Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

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EnjoyIt
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by EnjoyIt » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:23 pm

boogiehead wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:03 pm
To me what's alarming is the high turnover rates among its executives. Most executives have incentives that take a few years to vest and a lot of them seem to bailout before that meaning they don't see long term future for the company and that's with insider information :shock:
Even if the company fails, and it might, someone will buy their factories and tech such as GM or Toyota and produce the product more efficiently. Electric cars are here to stay and likely will take over a large portion of car sales in the future. Electric engines are faster and more reliable than combustion engines. Personally I want an electric car just so that I can simplify my life with less maintenance and less time spent at the pump. So far I have not seen a reliable option that is also comfortable. Tesla has luxury but poor reliability (I'm not looking to start a reliability argument here,) Nissan Leaf has reliability but not much luxury. Once they blend I am in.

All electric race cars are being produced and all that tech will trickle down to us.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/h ... gets-real/

FoolStreet
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by FoolStreet » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:10 am

boogiehead wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:03 pm
To me what's alarming is the high turnover rates among its executives. Most executives have incentives that take a few years to vest and a lot of them seem to bailout before that meaning they don't see long term future for the company and that's with insider information :shock:
I think there was only one that was not explained as normal attrition from execs who worked hard and hit a milestone and were ready to take the next step in their career, the new CFO who noped out of there after the go-private debacle. Otherwise, it hasn’t seemed like crazy turnover. In my read, anyway.

Valuethinker
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:36 am

FoolStreet wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:10 am
boogiehead wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:03 pm
To me what's alarming is the high turnover rates among its executives. Most executives have incentives that take a few years to vest and a lot of them seem to bailout before that meaning they don't see long term future for the company and that's with insider information :shock:
I think there was only one that was not explained as normal attrition from execs who worked hard and hit a milestone and were ready to take the next step in their career, the new CFO who noped out of there after the go-private debacle. Otherwise, it hasn’t seemed like crazy turnover. In my read, anyway.
It has to flash red flags. Seriously flash red flags. That much management turnover.

The lights on the dial have all been red on this one for a long time. Musk has defied this sort of thing before, but the size of this pyramid keeps growing. The company is now of a size that it has to match the quality of its competitors, and take market share from them not just in the super sports luxury segment but reaching down into the ordinary luxury car market (not sure of the exact marketing terms, but the $80k+ segment down into the $35k segment where it will compete with BMW Lexus Audi and the high end of the ordinary marques). It's no longer just a niche product for techie-enthusiasts and it has to compete in that broader market.

The stresses and strains of that expansion are showing. Some of the financial gymnastics around the company are disconcerting to say the least.

Since I think Musk's venture is (genuinely) important to the future of this planet I hope that Tesla succeeds. But the stock valuation and the nature of the targets that would have to be hit to justify it, are pretty extreme.

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matjen
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by matjen » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:35 pm

I agree with ValueThinker. FoolStreet, do you think it normal for a General Counsel to last 6-8 weeks?!? Come on! They have lost their CFO and General Counsel just in the last few weeks and a ton of others last year. Imagine the important cogs who left that aren't worthy of news coverage? Musk is once again in trouble for falsely pumping. Either he has zero impulse control, a serious drug issue, or wants to be pushed out to avoid blame of an implosion. Or, possibly, all three it seems to me.

Tesla can barely (being generous here) service their existing cars on the road. I can't imagine what it will be like in a year. The forums and twitter are full of stories about weeks/months wait for parts. That type of "service" may be acceptable to a wealthy person who can just drive the Range Rover while the Tesla sits but it won't fly for the sales guy who depends on his Model 3 for his livelihood.

