Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

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tm3
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by tm3 »

EnjoyIt wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:18 am I hope during that time either Tesla becomes the reliable car manufacturer it aims to be

I want Tesla to succeed. I want them to become more reliable. I want their batteries to last longer and cheaper to produce.

Luckily I do not need a new car today because I would prefer to allow Tesla more time to keep improving or another manufacturer to catch up and be better.
Well said. Perhaps unfortunately I'm in the market now, and the big strike against Tesla is the reliability. I don't know if I'll be able to rationalize my way around that hurdle, but given my recent horrible experience with Toyota (now irretrievably fallen from Mount Olympus) there is a chance.
sk2101
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by sk2101 »

wrongfunds wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:35 pm I wish I could find the link but just imagine having to put little gas in your cellphone or having to pull a cord to start the tiny gasoline engine on your Cuisinart blender! There *really* are (were?) those tiny engines in RC flying hobby arena where one used tiny dropper to fill them up.
This was actually a thing back in the early 2000s when fuel cells were all the rave. I remember some prototypes of fuel cell powered phones, where one would need to fill up from time to time. Here is one story:

https://www.geek.com/mobile/motorola-an ... es-546797/
wrongfunds
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by wrongfunds »

Found it; Worth watching; it is only 1 minute long

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn__9hLJKAk
marc in merrimack
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by marc in merrimack »

Big Dog wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:22 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:11 pm
btenny wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:01 pm Do people who have two Teslas have two chargers in their garage? Does the house have to be updated with a special electric panel to support two Tesla home chargers?
We don’t have 2 Teslas (yet), but except in rare circumstances, I wouldn’t expect to have to charge daily, so I think my wife and I could just agree that she charges on odd days and I do so on even days.

We used our existing garage panel, but we have a lot of electricity (400A service) at our house. I guess whether or not you need an electric panel upgrade depends on your personal circumstances (ETA: service and desired charging amperage), but there isn’t a “special” one.
We also have two Teslas, and share the charger, as daily driving is short so no need to charge every day. To answer Benny's question more fully, one could always hook up to Tesla Wall Chargers in tandem and they will share one electrical line (preferably 240v), and charge one car at a time.

fwiw: our house only had a 100 amp box, so we had an electrician install a sub-panel and separate 60 amp line into the garage for EV charging. It's a simple job for any licensed electrician.
Level 2 charging current is no more than 40A. Electrician has already stated to me that, depending on other load requirements, 100A service can be entirely adequate.
TheCowbell
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TheCowbell »

marcwd wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:03 pm
Big Dog wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:22 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:11 pm
btenny wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:01 pm Do people who have two Teslas have two chargers in their garage? Does the house have to be updated with a special electric panel to support two Tesla home chargers?
We don’t have 2 Teslas (yet), but except in rare circumstances, I wouldn’t expect to have to charge daily, so I think my wife and I could just agree that she charges on odd days and I do so on even days.

We used our existing garage panel, but we have a lot of electricity (400A service) at our house. I guess whether or not you need an electric panel upgrade depends on your personal circumstances (ETA: service and desired charging amperage), but there isn’t a “special” one.
We also have two Teslas, and share the charger, as daily driving is short so no need to charge every day. To answer Benny's question more fully, one could always hook up to Tesla Wall Chargers in tandem and they will share one electrical line (preferably 240v), and charge one car at a time.

fwiw: our house only had a 100 amp box, so we had an electrician install a sub-panel and separate 60 amp line into the garage for EV charging. It's a simple job for any licensed electrician.
Level 2 charging current is no more than 40A. Electrician has already stated to me that, depending on other load requirements, 100A service can be entirely adequate.
Not quite true, it depends on the car. My 3 uses a 60A circuit (48A continuous) and I believe you can get up to 80A in S/X.

Anyways, you can also dial down the amps as appropriate. A 20A 240v charge will fill you up nightly, it's just a question of whether you need faster charging which the vast majority wouldn't...
SpaghettiMonster
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by SpaghettiMonster »

TheCowbell wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:03 pm
SpaghettiMonster wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:55 pm I wonder how that works from the eyes of a criminal or a beggar. If you’re getting gas, I have about 2 minutes to hit you up for money. If you’re at a charger, I have 20-30 minutes to size you up and work you over.
You typically aren't standing at 'the nozzle' when at a supercharger, you're in your car watching a movie or running to a restroom, etc.

