confident it is cheaper, but It's small compared to other cost saving measures. I just accept it's better and move on.
Lighting is not small in the average home's electricity consumption. Say that's 10k kwhr pa in America - lighting is (was)* at least 1000 kwhr pa (there's a post up thread that says 20% but there is not a citation (I did look this up once)).

Switching from CFL to LED won't have much impact.

* the head of the UK grid control centre was quoted here as saying they could see the impact of CFL & LED lights on damping the peak demand (typically 4.30-8 pm on a weekday in winter when everyone comes home and puts the kettle, television, oven & lights on - remember we are 50 degrees N and N so it's an early sunset compared to lower 48 USA; also residential AC is almost unknown, although with recurrent heat waves that will change).

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by vitaflo » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:33 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:26 pm
Depends how you heat:
I'm not sure the point is really just about incandescent bulbs as a heat source. I mean we're talking about the cost/benefit of incandescent vs LED. If incandescent causes the furnace to turn on less often, then you need to account for that in the calculation of cost savings. It would not be strictly incandescent wattage vs LED wattage in that case.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:37 pm

RickBoglehead wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:12 am
JoMoney wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:01 am
Lighting makes up a negligible part of my electric usage. The big ones are air conditioning and the refrigerator. For me, the advantage of the new bulbs is they last practically forever and rarely need to be replaced.
This. Simply look at your electric bill. How many kWh did you use? I used 758. That's 758,000 watts. Divide by 30 days and 24 hours and that's 1,052 watts per hour on average.

If switch to CFL, that drops to maybe 28 watts for the equivalent light co. That's a 72% reduction compared to the original lightbulb.
If I switch to LED, it's around 14.5 watts. That's a 48% reduction, but the cost is already so low that it's less noticeable than the 72% prior reduction. And it's a 85.5% reduction compared to that original bulb.

And, as noted, compared to appliances and furnaces, it's barely noticeable. And the cost to go from CFL to LED is noticeable.

But that doesn't mean it's not good to save energy.
There's essentially no gain from moving to LEDs from CFLs (or not noticeable unless you are trying to live off grid) - the reason to do so is aesthetic.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Smoke » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:46 pm

vitaflo wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:33 pm
Valuethinker wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:26 pm
Depends how you heat:
I'm not sure the point is really just about incandescent bulbs as a heat source. I mean we're talking about the cost/benefit of incandescent vs LED. If incandescent causes the furnace to turn on less often, then you need to account for that in the calculation of cost savings. It would not be strictly incandescent wattage vs LED wattage in that case.
Thank you :sharebeer
Arguing for the sake of arguing is something I am not going to engage in.

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TierArtz
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by TierArtz » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:02 pm

DaftInvestor wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:36 am
TierArtz wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:18 am
I plot my electricity usage monthly and have migrated from incandescent, to CFLs, to LEDs over the last 10 years. I hated the slow warm-up time of CFLs and converted to LEDs as soon as I saw good prices at Costco (often with a built-in power provider discount). Our average monthly energy usage decreased by 500 kWh. Using a current average price yields a savings of $55 per month. The other energy saving steps taken were to put a timer on our hot water re-circulation pump to be off during sleeping hours, pull the plug on it when on vacation, and installed a new variable speed pool pump. The new pool pump was very recent, so it's had a minimal effect on the figures used.
Do you attribute the 500 kWh's to only the changing of bulbs or to the other items as well? If only to the bulbs you use a LOT of lighting - far more than the average household.
No; the savings is attributed to all the efforts. It would be beyond my math skills to estimate the savings from lighting only. Where we live, there really is no winter, so any reduction in heat from lighting should also provide a decreased need for air conditioning.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Smoke » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:08 pm