Elon Musk Faces U.S. Contempt Claim for Violating SEC Accord
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... sec-accord
The SEC claimed on Monday that a Feb. 19 tweet by Musk violated the settlement when he wrote that “Tesla made 0 cars in 2011, but will make around 500k in 2019.” The deal with the agency required him to seek pre-approval from the company for social media posts and other written communication that would be material to the company or investors.
A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.

emoore
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by emoore » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:44 pm

matjen wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:35 pm
I agree with ValueThinker. FoolStreet, do you think it normal for a General Counsel to last 6-8 weeks?!? Come on! They have lost their CFO and General Counsel just in the last few weeks and a ton of others last year. Imagine the important cogs who left that aren't worthy of news coverage? Musk is once again in trouble for falsely pumping. Either he has zero impulse control, a serious drug issue, or wants to be pushed out to avoid blame of an implosion. Or, possibly, all three it seems to me.

Tesla can barely (being generous here) service their existing cars on the road. I can't imagine what it will be like in a year. The forums and twitter are full of stories about weeks/months wait for parts. That type of "service" may be acceptable to a wealthy person who can just drive the Range Rover while the Tesla sits but it won't fly for the sales guy who depends on his Model 3 for his livelihood.

Elon Musk Faces U.S. Contempt Claim for Violating SEC Accord
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... sec-accord
The SEC claimed on Monday that a Feb. 19 tweet by Musk violated the settlement when he wrote that “Tesla made 0 cars in 2011, but will make around 500k in 2019.” The deal with the agency required him to seek pre-approval from the company for social media posts and other written communication that would be material to the company or investors.
So why are comments about climate change blocked but you can pretty much say anything about Tesla and it's CEO and that's ok? Seems like a bit of a double standard on this forum.

FoolStreet
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by FoolStreet » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:45 am

emoore wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:44 pm
matjen wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:35 pm
I agree with ValueThinker. FoolStreet, do you think it normal for a General Counsel to last 6-8 weeks?!? Come on! They have lost their CFO and General Counsel just in the last few weeks and a ton of others last year. Imagine the important cogs who left that aren't worthy of news coverage? Musk is once again in trouble for falsely pumping. Either he has zero impulse control, a serious drug issue, or wants to be pushed out to avoid blame of an implosion. Or, possibly, all three it seems to me.

Tesla can barely (being generous here) service their existing cars on the road. I can't imagine what it will be like in a year. The forums and twitter are full of stories about weeks/months wait for parts. That type of "service" may be acceptable to a wealthy person who can just drive the Range Rover while the Tesla sits but it won't fly for the sales guy who depends on his Model 3 for his livelihood.

Elon Musk Faces U.S. Contempt Claim for Violating SEC Accord
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... sec-accord
The SEC claimed on Monday that a Feb. 19 tweet by Musk violated the settlement when he wrote that “Tesla made 0 cars in 2011, but will make around 500k in 2019.” The deal with the agency required him to seek pre-approval from the company for social media posts and other written communication that would be material to the company or investors.
So why are comments about climate change blocked but you can pretty much say anything about Tesla and it's CEO and that's ok? Seems like a bit of a double standard on this forum.
Agreed. I feel a little baited since staff turnover isn’t really germaine to the thread. I appreciate that Valuethinker perceives red flags but wants Tesla to succeed. Matjen just wants them to fail no matter what.

I figure there is a lot of work done to challenge the petrol industry and folks need breaks or realize it’s not for them.

The SEC situation is ridiculous but they are in power, so you have to walk a fine line. Musk shared is full year estimates on his conference call. And yet when he shared them on Twitter he got in trouble. Sounds like he performed reasonable checks and balances but the SEC is getting heat from the auto industry because Elon didn’t re-validate what he said in his con call and earnings report before posting to Twitter. A break down between following intent and principles versus pound of flesh antics.

Regardless, Tesla is making it happen. Full stop. Shipping to Europe. China. Forcing all other manufacturers to change their business models. Innovating. Ruffling feathers. Haters gonna hate.

I need a new thread. Buy a RAV4 Hybrid in March or wait until Model Y. lol

Jack FFR1846
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:00 am

FoolStreet wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:45 am
Regardless, Tesla is making it happen. Full stop. Shipping to Europe. China. Forcing all other manufacturers to change their business models. Innovating. Ruffling feathers. Haters gonna hate.
How are other manufacturers changing their business models?

