Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
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Retired2013
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Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by Retired2013 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:56 am

Does anybody else notice the change in the business models of today verses years-ago? Today, most large purchases are based on your income or your negotiation skills. What happen to the good old days?

Cars:

Remember when you went to the car dealer and saw the list price and negotiated a few hundred dollars off of the list price? Some people actually didn’t even negotiate anything off the list price.

Now days, the manufacture has raised prices faster than inflation and can now offer huge rebates if they wish, in addition to negotiating the list price down. According to my wife, some of these vehicles had better have a toilet in them as the list price is more than our first house.

College:

Remember in the old days applying to college, and paying the list price? No financial aid form. No financial aid. Only a scholarship if you were lucky.

Then the colleges start raising prices faster than inflation. You now fill out a financial aid form to see how much aid you qualify for based on your family income. The college determines what a fair price is for you. Some colleges are now cutting their list price, which is still too high and offer financial aid because the competition is getting greater. The college then say look at how much financial aid we provide!

Healthcare Insurance:

Based on your income, the government will determine how much of a subsidy you receive. For many years, insurance prices increased faster than inflation. Every year the insurance company will apply for much more than required knowing the state will allow something lower. Ask for a 20% increase in premiums and receive a 10% approval from the state. If your income is too high, we charge you full list price.

If you go without insurance, the list price for the service used is 2x – 10x the insurance discounted price. I remember my parents paying cash when the service was rendered. Doctor call to the house, $5 cash. Yes, I remember the doctor coming to the house.

Long-Term Health Care:

You apply for insurance and if the insurance company under-priced the product, they can increase your premium in the future. You then have several choices but nobody like the choices.

We didn’t have long-term in the old days. Grandparent stayed at our house in my room. However, when somebody signed a contract, there was no renegotiation the terms at a later time with a take it or leave it.

Grocery Store:

One of our supermarkets has a weekly ad. People that shop there say how much they save. When I look at the ad, I see large savings (buy two, get three free) but what the ad doesn’t show is the list price. When we do pick-up a few items, the receipt will say we saves $100 for those few items.
In reality, I know I can go to Wal-Mart and get the same items for about the same net amount without any sale. It’s amazing how people will say they saved $1,000s at this supermarket over the course of a year. No! The list prices are too high and you can only buy what’s on sale or you over paid. I don’t care what the receipt says I saved.

Housing:

When I see a home for sale, the first thing I look at is what the house is assessed for. I love it when I see a home listed for sale at $600k and then look up the assessment which is assessed at $300k. After a couple of weeks sitting on the market, “New Price.”
I always tell my wife that the assessor should raise the assessment to the asking price. You know then that the owner would then tell the assessor why they are already over assessed at $300k.

Buy for $450k and save $150k!

Just my observations! Jack the prices up so we can tell you how much you saved.

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PrettyCoolWorkshop
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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by PrettyCoolWorkshop » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:51 pm

Some of these practices are designed to capture consumer surplus, and they do it very well.
Be greedy and fearful. All the time.

megabad
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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by megabad » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:47 pm

Retired2013 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:56 am
Does anybody else notice the change in the business models of today verses years-ago? Today, most large purchases are based on your income or your negotiation skills. What happen to the good old days?

Cars:

Remember when you went to the car dealer and saw the list price and negotiated a few hundred dollars off of the list price? Some people actually didn’t even negotiate anything off the list price.

Now days, the manufacture has raised prices faster than inflation and can now offer huge rebates if they wish, in addition to negotiating the list price down. According to my wife, some of these vehicles had better have a toilet in them as the list price is more than our first house.
Agree with the above poster--this is simple supply and demand, price sensitivity and consumer surplus. The general premise hasn't changed in my many years in my experience. The only thing that has is that the consumer is more able to determine fair market value today (due to the internet). But this should relatively tighten price distribution for the same product, not widen it as you hypothesize.

College:

Remember in the old days applying to college, and paying the list price? No financial aid form. No financial aid. Only a scholarship if you were lucky.

Then the colleges start raising prices faster than inflation. You now fill out a financial aid form to see how much aid you qualify for based on your family income. The college determines what a fair price is for you. Some colleges are now cutting their list price, which is still too high and offer financial aid because the competition is getting greater. The college then say look at how much financial aid we provide!
I don't understand. The college doesn't determine a fair price, you do. You have free will and can choose not to pay whatever they charge. Government aid is a separate issue and simply serves as an inflationary driver but does not prevent you from making market price decisions.
The US government has had a progressive financial stance for many years, so I don't regard the consideration of income necessarily as a change in stance over time.