Also, I've visited a charger exactly twice in 18 months. Unless you're driving 300mi+ regularly, that'll be most people.
But is doesn’t have to be “you.” Whenever I pass by a Supercharger, there is “someone” there. In your car for 30 min? No problem, I can just hang out all day being shady. Going to the restaurant? I know that your car will be unattended for 30 min.
Big Dog
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Big Dog »

marcwd wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:03 pm
Big Dog wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:22 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:11 pm
btenny wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:01 pm Do people who have two Teslas have two chargers in their garage? Does the house have to be updated with a special electric panel to support two Tesla home chargers?
We don’t have 2 Teslas (yet), but except in rare circumstances, I wouldn’t expect to have to charge daily, so I think my wife and I could just agree that she charges on odd days and I do so on even days.

We used our existing garage panel, but we have a lot of electricity (400A service) at our house. I guess whether or not you need an electric panel upgrade depends on your personal circumstances (ETA: service and desired charging amperage), but there isn’t a “special” one.
We also have two Teslas, and share the charger, as daily driving is short so no need to charge every day. To answer Benny's question more fully, one could always hook up to Tesla Wall Chargers in tandem and they will share one electrical line (preferably 240v), and charge one car at a time.

fwiw: our house only had a 100 amp box, so we had an electrician install a sub-panel and separate 60 amp line into the garage for EV charging. It's a simple job for any licensed electrician.
Level 2 charging current is no more than 40A. Electrician has already stated to me that, depending on other load requirements, 100A service can be entirely adequate.
The model 3-LR can charge up to 48 amps which requires a 60 amp circuit for max speed. (now, most folks don't need max charge speed overnight, but if the electrician is coming out to lay wire, might as well install a slightly thicker cable if possible, since the labor costs is fixed.)
TheCowbell
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TheCowbell »

SpaghettiMonster wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:10 pm
TheCowbell wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:03 pm
SpaghettiMonster wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:55 pm I wonder how that works from the eyes of a criminal or a beggar. If you’re getting gas, I have about 2 minutes to hit you up for money. If you’re at a charger, I have 20-30 minutes to size you up and work you over.
You typically aren't standing at 'the nozzle' when at a supercharger, you're in your car watching a movie or running to a restroom, etc.

Also, I've visited a charger exactly twice in 18 months. Unless you're driving 300mi+ regularly, that'll be most people.
But is doesn’t have to be “you.” Whenever I pass by a Supercharger, there is “someone” there. In your car for 30 min? No problem, I can just hang out all day being shady. Going to the restaurant? I know that your car will be unattended for 30 min.
I can only speak for myself. I know plenty of people have unlimited SC so they may be taking advantage, or travelers. I'd wager it's a fraction of the number of people that visit gas pumps (1:1 EV:ice assumed of course) because mile for mile ice drivers *have* to go to the pump. I don't!

I am getting the impression you're reaching a little - wouldn't any restaurant parking lot have the same potential for nefarious activity?
harikaried
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by harikaried »

Big Dog wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:22 pm
marcwd wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:03 pmLevel 2 charging current is no more than 40A.
The model 3-LR can charge up to 48 amps which requires a 60 amp circuit for max speed.
I believe the confusion here is that the "dedicated" Tesla Wall Connector can charge up to 48A requiring 60A circuit (limited to 80% of max) while the original "generic" Mobile Connector using a regular 14-50 outlet on a 50A circuit can charge up to 40A (again limited to 80% of max). However, the Mobile Connector currently available is "gen 2" which additionally is designed to limit itself to 32A charging even on a 50A circuit.

We have a Gen 2 Mobile Connector plugged into a 14-50, so we charge about 30 miles per hour for our Model 3. The current plan is when we also have a Model Y, we'll just share the charger as each vehicle normally drives 30 miles each day anyway, and with both rated for 300+ miles, there isn't a need to "fully charge" every night.
marc in merrimack
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by marc in merrimack »

harikaried wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:43 pm
Big Dog wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:22 pm
marcwd wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:03 pmLevel 2 charging current is no more than 40A.
The model 3-LR can charge up to 48 amps which requires a 60 amp circuit for max speed.
I believe the confusion here is that the "dedicated" Tesla Wall Connector can charge up to 48A requiring 60A circuit (limited to 80% of max) while the original "generic" Mobile Connector using a regular 14-50 outlet on a 50A circuit can charge up to 40A (again limited to 80% of max). However, the Mobile Connector currently available is "gen 2" which additionally is designed to limit itself to 32A charging even on a 50A circuit.

