Granddaughter needs $ help for university

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leeks
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by leeks »

As others have mentioned, you will need to get the full picture of the college expenses and funding before you commit to anything. Loans are usually lined up before the start of the academic year so this does seem like an unexpected situation. And it seems unlikely to have only scholarship plus a loan that requires a cosigner. She should have some federal loans first that don't require a cosigner so you don't have the whole story. Could there be a situation where she gave some funds she received for living expenses to her mother and that is why she is looking to borrow more?

I would be cautious about the feelings of the sister who may feel stuck at home working to support her mother while her sister is off enjoying her freshman year in a nice program. If she is providing financial support (and possibly some caregiving) for her mother at age ~18, that can be a lot to handle. She may feel that she is putting her own future on hold (although work experience of any kind is valuable). There may be some way to help her now (reliable transportation - transit pass/bicycle/car, a ROTH IRA contribution in recognition of her hard work, a small vacation, etc) instead of or in addition to any college assistance in the future.

It seems you will need to communicate with all three to ensure any assistance you provide is understood and seen to be fair. Even if you could afford to help, it would be a valid choice to just provide emotional support and opt out of the financial situation completely. Sometimes well-meaning involvement can strain relationships. And if her college financing will not be sustainable for four years, helping out in the first year if you don't intend to do so later may just delay a necessary re-evaluation of the plan.
Litfury
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by Litfury »

There are a lot of red flags here. The timing of the request is also quite peculiar. A thought that keeps crossing my mind and hasn't been mentioned. Any chance the mother who you have mentioned is not good with money is behind this? It's quite reasonable based on the info given to assume there is more to this loan than we see on the surface
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cheese_breath
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by cheese_breath »

How come nobody mentioned part time job yet? (At least I didn't see anything.) Admittedly it's been many decades since I was in college, but my college employed many students in jobs on campus and also had links into the local community. I ended up helping a guy paint his house through a lead provided by the college.
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cheese_breath
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by cheese_breath »

Litfury wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:04 am There are a lot of red flags here. The timing of the request is also quite peculiar. A thought that keeps crossing my mind and hasn't been mentioned. Any chance the mother who you have mentioned is not good with money is behind this? It's quite reasonable based on the info given to assume there is more to this loan than we see on the surface
Keeping up with the social life in a 'high class' university can also be expensive. Maybe not $15K, but who knows?
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cheese_breath
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by cheese_breath »

Dottie57 wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:59 pm
AlphaLess wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:56 pm
Dottie57 wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:51 pm
AlphaLess wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:43 pm
Dottie57 wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:34 pm I can’t imagine paying that much for a degree in music / teaching. I would not do it.

Community college for 2 years then transfer to a state school.
OP might think that way, but for OP's granddaughter, that is a very tough pill to swallow.

With a mother who does not understand finances and living below means, this is going to be tough.

Also, FWIW, going to community college is not always the best option. It is a good, safe, financially conservative option, but not always the best one. Individual circumstances need to be considered.
Sometimes you can’t have the best. And you must admit that 65k is A LOT for a year in college.
If Harvard (or MIT, Stanford, Caltech, etc) was paying $55K for my kid to go there, and I would have to pitch in $10K (all per yea), and my kid was a star STEM student, it would be an ABSOLUTE BARGAIN.
But not amusic education. I would think of helping with Juliard, but not a Catholic College.

P.S. i am Catholic and nephew went to a good Catholic college in St Paul. But there were funds for it before he went.
Any good private school, whether Catholic or not is going to be costly.
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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by Earl Lemongrab »

Let's assume it's a college like Oberlin (as the OP hasn't identified it). According to this site:

https://www.oberlin.edu/admissions-and- ... n-and-fees

Tuition is about 54k, with about 16k for room/board/fees. So I'd guess that the scholarship is for tuition only. If these numbers are close to the OP's situation, then it would indeed be an ongoing 15k+ each year.

I agree that the granddaughter can't afford to go there unless she gets a job and works through school. That's not a terrible option, many have done it (including me for all three degrees that I got).

Unfortunately, a public university won't save much unless she can get scholarship money there as well. These are the numbers that should have been gone over last year before enrolling.
Irisheyes
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by Irisheyes »

FoolMeOnce wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:33 pm A lot of people seem to be making recommendations based on the retail price of the school. The retail price is irrelevant; the cost to the granddaughter is $15k/year, which is not an outrageous number.
Yes. 15K net to the daughter for one year of college seems like a fairly good deal. Congrats to her on the 50k in scholarships. I would be very happy if my daughter managed to snag that at a school she wanted to attend.