Healthcare Insurance:

Based on your income, the government will determine how much of a subsidy you receive. For many years, insurance prices increased faster than inflation. Every year the insurance company will apply for much more than required knowing the state will allow something lower. Ask for a 20% increase in premiums and receive a 10% approval from the state. If your income is too high, we charge you full list price.

If you go without insurance, the list price for the service used is 2x – 10x the insurance discounted price. I remember my parents paying cash when the service was rendered. Doctor call to the house, $5 cash. Yes, I remember the doctor coming to the house.
See my comments above of government aid and inflationary pressure. As the law stands next year, there is no penalty for going without insurance and therefore my market choice comment still applies here. Regardless of your income, you decide what the value of health insurance or healthcare is to you just as you would decide whether to pay that doctor $5 to come over to see you years ago.

Long-Term Health Care:

You apply for insurance and if the insurance company under-priced the product, they can increase your premium in the future. You then have several choices but nobody like the choices.

We didn’t have long-term in the old days. Grandparent stayed at our house in my room. However, when somebody signed a contract, there was no renegotiation the terms at a later time with a take it or leave it.
There is no agreement to fix premiums in most LT care plans. The terms have not been renogotiated. I agree that it would be simpler to return to a time where families supported each other more. But as life expectancy increases, older folks need more specialized care for a longer period of time than they did in the past.

Grocery Store:

One of our supermarkets has a weekly ad. People that shop there say how much they save. When I look at the ad, I see large savings (buy two, get three free) but what the ad doesn’t show is the list price. When we do pick-up a few items, the receipt will say we saves $100 for those few items.
In reality, I know I can go to Wal-Mart and get the same items for about the same net amount without any sale. It’s amazing how people will say they saved $1,000s at this supermarket over the course of a year. No! The list prices are too high and you can only buy what’s on sale or you over paid. I don’t care what the receipt says I saved.
This has been the case for not less than 40 years in my experience. I don't care about sales, I care about price. Marketing trickery has been around for ages and is relatively easy to avoid in my experience.

Housing:

When I see a home for sale, the first thing I look at is what the house is assessed for. I love it when I see a home listed for sale at $600k and then look up the assessment which is assessed at $300k. After a couple of weeks sitting on the market, “New Price.”
I always tell my wife that the assessor should raise the assessment to the asking price. You know then that the owner would then tell the assessor why they are already over assessed at $300k.

Buy for $450k and save $150k!

Just my observations! Jack the prices up so we can tell you how much you saved.
Not sure if you are talking about a tax assessment or an appraisal here, but I suppose it doesn't matter to me. An item is worth what a buyer will pay for it. It doesn't matter what the seller thinks, the appraiser, the tax assessor or anyone else. I find that many sellers do not understand this, but I also have found this to be the case for as long as I have been alive.

RetiredAL
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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by RetiredAL » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:46 pm

I agree with the OP and many of the followup comments.

My local newspaper rate slowly climbed across about 2 years from $110 per quarter to $180, then jumped in a single billing cycle to $225. I called to cancel, they offered me a new rate of $85 a quarter, which I took. Their model is obviously increase the rate until they complain/cancel, then settle for a much lower rate. We'll see how long this lasts.

3feetpete
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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by 3feetpete » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:46 am

The worst in my opinion are the cable tv/internet providers. They offer much lower pricing to new customers and treat loyal existing customers terribly. The only way for an existing customer to get a fair deal is to quit or threaten to quit every year. What other industry has a business model like that?

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Kenkat
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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by Kenkat » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:02 am

I think retail has learned that people love a sale and thinking they got a good deal.

The key to buying things today that didn’t really exist in the old days is access to information. Pricing has become much more transparent if you chose to look and do some research. Some people don’t chose to do that and so will just look for sales - not realizing it is slightly cheaper on Amazon or at Wal-Mart at regular price.

When I bought my first car, I had a print out of a spreadsheet that converted a monthly payment back into a total amount. This was 1986. Drove the sales guys crazy. This guy has factor sheets! Finally got to talk to the sales manager and he did the old closing technique where we split the “difference” that they create. Close enough, sold.

Now you can just run it like an auction and make the dealers bid against one another over the internet.

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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by cadreamer2015 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:51 am

How is this actionable?
De gustibus non est disputandum

02nz
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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by 02nz » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:12 am

Retired2013 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:56 am
Does anybody else notice the change in the business models of today verses years-ago? Today, most large purchases are based on your income or your negotiation skills. What happen to the good old days?

