Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

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ThankYouJack
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Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by ThankYouJack » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:12 pm

My wife has a 60D that she likes but has always wanted a full frame camera. I haven’t done recent research but am guessing the body would be about a grand on the low end and another lens would be close to the same. Any recommendations?

She doesn’t use a DSLR a ton, so getting an iPhone XS could be another option. How happy are photographers with the dugitial(?) shallow depth of field on the new phones? How are they in low light? Also what is the maximum the photos can be blown up to?

Obviously a FF digital SLR will take better photos with a good photographer I’m just not sure the extra cost is worth it for us.

PFInterest
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by PFInterest » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:17 pm

the question is: why?
does she make money? does she use consistently? is this a step towards some production based work?

or just because she doesnt have it?

JD2775
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by JD2775 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:23 pm

If the choices are between an iPhone or a FF camera than she clearly doesn't need the FF camera. Just get the iPhone.

ladycat
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by ladycat » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:26 pm

I think you'll find Ken Rockwell's site useful. https://kenrockwell.com/

ThankYouJack
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by ThankYouJack » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:27 pm

PFInterest wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:17 pm
the question is: why?
does she make money? does she use consistently? is this a step towards some production based work?

or just because she doesnt have it?
She has shot weddings, real estate and portraits for money.
But it is more of a want than a must have. I was thinking it would make a nice Christmas gift but not sure it’s worth upgrading for reasons I stated

HereToLearn
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by HereToLearn » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:32 pm

I have last year's iPhone X. It takes wonderful photos in full light and the type of photos you would expect in low light.

When I know I will want a good photo (holidays, family events), I still lug out the Nikon D600 that I bought maybe six years ago now. I think it was $2600 for the body and kit lens at the time. It was a 24-85, so really nice range that satisfied most of my everyday shots except high school sports.

So, a six year old DSLR takes better photos than an iPhone X. I do not know the Canon line so cannot comment. It took me a little while to adjust to the FF. My two prior Nikon DSLRs were not FF.

stan1
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by stan1 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:37 pm

ThankYouJack wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:12 pm
My wife has a 60D that she likes but has always wanted a full frame camera. I haven’t done recent research but am guessing the body would be about a grand on the low end and another lens would be close to the same. Any recommendations?

She doesn’t use a DSLR a ton, so getting an iPhone XS could be another option. How happy are photographers with the dugitial(?) shallow depth of field on the new phones? How are they in low light? Also what is the maximum the photos can be blown up to?

Obviously a FF digital SLR will take better photos with a good photographer I’m just not sure the extra cost is worth it for us.
I'll assume you can afford the new phone and the SLR camera so this is a value discussion not an affordability one. I'd get her an XS if she has a 6 or 7, and the SLR if she wants it.

Is she creative and does she view photography as a hobby or a potential business? Does she want to display her work or gift it to family and friends as a piece of art? If she enjoys photography and wants to be creative and seek perfection then I wouldn't deny her something she enjoys because you don't see value in it.

The downside for me is a lot of extra weight and bulk to carry around when traveling. This include going through airport security, carry on space, and extra weight to carry while walking at your destination. To me this is a showstopper as I value traveling light more than artistic photos.
Last edited by stan1 on Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

PFInterest
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by PFInterest » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:37 pm

ThankYouJack wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:27 pm
She has shot weddings, real estate and portraits for money.
But it is more of a want than a must have. I was thinking it would make a nice Christmas gift but not sure it’s worth upgrading for reasons I stated
maybe some new lenses would be a better investment?

Teague
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by Teague » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:07 pm

ThankYouJack wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:12 pm
My wife has a 60D that she likes but has always wanted a full frame camera.
There's your answer. Buy her a nice full frame camera, and at least one lens that will work with it, if she doesn't have such a lens already. A basic 50mm f2.8, or better, would work for starters.

It doesn't have to make financial sense. She wants one. Happy wife, happy life, and all that.
Semper Augustus

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Cycle
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by Cycle » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:15 pm

My RX100 V is a pretty darn good alternative to a DSLR, but it is not in the DSLR or cell phone category, it's somewhere in between. Similar to a cellphone though, it is pocketable and inconspicuous.

ThankYouJack
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by ThankYouJack » Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:24 pm

Thanks all. I think upgrading from an iPhone 7 to XS makes more sense than a pro-cumer level camera to a full frame. Maybe if she starts using the DSLR more I’ll get her one for her birthday

quantAndHold
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by quantAndHold » Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:57 pm

I have an iPhone X. I've had FF cameras. Apples and oranges. If she has a 60D and wants FF, an iPhone will not be an adequate substitute. The iPhone has a marvelous camera...for a phone. It does not have a camera that will compete in any way with the 60D, much less a FF Canon.