TierArtz wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:02 pm
DaftInvestor wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:36 am
TierArtz wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:18 am
I plot my electricity usage monthly and have migrated from incandescent, to CFLs, to LEDs over the last 10 years. I hated the slow warm-up time of CFLs and converted to LEDs as soon as I saw good prices at Costco (often with a built-in power provider discount). Our average monthly energy usage decreased by 500 kWh. Using a current average price yields a savings of $55 per month. The other energy saving steps taken were to put a timer on our hot water re-circulation pump to be off during sleeping hours, pull the plug on it when on vacation, and installed a new variable speed pool pump. The new pool pump was very recent, so it's had a minimal effect on the figures used.
Do you attribute the 500 kWh's to only the changing of bulbs or to the other items as well? If only to the bulbs you use a LOT of lighting - far more than the average household.
No; the savings is attributed to all the efforts. It would be beyond my math skills to estimate the savings from lighting only. Where we live, there really is no winter, so any reduction in heat from lighting should also provide a decreased need for air conditioning.
:sharebeer
Arguing for the sake of arguing is something I am not going to engage in.

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Toons
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Toons » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:58 pm

All LED here.
Bill is somewhat less ,,but
I am leaving lights on longer with LED
:mrgreen:
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David Jay
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by David Jay » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:06 pm

tindel wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:10 am
chickadee wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:07 am
Do they make LED lights for regular 3-way table lamps that are warm in color like traditional bulbs? I don't care for cold, blue lighting.

Edit: Okay, how does this one from Amazon look? Good reviews, but who knows...Are there brands you like for LEDs?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01CEK1O4E/re ... B00L4P0XKM
Those should be warm in color (2700k) but at >$15 a piece it will take a while to make your money back.
I agree on the color, the newer 2700K LEDs are pretty acceptable replacement for incandescent bulbs.
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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by gks » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:25 pm

Here in Tennessee, we pay ~$0.08/kwh. We have an all electric house, which means we have an electric stove, water heater, heat pump, water pump, and clothes dryer. Not to mention a 400 w LED TV. Switching to LED light bulbs is a rounding error in our electric consumption. But then, as the Incandescents die, they do get replaced by LED bulbs.

Greg

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Smoke » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:35 pm

gks wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:25 pm
Here in Tennessee, we pay ~$0.08/kwh. We have an all electric house, which means we have an electric stove, water heater, heat pump, water pump, and clothes dryer. Not to mention a 400 w LED TV. Switching to LED light bulbs is a rounding error in our electric consumption. But then, as the Incandescents die, they do get replaced by LED bulbs.

Greg
Hmmmm Middle Tn as well :sharebeer
Just for the AC costs during that season I would suggest going to LED from Incandescent for the lights that are on for long periods of time each day, Kitchen, bathroom, or where ever. Save the Incandescent bulbs for replacements for those lights used briefly as they run out then LED.
Arguing for the sake of arguing is something I am not going to engage in.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Ice-9 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:42 pm

I made the change from CFL to LED for the whole house over the course of 2011 to 2015 or so, and it was a lot more expensive to accomplish at that time than it is today. At some point, I charted my avg kwh per day for each billing period before, during, and after the switch, and it did generally move slightly downward. I think at today's prices, making the switch would be a no-brainer. LEDs are much more enjoyable quality of light as well.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Smoke » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:32 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:26 pm
Smoke wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:28 pm
I have no idea what savings I can attribute to led's over CFLs, That said I am certain it is a reduction however small.
I like others have replaced the HIGH usage lights, that seem to be on for significant portions of the day...Kitchen, Bathroom etc, generally any lights I turn off and within in mins the wife turns back on :D
After that as cfls burn out I replace those with LED.

One note, the further North you are with a long heating season Incandescent will actually cost you less to have on during heating season, as about 95% of the energy used goes to heat. A bit of a trade off. 100w incandescent costs only 5w aprox in heating season for the light.
The further South into A/C usage for a large part of the year, the energy savings are greater going to LEDs. Very little heat from LEDs.
A/c has to make up for the heat generation from incandescent 15 100w bulbs = a 1500w heater. Aprox.
Depends how you heat:

- if you heat by electric induction (bar) there is no difference *except* lights are usually in the ceiling, and so to some extent that's less useful heat (mostly the irradiation effect is the same)

- if you heat with gas it's a lot cheaper to use the furnace (at North American retail prices, typically something like 30-40% of the cost, I believe)

- if you heat with a Heat Pump roughly speaking it is about 1/3rd the cost to heat with a HP over an incandescent or halogen bulb (at 300% efficiency, say - depends on external temperature)

- similarly for AC a HP running at COP 3.0 will use 1 kwhr to move 3 kwhr of heat, so the additional load (of using inefficient lightbulbs) is not huge. That said, kitchens (lots of halogens) typically get *hot* so it's definitely worth doing. Ditto bathrooms.