- Who has eliminated dealerships?
- Who has stopped indoor manufacturing and erected tents to finish cars?
- Who has hired one of the Beastie Boys as a CEO/spokesman/twitter troll?
- Who has created a used car system where cars get lost, delayed, delivered without titles, require employees to fly from California to figure out what's going on? (see Rich Rebuilds series on his acquiring a used Model X)

I give Tesla credit for going forward and bringing electric cars to the marketplace where prior wisdom said the marketplace would not buy them. They are certainly not the first to try. I drove one of the early GM electric prototypes in the late 80's. Later, visited the electric car group inside Inland Fisher Guide in the 90's. They simply didn't see enough market, even with the EV1 introduction. I don't think it's much different of a view for GM with the Bolt. You gotta make money, not just introduce a cool car.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

FoolStreet
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by FoolStreet » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:44 am

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:00 am
FoolStreet wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:45 am
Regardless, Tesla is making it happen. Full stop. Shipping to Europe. China. Forcing all other manufacturers to change their business models. Innovating. Ruffling feathers. Haters gonna hate.
How are other manufacturers changing their business models?

- Who has eliminated dealerships?
- Who has stopped indoor manufacturing and erected tents to finish cars?
- Who has hired one of the Beastie Boys as a CEO/spokesman/twitter troll?
- Who has created a used car system where cars get lost, delayed, delivered without titles, require employees to fly from California to figure out what's going on? (see Rich Rebuilds series on his acquiring a used Model X)

I give Tesla credit for going forward and bringing electric cars to the marketplace where prior wisdom said the marketplace would not buy them. They are certainly not the first to try. I drove one of the early GM electric prototypes in the late 80's. Later, visited the electric car group inside Inland Fisher Guide in the 90's. They simply didn't see enough market, even with the EV1 introduction. I don't think it's much different of a view for GM with the Bolt. You gotta make money, not just introduce a cool car.

I shouldn’t get into a tit for tat.

But to be actionable, my wife wants a new SUV. But with legitimate electric SUVs Coming out this year and next, we will wait.

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DanMahowny
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by DanMahowny » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:19 pm

I love Elon Musk.

He is generating significant gains for my portfolio (massive TSLA short position).
Funding secured

FoolStreet
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by FoolStreet » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:29 pm

DanMahowny wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:19 pm
I love Elon Musk.

He is generating significant gains for my portfolio (massive TSLA short position).
I think you prove the counter point.

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investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:05 pm

OP here again.

I started a new job last month. The new gig has me in the field and I'm driving MUCH more for work than I used to - 450+ work-related miles so far. Moving forward, I expect to drive at least this much for work - likely much more. Let's do a quick cost-per-mile math exercise:

As I mentioned early in the thread, the two cars I considered buying prior to the Model 3 were either an Audi S4 or Audi A6, both of which have a 3.0-liter Supercharged V6. Those cars have a 24-MPG combined fuel economy rating. Here in SoCal, a gallon of premium gas presently costs about $3.60. Given this, not including depreciation or maintenance, the cost per mile in fuel alone for the Audi would have been about $0.15.

And now for the Model 3: The Tesla consumes energy at the rate of about 270 Wh/mi. I charge my car overnight at off-peak electricity rates, which SoCal Edison sells to me for $0.13/kWh. Therefore, the cost-per-mile in terms of juice is $0.035.

15K miles worth of gas for the Audi: $2250
15K miles worth of juice for the Tesla: $525
Annual fuel savings: ~$1725, or in my case, roughly three car payments.

In my estimation, depreciation costs between the Model 3 and the Audi will be similar. Maybe slightly better with the Tesla. Maintenance costs with the Tesla will be MUCH lower, of course: No oil changes and hardly ever any brake jobs thanks to the Tesla's strong regenerative braking.

I truly love this car!

neilpilot
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by neilpilot » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:07 pm

investor997 wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:05 pm
OP here again.