Whether or not she needs or will use a FF camera is a different question. Just sayin' that an iPhone is not in any way comparable to a recent model DSLR.

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Watty
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by Watty » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:15 pm

ThankYouJack wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:12 pm
Obviously a FF digital SLR will take better photos with a good photographer.....
That is not obvious at all.

The situations where a FF camera is better are mainly;
1) When the light is low, like candle light.
2) When you want really high speed photography like catching sports action where you want to freeze the action.
3) If you are making very large prints.
4) Very wide angle shots like some landscape photography.

When she is not doing photography like that then you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a photo made with a full frame camera and an updated version of her current camera.

Even then an updated camera with the smaller sensor like hers(called APS-c) can still do pretty good in many challenging situations and most people could not tell the difference.

The smaller sensor like hers(APS-C) also has some advantages where may it may be better like;
1) Telephoto photography, the smaller sensor effectively has a 1.6 time magnification, so they are good at wildlife photography.
2) Typical lenses have problems around the edge of a frame. When a full frame lense is used on a camera with a smaller sensor it will crop off the edges which is usually where any problems are.

In addition to the cost the another problem with the full frame cameras and lenses is that they are larger and heavier than the smaller cameras and she may be more prone to not take it with her as much as a smaller camera.

A problem with going to a full frame camera is that some of the lenses you have may not work with the full frame camera. Some of them can work though. The way you can tell the difference is to look at the her lens to see if it;

1) Will not work on full frame: Says EF-S and has a white square on the mount.
2) Will work on full frame: Says EF and has a red dot.

Getting the new full frame lenses can cost LOT more than the new camera body.

The full frame camera and lenses are also larger and heavier so you may be less likely to take your camera with you.

I would really let her decide what she wants so that she can pick out just what exactly what she wants.

That said, Canon sells refurbished cameras on their website and it comes with a Canon warranty. I have bought equipment there and it always looked like new and I have never had any problems.

https://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/cata ... d&pageSize:&

One note, if she has something like an 18-55 lens that came with her camera 10+ years ago and she has a choice of also getting a new 18-55 lens with a new camera then it would be good to get the new lens because it is likely a two or three generation newer version of the old lens and in a bundle the kit lens does not cost much.
ThankYouJack wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:12 pm
I haven’t done recent research but am guessing the body would be about a grand on the low end and another lens would be close to the same. Any recommendations?
Everyone is different but for $2,000 budget I would get the non-full frame refurbished bundle.

EOS Rebel T7i EF-S 18-135 IS STM Kit Refurbished - $850
https://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/cata ... efurbished

and

EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6L IS USM Refurbished - $1080
https://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/cata ... efurbished

(This lens will work on a full frame body so she could use it in the future if she switches to full frame.)

and things like extra batteries, filters, memory cards etc.

But I would check with her first to see if she is OK with not getting a full frame camera.

ThankYouJack
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by ThankYouJack » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:54 pm

^ Thanks. Good info. She likes mostly prime lenses so don't think she'd use the telephoto much. So that makes sense to check with her first before buying. I'm usually the researcher with the tech specs of new equipment and she's the talent behind the camera.

ThankYouJack
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by ThankYouJack » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:41 pm

Watty wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:15 pm
ThankYouJack wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:12 pm
Obviously a FF digital SLR will take better photos with a good photographer.....
That is not obvious at all.

The situations where a FF camera is better are mainly;
1) When the light is low, like candle light.
2) When you want really high speed photography like catching sports action where you want to freeze the action.
3) If you are making very large prints.
4) Very wide angle shots like some landscape photography.
Won't a FF also have a more shallow depth of field if the lens is the same?

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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by Ged » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:43 pm

A telephoto lens can also be a prime lens. Prime vs zoom is orthogonal to focal length.

If she is skilled enough for the difference between prime and zoom lenses to matter she will appreciate the difference between a crop and a full frame camera.

However if she takes her kit on airplanes or hiking weight and size become issues. Something to consider when buying. I've taken full frame cameras on cruises and what I've ended up taking is smaller aperture lenses to save weight and bulk.

I don't think most people who sell their work would be happy with a phone camera.

ThankYouJack
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by ThankYouJack » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:41 pm

Ged wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:43 pm
A telephoto lens can also be a prime lens. Prime vs zoom is orthogonal to focal length.

If she is skilled enough for the difference between prime and zoom lenses to matter she will appreciate the difference between a crop and a full frame camera.

However if she takes her kit on airplanes or hiking weight and size become issues. Something to consider when buying. I've taken full frame cameras on cruises and what I've ended up taking is smaller aperture lenses to save weight and bulk.