Someone living in a harsher winter climate in North America should almost certainly not retain halogen and incandescent bulbs on the basis that they are a way of keeping the house warm - if that's really the issue, then selectively use electric bar heaters.
I slowly have changed over confident it is cheaper, but It's small compared to other cost saving measures. I just accept it's better and move on.
Lighting is not small in the average home's electricity consumption. Say that's 10k kwhr pa in America - lighting is (was)* at least 1000 kwhr pa (there's a post up thread that says 20% but there is not a citation (I did look this up once)).

Switching from CFL to LED won't have much impact.

* the head of the UK grid control centre was quoted here as saying they could see the impact of CFL & LED lights on damping the peak demand (typically 4.30-8 pm on a weekday in winter when everyone comes home and puts the kettle, television, oven & lights on - remember we are 50 degrees N and N so it's an early sunset compared to lower 48 USA; also residential AC is almost unknown, although with recurrent heat waves that will change).
Noooo it does not matter "how you heat" An Incandescent light bulb WILL be cheaper to run during heating season due to it's heat production, offsetting whatever heating method you use.
Arguing for the sake of arguing is something I am not going to engage in.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by iamlucky13 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:42 pm

Smoke wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:32 pm
Noooo it does not matter "how you heat" An Incandescent light bulb WILL be cheaper to run during heating season due to it's heat production, offsetting whatever heating method you use.
It will be cheaper in an indirect sense compared to its summer cost due to offsetting heat cost.

But just to clarify what the prior posters are getting at, it will not be cheaper in the winter compared to a more efficient bulb if your primary heat source is cheaper than electric resistance heat.

For example based on $0.12/kWh:

If you have a dozen 60W incandescent bulbs averaging 5 hours on-time per day, they'll provide 3.7 therms of heat per month, and the cost of that portion of your heat is about $13.

If you have a dozen 9W LED bulbs, and electric baseboard heat, they'll provide 0.6 therms of heat, and your baseboards will have to make up the rest on a 1:1 basis, so the total cost for that 3.7 therms is still $13.

If you have a dozen 9W LED bulbs and a heat pump with an average COP of 3.0, the bulbs still provide the same 0.6 therms of heat, but the remaining 3.1 therms difference that is no longer coming from bulbs takes 1/3 as much electricity to provide, so the total cost for that portion of your heat is $5.60.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Smoke » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:43 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:42 pm
Smoke wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:32 pm
Noooo it does not matter "how you heat" An Incandescent light bulb WILL be cheaper to run during heating season due to it's heat production, offsetting whatever heating method you use.
It will be cheaper in an indirect sense compared to its summer cost due to offsetting heat cost.

Yep, never said it was not.

But just to clarify what the prior posters are getting at, it will not be cheaper in the winter compared to a more efficient bulb if your primary heat source is cheaper than electric resistance heat.

Never said it was cheaper than an LED, just said it was cheaper in heating season

For example based on $0.12/kWh:

If you have a dozen 60W incandescent bulbs averaging 5 hours on-time per day, they'll provide 3.7 therms of heat per month, and the cost of that portion of your heat is about $13.

If you have a dozen 9W LED bulbs, and electric baseboard heat, they'll provide 0.6 therms of heat, and your baseboards will have to make up the rest on a 1:1 basis, so the total cost for that 3.7 therms is still $13.

If you have a dozen 9W LED bulbs and a heat pump with an average COP of 3.0, the bulbs still provide the same 0.6 therms of heat, but the remaining 3.1 therms difference that is no longer coming from bulbs takes 1/3 as much electricity to provide, so the total cost for that portion of your heat is $5.60.


Arguing for the sake of arguing is something I am not going to engage in.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by oslocal » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:29 am

I changed all mine except for one. I did it mainly because I really hate changing light bulbs, and LEDs last for a really long time. I have yet to change one in 5 years.