I started a new job last month. The new gig has me in the field and I'm driving MUCH more for work than I used to - 450+ work-related miles so far. Moving forward, I expect to drive at least this much for work - likely much more. Let's do a quick cost-per-mile math exercise:

As I mentioned early in the thread, the two cars I considered buying prior to the Model 3 were either an Audi S4 or Audi A6, both of which have a 3.0-liter Supercharged V6. Those cars have a 24-MPG combined fuel economy rating. Here in SoCal, a gallon of premium gas presently costs about $3.60. Given this, not including depreciation or maintenance, the cost per mile in fuel alone for the Audi would have been about $0.15.

And now for the Model 3: The Tesla consumes energy at the rate of about 270 Wh/mi. I charge my car overnight at off-peak electricity rates, which SoCal Edison sells to me for $0.13/kWh. Therefore, the cost-per-mile in terms of juice is $0.035.

15K miles worth of gas for the Audi: $2250
15K miles worth of juice for the Tesla: $525
Annual fuel savings: ~$1725, or in my case, roughly three car payments.

In my estimation, depreciation costs between the Model 3 and the Audi will be similar. Maybe slightly better with the Tesla. Maintenance costs with the Tesla will be MUCH lower, of course: No oil changes and hardly ever any brake jobs thanks to the Tesla's strong regenerative braking.

I truly love this car!
Have you included depreciation (or cost of replacement) of the Tesla battery pack?

squirm
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by squirm » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:13 pm

That's cool, enjoy the Tesla.
I envy those that enjoy driving.

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investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:15 pm

neilpilot wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:07 pm
Have you included depreciation (or cost of replacement) of the Tesla battery pack?
No. Here's why:

Firstly, the battery pack is under warranty for 8 years or 120K miles.

Secondly, as anyone with a history of German car ownership knows, owning an Audi or BMW or Mercedes past the warranty expiration is a VERY risky proposition. It's not uncommon for them to cost their owners $3K per year (or more) in terms of maintenance or repairs: $1K for a water pump here or there, maybe another $1K for ignition coils, maybe another $750 for those leaky valve cover gaskets, perhaps a $1200 crankshaft position sensor, or God forbid, $7K for a blown transmission. You think those dual clutch automatics are cheap? Nope.

On a long enough timeline, battery replacement cost vs. ICE-specific repairs of a comparable luxury brand are a wash. IMHO.

HEDGEFUNDIE
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:17 pm

investor997 wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:05 pm
I charge my car overnight at off-peak electricity rates, which SoCal Edison sells to me for $0.13/kWh. Therefore, the cost-per-mile in terms of juice is $0.035.
My understanding is when you sign up for this kind of rate plan they jack up your kWh rate during the day time hours. Have you factored this hidden cost into your calculations?

Big Dog
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Big Dog » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:20 pm

My understanding is when you sign up for this kind of rate plan they jack up your kWh rate during the day time hours. Have you factored this hidden cost into your calculations?
Exactly. a/c in the summer gets really expensive during daylight hours.

Investor: look into a separate meter for the M3....if you drive a lot of electric miles charged from home, the cost to install can be recaptured in a couple of years (after Edison rebate).

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investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:26 pm

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:17 pm
investor997 wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:05 pm
I charge my car overnight at off-peak electricity rates, which SoCal Edison sells to me for $0.13/kWh. Therefore, the cost-per-mile in terms of juice is $0.035.
My understanding is when you sign up for this kind of rate plan they jack up your kWh rate during the day time hours. Have you factored this hidden cost into your calculations?
SCE is about to roll out a rate plan called "TOU-D-Prime". Owners of EVs or on-site storage (like a Tesla Powerwall) will be eligible. With TOU-D-Prime, no matter what day of the week or what time of year, the only "peak" hours will be from 4pm-9pm. All other times will be off-peak with rates at ~$0.13/kWh. I'll be able to run the AC at home almost all day long during the summer at off-peak rates. The only tradeoff is they'll charge a flat $12 a month for this plan, so a slight cost adder. No biggie.

The rates of the current tiered system are $0.18/$0.23/$0.4x. With my usage, most of the juice I'd have to buy would be at the $0.23 tier so I estimate I'll save money under the new plan.

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investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:29 pm

Big Dog wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:20 pm
Investor: look into a separate meter for the M3....if you drive a lot of electric miles charged from home, the cost to install can be recaptured in a couple of years (after Edison rebate).
It's not physically possible for me to install a second meter where I live (condo association) so that plan isn't an option for me.