We have a Gen 2 Mobile Connector plugged into a 14-50, so we charge about 30 miles per hour for our Model 3. The current plan is when we also have a Model Y, we'll just share the charger as each vehicle normally drives 30 miles each day anyway, and with both rated for 300+ miles, there isn't a need to "fully charge" every night.
My statement was incorrect. The Level 2 charging specified maximum is 19.2kW or 80A at 240V. Actual maximum charge current will be car and charger dependent.
UnclePennybags
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by UnclePennybags »

marcwd wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:08 pm
harikaried wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:43 pm
Big Dog wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:22 pm
marcwd wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:03 pmLevel 2 charging current is no more than 40A.
The model 3-LR can charge up to 48 amps which requires a 60 amp circuit for max speed.
I believe the confusion here is that the "dedicated" Tesla Wall Connector can charge up to 48A requiring 60A circuit (limited to 80% of max) while the original "generic" Mobile Connector using a regular 14-50 outlet on a 50A circuit can charge up to 40A (again limited to 80% of max). However, the Mobile Connector currently available is "gen 2" which additionally is designed to limit itself to 32A charging even on a 50A circuit.

We have a Gen 2 Mobile Connector plugged into a 14-50, so we charge about 30 miles per hour for our Model 3. The current plan is when we also have a Model Y, we'll just share the charger as each vehicle normally drives 30 miles each day anyway, and with both rated for 300+ miles, there isn't a need to "fully charge" every night.
My statement was incorrect. The Level 2 charging specified maximum is 19.2kW or 80A at 240V. Actual maximum charge current will be car and charger dependent.
I have an 80A wall charger which required a 100A circuit and "dual chargers" as an option on my model S. I believe it is relatively uncommon to find dual chargers on the Model S/X and impossible to do on the Model 3. To further complicate matters, Level 2 charging is only limited to 19.2kw when using AC power. DC based level 2 chargers are capable of 90kw (up to 200a at from 200-450v). However, I think this is a mostly theoretical discussion, since I've never actually encountered a level 2 charger in the real world that delivered that kind of current, even with the CHAdeMO adapter that I never should have bought.
Topic Author
investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 »

wrongfunds wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:35 pm I wish I could find the link but just imagine having to put little gas in your cellphone or having to pull a cord to start the tiny gasoline engine on your Cuisinart blender! There *really* are (were?) those tiny engines in RC flying hobby arena where one used tiny dropper to fill them up.
Gas powered blenders are an actual thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmzgmOv0qoM

A friend of mine had one and it was a riot to use out on the Sandbar just upstream of Lake Havasu!
Topic Author
investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 »

harikaried wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:43 pm
Big Dog wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:22 pm
marcwd wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:03 pmLevel 2 charging current is no more than 40A.
The model 3-LR can charge up to 48 amps which requires a 60 amp circuit for max speed.
I believe the confusion here is that the "dedicated" Tesla Wall Connector can charge up to 48A requiring 60A circuit (limited to 80% of max) while the original "generic" Mobile Connector using a regular 14-50 outlet on a 50A circuit can charge up to 40A (again limited to 80% of max). However, the Mobile Connector currently available is "gen 2" which additionally is designed to limit itself to 32A charging even on a 50A circuit.

We have a Gen 2 Mobile Connector plugged into a 14-50, so we charge about 30 miles per hour for our Model 3. The current plan is when we also have a Model Y, we'll just share the charger as each vehicle normally drives 30 miles each day anyway, and with both rated for 300+ miles, there isn't a need to "fully charge" every night.
Nothing wrong with this approach.

BTW, Tesla Wall Connectors can be connected together via RS-485 data link and can be made to intelligently share a single circuit. For example, you could put two TWCs on a single 60A breaker. If only one car is charging then it will take all 48A available. If the second car gets plugged in, the two chargers will drop the current down to 24A apiece.

There's also a brand spanking new TWC available with built-in Wi-Fi but I'm not sure if it can daisy chain like the older one.
researcher
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by researcher »

I just came across this article comparing the range of the the Porsche Taycan vs. Tesla Model S...
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a3 ... a-model-s/

Some interesting findings related to the Model 3...
- The first Model 3, a rear-drive Long Range, got 200 miles versus its 310-mile EPA figure at the time.
- That means at a steady 75 mph, the 100D achieved 81 percent of its EPA range, and the Model 3, 65 percent, while the figure for this latest Model S is 68 percent.
- Of course, total range figures for electrics are always slightly fuzzy because an EV can't run at highway speed all the way down to a zero state of charge. Along the way, it will go into a limp mode and limit speed in an attempt to delay your point of strandedness.


So if you plan to take your Model 3 on a road trip, you will get less than two-thirds of the claimed range!!!
According to Car & Driver testing, that 310-mile range will only get you ~170 miles in the real world.
harikaried
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by harikaried »

Anyone know what Consumer Reports is talking about for "Long Range mode" for a Model 3?