I don't think most people who sell their work would be happy with a phone camera.
Good points. On the flip side to weighing more, I believe higher end DSLRs can have better build quality (less plastic) and be more weather resistant. And some prefer the bigger size as they fit better in one's hand. But is it worth the price difference for just occasional use, I don't think so for us.

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Ged
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by Ged » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:48 pm

ThankYouJack wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:41 pm
Ged wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:43 pm
A telephoto lens can also be a prime lens. Prime vs zoom is orthogonal to focal length.

If she is skilled enough for the difference between prime and zoom lenses to matter she will appreciate the difference between a crop and a full frame camera.

However if she takes her kit on airplanes or hiking weight and size become issues. Something to consider when buying. I've taken full frame cameras on cruises and what I've ended up taking is smaller aperture lenses to save weight and bulk.

I don't think most people who sell their work would be happy with a phone camera.
Good points. On the flip side to weighing more, I believe higher end DSLRs can have better build quality (less plastic) and be more weather resistant. And some prefer the bigger size as they fit better in one's hand. But is it worth the price difference for just occasional use, I don't think so for us.
As an alternative I'd suggest a really good wide angle lens if she doesn't have one. I find that they are quite useful especially for interior shots and it seems to me more people fixate on telephotos which are actually less useful in general use.

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Watty
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by Watty » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:52 pm

ThankYouJack wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:41 pm
Watty wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:15 pm
ThankYouJack wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:12 pm
Obviously a FF digital SLR will take better photos with a good photographer.....
That is not obvious at all.

The situations where a FF camera is better are mainly;
1) When the light is low, like candle light.
2) When you want really high speed photography like catching sports action where you want to freeze the action.
3) If you are making very large prints.
4) Very wide angle shots like some landscape photography.
Won't a FF also have a more shallow depth of field if the lens is the same?
There are multiple factors but if you took a picture from the same location with a FF and APS-C camera with the same lens with the same settings then the depth of field would be the same.

The APS-C image would be basically like you had taken a FF print and then cut off the edges. The part that remains would look basically the same in both the FF image and the APS-C image. That is why they call them a "crop sensor" camera.

For example imagine that you are talking a picture of a barn in a field with the same settings. The FF camera would show a lot of sky and the field but APS-C crop sensor camera would look like you had zoomed with 1.6 magnification and might just show the front of the barn.

With the FF image you could later crop it to match what the composition would be with the APS-C camera, the problem is that the APS-C sensor is only about 40% of the size of the FF frame sensor when you look at it in square millimeters. If you cropped down a 20 meg FF image to the same size it would only be around 8 meg. Many APS-C cameras are around 23 meg now so that would be a noticeable difference in image quality.

If you had a zoom lens you could zoom to a wider angle with the APS-C camera to get the same composition, but you may reach the limit of how far you can zoom out.

Here is an example of relative sensor size(not real size).

Image

A full frame lens needs to cover the entire green area which is why they are so much larger, heavier, and more expensive. When you use a FF lens on an APS-C camera the only part of the image that is used is the size of the yellow rectangle so the edges, which may have problems, are cut off.

The reason that the FF sensor works better in some situation is that each pixel is a lot larger and receives a lot more light. This allows it to work better in low light and there is less noise at higher ISO speeds.

TN_Boy
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by TN_Boy » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:53 pm

ThankYouJack wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:54 pm
^ Thanks. Good info. She likes mostly prime lenses so don't think she'd use the telephoto much. So that makes sense to check with her first before buying. I'm usually the researcher with the tech specs of new equipment and she's the talent behind the camera.
Yes, before you buy a camera, I think you should have an overall strategy. If you buy a FF, you'll probably need to buy multiple lenses. And maybe filters for the lenses. And batteries. And maybe a new case. And ..... etc. You probably want an idea of where the $$ will wind up after everything is bought before the investment in the body.

ThankYouJack
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by ThankYouJack » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:57 pm

Ged wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:48 pm
ThankYouJack wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:41 pm
Ged wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:43 pm
A telephoto lens can also be a prime lens. Prime vs zoom is orthogonal to focal length.

If she is skilled enough for the difference between prime and zoom lenses to matter she will appreciate the difference between a crop and a full frame camera.

However if she takes her kit on airplanes or hiking weight and size become issues. Something to consider when buying. I've taken full frame cameras on cruises and what I've ended up taking is smaller aperture lenses to save weight and bulk.