I would pay the 15k if you can afford it rather than cosign. Much better than getting your credit history mixed up with someone else's.
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mhadden1
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by mhadden1 »

whodidntante wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:17 pm Teach music? You don't need a quarter million dollar education to earn 40 grand a year.
So sad, but so true.

Even sadder - taking 15k or 30k or 45k in loans, and not getting a degree.
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Broken Man 1999
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

Based on your description of granddaughter, I would be in if I could afford the cost.

But, I would also be cautious about how you do it as you don't want to alienate your other granddaughter, it is possible she might need help also.

I will tell you this: I am doing what I can for my grandchildren, gladly. I did the same for my DDs as they were growing up. Mainly, I want to pay it forward, as my father's generosity assisted my family in many ways.

Wife and I are very fortunate when it comes to DDs and grandchildren.

I have no comment about the costs of the music program. One DD rode her viola to a scholarship at a small private university on Florida's east cost. She stayed at the university after she earned a music education degree to earn an MBA, the university didn't have a strong viola player so they offered to extend her scholarship.

So music education might not end up being her career focus, as it certainly wasn't DDs end game at all.

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Ben Mathew
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by Ben Mathew »

$15K per year for tuition+room+board is a great deal for college. Verify that the $50K the school is giving her is all scholarship and no loan. It seems very generous.

If you can afford to help your granddaughters with their college expense, I'd suggest that you meet with both granddaughters and discuss their college plans and how they plan to fund it. If you can contribute a total of $X towards both their college expenses, offer each granddaughter half that money, and send them a quarter of their share each of the four years that they are enrolled in college. So a gift of $20,000 becomes $10,000 per granddaughter, paid out $2,500 per year.

Also, if she is not dead set on the music major, I would steer her towards a major that has better career options.
Last edited by Ben Mathew on Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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greg24
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by greg24 »

whodidntante wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:17 pmTeach music? You don't need a quarter million dollar education to earn 40 grand a year.
She is getting a quarter million dollar education for $60k.

Pretty dang nice ROI.
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mhadden1
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by mhadden1 »

greg24 wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:28 pm
whodidntante wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:17 pmTeach music? You don't need a quarter million dollar education to earn 40 grand a year.
She is getting a quarter million dollar education for $60k.

Pretty dang nice ROI.
I would not encourage a student to take on 60k in loans to qualify for a 40k salary. I think the repayment is likely to be a giant financial strain, maybe impossible. Almost certainly there are less expensive ways.
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Louverture
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by Louverture »

After reading the responses, I'm not sure if people realize a certified K-12 music teacher makes the same salary as any other teacher. In some districts that is 30k. In others, it is 50k. This includes many lcol places, not just places where 50k is hard to live on.

For reference, the average starting salary for a Registered Nurse is ~66k. That is a twelve-month rather than a ten-month position. Meaning in the many places where teachers start at 50k, they make just a hair under a nurse's salary if they find summer work.

The opinion that teachers, nurses, etc. are not careers worth attending college for is probably unhelpful to the OP. I can't imagine she is going to sit her granddaughter down and tell her that.
Last edited by Louverture on Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Watty
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by Watty »

Louverture wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:46 pm After reading the responses, I'm not sure if people realize a certified K-12 music teacher makes the same salary as any other teacher. In some districts that is 30k. In others, it is 50k. This includes many lcol places, not just places where 50k is hard to live on.

For reference, the average starting salary for a Registered Nurse is ~66k. That is a twelve-month rather than a ten-month position. Meaning in many the many places where teachers start at 50k, they make just a hair under a nurse's salary if they find summer work.

The opinion that teachers, nurses, etc. are not careers worth attending college for is probably unhelpful to the OP. I can't imagine she is going to sit her granddaughter down and tell her that.
That is a good point, but many if not most people with music degrees are not certified to be teachers. At least around here K-12 schools have been cutting music programs too so actually finding a job as a music teacher will be very challenging.
inbox788
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by inbox788 »

fabdog wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:18 pm What type of school is she attending where the bill is $65K for the year? ($15K loan plus $50K scholarships?)

A state university depending on where you live would be much more affordable... maybe $25K total for a year?