Besides, the TOU-EV rate plan was just obsoleted by SCE. TOU-D-Prime is the new plan:
https://www.sce.com/residential/rates/T ... Rate-Plans

FoolStreet
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by FoolStreet » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:35 pm

investor997 wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:05 pm
OP here again.

I started a new job last month. The new gig has me in the field and I'm driving MUCH more for work than I used to - 450+ work-related miles so far. Moving forward, I expect to drive at least this much for work - likely much more. Let's do a quick cost-per-mile math exercise:

As I mentioned early in the thread, the two cars I considered buying prior to the Model 3 were either an Audi S4 or Audi A6, both of which have a 3.0-liter Supercharged V6. Those cars have a 24-MPG combined fuel economy rating. Here in SoCal, a gallon of premium gas presently costs about $3.60. Given this, not including depreciation or maintenance, the cost per mile in fuel alone for the Audi would have been about $0.15.

And now for the Model 3: The Tesla consumes energy at the rate of about 270 Wh/mi. I charge my car overnight at off-peak electricity rates, which SoCal Edison sells to me for $0.13/kWh. Therefore, the cost-per-mile in terms of juice is $0.035.

15K miles worth of gas for the Audi: $2250
15K miles worth of juice for the Tesla: $525
Annual fuel savings: ~$1725, or in my case, roughly three car payments.

In my estimation, depreciation costs between the Model 3 and the Audi will be similar. Maybe slightly better with the Tesla. Maintenance costs with the Tesla will be MUCH lower, of course: No oil changes and hardly ever any brake jobs thanks to the Tesla's strong regenerative braking.

I truly love this car!
For reference my old 2010 Prius cost about $.06/ mile.

Even doubling electric rates, if you had to charge at someone else’s house or a ChargePoint station, you still come out ahead. Did you get 6mo free supercharging? I don’t use it but it’s nice to have from time to time.

FoolStreet
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by FoolStreet » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:40 pm

investor997 wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:15 pm
neilpilot wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:07 pm
Have you included depreciation (or cost of replacement) of the Tesla battery pack?
No. Here's why:

Firstly, the battery pack is under warranty for 8 years or 120K miles.

Secondly, as anyone with a history of German car ownership knows, owning an Audi or BMW or Mercedes past the warranty expiration is a VERY risky proposition. It's not uncommon for them to cost their owners $3K per year (or more) in terms of maintenance or repairs: $1K for a water pump here or there, maybe another $1K for ignition coils, maybe another $750 for those leaky valve cover gaskets, perhaps a $1200 crankshaft position sensor, or God forbid, $7K for a blown transmission. You think those dual clutch automatics are cheap? Nope.

On a long enough timeline, battery replacement cost vs. ICE-specific repairs of a comparable luxury brand are a wash. IMHO.
Gawd, my BMW(s) are/were painful to drive. You literally never know when they are going to break down. It used be like Costco, where you don’t leave Costco for less than $90, but realistically $300. Now you don’t leave an independent mechanic for less than $1300 if you are lucky, but more like $3k a pop. Just couldn’t afford BMW. And it was too stressful to drive, waiting for a window regulator to go out in the rain or a water pump to explode in the summer. No thank you.

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investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:42 pm

FoolStreet wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:35 pm
For reference my old 2010 Prius cost about $.06/ mile.

Even doubling electric rates, if you had to charge at someone else’s house or a ChargePoint station, you still come out ahead. Did you get 6mo free supercharging? I don’t use it but it’s nice to have from time to time.
I did get the 6mo free Supercharging with my car but to date, I've only visited a Supercharger once. Superchargers are ridiculously congested here in SoCal so I do what I can to avoid them.

FoolStreet
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by FoolStreet » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:47 pm

investor997 wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:42 pm
FoolStreet wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:35 pm
For reference my old 2010 Prius cost about $.06/ mile.