I don't think most people who sell their work would be happy with a phone camera.
Good points. On the flip side to weighing more, I believe higher end DSLRs can have better build quality (less plastic) and be more weather resistant. And some prefer the bigger size as they fit better in one's hand. But is it worth the price difference for just occasional use, I don't think so for us.
As an alternative I'd suggest a really good wide angle lens if she doesn't have one. I find that they are quite useful especially for interior shots and it seems to me more people fixate on telephotos which are actually less useful in general use.
Yes, she has a wide angle which was great for real estate shots. Makes small rooms look much bigger

Nekrotok
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by Nekrotok » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:57 pm

ThankYouJack wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:41 pm
Good points. On the flip side to weighing more, I believe higher end DSLRs can have better build quality (less plastic) and be more weather resistant. And some prefer the bigger size as they fit better in one's hand. But is it worth the price difference for just occasional use, I don't think so for us.
FYI, the 60D is the same size and weight as a full-frame 6d so there's no change there:
https://cameradecision.com/compare/Cano ... 6D-Mark-II

Also, EF lenses are compatible with full frame whereas EF-S lenses are not, so you can check whether you would need new lenses or not. Most primes are EF.

A phone is no substitute for a camera if she is shooting for anything other than personal shots. If she's still shooting weddings, real estate, or portraits for money, she will still want to use a camera, whether that's the 60d or a 6d. The main difference from crop to full frame, is the crop is effectively multiplying the focal length and f-stop by 1.6. So 50mm f/1.8 on 60d is equivalent to about 85mm f/2.8 on the 6d. And vice versa, so if she shoots 85mm f/1.8 on the 6d, that's equivalent to 50mm f/1.2 on the 60d. If that sounds appealing (I assume if she's shooting primes, she can figure out the implications), then get a 6d. If she wants a new phone, get a new phone, but the two aren't substitutes for each other any more than a Bentley is for a Ferrari.

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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by rob » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:06 pm

Analytically: I always chuckle at "full frame" - compared to what.... 35mm was the crop of it's day as most serious photographers used larger film. My first camera as a kid was a larger format than 35mm - that just makes me old. To someone shooting 8x10 sheet film [there are a couple left], it's positively tiny :-) A FF body has a look that is different from aps-c and that comes with some advantages and disadvantages and a lot of preference.

However: The fact that she has always wanted one is a better reason than any analytical reason since your role is not as camera geek to her :D Get the SLR... who cares about what version of a phone they have.
| Rob | Its a dangerous business going out your front door. - J.R.R.Tolkien

Jags4186
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by Jags4186 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:10 pm

What makes me chuckle is the “she shoots weddings” comments and then the throwing an iPhone into the conversation. If I hired a wedding photographer and they showed up with their cellphone I’d refuse to pay.

srt7
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by srt7 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:13 pm

Teague wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:07 pm
ThankYouJack wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:12 pm
My wife has a 60D that she likes but has always wanted a full frame camera.
There's your answer. Buy her a nice full frame camera, and at least one lens that will work with it, if she doesn't have such a lens already. A basic 50mm f2.8, or better, would work for starters.

It doesn't have to make financial sense. She wants one. Happy wife, happy life, and all that.
This ^^^

It’s a gift so put your heart before the head.
I can't think of anything more luxurious than owning my time. - remomnyc

srt7
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by srt7 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:14 pm

Jags4186 wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:10 pm
What makes me chuckle is the “she shoots weddings” comments and then the throwing an iPhone into the conversation. If I hired a wedding photographer and they showed up with their cellphone I’d refuse to pay.
LOL! Great point!
I can't think of anything more luxurious than owning my time. - remomnyc

ThankYouJack
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by ThankYouJack » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:16 pm

Jags4186 wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:10 pm
What makes me chuckle is the “she shoots weddings” comments and then the throwing an iPhone into the conversation. If I hired a wedding photographer and they showed up with their cellphone I’d refuse to pay.
She doesn't do weddings anymore. And she would keep the 60D for any gigs and occasional family shoots.

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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by bhsince87 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:20 pm

I own a Canon 5D4 full frame ( and a 5d3 before that) and a 7D2 crop frame ( and a 7D1) before that. I am not a professional, just a hobbyist.

The full frame difference is significant, especially at the wide end. It also makes a difference in low light performance and in auto focus accuracy.

The full frame also offers more options for cropping in post processing.

If she has always wanted one, get her one. There is no other way to understand the difference than to experience it first hand!
Retirement: When you reach a point where you have enough. Or when you've had enough.

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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by Toons » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:29 pm

Phone
:happy
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Bogle7
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upgrade to Leica.

Post by Bogle7 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:44 pm

Leica Q.
Read the reviews.

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JaneyLH
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by JaneyLH » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:08 pm

Ged wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:43 pm
A telephoto lens can also be a prime lens. Prime vs zoom is orthogonal to focal length.

However if she takes her kit on airplanes or hiking weight and size become issues. Something to consider when buying. I've taken full frame cameras on cruises and what I've ended up taking is smaller aperture lenses to save weight and bulk.
The definition of "prime lens" is a lens of fixed focal length. In other words, the opposite of a telephoto lens.