Cars:

Remember when you went to the car dealer and saw the list price and negotiated a few hundred dollars off of the list price? Some people actually didn’t even negotiate anything off the list price.

Now days, the manufacture has raised prices faster than inflation and can now offer huge rebates if they wish, in addition to negotiating the list price down. According to my wife, some of these vehicles had better have a toilet in them as the list price is more than our first house.
This is plainly incorrect when it comes to cars. Manufacturers typically raise prices 1, at most 2% a year, while inflation is running closer to 3%. A typical $30K car generally sees price increases of no more than $500 a year, sometimes not at all. And standard equipment levels (esp. but not just safety equipment) are rising. As cars get redesigned they also get bigger. So you get as much room in a Civic today as you did in an Accord two decades ago, but the Civic costs much less after adjusting for inflation.

It is true that there are more cars at the higher end, some even from non-luxury makers. It's amazing to me how much people are willing to pay for gussied-up SUVs. But that's just automakers responding to (and profiting from) changing tastes. Apples to apples, cars have never been cheaper.

(BTW you seem to be aware of the concept of inflation, yet compare current list prices to the price of your first house which was presumably many years ago.)

michaeljc70
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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by michaeljc70 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:26 pm

The prices for groceries at Walmart are always more than the sale prices at other local supermarkets. The prices at Walmart are always cheaper than non-sale prices at other local supermarkets. I disagree that just shopping at Walmart will save you the same as shopping the weekly ads. Just as a quick example, a 12 pack of Coke is $4.78 at Walmart. I get them on sale at Jewel 3/$10 sometime 4/$10.

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GoldStar
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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by GoldStar » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:38 pm

In most of the cases sounds like you are looking at the wrong prices (and even in the "old days" you were).

For example - on Cars - I never started with Car List prices. I remember my parents - 50 years ago - had a place that they were able to order an "Invoice Price Book" from for a given car manufacturer and year (yes - this was available decades before the internet).
Always start with Invoice Prices - my goal is to pay below it but of course if inventory is low - you may have to pay above it.

As far as Sales Prices at your local grocery store - I'm sure others will tell you what those are worth...

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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by whodidntante » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:45 pm

3feetpete wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:46 am
The worst in my opinion are the cable tv/internet providers. They offer much lower pricing to new customers and treat loyal existing customers terribly. The only way for an existing customer to get a fair deal is to quit or threaten to quit every year. What other industry has a business model like that?
Satellite radio

Jags4186
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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by Jags4186 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:04 pm

We have definitely added gamification to the way we consume. There are a few things to consider:

1) Competition has never been greater
2) Consumers are more knowledgeable than ever
3) Products, for the most part, have never been this good and certainly have never been cheaper. You get way more for your money today than you did in years past.

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by DaftInvestor » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:04 pm

I disagree (or have different views) with many of your observations.

Regarding Car Prices - there are probably fewer folks today than their were in the old days that know you should never pay or use the List Price in your negotiations. It has been that way for many decades. Decades before the internet there were ways of getting the Invoice Prices and Dealer Incentive lists before you started shopping. The internet has made it more widely known.

Colleges: I can't speak to financial-aid since it doesn't apply to me. BUT - for merit scholarships -The key is to attend a school whereby your test-scores are higher than the average. The school will have incentive for you to attend (since its all about the US&News and other rankings) and give you a scholarship as an incentive. The Ivy-Leagues give out ZERO in merit-money - they don't need to - enough wealthy folks willing to pay full price.

Healthcare: System has always been rigged (and continues to be so) for folks that are employed full time and have their companies negotiating rates and paying a big part of the bill. In the 90's is when the big change happened whereby companies stopped paying 100% of benefits and starting asking their employees to contribute to the cost. I don't think I can say much above gov't subsidies (last time I did I got dinged for being political).

Long-Term Care: Most still don't have it.

Grocery Store: Not sure what changed. If you know your prices and your values you will recognize that many of the sales and specials are only to try to get you to buy certain brands, certain foods, certain items WHILE there are a few gems in the sales - a few loss-leaders worth buying.

Housing: I don't think this has changed either - there have always been folks that try to get a higher price for their house than what its worth. I believe even if you are fool enough NOT to look at the assessed value, provided you are getting a mortgage, your mortgage lender will compare the price to the assessed value to assure, if they get stuck with your house, they aren't getting ripped off.