If the issue is getting her a good education... there have to be more affordable choices

Mike
A state school costing $25k OOP may cost more than $15k loan at a private school.
In its most recent survey of college pricing, the College Board reports that a moderate college budget for an in-state public college for the 2017–2018 academic year averaged $25,290. A moderate budget at a private college averaged $50,900.
https://www.collegedata.com/cs/content/ ... leId=10064

This was lower than I had expected, and I'd like to see those below average cost private college budgets. At a UC, in-state students can expect $35k and out of state $65k, and I've seen many private universities higher.

$70,266!
https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/ ... ege/price/
Projected 4 Year Degree Price
4 Year Sticker Price
$281,064
Year 1 Year 2 Year 3 Year 4
All Residents $70,266 $72,317 $74,429 $76,601
I really don't like the idea of co-signing a loan. You're not only on the hook for the loan amount, but interest and fees, plus your credit report is at risk. My nightmare situation is not getting notified about a delinquency for a while, and hundreds of dollars are added in late fees and interest. And I only find out about it when I try to apply for a mortgage, and my credit report is dinged! Not to mention the financial information you're revealing to the student, lender and/or school. What information will be revealed to who? Income, assets, credit lines?

I've looked for alternatives, like guarantees instead of cosign, or posting a bond or collateral instead of cosigning, so I can limit my risks, but so far, have not found any.

I would consider putting $15k cash into an account (or a bit more into an investment account; securities backed lending) so it can be used to pay off the loan under default or certain situations, even say over a decade after graduation. A $15k gift today may solve the immediate problem, but may alter FAFSA for subsequent years. A loan guarantee, or $1,500/year after graduation to help pay back student loans probably doesn't.
DrakeSRT
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by DrakeSRT »

First question to Grandaughter "Is this an accredited school?

This sounds very much like the scholarship my niece got.
The $$ numbers are very close. She qualified for scholarship to a school in New York all but $15,000 worth.

When niece didn't keep going after 3 years she could Not transfer any credits because her school where she "got" a scholarship was non accredited.

My brother was on the hook for some loans he consigned for and his daughter, my niece is back in Arizona with no degree and no credits for classes taken.
PaleoWorx
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by PaleoWorx »

shunkman wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:55 pm It is my understanding that one should not need a cosigner for a legitimate student loan?
+1
my thoughts exactly
quick google search ...
* You don’t need a credit check or a cosigner to get most federal student loans.

source: https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/types/loans

if you are in a position to help, gift her the money.
cosigning is risky, and chances are you are going to have to pay it off later with fees, penalties and late charges.
Saving$
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by Saving$ »

1. She needs some guidance. Please take up this job... help her learn how to plan for her finances...
2. She should have done a FAFSA last year for this school year. If she did not, she will learn a hard lesson.
- a. help her negotiate with the school to keep her scholarship and put her attendance on hold for next semester so she can resume in the fall when she has financial aid
- b. If she did apply, you deserve to see the details of the award if she is asking you for help. This is will tell you ALOT. She probably got awarded something.
- c. Make sure she completes the FAFSA for next year, and once she completes it she needs to check back regularly because sometimes they ask for follow up info. This is HER responsibility.
3. Help her understand the gravity of loans. Many college kids just don't get it - they sign up for them and don't understand the impact.
4. First is scholarships, second is grants (does she qualify? See FAFSA above), third is her working for her spending money (summer and part time during school), fourth is student loans SHE takes out. $5k/year is not bad, but not ideal if she is going to be teaching music. She needs to understand what she is signing up for.
5. After all the above are exhausted, you may wish to help. If you think you will, start putting money in a 529 so you can at least get some tax benefit. Will you treat all the grandkids equally?
6. Do not cosign for a loan. Do everything you can to help her except this. Maybe even offer to let her live with you for free while she works, but don't sign for a loan. If that is the only way she can go to school she can't afford this school.
7. With $50k annually of scholarships (per year or over 4 years??), she should not need a $15k co-signed loan. Something is not right.
frugalprof
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by frugalprof »

If you have the money, offer half of the needed amount ($7500) and pay through a 529 account. Out of fairness to the twin, fund an additional $7500 in a separate 529 account. With a conservative allocation of bonds/stocks, that account should grow while the twin works. This will also be an incentive for the twin to get a college education, which on average has better lifetime returns despite the missed years of full time work.
eddot98
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by eddot98 »

Way back when I went to university, my scholarship amounts decreased every year I attended. I ended up taking out small loans the last few years. Granted, this was a looooog time ago and costs were ridiculously inexpensive.
Is the granddaughter’s scholarship amount fixed for future years? Does it depend on holding a certain GPA? As others have stated, I would need a lot more information before I committed to any of this college expense.
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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by Earl Lemongrab »

DrakeSRT wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:50 pm First question to Grandaughter "Is this an accredited school?