I'm surprised nobody has brought up a Sony mirrorless A7iii or an older used model. These full frame cameras are small enough to tuck into your purse, especially with a prime lens. My favorite for this purpose is an FE 2.8/35 mm Zeiss lens. Very small and easy to travel with! The quality of the pictures allows cropping so no telephoto is needed.

I'm an amateur but finding that I'm able to contribute to professional stock photography sites and create wall-worthy landscapes. Priceless! Photography is a hobby you can participate in for the rest of your life. Work with your wife to give her the camera she deserves!

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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by tuningfork » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:36 pm

JaneyLH wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:08 pm
Ged wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:43 pm
A telephoto lens can also be a prime lens. Prime vs zoom is orthogonal to focal length.

However if she takes her kit on airplanes or hiking weight and size become issues. Something to consider when buying. I've taken full frame cameras on cruises and what I've ended up taking is smaller aperture lenses to save weight and bulk.
The definition of "prime lens" is a lens of fixed focal length. In other words, the opposite of a telephoto lens.
Not quite. You mean a zoom lens (variable focal length). Telephoto means a large focal length, and there are certainly telephoto prime lenses (e.g. fixed 300mm or 500mm) as well as telephoto zoom lenses (e.g 100-400mm).
I'm surprised nobody has brought up a Sony mirrorless A7iii or an older used model. These full frame cameras are small enough to tuck into your purse, especially with a prime lens. My favorite for this purpose is an FE 2.8/35 mm Zeiss lens. Very small and easy to travel with! The quality of the pictures allows cropping so no telephoto is needed.
The Sony A7 series mirrorless cameras are excellent. The body is indeed smaller and lighter than full frame DSLR bodies. The lenses in general are big and bulky like any full frame lens. I have the 35mm Zeiss you mention and it is small and lightweight, useful for when you want a slightly wider than normal view in a lightweight package.

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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by stimulacra » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:53 pm

What lenses do you guys have?

Any Canon EF-S (designed for APS-C sensors) she might already have will not be compatible with a FF camera within the Canon EOS line.

I would only upgrade to Canon's FF line if you guys have a decent collection and investment in Canon's EF lenses. Immediately she will notice that each lens will be effectively wider and she'll be able to take the type of photos those lenses were designed to take (i.e. a 50 mm will be a good general purpose lens on a FF body versus being a short telephoto on a APS-C body).

If her lens collection only consist of EF-S lenses, they're already designed and optimized for APS-C cameras and are useless on a FF camera.

If staying within Canon's APS-C model line, have her check out the Canon 80D or 7D Mk II.

If wanting to upgrade to FF, Canon 6D or 6D mk II. The 6D controls and ergonomics mimics the 60D and 70D in a lot of ways so she'll be able to pick up the camera and not miss a beat.
The original 6D are going for pretty cheap on the used market. The 6D mk II can be had for under $900 if you look around.

The new iPhone Xs portrait mode is neat at a casual glance but if you really zoom in on the pixels in a lot of cases, you can see a fair amount of compression artifacts and janky software doctoring. You can blow them up for 5x7 or 8x10 and they'll look nice but some of them will look fake if blown up to poster size.

Dottie57
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by Dottie57 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:21 pm

ThankYouJack wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:24 pm
Thanks all. I think upgrading from an iPhone 7 to XS makes more sense than a pro-cumer level camera to a full frame. Maybe if she starts using the DSLR more I’ll get her one for her birthday
If I wanted a FF camera, an iPhone would not do it. Hard to see led screen in full sun. Harder to hold when taking a picture. Easier to drop when taking a photo.

Next trip I take will buy a Sony RX 100 of some type.


If you have the money, Buy your wife a camera she really wants.
Last edited by Dottie57 on Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ThankYouJack
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by ThankYouJack » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:27 pm

stimulacra wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:53 pm
What lenses do you guys have?

Any Canon EF-S (designed for APS-C sensors) she might already have will not be compatible with a FF camera within the Canon EOS line.

I would only upgrade to Canon's FF line if you guys have a decent collection and investment in Canon's EF lenses. Immediately she will notice that each lens will be effectively wider and she'll be able to take the type of photos those lenses were designed to take (i.e. a 50 mm will be a good general purpose lens on a FF body versus being a short telephoto on a APS-C body).

If her lens collection only consist of EF-S lenses, they're already designed and optimized for APS-C cameras and are useless on a FF camera.

If staying within Canon's APS-C model line, have her check out the Canon 80D or 7D Mk II.

If wanting to upgrade to FF, Canon 6D or 6D mk II. The 6D controls and ergonomics mimics the 60D and 70D in a lot of ways so she'll be able to pick up the camera and not miss a beat.
The original 6D are going for pretty cheap on the used market. The 6D mk II can be had for under $900 if you look around.