Tesla Ups Ante on Model Y Range, Underscoring Its EV Lead: Tesla is facing increasing competition, but its batteries and superior energy efficiency give it an edge
https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids ... g-ev-lead/
At CR, we’ve found that our range testing has matched the EPA’s testing within single-digit percentage points. Our tested Tesla Model 3 matched the 310 mile range the EPA had pegged it at, and in Long Range mode we achieved 350 miles.
There is a "Long Range" Model 3, but that's currently rated 322 miles. And I believe the Model S has a "Range Mode" to turn off the battery heater, but the currently rated 390 miles is without that setting.
rj342
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by rj342 »

I would never have a pure EV as my only car here in hurricane country on the Gulf Coast (or anywhere else w similar local grid down possibilities).
pennylane
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by pennylane »

Buy it. 16k miles into it, never had to visit the dealership once.
TheCowbell
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TheCowbell »

22k miles, not a single issue.

No idea what long range mode is. No such setting in the 3 that I'm aware of.
marc in merrimack
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by marc in merrimack »

pennylane wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:17 pm Buy it. 16k miles into it, never had to visit the dealership once.
I’d expect that with any new car at 16k miles.
pennylane
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by pennylane »

marcwd wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:27 pm
pennylane wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:17 pm Buy it. 16k miles into it, never had to visit the dealership once.
I’d expect that with any new car at 16k miles.
New cars need an oil change at 5K - 1st visit

10k service - 2nd visit

20k service

Assuming nothing comes up within 15k miles
marc in merrimack
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by marc in merrimack »

pennylane wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:11 pm
marcwd wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:27 pm
pennylane wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:17 pm Buy it. 16k miles into it, never had to visit the dealership once.
I’d expect that with any new car at 16k miles.
New cars need an oil change at 5K - 1st visit

10k service - 2nd visit

20k service

Assuming nothing comes up within 15k miles
Ok, fair enough. I was referring to unanticipated repair issues.
Bruse213
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Bruse213 »

TheCowbell wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:24 pm 22k miles, not a single issue.

No idea what long range mode is. No such setting in the 3 that I'm aware of.
I believe long range mode is in the Model S and maybe the X. Similar to hitting the “economy” button in a normal car it puts the acceleration into chill mode, etc. The model 3 doesn’t have long range mode.
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investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 »

OP here. Thought I'd post another update. It's been ~26 months since I bought my Model 3.

Miles have been accumulating more slowly over the past year due to the pandemic but I do get the car out on the road on occasion. Some points worth mentioning:

The rear tires wear out more quickly than the fronts (lots of torque!). It's important to rotate them regularly.

The regularly-scheduled software updates still keep coming, though the novelty of farting sounds and video games have worn off. They recently rolled out an update that reconfigured the GUI on the display, mainly to make more room for the Full Self Driving visualizations. Since my car doesn't have that option and since I don't plan on purchasing it, I don't view this particular update as a positive.

I had an issue a couple months ago; Warnings appeared on the screen about reduced power. I scheduled an appointment (via the app) at a nearby service center. They replaced the high voltage battery charging contactors under warranty. It's been the only technical glitch thus far. The service center experience was positive. They paid for my Uber ride to and from (which, admittedly, was a little weird for me as it was the first time I used Uber during the pandemic).

I noted last year that the battery degraded a bit over the first year (factory rated range = 310mi, current 100% charge = 290mi). The good news is the degradation seems to have stopped. The 100% range I get today is about the same as it was a year ago.

Back when I bought the car, Tesla ran a referral bonus promotion that awarded a free, 1-week rental of a Model S or Model X to anyone who referred three buyers. Well, it took nearly two years but Tesla finally made good on that promise and I was able to borrow a brand new Model S Performance (with Ludicrous mode). I put 1K miles on it. It gave me a good opportunity to compare my lowly Model 3 to Tesla's flagship. I'm biased, but I prefer the way the lighter/more nimble Model 3 drives and handles compared to the S. You can also tell that the S was an older design; there are some significant differences in the primary controls, but I will say the Model S is a better road trip car. It's more spacious, it's quieter (more insulation) and it has a LOT more range; 350 miles @ 90%.

All in all, I'm extremely satisfied with the car. I still get excited every time I get behind the wheel, and my S.O.'s 2018 Audi Q5 still feels archaic by comparison.
DNK
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by DNK »

It's great to see this thread develop for long term ownership feedback. Especially this quote:
investor997 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:04 pm All in all, I'm extremely satisfied with the car. I still get excited every time I get behind the wheel, and my S.O.'s 2018 Audi Q5 still feels archaic by comparison.
I am looking forward to the purchase in a few years. :D

Keep the posts "periodically" coming!
tdmp
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by tdmp »

investor997 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:04 pm OP here. Thought I'd post another update. It's been ~26 months since I bought my Model 3.