This sounds very much like the scholarship my niece got.
The $$ numbers are very close. She qualified for scholarship to a school in New York all but $15,000 worth.

When niece didn't keep going after 3 years she could Not transfer any credits because her school where she "got" a scholarship was non accredited.

My brother was on the hook for some loans he consigned for and his daughter, my niece is back in Arizona with no degree and no credits for classes taken.
Which school is this? Very few non-accredited schools give out scholarships. Those are usually just diploma mills with no real classes or anything.
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gunn_show
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by gunn_show »

Saving$ wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:46 pm 1. She needs some guidance. Please take up this job... help her learn how to plan for her finances...
2. She should have done a FAFSA last year for this school year. If she did not, she will learn a hard lesson.
- a. help her negotiate with the school to keep her scholarship and put her attendance on hold for next semester so she can resume in the fall when she has financial aid
- b. If she did apply, you deserve to see the details of the award if she is asking you for help. This is will tell you ALOT. She probably got awarded something.
- c. Make sure she completes the FAFSA for next year, and once she completes it she needs to check back regularly because sometimes they ask for follow up info. This is HER responsibility.
3. Help her understand the gravity of loans. Many college kids just don't get it - they sign up for them and don't understand the impact.
4. First is scholarships, second is grants (does she qualify? See FAFSA above), third is her working for her spending money (summer and part time during school), fourth is student loans SHE takes out. $5k/year is not bad, but not ideal if she is going to be teaching music. She needs to understand what she is signing up for.
5. After all the above are exhausted, you may wish to help. If you think you will, start putting money in a 529 so you can at least get some tax benefit. Will you treat all the grandkids equally?
6. Do not cosign for a loan. Do everything you can to help her except this. Maybe even offer to let her live with you for free while she works, but don't sign for a loan. If that is the only way she can go to school she can't afford this school.
7. With $50k annually of scholarships (per year or over 4 years??), she should not need a $15k co-signed loan. Something is not right.
This is all very well said. Grandpa / Grandma (OP did not identify) needs to really sit down with their child and granddaughter and a pen and pad and get the full, honest, TRANSPARENT, truth about the whole college plan. We are really going off shoestring info here - "GD called and wants money, don't even know name of school" ....

Only then can you, and only you, decide what you can afford and what a fair plan going forward is. Do not cosign.
whodidntante wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:17 pm Teach music? You don't need a quarter million dollar education to earn 40 grand a year.
Agree 100%. "hopes to teach music one day" does not lead one to a quarter million dollar education. Why this school? Why pay this much? These are details you need before you sink money into this pipe dream. At this cost, it may be out of state as well (?) which could mean a higher year 1 cost, but that drops after establishing residency. Something to ask.
OnTrack2020 wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:23 pm I do not understand this at all. It is mid-November with one month to go before Christmas break. How has your granddaughter made it this far along in the term without paying the college? Or did she have some money saved and was able to pay them?
Like many others, the timing of this request, in mid-Nov, makes this multiples more curious of a situation IMO, really peculiar ... I would really want to see official paperwork before making any decisions, if it were me, especially given the state of the single parent's finances.. not really passing the sniff test on the surface, but before you jump to assumptions, ask to see all her official loan/scholarship paperwork...

good luck. tough situation, but solvable with more information from g-daughter
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HereToLearn
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by HereToLearn »

Before you commit to signing for this first year, can you find out the requirements for retaining her scholarship? Is it a merit-based scholarship or is it financial aid? The latter is easier to ensure than the former, at least at some schools.

You might want to see if she can grant you permission to speak with someone in the financial aid office, so that you can learn the full picture. You would hate to co-sign for this year, only to learn that her obligation will be greater next year.

Also, some have said that student loans do not require anyone to co-sign. I thought that was only true for the guaranteed student loans: $5500 freshman, $6000 sophomore, $65000 junior & $7000 senior year.

Best of luck to you!
Pigeon
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by Pigeon »

Dottie57 wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:34 pm I can’t imagine paying that much for a degree in music / teaching. I would not do it.