Regarding the laggard, it's a 200w incandescent dimmable. Couldn't seem to find one that fits inside my danish PH 5 lamp, so just got a pack of incandescents. It probably uses the same amount of energy as all my other bulbs combined. I figure it's just a matter of time before the technology catches up and I can replace that too.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Valuethinker » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:55 am

Smoke wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:32 pm


Noooo it does not matter "how you heat" An Incandescent light bulb WILL be cheaper to run during heating season due to it's heat production, offsetting whatever heating method you use.
Yes but the tradeoff vs. having an LED and using the heating system more makes the difference.

If you happen to have electric induction heating then it's even. Otherwise it's almost certainly not - with a heat pump you could be using 1/3rd the energy for the same heat. With a gas furnace you will be using pretty much the same energy (roughly 1.11x assuming 90% efficiency furnace) but it will almost certainly be massively cheaper.

Saving on heating bills is *not* a reason to have an incandescent lightbulb (unless you have electric bar heating).

As I say, when my LEDs cost US$20 (and my electricity was about US cents 20/ kwhr) it paid to pull out a 50 w halogen (perfectly good) and replace it with an LED bulb. I had to run the numbers (and in fact I built a Net Present Value model ;-)) to prove it to myself. The math was the same for incandescent bulbs.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by DaftInvestor » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:53 am

TierArtz wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:02 pm
DaftInvestor wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:36 am
TierArtz wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:18 am
I plot my electricity usage monthly and have migrated from incandescent, to CFLs, to LEDs over the last 10 years. I hated the slow warm-up time of CFLs and converted to LEDs as soon as I saw good prices at Costco (often with a built-in power provider discount). Our average monthly energy usage decreased by 500 kWh. Using a current average price yields a savings of $55 per month. The other energy saving steps taken were to put a timer on our hot water re-circulation pump to be off during sleeping hours, pull the plug on it when on vacation, and installed a new variable speed pool pump. The new pool pump was very recent, so it's had a minimal effect on the figures used.
Do you attribute the 500 kWh's to only the changing of bulbs or to the other items as well? If only to the bulbs you use a LOT of lighting - far more than the average household.
No; the savings is attributed to all the efforts. It would be beyond my math skills to estimate the savings from lighting only. Where we live, there really is no winter, so any reduction in heat from lighting should also provide a decreased need for air conditioning.
Okay - that makes sense - congratulations on the savings! I am guessing the Bulb switch-out was a minimum part of the overall reduction (unless you are similar to other folks in this thread that were leaving lots of lights on all the time).

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Smoke » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:46 am

Valuethinker wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:55 am
Smoke wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:32 pm


Noooo it does not matter "how you heat" An Incandescent light bulb WILL be cheaper to run during heating season due to it's heat production, offsetting whatever heating method you use.
Yes but the tradeoff vs. having an LED and using the heating system more makes the difference.

I never said it wasn't, exactly what part of ... an incandescent bulb is cheaper to run during heating season are you not understanding.
Or do you just like to argue?
Arguing for the sake of arguing is something I am not going to engage in.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by J G Bankerton » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:05 am

Valuethinker wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:55 am
With a gas furnace ...
You get the best savings. I got a tax break to install high efficiency furnace and on demand hot water heater, I switched from oil to natural gas. The heat that used to go up the chimney is now recycled into the house. I save about $4000 a year in heat and hot water. I also save on electricity as the hot air blower doesn't work as hard.

I'm sure the bulbs, especially changing from incandescent to LED, saves energy but other programs saved so much more. Was there ever a tax credit to switch bulbs?

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Valuethinker » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:53 am

Smoke wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:46 am
Valuethinker wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:55 am
Smoke wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:32 pm


Noooo it does not matter "how you heat" An Incandescent light bulb WILL be cheaper to run during heating season due to it's heat production, offsetting whatever heating method you use.
Yes but the tradeoff vs. having an LED and using the heating system more makes the difference.