Miles have been accumulating more slowly over the past year due to the pandemic but I do get the car out on the road on occasion. Some points worth mentioning:

The rear tires wear out more quickly than the fronts (lots of torque!). It's important to rotate them regularly.


How many miles do you have on the car? And have you had to change the tires yet?
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investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 »

tdmp wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:47 pm How many miles do you have on the car? And have you had to change the tires yet?
About 19K. Still on original tires. If hadn't rotated them, the rears would have worn much more quickly than the fronts and they'd be at the wear bars by now.
TheCowbell
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TheCowbell »

tdmp wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:47 pm
investor997 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:04 pm OP here. Thought I'd post another update. It's been ~26 months since I bought my Model 3.

Miles have been accumulating more slowly over the past year due to the pandemic but I do get the car out on the road on occasion. Some points worth mentioning:

The rear tires wear out more quickly than the fronts (lots of torque!). It's important to rotate them regularly.


How many miles do you have on the car? And have you had to change the tires yet?
I had to get new tires after 11k miles.

But, I had a big grin on my face that whole 11k. No regrets. Second set is lasting much longer as I've calmed down somewhat.
benderbr
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by benderbr »

TheCowbell wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:42 am
I had to get new tires after 11k miles.

But, I had a big grin on my face that whole 11k. No regrets. Second set is lasting much longer as I've calmed down somewhat.
Wow - performance model? We should have a 'tire saving mode' that moderates the acceleration from a stop.
tm3
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by tm3 »

Nice update. Thanks!
TheCowbell
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TheCowbell »

benderbr wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:54 am
TheCowbell wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:42 am
I had to get new tires after 11k miles.

But, I had a big grin on my face that whole 11k. No regrets. Second set is lasting much longer as I've calmed down somewhat.
Wow - performance model? We should have a 'tire saving mode' that moderates the acceleration from a stop.
No, LR AWD. There is that mode, it's 'chill-mode' in driver settings.

It's funny, I have the 'non-performance' model that does 0-60 in a hair over 4 seconds. I didn't get the P because I was afraid I'd kill myself.

At low speeds the P & non-P have similar torque off the line, and what really kills you are the launches (it's hard not to in those first few K miles) and even more so when you take turns aggressively. The stock tires were quite sticky and with the heavy but extremely low center of gravity of these cars it's a surreal experience taking a bend at speed. Do that a couple hundred times and it's time for new tires!
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investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 »

TheCowbell wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:33 amAt low speeds the P & non-P have similar torque off the line
It's actually the opposite of that. The Performance models are WAY faster off the line than the non-P LR AWD. The P models provide max torque from a standstill but Tesla limits the torque output of the non-P. The torque curves start to equal each other as speeds rise. The P model won't pull away as fast when punching it from highway speeds.

Us non-P LR AWD owners can pay $2,000 for the Speed Boost in the app any time we want. That bridges the gap.

Here's a pretty good dyno chart comparison showing non-P, non-P + Speed Boost and P:
https://imgur.com/a/s87VuMS#HXvhWVx
Topic Author
investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 »

OP here. Thought I'd resurrect my thread to post a 3 year ownership update. Hard to believe it's been that long. I have about 21,000 miles on the car. Mileage accumulation is still not nearly what it was prior to the pandemic.

Battery degradation: As of today, the car reports 270mi of range at 100% charge. This is 40mi less (~13%) than the 310mi rated range when the car was new.

Issues: A few things have come up: 1) The 12V battery died. This seems to be a fairly common issue. Tesla's mobile service replaced it under warranty at no cost. 2) The HVAC vents have no manual controls. You control where the air comes out via sliding your finger around on the GUI and electric motors move the air vents. One of these motors have gone bonkers. I have an appointment scheduled to look at this. 3) I frequently fold down the rear seatbacks so I can carry a bike. Over time, one of the seatback latches has started to rattle like crazy when the rear seats are upright. In fact, the car has a decent amount of squeaks and rattles overall, but most of the time I never hear them because the Premium Audio system is phenomenal (best factory audio of any car I've ever owned).

I'm still on the original tires. I may have mentioned in an earlier update that it's important to rotate them regularly. The rears wear faster than the fronts.