Community college for 2 years then transfer to a state school.
This. Where she gets her degree will make zero difference in how much she makes if she's a public school music teacher. You get paid according to scale. It is pretty easy to figure out how much public school teachers make in your state. She cannot afford the school she is attending and she should get her degree in a much less costly manner. For music education, a good choice is community college and transfer to a state school is likely the best approach if she makes sure first that there is an articulation agreement between the CC and the state school such that all her credits will transfer seamlessly for the corresponding courses.

I don't think being a public school music teacher is a terrible career choice if you want to be involved in music, but she also needs to be aware that full time music teaching positions can be very, very hard to find, especially in a decent school district. There aren't many positions, people tend to stay forever, and arts programs are often the first thing to go in difficult financial times.

In fact, the state school route can be preferable if you want to go into teaching public school as the state schools will be very much on top of certification requirements and procedures for their state, and sometimes the private schools aren't as good at that.

I know you love her and want to help, but I would think long and hard about co-signing for this. It's only her freshman year and already she's in over her head financially. You have other grandchildren. Is it fair to do this for one and not the others?
NotWhoYouThink
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by NotWhoYouThink »

As mentioned by several others, what matters is the price she will have to pay for the degree, not the list price for the school. It doesn't matter whether the list price is $15K or $75K, it maters what her cost is.

So you need to do some research to find out what her real cost is, and what that cost is based on. Did she apply for financial aid? Did she get any? Is she taking out any federal loans? Does she qualify for work-study, and is she taking advantage of it? Did her mother apply for Parent Plus loans? Was she approved for any? Is the aid she did get grant aid that is based on her financial need? If so, will that aid be reduced if you contribute directly rather than co-signing loans? Is the aid merit aid that depends on your granddaughter maintaining a certain GPA? If so, how is that going? Does she need this extra $15K now, or is that what she needs to stay in school next semester?

There are probably other questions that will come up as you get more information. It's great that she feels she can come to you for help. Your task is to let her know you are there to help her, and the first help you will provide is helping her figure out the big picture so that all of you (you, your granddaughter and her mother) can come up with a plan that can lead to success.
westie
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by westie »

Just a reminder to middle aged adults co-signing for student loans. If you're left to pay federally insured student loans and don't pay them off, the Social Security Administration will deduct up to 15% of your SS monthly payment to recoup the dollars you didn't pay back.
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by stoptothink »

westie wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:38 pm Just a reminder to middle aged adults co-signing for student loans. If you're left to pay federally insured student loans and don't pay them off, the Social Security Administration will deduct up to 15% of your SS monthly payment to recoup the dollars you didn't pay back.
It is shocking how few people understand this. My in-laws refuse to accept it - they have 6-figures in debt from my FILs chirporactic school 25+ years ago and parent-plus loans from my sister-in-law's undergrad - and just think there will be no consequences to deferring paying on their debt.
ncbill
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by ncbill »

westie wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:38 pm Just a reminder to middle aged adults co-signing for student loans. If you're left to pay federally insured student loans and don't pay them off, the Social Security Administration will deduct up to 15% of your SS monthly payment to recoup the dollars you didn't pay back.
I worried about the above for an older relative (early 70s, took out loans w/o co-signer in their 50s) but it hasn't happened to them.

Although their income is so low (only SS retirement) they've been in deferral on their federal loans for some time now, which will be discharged on their death, likely only a few months from now (terminal cancer, now on Hospice.)
FireProof
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by FireProof »

I dunno why people think a music teacher is so poorly paid. They can charge $70-80/hour.
brandy
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by brandy »

ncbill wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:02 pm
westie wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:38 pm Just a reminder to middle aged adults co-signing for student loans. If you're left to pay federally insured student loans and don't pay them off, the Social Security Administration will deduct up to 15% of your SS monthly payment to recoup the dollars you didn't pay back.
Although their income is so low (only SS retirement) they've been in deferral on their federal loans for some time now, which will be discharged on their death, likely only a few months from now (terminal cancer, now on Hospice.)
Used to be that total, permanent disability of the co-signer would end the need for the co-signer to repay loans still outstanding. I think I said that correctly. Since your relative is in that situation, his representative should contact the loan office with that information.
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HomerJ
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by HomerJ »

FireProof wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:24 pm I dunno why people think a music teacher is so poorly paid. They can charge $70-80/hour.
How many hours a week?
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by jabberwockOG »

$15k per year for music degree is a lot. More importantly only about 36-40% of students starting college actually will graduate and earn a degree in four years. Many fail to ever graduate.