I never said it wasn't, exactly what part of ... an incandescent bulb is cheaper to run during heating season are you not understanding.
Or do you just like to argue?
37,000 posts in, I must do ;-). Or as Monty Python put it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1gf957Qw7A

Perhaps somewhere in the threading I missed your line of thought: I thought you were arguing that a reason to keep an incandescent bulb was that it lowered one's heating bill in winter? When in fact that is never an argument for keeping an incandescent bulb - although it would be neutral if you heat with electric resistance.
Last edited by Valuethinker on Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Valuethinker » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:57 am

J G Bankerton wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:05 am
Valuethinker wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:55 am
With a gas furnace ...
You get the best savings. I got a tax break to install high efficiency furnace and on demand hot water heater, I switched from oil to natural gas. The heat that used to go up the chimney is now recycled into the house. I save about $4000 a year in heat and hot water. I also save on electricity as the hot air blower doesn't work as hard.

I'm sure the bulbs, especially changing from incandescent to LED, saves energy but other programs saved so much more. Was there ever a tax credit to switch bulbs?
Some utilities had a free lightbulbs scheme - the regulators gave them credit for demand reduction programmes*

What happened was the US government (under President Bush) signed into law various energy efficiency mandates - one of which raised the efficiency standards of lightbulbs (incandescents are horribly inefficient) so over time incandescents progressively did not meet the standards (there actually are incandescents and halogens which do, but in the meantime LED technology lapped them so much that the market for those bulbs (which last only c. 1/6th as long as LED equivalents) began to implode.

* this both saves expensive new capacity and the expensive purchase of electricity at peak times both of which eventually fall on consumers.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by TomatoTomahto » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:31 pm

J G Bankerton wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:05 am
Valuethinker wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:55 am
With a gas furnace ...
You get the best savings. I got a tax break to install high efficiency furnace and on demand hot water heater, I switched from oil to natural gas. The heat that used to go up the chimney is now recycled into the house. I save about $4000 a year in heat and hot water. I also save on electricity as the hot air blower doesn't work as hard.

I'm sure the bulbs, especially changing from incandescent to LED, saves energy but other programs saved so much more. Was there ever a tax credit to switch bulbs?
I got free LED bulbs for many of the fixtures in my new house from MA. The ones that require a tall ladder, or funky incandescents (Osram Linestra replacement LEDs still pricey at >$50), are up to me to replace.

The government (Federal and MA) is also very generous in sharing my costs for solar panels, solar batteries, geothermal heating and cooling, water heating, etc.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by dcabler » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:39 pm

RickBoglehead wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:12 am
JoMoney wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:01 am
Lighting makes up a negligible part of my electric usage. The big ones are air conditioning and the refrigerator. For me, the advantage of the new bulbs is they last practically forever and rarely need to be replaced.
This. Simply look at your electric bill. How many kWh did you use? I used 758. That's 758,000 watts. Divide by 30 days and 24 hours and that's 1,052 watts per hour on average.

If switch to CFL, that drops to maybe 28 watts for the equivalent light co. That's a 72% reduction compared to the original lightbulb.
If I switch to LED, it's around 14.5 watts. That's a 48% reduction, but the cost is already so low that it's less noticeable than the 72% prior reduction. And it's a 85.5% reduction compared to that original bulb.

And, as noted, compared to appliances and furnaces, it's barely noticeable. And the cost to go from CFL to LED is noticeable.

But that doesn't mean it's not good to save energy.
Similar. We did it across the house, including an outdoor pole light by the driveway that is on all night. A few 1's of $ for it alone vs. what was there.

For us, though, at the same time, we already have reasonably efficient appliances so what helped us more was
1) finding the "hotspots" in the ceiling using an infrared camera and beefing up the insulation in those spots
2) Better control of the thermostat
3) Probably the biggest one for us was the usage of pump for our swimming pool. Some good articles and calculators out there - ultimately we calculated that we had the pump on for about 3X longer per day than needed. This made a large, noticeable change in our electric bill a few years ago when we made the change.

This time of year is usually when we get our lowest bills. 2400 sq ft house in Austin, TX with gas heat, water heater, and oven, but electric stovetop. November's bill was $111



Cheers...