I wish I wouldn't have spent the money on Enhanced Autopilot (EAP is no longer an option; all Teslas now come with standard AP, with the $10K FSD being the only upgrade offered). Although AP works fairly well, it still suffers from "phantom braking". It's well documented on forums. Basically, you can cruise along at 70-80 with AP enabled and, with zero warning, the car will slam on the brakes, even with light traffic. It seems to be confused by freeway overpasses but nobody really knows for certain. Despite all the software updates, it's never been fixed. At this point I don't think it ever will be. The other "Enhanced" AP features such as autopark, summon, auto lane change and Navigate on AP are party tricks at best and have little real world value. Autopark should be called "curb rash mode". The last time I tried it - because I wanted to, not because I'm not a competent parallel parker - resulted in one of my wheels getting rashed. Never again.

Otherwise I'm still really happy with the car and I would definitely buy it again. Even to this day, it really has no direct competition. The acceleration is still awesome and NEVER gets old. The inside of the wheels still have almost zero accumulated brake dust thanks to regen - they're almost spotless. And I can't help but get a fantastic feeling of smugness every time I drive by the nearby Costco gas station watching everyone queue up for 20 minutes because their only other choice is the nearby Chevron at $5/gallon.

It's pretty clear by now Tesla is here for the long run and the ongoing demand for the 3 and Y speaks for itself. Hopefully other car manufacturers will expedite the development of similar EVs.

One last thing: In my original post, I mentioned "my situation" of having roughly $1M in invested assets. Some commented buying the Tesla was no big deal while others said "No way, you shouldn't buy a car this expensive" - this is Bogleheads, after all. Three years later, my portfolio is almost exactly double what it was when I bought this car, mainly a result of ongoing Boglehead-style investing, increases in income and of course, the continued gains of the stock market.
Last edited by investor997 on Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cflannagan
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by cflannagan »

investor997 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:10 pm It's well documented on forums. Basically, you can cruise along at 70-80 with AP enabled and, with zero warning, the car will slam on the brakes, even with light traffic. It seems to be confused by freeway overpasses but nobody really knows for certain. Despite all the software updates, it's never been fixed. At this point I don't think it ever will be.
To your knowledge (I don't follow Teslas much in general, am just a software engineer here), have anyone at Telsa been able to reproduce this issue? Would be even crazier if someone at Telsa managed to reproduce the issue, have that event recorded, look at the logs, and still don't know what went wrong. If that's the case (and not the case where nobody at Telsa has reproduced the issue under their watch), then that's worrying that they have everything they need (data, logs) but don't know how to solve the issue. Or maybe it could be they ID'd the issue, they just aren't sure how to best fix the issue yet?
Normchad
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Normchad »

cflannagan wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:18 pm
investor997 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:10 pm It's well documented on forums. Basically, you can cruise along at 70-80 with AP enabled and, with zero warning, the car will slam on the brakes, even with light traffic. It seems to be confused by freeway overpasses but nobody really knows for certain. Despite all the software updates, it's never been fixed. At this point I don't think it ever will be.
To your knowledge (I don't follow Teslas much in general, am just a software engineer here), have anyone at Telsa been able to reproduce this issue? Would be even crazier if someone at Telsa managed to reproduce the issue, have that event recorded, look at the logs, and still don't know what went wrong. If that's the case (and not the case where nobody at Telsa has reproduced the issue under their watch), then that's worrying that they have everything they need (data, logs) but don't know how to solve the issue. Or maybe it could be they ID'd the issue, they just aren't sure how to best fix the issue yet?
This is phantom braking. And very Tesla owner I’ve ever talked to has experienced it. The conditions described above are fairly typical.

You can do a deep dive in the internets for the explanation behind it.

The quick and dirty is the vision systems sees an unmoving object stretching across the path of intended motion, and is trying to figure out if it’s a stopped truck (and the car should stop) or if it’s an overpass (and the car can safely fit under it)
Last edited by Normchad on Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 »

cflannagan wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:18 pm To your knowledge (I don't follow Teslas much in general, am just a software engineer here), have anyone at Telsa been able to reproduce this issue? Would be even crazier if someone at Telsa managed to reproduce the issue, have that event recorded, look at the logs, and still don't know what went wrong. If that's the case (and not the case where nobody at Telsa has reproduced the issue under their watch), then that's worrying that they have everything they need (data, logs) but don't know how to solve the issue. Or maybe it could be they ID'd the issue, they just aren't sure how to best fix the issue yet?
They can reproduce it. It's well documented and there are lots of Tesla forum posts about it. I think one of the reasons why it hasn't been fixed is because Tesla is maxxed out with Full Self Driving development and they've mostly given up on the "legacy" autopilot. They're basically two completely different software stacks. At some point they're going to merge the two stacks together such that even cars without FSD will use the FSD stack to perform basic Autopilot functions, but for older cars like mine which were built before the FSD computer was rolled out, there will likely be no long term fix.
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cflannagan
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by cflannagan »