The new iPhone Xs portrait mode is neat at a casual glance but if you really zoom in on the pixels in a lot of cases, you can see a fair amount of compression artifacts and janky software doctoring. You can blow them up for 5x7 or 8x10 and they'll look nice but some of them will look fake if blown up to poster size.
thanks for the feedback. Her go to portrait lens is an 85mm 1.8 EF. It would work well on a FF. She also has a 50mm 1.4 but needs to be repaired, a wide angle zoom for real estate (EF but may be too wide for a FF), and an EF-S kit lens.

Dottie57
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by Dottie57 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:28 pm

Jags4186 wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:10 pm
What makes me chuckle is the “she shoots weddings” comments and then the throwing an iPhone into the conversation. If I hired a wedding photographer and they showed up with their cellphone I’d refuse to pay.
Bingo.

3-20Characters
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by 3-20Characters » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:37 pm

Dottie57 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:28 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:10 pm
What makes me chuckle is the “she shoots weddings” comments and then the throwing an iPhone into the conversation. If I hired a wedding photographer and they showed up with their cellphone I’d refuse to pay.
Bingo.
I would rate someone’s work on their work, not their choice of equipment.

5 Movies Filmed With an iPhone
https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainmen ... hone.html/

TN_Boy
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by TN_Boy » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:01 pm

3-20Characters wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:37 pm
Dottie57 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:28 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:10 pm
What makes me chuckle is the “she shoots weddings” comments and then the throwing an iPhone into the conversation. If I hired a wedding photographer and they showed up with their cellphone I’d refuse to pay.
Bingo.
I would rate someone’s work on their work, not their choice of equipment.

5 Movies Filmed With an iPhone
https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainmen ... hone.html/
Movie requirements != wedding photo requirements.

In general, every time I see an "example" of how a cellphone camera can compete with a "real" camera, the choice of subject matter is chosen to ensure the cellphone actually can compete.

By which I mean nobody says "let me show you how my iphone got tight headshots of the blue heron 50 yards away at dusk."

To be fair, there are more and more situations where the cellphone can give a decent account of itself.

Dottie57
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by Dottie57 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:20 pm

3-20Characters wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:37 pm
Dottie57 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:28 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:10 pm
What makes me chuckle is the “she shoots weddings” comments and then the throwing an iPhone into the conversation. If I hired a wedding photographer and they showed up with their cellphone I’d refuse to pay.
Bingo.
I would rate someone’s work on their work, not their choice of equipment.

5 Movies Filmed With an iPhone
https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainmen ... hone.html/
There is a lot to be said for the iPhone camera. I have a 7S. It takes beautiful cameras for a very casual user. It is wonderful for taking spontaneous photos.

But I always feel precarious using it. As if it will drop at any time. It is not comfortable ergonomically. Hate the LED screen in the sun.

And I never take videos.


I think OP should buy the type of camera his wife wants and not the camera a frugal internet investment group recommends.

stimulacra
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by stimulacra » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:50 pm

ThankYouJack wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:27 pm
stimulacra wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:53 pm
What lenses do you guys have?

Any Canon EF-S (designed for APS-C sensors) she might already have will not be compatible with a FF camera within the Canon EOS line.

I would only upgrade to Canon's FF line if you guys have a decent collection and investment in Canon's EF lenses. Immediately she will notice that each lens will be effectively wider and she'll be able to take the type of photos those lenses were designed to take (i.e. a 50 mm will be a good general purpose lens on a FF body versus being a short telephoto on a APS-C body).

If her lens collection only consist of EF-S lenses, they're already designed and optimized for APS-C cameras and are useless on a FF camera.

If staying within Canon's APS-C model line, have her check out the Canon 80D or 7D Mk II.

If wanting to upgrade to FF, Canon 6D or 6D mk II. The 6D controls and ergonomics mimics the 60D and 70D in a lot of ways so she'll be able to pick up the camera and not miss a beat.
The original 6D are going for pretty cheap on the used market. The 6D mk II can be had for under $900 if you look around.

The new iPhone Xs portrait mode is neat at a casual glance but if you really zoom in on the pixels in a lot of cases, you can see a fair amount of compression artifacts and janky software doctoring. You can blow them up for 5x7 or 8x10 and they'll look nice but some of them will look fake if blown up to poster size.
thanks for the feedback. Her go to portrait lens is an 85mm 1.8 EF. It would work well on a FF. She also has a 50mm 1.4 but needs to be repaired, a wide angle zoom for real estate (EF but may be too wide for a FF), and an EF-S kit lens.
Looks like based on your comments, she would appreciate an FF camera and has a lens collection that would transition seamlessly to it (She can sell off the 60D with the kit lens for a couple of hundred bucks).