(The real change might simply be your knowledge of these tactics occurring between the old days and today. They have always been there).
Last edited by DaftInvestor on Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pdavi21
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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by pdavi21 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:09 pm

It's been going on since the dawn of trade. Perhaps, these tactics can be regulated out, but it would be a sunk government cost that impedes economic activity. For each tactic, the rights of citizens have to be weighed against the impact to government budgets and economies.

michaeljc70
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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by michaeljc70 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:11 pm

3feetpete wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:46 am
The worst in my opinion are the cable tv/internet providers. They offer much lower pricing to new customers and treat loyal existing customers terribly. The only way for an existing customer to get a fair deal is to quit or threaten to quit every year. What other industry has a business model like that?
You do have to say you want to cancel. Everytime I call and threaten or ask if there are new promos, it is never as good as when I am actually cancelling.

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by DaftInvestor » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:26 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:11 pm
3feetpete wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:46 am
The worst in my opinion are the cable tv/internet providers. They offer much lower pricing to new customers and treat loyal existing customers terribly. The only way for an existing customer to get a fair deal is to quit or threaten to quit every year. What other industry has a business model like that?
You do have to say you want to cancel. Everytime I call and threaten or ask if there are new promos, it is never as good as when I am actually cancelling.
Last time I did this they called my bluff - so I actually switched. Now I will be swapping out my connectivity every 2 years....

multiham
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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by multiham » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:28 pm

DaftInvestor wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:04 pm

Grocery Store: Not sure what changed. If you know your prices and your values you will recognize that many of the sales and specials are only to try to get you to buy certain brands, certain foods, certain items WHILE there are a few gems in the sales - a few loss-leaders worth buying.

Not sure how many people realize that the manufacturer (Coke, Pepsi, Mondelez, Proctor & Gamble, etc) pay for the promotions you see at the stores. The store does not typically invest their $ in these promotions. Therefore, it is all about the manufacturers trying to get you to buy a certain brand or a certain product within a brand. As long as the retailer (Publix, Walmart, etc) make their profit targets, they truly don't care what brand sells. Every retailer has a strategy on pricing and if you understand it, you know when to buy at that particular store. Those that have no point of difference will go out of business.

michaeljc70
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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by michaeljc70 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:44 pm

DaftInvestor wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:26 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:11 pm
3feetpete wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:46 am
The worst in my opinion are the cable tv/internet providers. They offer much lower pricing to new customers and treat loyal existing customers terribly. The only way for an existing customer to get a fair deal is to quit or threaten to quit every year. What other industry has a business model like that?
You do have to say you want to cancel. Everytime I call and threaten or ask if there are new promos, it is never as good as when I am actually cancelling.
Last time I did this they called my bluff - so I actually switched. Now I will be swapping out my connectivity every 2 years....
I always say cancel on X (giving a date 3 or 4 weeks out). Then if I cannot get a better deal, I call them back and tell them to cancel the cancellation. :shock:

I am going to do the same with internet now. I don't mind switching every 2 years if it saves me $200-$300.

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by DaftInvestor » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:51 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:44 pm
DaftInvestor wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:26 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:11 pm
3feetpete wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:46 am
The worst in my opinion are the cable tv/internet providers. They offer much lower pricing to new customers and treat loyal existing customers terribly. The only way for an existing customer to get a fair deal is to quit or threaten to quit every year. What other industry has a business model like that?
You do have to say you want to cancel. Everytime I call and threaten or ask if there are new promos, it is never as good as when I am actually cancelling.
Last time I did this they called my bluff - so I actually switched. Now I will be swapping out my connectivity every 2 years....
I always say cancel on X (giving a date 3 or 4 weeks out). Then if I cannot get a better deal, I call them back and tell them to cancel the cancellation. :shock:

I am going to do the same with internet now. I don't mind switching every 2 years if it saves me $200-$300.
I literally had the better deal in hand. "If you can meet this price I'll stick with you, otherwise I'll cancel.". They were even able to go somewhere o n their end while I was on the phone to verify the promotion I was talking about (So they knew I wasn't lying) but said there was nothing they could do to match the price. I'm not sure what they were thinking - perhaps they thought I wouldn't really switch or will come back - no clue. I will do the same thing again as I agree with you - I don't mind switching if it savings me hundreds of dollars a year.