Even doubling electric rates, if you had to charge at someone else’s house or a ChargePoint station, you still come out ahead. Did you get 6mo free supercharging? I don’t use it but it’s nice to have from time to time.
I did get the 6mo free Supercharging with my car but to date, I've only visited a Supercharger once. Superchargers are ridiculously congested here in SoCal so I do what I can to avoid them.
Yes, I’ve heard war stories. And when I had my 3 in LA over the holiday, there really weren’t any in Westwood/The Valley. I hear there are new ones opening in San Diego, Santa Monica, etc but with the 35k car orderable as of Thursday, they will stay quite busy. I was pleasantly surprised how easy it was to charge overnight on a 110 extension cord and be comfortable braving LA traffic, so it’s definitely doable.

I like to check out http://supercharge.info from time to time to stay up to date on what new stations are coming along. Pasadena looks like it’s just around the corner!

neilpilot
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by neilpilot » Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:45 pm

investor997 wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:15 pm
neilpilot wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:07 pm
Have you included depreciation (or cost of replacement) of the Tesla battery pack?
No. Here's why:

Firstly, the battery pack is under warranty for 8 years or 120K miles.

Secondly, as anyone with a history of German car ownership knows, owning an Audi or BMW or Mercedes past the warranty expiration is a VERY risky proposition. It's not uncommon for them to cost their owners $3K per year (or more) in terms of maintenance or repairs: $1K for a water pump here or there, maybe another $1K for ignition coils, maybe another $750 for those leaky valve cover gaskets, perhaps a $1200 crankshaft position sensor, or God forbid, $7K for a blown transmission. You think those dual clutch automatics are cheap? Nope.

On a long enough timeline, battery replacement cost vs. ICE-specific repairs of a comparable luxury brand are a wash. IMHO.
I agree with your logic, but have to say I must be uncommonly lucky with Germans. In the last 2 decades I've owned 2 Porsche, a 95 BMW 525 and a Mercedes. Thea 2002 Mercedes C240 was bought new and driven for ~150k miles. It never went to the dealer after the warranty expired, never required an major repair except for a windshield replacement, and was going strong when we traded it for the 2016 GLC300 last year. DIY parts costs (brakes, filters, etc) were very reasonable.

The others, all acquired used, included a Porsche 944 & 928S, a 525 BMW and the current Mercedes GLC300. All were easy to maintain DIY and none ever needed any extensive repair. In the past decade, only 2 broke down away from home.....the C240 battery went dead, and the 928S starter solenoid gave out. Not too bad for 19 years of mostly German auto ownership.

JackoC
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by JackoC » Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:30 pm

neilpilot wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:45 pm
investor997 wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:15 pm
neilpilot wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:07 pm
Have you included depreciation (or cost of replacement) of the Tesla battery pack?
No. Here's why:

Firstly, the battery pack is under warranty for 8 years or 120K miles.

Secondly, as anyone with a history of German car ownership knows, owning an Audi or BMW or Mercedes past the warranty expiration is a VERY risky proposition.
I agree with your logic, but have to say I must be uncommonly lucky with Germans. In the last 2 decades I've owned 2 Porsche, a 95 BMW 525 and a Mercedes. Thea 2002 Mercedes C240 was bought new and driven for ~150k miles. It never went to the dealer after the warranty expired, never required an major repair except for a windshield replacement, and was going strong when we traded it for the 2016 GLC300 last year. DIY parts costs (brakes, filters, etc) were very reasonable.
The statistics don't really back the idea that BMW's and Porsche's in particular (Mercedes it's more mixed) are unreliable in recent years. Especially not compared to Tesla's state of affairs right now. Maybe in theory because of the relative mechanical simplicity of electric cars, and once and if Tesla comes fully up the organizational learning curve to being a real car company, or perhaps the electrics offered by real car companies now. But pushing Tesla right now based on reliability and ease of repair, seriously?

Also in terms of generally expected maintenance costs, stuff you expect to wear out at non-super high mileage or just basic stuff like oil changes and (regular IC car starting) batteries. Yeah that's more expensive with German luxury brand IC engine cars, and again electric cars are simpler. But those things don't break the bank.