One other benefit of her moving into a full frame body, if she were to get a nice fast 35 mm prime (2 or 1.4), she could use it as intended, a nice wide angle lens for group or scene shots, versus as a “normal” lens on a APS-C body.

For people commenting that OP's wife can effectively market herself as a wedding photographer with an iPhone. It's not always that easy, yes, an iPhone can take award winning professional level photos but a big part of professional and/or pro-sumer grade gear is that it is a reliable workhorse day in and day out. What's the battery life of an iPhone during when you have to cover back-to-back wedding ceremony, behind-the-scenes moments, and reception? How patient will the client be when your iPhone is suddenly full or needs to be juiced up?

Lastly, professional photographers, do feel a pressure (justified or not) to keep a sense of technological distance between the gear they use and the consumer level gear that other guests might be using. They're ALWAYS getting gear-checked by amateur shutterbugs. It's why you seldom see professional wedding photographers use a point-and-shoot, rangefinders, or smartphones. When they do it's usually for a very specific technical or aesthetic reason.

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Ged
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by Ged » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:09 pm

JaneyLH wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:08 pm
Ged wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:43 pm
A telephoto lens can also be a prime lens. Prime vs zoom is orthogonal to focal length.

However if she takes her kit on airplanes or hiking weight and size become issues. Something to consider when buying. I've taken full frame cameras on cruises and what I've ended up taking is smaller aperture lenses to save weight and bulk.
The definition of "prime lens" is a lens of fixed focal length. In other words, the opposite of a telephoto lens.
That is not correct.

A telephoto lens may be either fixed focal length or zoom. Technically it refers to a specific type of lens arrangement that gives a focal length longer than the physical length of the lens, but it is also used generically for long focal length lenses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephoto_lens

Canon also offers mirrorless full frame cameras.

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Watty
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by Watty » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:19 pm

:oops:

One more thing, when researching Canon cameras be careful with the names.

I realized that when I was looking at your original post I did a quick Google and I looked up the specs for D60(circa 2002) instead of the 60D.

I like Canon cameras but their naming conventions are terrible.

Jags4186
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by Jags4186 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:26 pm

3-20Characters wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:37 pm
Dottie57 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:28 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:10 pm
What makes me chuckle is the “she shoots weddings” comments and then the throwing an iPhone into the conversation. If I hired a wedding photographer and they showed up with their cellphone I’d refuse to pay.
Bingo.
I would rate someone’s work on their work, not their choice of equipment.

5 Movies Filmed With an iPhone
https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainmen ... hone.html/
I’m sure it shoots a great movie. Especially when you can have multiple takes, proper lighting, and if something doesn’t work you can stage it differently. But in a setting where there are no do overs I would prefer the person who I’m likely spending $1000s of dollars to show up with professional equipment that will get it done right the first (and only) time.

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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by smackboy1 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:52 pm

ThankYouJack wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:27 pm
thanks for the feedback. Her go to portrait lens is an 85mm 1.8 EF. It would work well on a FF. She also has a 50mm 1.4 but needs to be repaired, a wide angle zoom for real estate (EF but may be too wide for a FF), and an EF-S kit lens.
It sounds like she is a semi-pro or serious amateur photographer. I would ask her what she wants: an iPhone or a FF camera. They are not equivalent at all. No matter what the Apple fanboys say, the tiny sensor and lens cannot take pictures/video with high dynamic range and creamy bokeh (and it sounds like she would know the difference). On the other hand, the iPhone she will have in her pocket every day and can post directly to Instagram.

Assuming it's a FF camera she wants, check out dpreview.com. There are so many different variables it's easy to buy the wrong camera. All we know is she wants FF sensor.

- Does she only shoot stills or is video important too? If she will shoot video too, then a hybrid camera is what she will want. A hybrid FF camera can be more $.

- It's the beginning of twilight for DSLRs now. They are still very popular and widely available, but mirrorless cameras are the future. This is especially true if she wants mirrorless features like in-body image stabilization (IBIS). All the major manufacturers are pursuing mirrorless tech, but Sony is the leader and has the largest product range for mirrorless cameras. 2 new cameras expected to be released in 2019 so there may be attractive pricing on older models.

- How invested in Canon is she? Switching brands means she may have to get new lenses. Example, if she gets a Sony camera it's possible to use some Canon lenses with an adapter, but it can be fiddly. She would want to get Sony mount lenses.

- Even if she stays with Canon, if she changes from APS-C to FF sensor her current lenses will not look the same. EF-S mount lenses are for APS-C only and won't work on FF. EF lenses will work for both APS-C and FF cameras but the crop factor means the image size and light gathering will be different. So she might have to get new lenses anyway.