Jags4186
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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by Jags4186 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:52 pm

multiham wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:28 pm
DaftInvestor wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:04 pm

Grocery Store: Not sure what changed. If you know your prices and your values you will recognize that many of the sales and specials are only to try to get you to buy certain brands, certain foods, certain items WHILE there are a few gems in the sales - a few loss-leaders worth buying.

Not sure how many people realize that the manufacturer (Coke, Pepsi, Mondelez, Proctor & Gamble, etc) pay for the promotions you see at the stores. The store does not typically invest their $ in these promotions. Therefore, it is all about the manufacturers trying to get you to buy a certain brand or a certain product within a brand. As long as the retailer (Publix, Walmart, etc) make their profit targets, they truly don't care what brand sells. Every retailer has a strategy on pricing and if you understand it, you know when to buy at that particular store. Those that have no point of difference will go out of business.
Yes and no. There are many factors that come into play when it comes to marketing. Manufacturers and grocers have agreements which are multilayered. For example, say we’re selling garbage bags to the grocer for $5 a case. The grocer then sells this to the consumer for $6/case. There might be a program that the manufacturerpays back the grocer $1/case for every case sold. Grocers then use this income stream either to pad their pockets or as a factor in planograming—the manufacturer who has a stronger backend program will get preferred placement, or in ad placement in the weekly flyer. Manufacturers can of course offer sales which they fund but grocers too can use their own money to promote products. Why would they do this? Sometimes its the traditional loss leader which gets people in the door, but that’s more rare than you think. It usually has to do with growth programs. Say the grocery store and manufacturer agree that if sales grow on their product line 10% YoY, the manufacturer will pay an additional $0.25/case back to case zero for the entire year. When grocers get close to that number and it’s year end you can see some great discounts on certain products as its usually an all or nothing arrangement (if you hit 9.9% sales growth, the manufacturer pays nothing).

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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by knpstr » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:53 pm

Inb4 lock
Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. -Marcus Aurelius

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by DaftInvestor » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:53 pm

knpstr wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:53 pm
Inb4 lock
Congratulations. :confused

multiham
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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by multiham » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:05 pm

Jags4186 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:52 pm
multiham wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:28 pm
DaftInvestor wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:04 pm

Grocery Store: Not sure what changed. If you know your prices and your values you will recognize that many of the sales and specials are only to try to get you to buy certain brands, certain foods, certain items WHILE there are a few gems in the sales - a few loss-leaders worth buying.

Not sure how many people realize that the manufacturer (Coke, Pepsi, Mondelez, Proctor & Gamble, etc) pay for the promotions you see at the stores. The store does not typically invest their $ in these promotions. Therefore, it is all about the manufacturers trying to get you to buy a certain brand or a certain product within a brand. As long as the retailer (Publix, Walmart, etc) make their profit targets, they truly don't care what brand sells. Every retailer has a strategy on pricing and if you understand it, you know when to buy at that particular store. Those that have no point of difference will go out of business.
Yes and no. There are many factors that come into play when it comes to marketing. Manufacturers and grocers have agreements which are multilayered. For example, say we’re selling garbage bags to the grocer for $5 a case. The grocer then sells this to the consumer for $6/case. There might be a program that the manufacturerpays back the grocer $1/case for every case sold. Grocers then use this income stream either to pad their pockets or as a factor in planograming—the manufacturer who has a stronger backend program will get preferred placement, or in ad placement in the weekly flyer. Manufacturers can of course offer sales which they fund but grocers too can use their own money to promote products. Why would they do this? Sometimes its the traditional loss leader which gets people in the door, but that’s more rare than you think. It usually has to do with growth programs. Say the grocery store and manufacturer agree that if sales grow on their product line 10% YoY, the manufacturer will pay an additional $0.25/case back to case zero for the entire year. When grocers get close to that number and it’s year end you can see some great discounts on certain products as its usually an all or nothing arrangement (if you hit 9.9% sales growth, the manufacturer pays nothing).
Agree 100% with what you said. I was trying to keep it very simple. I am a sales rep for a very large Health & Beauty Care Company and deal with retailers everyday. I should have said the majority of the time. Some retailers make us pay penny for penny on price reductions while others eat part of the price reduction as they still make the required margin.
My belief is that most people don't understand that stores don't fund the majority of the sale prices. It is the manufacturers. Even in your example, the manufacturer is really paying the discount as the store uses the $ they earn on the volume program to fund the additional discount. You can bet if the retailer is not close to earning the volume incentive, they will not invest a nickel of their own $.

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Re: Do I have a rebate, subsidy, savings for you!

Post by LadyGeek » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:23 pm

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