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investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:29 pm

JackoC wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:30 pm
The statistics don't really back the idea that BMW's and Porsche's in particular (Mercedes it's more mixed) are unreliable in recent years. Especially not compared to Tesla's state of affairs right now. Maybe in theory because of the relative mechanical simplicity of electric cars, and once and if Tesla comes fully up the organizational learning curve to being a real car company, or perhaps the electrics offered by real car companies now. But pushing Tesla right now based on reliability and ease of repair, seriously?
German cars are reasonably reliable during their warranty periods but their high levels of mechanical complexity make expensive repairs a near certainty as they begin to age and accumulate mileage.

Before I bought my Tesla I had a 2010 Porsche 911 and I frequented Rennlist. Lots of discussion over there about failed PDK transmissions. It doesn't happen very often but when it does, unless you have a good relationship with your local dealer service advisor, expect a $12K repair bill. I didn't want that cloud lingering over me which was one reason why I sold it. And before I had the 911 I had a 2007 BMW 335i. Here's a list of all the stuff that went wrong with it: turbos/wastegates, VANOS actuators, water pump, oil filter housing gasket, transmission pan gasket and a bunch of stuff I'm leaving off - all before 100K miles.

EVs like the Tesla simply don't have any of that mechanical nonsense so yes, despite Tesla being Tesla, there are simply fewer things that can go wrong with it.

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matjen
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by matjen » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:14 pm

investor997 wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:29 pm
German cars are reasonably reliable during their warranty periods but their high levels of mechanical complexity make expensive repairs a near certainty as they begin to age and accumulate mileage.

Before I bought my Tesla I had a 2010 Porsche 911 and I frequented Rennlist. Lots of discussion over there about failed PDK transmissions. It doesn't happen very often but when it does, unless you have a good relationship with your local dealer service advisor, expect a $12K repair bill. I didn't want that cloud lingering over me which was one reason why I sold it. And before I had the 911 I had a 2007 BMW 335i. Here's a list of all the stuff that went wrong with it: turbos/wastegates, VANOS actuators, water pump, oil filter housing gasket, transmission pan gasket and a bunch of stuff I'm leaving off - all before 100K miles.

EVs like the Tesla simply don't have any of that mechanical nonsense so yes, despite Tesla being Tesla, there are simply fewer things that can go wrong with it.
Listen people, this is fantasy land salespersonspeak. With all due respect. The Tesla people come up with all this anecdata but there are few to no facts supporting it.

1) Unlike everyone else Tesla does not report reliability to JD Power. They prefer to rely on stories like the above than any actual data. You know, like how Bernie Madoff had some nobody audit his books. The real numbers remain shrouded in mystery.
2) True Delta is a source of reliability from the owners themselves. Tesla is horrible. Like magnitudes worse than almost all other cars. So while there may be less things that can go wrong, the cars are so poorly designed and tested for the real world that they often do go wrong. Let's look at a Model 3 compared to an Audi A4 the last two years. The number represents repairs per 100 vehicles. Ugh. And this is only through June 2018 before a second winter set in with the vast majority of Model 3s on the road.

https://www.truedelta.com/car-reliabili ... ts/06-2018

Tesla Model 3
Image

Audi A4
Image

3) Even if Teslas somehow improve (not likely), the wait for parts and repair services is insane. See this post just now by a forum member on the 9 weeks for each repair (and the huge insurance premium). viewtopic.php?p=4418817#p4418886

So if after five years you start having more issues with your A4 (assuming no lease...many cars at this level and above are leased fyi) at least it will be repaired in a timely manner. You should have no such confidence that a Tesla will be. There is no evidence at all that they are ramping their service abilities to match all these Model 3s they are selling (though less and less of those which is another story). In fact, they just laid a bunch of service people off.
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matjen
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by matjen » Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:13 pm

FoolStreet wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:10 am
boogiehead wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:03 pm
To me what's alarming is the high turnover rates among its executives. Most executives have incentives that take a few years to vest and a lot of them seem to bailout before that meaning they don't see long term future for the company and that's with insider information :shock:
I think there was only one that was not explained as normal attrition from execs who worked hard and hit a milestone and were ready to take the next step in their career, the new CFO who noped out of there after the go-private debacle. Otherwise, it hasn’t seemed like crazy turnover. In my read, anyway.
VP of Engineering just left. Apparently to nothing... So that is number 89 since early last year. Amazing and I believe quite germane to the topic of a very expensive automobile purchase and ongoing company viability/service.