If you can afford the $60k you may elect to help her but you need to pay careful attention to her progress and work ethic. Given the cost I suggest you be VERY involved in monitoring her progress every single semester. She may not like that but you are paying the bill. Make sure establish goals and monitor as requirement - suggestion - maintain no less than 3.1 GPA each semester and that she carry a full load of classes (minimum of 15-17 hours) every semester that count towards graduation requirements.
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8foot7
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by 8foot7 »

Verify the scholarship lasts all four years, that she is doing well enough to continue to be eligible, and that she’s in track to graduate in four years. Then help out if you want. But 60k for a degree for a music teacher is ridiculous; the equivalent of driving a BMW 7 series as a asst manager at fast food place.
prairieman
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by prairieman »

If she indeed only pays (borrows) 15K per year, then she could pay 60k total off with a school teacher’s salary. She can also earn money with part time work during the school year, perhaps full time in summers (my kids did). I think if years 2-4 have similar expenses (big if), then it is a good deal.
I think if you are unwilling or unable to co-sign or pay 60k (4yrs) you can just tell her, but offer to pay some fraction each year. For example, tell her something like, “I’ll give you $5K/yr as long as you take a full load and maintain a 3.0 GPA.” She could earn the other $10K each year and not owe anything.
I’m a believer that she needs to have skin in the game and also know there are expectations.
Katietsu
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by Katietsu »

8foot7 wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:55 pm Verify the scholarship lasts all four years, that she is doing well enough to continue to be eligible, and that she’s in track to graduate in four years. Then help out if you want. But 60k for a degree for a music teacher is ridiculous; the equivalent of driving a BMW 7 series as a asst manager at fast food place.
Assume that the 60k is to cover living expenses and the scholarship covers tuition. This seems likely. So, $1250 a month for room, board, transportation, clothes, toiletries, medical care etc. It does not matter if you are getting a degree to be a music teacher or you are spending most of your day playing Fortnite, this is going to be the cost of living a mainstream life of an 18-22 year old in the US.

I really think some of this is about the lack of personal finance skills. I regularly see college students taking out private student loans and buying brand new cars. They truly feel that they are getting a great deal this way.
Maybe a loan or gift is needed to get past the next few months. But then employment and an adjustment in expenses can be used to avoid this situation in the future. Finances are not easy when you are 18 and your parents can not help.
IMhooked
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by IMhooked »

Find a cheaper school?

Is she currently working while going to school? She should be if she's a non-athlete.

If you have the money to loan her yourself, get a promissory note drafted and have her pay you back directly.

Co-signing in the first year is a temporary fix to a longer term problem. $15k x 4 = 60k in student loan debt. Can she get the same outcome (i.e. degree) for less at a different school. Is she in a degree field in which she's going to make at least 60k coming out (living off 30k and paying it off in 2 years max?) It all sounds like risk to me!

The scholarship amount relative to annual tuition is moot as an objective outsider and doesn't factor into the decision I'd make.

If it were me, I'd teach my granddaughter the larger lesson in that: No debt is good and the borrower is slave to the lender.


Best to you and your grandchildren moving forward!
longleaf
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by longleaf »

You should either gift her the money or refuse. Any loan will ruin the relationship.
Frugality, indexing, time.
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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by Earl Lemongrab »

Actually 15k-16k per year isn't bad for college these days. She could switch to a public university, but without a scholarship there it's not likely to save money. The time to evaluate all of that was when she was in high school, not freshman year.
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cheese_breath
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by cheese_breath »

Earl Lemongrab wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:35 pm...The time to evaluate all of that was when she was in high school, not freshman year.
Yes, but that time is past. This is a case of better late than never.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.
stoptothink
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by stoptothink »

HomerJ wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:35 pm
FireProof wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:24 pm I dunno why people think a music teacher is so poorly paid. They can charge $70-80/hour.
How many hours a week?
I know 3 people with PhDs in a music-related field, 2 with master's degrees, and 5 with undergrad degrees (4 of them are my cousins, all in the same family). Guess how many of them work in any capacity with music? 1. The 3 PhDs all are former public school music teachers who were laid off and 2 of them have not worked in any capacity in several years, the 2 with master's degrees both work with my wife and neither has ever done anything with music, and one of the one's with an undergrad teaches violin lessons out of her home. Like anything, if you are an expert there is a possibility of making good money, but a degree in music has to have the lowest chance of any ROI of any field you can study at the university level.