For your budget of under $2,000 I would recommend taking a look at the Sony A7ii or A7Rii body with a Tamron 28-75 F/2.8 Sony mirrorless FF E mount lens. I like IBIS because it compensates for hand shake so I can slow shutter for low light or effects - with any lens (especially nice for shallow depth of field F/0.95 full manual lenses).
Disclaimer: nothing written here should be taken as legal advice, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

ThankYouJack
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by ThankYouJack » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:43 am

Watty wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:19 pm
:oops:

One more thing, when researching Canon cameras be careful with the names.

I realized that when I was looking at your original post I did a quick Google and I looked up the specs for D60(circa 2002) instead of the 60D.

I like Canon cameras but their naming conventions are terrible.
I haven't looked into it recently but I think Canon's naming is typically:

XD = (ex. 5D) Pro (top of the) line
XXD = (ex. 60D) Pro-sumer level
XXXD = Consumer Level (Rebels)

And with new release, they add a "Mark". So 6D, Mark 2 would be the 2nd release of that camera

TN_Boy
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by TN_Boy » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:09 am

stimulacra wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:50 pm

stuff deleted ...

For people commenting that OP's wife can effectively market herself as a wedding photographer with an iPhone. It's not always that easy, yes, an iPhone can take award winning professional level photos but a big part of professional and/or pro-sumer grade gear is that it is a reliable workhorse day in and day out. What's the battery life of an iPhone during when you have to cover back-to-back wedding ceremony, behind-the-scenes moments, and reception? How patient will the client be when your iPhone is suddenly full or needs to be juiced up?

Lastly, professional photographers, do feel a pressure (justified or not) to keep a sense of technological distance between the gear they use and the consumer level gear that other guests might be using. They're ALWAYS getting gear-checked by amateur shutterbugs. It's why you seldom see professional wedding photographers use a point-and-shoot, rangefinders, or smartphones. When they do it's usually for a very specific technical or aesthetic reason.
I didn't really think anybody was suggesting that an iPhone could be an effective replacement to a real camera for a wedding photographer -- it was more, hey get her an iPhone.

And of course, I'd say an iPhone would be an epic fail for many wedding photo shots. It's not a "impress the amateurs thing". It's like, you need the right tool.

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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by midareff » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:35 am

ThankYouJack wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:12 pm
My wife has a 60D that she likes but has always wanted a full frame camera. I haven’t done recent research but am guessing the body would be about a grand on the low end and another lens would be close to the same. Any recommendations?

She doesn’t use a DSLR a ton, so getting an iPhone XS could be another option. How happy are photographers with the dugitial(?) shallow depth of field on the new phones? How are they in low light? Also what is the maximum the photos can be blown up to?

Obviously a FF digital SLR will take better photos with a good photographer I’m just not sure the extra cost is worth it for us.
There is simply no possible way an iPhone and a Full Frame camera will produce anywhere near identical image quality. Typically, full frame is larger and heavier than APS-C (60D), which has a 1.6 multiplier in lens reach compared to full frame. As an example, a 70-200 lens on full frame will be 112-320 on APS-C. Is your wife doing weddings, commercial work, studio work, etc., which would require top tier quality? .. and professional grade lenses (Canon L series) to go with that? There can be significant differences between I need and I want, but then again a happy wife equals a happy life.

sabtastic
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by sabtastic » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:14 am

Found this thread by accident but had to comment. Exact same situation as you - DW is amateur photographer and has used the 60d for years. Got the 6D mk II for her (it's on sale on canon's website) and she hasn't stopped talking about it. Sounds a lot like watty up there. She already has bags of the other accessories (I had to sneak in and make sure the lenses would all work) so it was a real winner all around.

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wander
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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by wander » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:58 pm

ThankYouJack wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:12 pm
My wife has a 60D that she likes but has always wanted a full frame camera. I haven’t done recent research but am guessing the body would be about a grand on the low end and another lens would be close to the same. Any recommendations?

She doesn’t use a DSLR a ton, so getting an iPhone XS could be another option. How happy are photographers with the dugitial(?) shallow depth of field on the new phones? How are they in low light? Also what is the maximum the photos can be blown up to?

Obviously a FF digital SLR will take better photos with a good photographer I’m just not sure the extra cost is worth it for us.
If she is a good photographer, she will take great pictures on either FF or the 60D. The Iphone is in a different category and its pictures cannot reach the quality of the DSRL.

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Re: Upgrade Canon 60D to FF or new iPhone?

Post by dpm321 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:25 pm

I've been a photographer (hobby) for over 45 years and since 1978 have shot Canon. 2 years ago I switched to Fuji and have since shelved my Canon DSLR and lenses. The Fuji is compact, highly flexible and provides excellent image quality. Take a look as another (IMHO Bette) choice.

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