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Starfish » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:15 pm

BolderBoy wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:05 pm
dmk395 wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:30 pm
Anyone notice a significant savings going from incandescent or CFL to LED? For about $50 in bulbs I switched all the bulbs in my house to LED. I did it to save $ and help the environment. Just wondering if anyone actually noticed a real savings month to month...
$50 switched you completely over to LEDs? Was closer to $200 for me (from Costco), various sizes, all 5000k

That can't be right.
Indoor home use bulbs are at 2700K. Even outdoor I wouldn't do 5000K.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by iamlucky13 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:57 pm

Smoke wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:46 am
Valuethinker wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:55 am
Smoke wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:32 pm


Noooo it does not matter "how you heat" An Incandescent light bulb WILL be cheaper to run during heating season due to it's heat production, offsetting whatever heating method you use.
Yes but the tradeoff vs. having an LED and using the heating system more makes the difference.

I never said it wasn't, exactly what part of ... an incandescent bulb is cheaper to run during heating season are you not understanding.
Or do you just like to argue?
Valuethinker and I both appear to have misunderstood your prior posts. Reading them again in the context of your followups, I recognize what you intended to convey, but I think it could have been worded more clearly.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by iamlucky13 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:08 pm

Starfish wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:15 pm
BolderBoy wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:05 pm
dmk395 wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:30 pm
Anyone notice a significant savings going from incandescent or CFL to LED? For about $50 in bulbs I switched all the bulbs in my house to LED. I did it to save $ and help the environment. Just wondering if anyone actually noticed a real savings month to month...
$50 switched you completely over to LEDs? Was closer to $200 for me (from Costco), various sizes, all 5000k
That can't be right.
Indoor home use bulbs are at 2700K. Even outdoor I wouldn't do 5000K.
This is mainly a personal preference matter. Many (most?) of us find 5000K a harsh, cold color temperature at medium to low intensities at night, and can't stand it in the home. However, when it is the predominant light source at high intensity, it can be a better choice, and 4000-5000K lights are often chosen for office, or laboratory environments. See also, Purkinje effect. It also matches more naturally with daylight.

In fact, for color critical work like graphics design that may take place with some daylight present, the norm is 6500K light, similar to a mix of direct sunlight and diffuse sky light.

For the home, I prefer 2700K for spaces meant for relaxing, and 3000K for activity oriented spaces like the bathroom or kitchen.

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:10 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:17 pm
Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:01 pm
When I changed from incandescents to compact fluorescents there was a noticeable difference. I still have a supply of CFLs which I intend to use as time goes by. They're the remnants of an award from my then-employer. I don't know if there's a word to describe the opposite of an ironic punishment. They publicly gave me a case of them in recognition of the fact that I, who usually left later than all the tech staff, used my key to enter our department's server room and turn off the monitors for the night. Later on IT bought us monitors which turned themselves off.

I've begun selectively switching to LEDs. I'll keep using the remaining CFLs in lamps and such, but as built-in ceiling and fixture lights go it's LEDs for them when the current bulbs fail. There's been no noticeable electric bill change from it, but I prefer not introducing still more unused industrial mercury into the environment.

PJW
As per up thread, places like The Home Depot appear to accept them for disposal. When they burn out one has to dispose of them anyway.
That's why I was careful to include the word unused.

PJW

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Re: Electric bill with LED

Post by Uniballer » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:00 pm

I still have a few incandescent bulbs in areas that are not frequently used. I have eliminated all CFLs from my home and work spaces. This is because light from CFLs is terrible quality compared to incandescent and LED.

My wife has had serious visual difficulties for some years, and is now legally blind. She does much better with 5000K broad-spectrum lighting (T8 flourescent or LED) than with Soft White (2700K), which she refers to as "brown lights". All of the utility spaces in our house, including the kitchen, as well as her bathroom and closets, have 5000K lighting.

I know a floral designer who kept increasing the brightness of the CFL bulbs she was using, and complained that she couldn't see the colors. She had enough of a science background to understand why when I got out the cheapo spectroscope, and showed her that the colors she was looking for are not there in the light from the CFLs. I set her up with some 5000K high CRI LEDs and she is very happy.

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