The job prospects for someone trying to teach music are slim, unless they plan on teaching lessons from home.
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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by Earl Lemongrab »

cheese_breath wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:39 pm
Earl Lemongrab wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:35 pm...The time to evaluate all of that was when she was in high school, not freshman year.
Yes, but that time is past. This is a case of better late than never.
That's what I'm saying. Switching schools might not help much if any. She could punt, quit now and reapply next summer, trying to get a scholarship at a more reasonable school. Preferably after working for several months. Or figure out a way to make 15k a year work.
sport
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by sport »

stoptothink wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:45 pm
HomerJ wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:35 pm
FireProof wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:24 pm I dunno why people think a music teacher is so poorly paid. They can charge $70-80/hour.
How many hours a week?
I know 3 people with PhDs in a music-related field, 2 with master's degrees, and 5 with undergrad degrees (4 of them are my cousins, all in the same family). Guess how many of them work in any capacity with music? 1. The 3 PhDs all are former public school music teachers who were laid off and 2 of them have not worked in any capacity in several years, the 2 with master's degrees both work with my wife and neither has ever done anything with music, and one of the one's with an undergrad teaches violin lessons out of her home. Like anything, if you are an expert there is a possibility of making good money, but a degree in music has to have the lowest chance of any ROI of any field you can study at the university level.

The job prospects for someone trying to teach music are slim, unless they plan on teaching lessons from home.
When I was in high school we had an excellent program in instrumental music. Many of the students were taking private music lessons. We had a number of student musicians who were sufficiently talented to consider a career in music. When our director was asked about music as a vocation, his advice was "If there is a choice between music and anything else, choose the anything else. If the choice is music or nothing else, then choose music." This was a long time ago, and I believe his advice is still valid.
WWJBDo
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by WWJBDo »

Wow, a lot of suggestions and many open questions so far, to which I will add my questions and comments.
-$65k is a pretty typical private college cost. $50k in grants is fantastic. It's a good deal if it is Oberlin or another well-regarded school. However, there are a *lot* of 2nd or 3rd tier christian schools that will happily take your money but not give your grandchild a good basis to succeed.
-The question is more than just this year's $15k. If your grandchild doesn't graduate, attending college but not graduating is barely worth more than a high school education. So can you afford to repeat for 4 years?
-In any case, you should have a conference call or meeting with the student and the financial aid counselor, for a few reasons:
1. To understand the current situation, the current needs and future anticipated needs.
2. To assure yourself that you understand the situation and everything is legitimate.
3. It helps the counselor to know that another family member is interested in the student's success.
If the mom or your grandchild don't want you talking to the financial counselor, then something is amiss and you should not offer loans or gifts.
-If you can afford it, giving the money instead of cosigning a loan puts your granddaughter in a much better trajectory for her future. You can hold it and tell her it will be there for her ONLY when she graduates and it is her graduation gift. As others had stated, it is usually possible fro students to get loans without a co-signer. Again, that is a question for the financial aid counselor.
-Requiring a co-signer may be an indication that the school is not very viable or reputable. Here is a link to the financial viability of colleges from Forbes in 2017.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2 ... f01a7d7d68
Go back to basics- find out what the situation is from a school financial counselor, evaluate the school (better late than never for that) and pay off the loans as a graduation gift if you can afford it.
Good luck!
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair
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MossySF
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by MossySF »

This is a tough one ...

... see music is an aspirational career and going to a cheaper public/state/community college drops your chances by a lot.

Yes, your chances aren't that great anyways as performing arts is a pinched top-down pyramid just like professional sports ...

... but what if you are in that 1% where a great music school will help you ... but you're not good enough to be in the 0.25% where you can make it regardless of your resume?

You might say to switch to a different career ...

... but this might what you're good at.

It is a lot of money though if you're not a multi-millionaire. You can say here's $X for this year (and $X for your sister) but next year may not be possible ... so you gotta plan right now to figure out how to reduce the gap yourself.
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Random Musings
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by Random Musings »

If grades are met, is the $50K scholarship good for all four years or do some of them fade out? What about future tuition hikes? Plus all of the other costs if they want to have a little fun?