investor997 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:25 pm
cflannagan wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:18 pm To your knowledge (I don't follow Teslas much in general, am just a software engineer here), have anyone at Telsa been able to reproduce this issue? Would be even crazier if someone at Telsa managed to reproduce the issue, have that event recorded, look at the logs, and still don't know what went wrong. If that's the case (and not the case where nobody at Telsa has reproduced the issue under their watch), then that's worrying that they have everything they need (data, logs) but don't know how to solve the issue. Or maybe it could be they ID'd the issue, they just aren't sure how to best fix the issue yet?
They can reproduce it. It's well documented and there are lots of Tesla forum posts about it. I think one of the reasons why it hasn't been fixed is because Tesla is maxxed out with Full Self Driving development and they've mostly given up on the "legacy" autopilot. They're basically two completely different software stacks. At some point they're going to merge the two stacks together such that even cars without FSD will use the FSD stack to perform basic Autopilot functions, but for older cars like mine which were built before the FSD computer was rolled out, there will likely be no long term fix.
Ah, now that makes sense. That's unfortunate that in your case there likely won't be a fix.
Last edited by cflannagan on Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eddiecaps1980
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Eddiecaps1980 »

Sounds like a good investment. I would buy two if I were you.
gubernaculum
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by gubernaculum »

Point wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:19 pm I’m loving my Rad Power Bike - electric, fat burning, easy to park, no insurance, no gas, loves hills, 40-60 miles in a charge. Environmental. Low cost.
Yep. This is me too. Except I have Riese and Muller Supercharger 2
a
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by a »

investor997 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:10 pmThe inside of the wheels still have almost zero accumulated brake dust thanks to regen - they're almost spotless.
Hm, that's another reason to go electric, as someone posted a little while ago that brake dust is a major source of PM2.5 pollution.
RJC
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by RJC »

investor997 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:10 pm OP here. Thought I'd resurrect my thread to post a 3 year ownership update. Hard to believe it's been that long. I have about 21,000 miles on the car. Mileage accumulation is still not nearly what it was prior to the pandemic.

Battery degradation: As of today, the car reports 270mi of range at 100% charge. This is 40mi less (~13%) than the 310mi rated range when the car was new.

Issues: A few things have come up: 1) The 12V battery died. This seems to be a fairly common issue. Tesla's mobile service replaced it under warranty at no cost. 2) The HVAC vents have no manual controls. You control where the air comes out via sliding your finger around on the GUI and electric motors move the air vents. One of these motors have gone bonkers. I have an appointment scheduled to look at this. 3) I frequently fold down the rear seatbacks so I can carry a bike. Over time, one of the seatback latches has started to rattle like crazy when the rear seats are upright. In fact, the car has a decent amount of squeaks and rattles overall, but most of the time I never hear them because the Premium Audio system is phenomenal (best factory audio of any car I've ever owned).

I'm still on the original tires. I may have mentioned in an earlier update that it's important to rotate them regularly. The rears wear faster than the fronts.

I wish I wouldn't have spent the money on Enhanced Autopilot (EAP is no longer an option; all Teslas now come with standard AP, with the $10K FSD being the only upgrade offered). Although AP works fairly well, it still suffers from "phantom braking". It's well documented on forums. Basically, you can cruise along at 70-80 with AP enabled and, with zero warning, the car will slam on the brakes, even with light traffic. It seems to be confused by freeway overpasses but nobody really knows for certain. Despite all the software updates, it's never been fixed. At this point I don't think it ever will be. The other "Enhanced" AP features such as autopark, summon, auto lane change and Navigate on AP are party tricks at best and have little real world value. Autopark should be called "curb rash mode". The last time I tried it - because I wanted to, not because I'm not a competent parallel parker - resulted in one of my wheels getting rashed. Never again.

Otherwise I'm still really happy with the car and I would definitely buy it again. Even to this day, it really has no direct competition. The acceleration is still awesome and NEVER gets old. The inside of the wheels still have almost zero accumulated brake dust thanks to regen - they're almost spotless. And I can't help but get a fantastic feeling of smugness every time I drive by the nearby Costco gas station watching everyone queue up for 20 minutes because their only other choice is the nearby Chevron at $5/gallon.

It's pretty clear by now Tesla is here for the long run and the ongoing demand for the 3 and Y speaks for itself. Hopefully other car manufacturers will expedite the development of similar EVs.