RM
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MathWizard
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by MathWizard »

Let's assume that the scholarship really is 50K per year for 4 years. You should not do this unless you are prepared to pay 15K per year + tuition inflation for 4 years plus doing the same for the twin sister, and potentially other grandkids.

Assuming you have so much money that this is not a problem, consider this a gift as part of your estate planning. You could do at least part of this as a 529 and you can get tax deferred growth and maybe a state deduction. Keep the 529 in your name and it does not affect financial aid since you are not the parent.

If she is a dependent, The AO tax credit would give you back 2500 a year for up to 4 years, or only 1K if you owed no tax.
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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by Earl Lemongrab »

I'm not too onboard with the "gift" crowd. If it's 60k over four years, and similar to the sister (not clear if other grandkids are in the picture) taking 120k out of retirement savings in a short period near the beginning is a huge nut that should be strongly thought out. That could wreck a retirement plan.
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8foot7
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by 8foot7 »

Katietsu wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:47 pm
8foot7 wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:55 pm Verify the scholarship lasts all four years, that she is doing well enough to continue to be eligible, and that she’s in track to graduate in four years. Then help out if you want. But 60k for a degree for a music teacher is ridiculous; the equivalent of driving a BMW 7 series as a asst manager at fast food place.
Assume that the 60k is to cover living expenses and the scholarship covers tuition. This seems likely. So, $1250 a month for room, board, transportation, clothes, toiletries, medical care etc. It does not matter if you are getting a degree to be a music teacher or you are spending most of your day playing Fortnite, this is going to be the cost of living a mainstream life of an 18-22 year old in the US.

I really think some of this is about the lack of personal finance skills. I regularly see college students taking out private student loans and buying brand new cars. They truly feel that they are getting a great deal this way.
Maybe a loan or gift is needed to get past the next few months. But then employment and an adjustment in expenses can be used to avoid this situation in the future. Finances are not easy when you are 18 and your parents can not help.
Sorry, that's crazy. An 18 year old whose only responsibility is college does not have a $1,250 nut to cover every month for twelve months. Get roommate. Get job. Live on campus. Take a bus. Eat ramen. Come on. Maybe half that.

I graduated in 2004 and paid $400/mo (utils included) to rent a house with three other guys. $100 in groceries, $50-75 in gas maybe. I had a crappy old Volvo my parents gave me and I rode the university bus to and from campus. I also had an on-campus job for $13/hour, 20 hours a week that covered that very low monthly nut. The price of tuition has skyrocketed but the price of living like you're broke has not risen the same way.

(Caveat that if this is one of those crazy colleges that makes you live on campus and then charges you an arm and a leg for room and board, then maybe so, but I'd consider that part of tuition then if you don't have a choice, which brings me back to the consider-a-cheaper-college thing.)

I'm not giving (and certainly not loaning) a granddaughter $1,250/mo to cover only living expenses, period. I'd be giving her a crappy old Volvo and maybe a few grocery gift cards and letting her know she can come for a hot meal anytime.
Pigeon
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by Pigeon »

MossySF wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:08 pm This is a tough one ...

... see music is an aspirational career and going to a cheaper public/state/community college drops your chances by a lot.

This is not necessarily the case at all if you wish to be a public school music teacher. We live in one of the best public school districts in the country for music education. The overwhelming majority of teachers are graduates of the state university system. I have a friend who is the district music supervisor for different large, public district and the same is true there. The goal of these programs is to produced excellent, qualified, credentialed teachers, rather than performance artists. It's a different skill set, with some overlap.

If you want to be a performance artist, by all means, think about a conservatory.
Radjob4me
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Re: Granddaughter needs $ help for university

Post by Radjob4me »

I think the most important thing is whether the 50k is entirely scholarship and it is good for all four years - i.e. 200k total. If it is for all four years, that is great! But there are usually grade/GPA requirements. 50k is all well and good until it goes away or is reduced in the subsequent years. I would hate for her to suddenly be on the hook for 40k instead of 15k in her junior year...

I would just hope the OP spends some time with the granddaughter - either in person at the school or perhaps on a conference call with the financial aid/bursar office at the school if the mother is not much help.

I know people on here are overly practical, but if this is really 60k total for 4 years, and it is a school that the child enjoys and is happy at, then that is a great deal no matter what they study. In MA, two years of community college then to flagship state school would be more than 60k. Even some community colleges run at least 10k per year now.
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