One last thing: In my original post, I mentioned "my situation" of having roughly $1M in invested assets. Some commented buying the Tesla was no big deal while others said "No way, you shouldn't buy a car this expensive" - this is Bogleheads, after all. Three years later, my portfolio is almost exactly double what it was when I bought this car, mainly a result of ongoing Boglehead-style investing, increases in income and of course, the continued gains of the stock market.
Just recently got a MY and you are right, there is no real competition (maybe Rivian soon). If you drive an ICE car after, it feels noisy and sluggish.

Best purchase ever IMO.
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Strummer »

Fun to see this thread active again!

I'm 3.5 years into my Model 3 ownership, with almost 31,000 miles on the car, and am still loving it. It's funny — the idea of having to plug the car in for charging is seen an inconvenience to some, but it's rare for me that the process ever consists of more than just doing so at home, in my garage — which is to say that it's practically effortless. I don't miss going to gas stations at all.

I'm still on the original tires, the battery is holding up well, and I've only encountered two repair issues, one of which I can't recall specifically and the other a glove box latch repair that a Tesla tech performed in my driveway. It's been a great ownership experience overall. I also invested $7,500 in Tesla stock at the time I bought the car — the only individual stock I own, I should add — and that's done, um, rather well.
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Nate79
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Nate79 »

If any car I owned had as many problems and noises as reported here I would be calling it a POS.
EnjoyIt
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by EnjoyIt »

Nate79 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:32 pm If any car I owned had as many problems and noises as reported here I would be calling it a POS.
I think the perceived benefits outweigh the problems/repairs that have occurred.
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | viewtopic.php?p=1139732#p1139732
EnjoyIt
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by EnjoyIt »

For all the Tesla owners here:

Can anyone with more than 5+ years of ownership share their experience as well?
How has the battery been doing?
Has it required any out of warranty repairs and how did it go?
How long do you plan on keeping it?
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | viewtopic.php?p=1139732#p1139732
RJC
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by RJC »

EnjoyIt wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:02 pm
Nate79 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:32 pm If any car I owned had as many problems and noises as reported here I would be calling it a POS.
I think the perceived benefits outweigh the problems/repairs that have occurred.
+1. It's an absolute joy to drive. I can't imagine ever going back to a regular ICE car.
FoolStreet
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by FoolStreet »

Nate79 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:32 pm If any car I owned had as many problems and noises as reported here I would be calling it a POS.
You make a really good point and I agree 100%. That's why we love our Teslas! No problems, no noises.
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by hunoraut »

Nate79 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:32 pm If any car I owned had as many problems and noises as reported here I would be calling it a POS.
I’ve had Japanese, German, French, Swedish, and now this American car.

Can say good and bad things about any and all of them, with personal experience and anecdotes. You can too.

In this case, the aggregate consumer satisfaction and net promoter score speaks for themselves. And they tell a very definitive story.
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Flashes1 »

Here's my anecdote that firmly established Tesla's niche with me:

* We presented our two high school age kids two rental car options in an upcoming vacation: (i) Tesla Model 3 and (ii) Mercedes 430? convertible. We're going to Florida, so I'd thought they'd choose the convertible, but with 100% enthusiasm they picked the Tesla saying they are the cat's meow or something a high schooler would say.
* I'm really looking forward to driving a Tesla for the first time in a few weeks. I've never even sat in one before. But Teslas are clearly the desired car for my two teenagers which bodes well for the company's future.
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by hunoraut »

Flashes1 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:24 am Here's my anecdote that firmly established Tesla's niche with me:

* We presented our two high school age kids two rental car options in an upcoming vacation: (i) Tesla Model 3 and (ii) Mercedes 430? convertible. We're going to Florida, so I'd thought they'd choose the convertible, but with 100% enthusiasm they picked the Tesla saying they are the cat's meow or something a high schooler would say.
* I'm really looking forward to driving a Tesla for the first time in a few weeks. I've never even sat in one before. But Teslas are clearly the desired car for my two teenagers which bodes well for the company's future.
My model 3 sedan is white, which on paper is a completely innocuous configuration, but its gotten more stares from people than anything else ive had including a roadster and a an egg-yellow sports coupe
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by squirm »

Flashes1 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:24 am Here's my anecdote that firmly established Tesla's niche with me:

* We presented our two high school age kids two rental car options in an upcoming vacation: (i) Tesla Model 3 and (ii) Mercedes 430? convertible. We're going to Florida, so I'd thought they'd choose the convertible, but with 100% enthusiasm they picked the Tesla saying they are the cat's meow or something a high schooler would say.
* I'm really looking forward to driving a Tesla for the first time in a few weeks. I've never even sat in one before. But Teslas are clearly the desired car for my two teenagers which bodes well for the company's future.
Why wouldn't it be? Tesla nailed it. Every other EV maker had their little EV compliance car, with a stupid look, and/or pathetic performance.
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