Dr. Michael Schwekutsch
Former VP of Engineering, Exploring new opportunities
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/ur ... 942323712/

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A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by FoolStreet » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:48 pm

matjen wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:14 pm
investor997 wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:29 pm
German cars are reasonably reliable during their warranty periods but their high levels of mechanical complexity make expensive repairs a near certainty as they begin to age and accumulate mileage.

Before I bought my Tesla I had a 2010 Porsche 911 and I frequented Rennlist. Lots of discussion over there about failed PDK transmissions. It doesn't happen very often but when it does, unless you have a good relationship with your local dealer service advisor, expect a $12K repair bill. I didn't want that cloud lingering over me which was one reason why I sold it. And before I had the 911 I had a 2007 BMW 335i. Here's a list of all the stuff that went wrong with it: turbos/wastegates, VANOS actuators, water pump, oil filter housing gasket, transmission pan gasket and a bunch of stuff I'm leaving off - all before 100K miles.

EVs like the Tesla simply don't have any of that mechanical nonsense so yes, despite Tesla being Tesla, there are simply fewer things that can go wrong with it.
Listen people, this is fantasy land salespersonspeak. With all due respect. The Tesla people come up with all this anecdata but there are few to no facts supporting it.

1) Unlike everyone else Tesla does not report reliability to JD Power. They prefer to rely on stories like the above than any actual data. You know, like how Bernie Madoff had some nobody audit his books. The real numbers remain shrouded in mystery.
2) True Delta is a source of reliability from the owners themselves. Tesla is horrible. Like magnitudes worse than almost all other cars. So while there may be less things that can go wrong, the cars are so poorly designed and tested for the real world that they often do go wrong. Let's look at a Model 3 compared to an Audi A4 the last two years. The number represents repairs per 100 vehicles. Ugh. And this is only through June 2018 before a second winter set in with the vast majority of Model 3s on the road.

https://www.truedelta.com/car-reliabili ... ts/06-2018

Tesla Model 3
Image

Audi A4
Image

3) Even if Teslas somehow improve (not likely), the wait for parts and repair services is insane. See this post just now by a forum member on the 9 weeks for each repair (and the huge insurance premium). viewtopic.php?p=4418817#p4418886

So if after five years you start having more issues with your A4 (assuming no lease...many cars at this level and above are leased fyi) at least it will be repaired in a timely manner. You should have no such confidence that a Tesla will be. There is no evidence at all that they are ramping their service abilities to match all these Model 3s they are selling (though less and less of those which is another story). In fact, they just laid a bunch of service people off.

On March 8, they updated their info:

https://www.truedelta.com/blog/?p=2115

More promising: Tesla Model 3s sold in the latter half of 2018 with dual motors and other new features scored much better, 41 repair trips per 100 cars. We have a smaller sample size for these, 18 cars, but the improvement is so dramatic that it’s almost certainly a real one and not sampling error. In other words, Tesla might be getting its stuff together, at least on the reliability front.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TomatoTomahto » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:43 pm

investor997 wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:42 pm
FoolStreet wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:35 pm
For reference my old 2010 Prius cost about $.06/ mile.
Even doubling electric rates, if you had to charge at someone else’s house or a ChargePoint station, you still come out ahead. Did you get 6mo free supercharging? I don’t use it but it’s nice to have from time to time.
I did get the 6mo free Supercharging with my car but to date, I've only visited a Supercharger once. Superchargers are ridiculously congested here in SoCal so I do what I can to avoid them.
I also seldom use Superchargers, although they aren’t as crowded on the East Coast as West. It’s so easy to charge at home; I always wake up to a full tank, and it’s our solar panels that provided the electrons.

I’ve had my Model X for 3 years, VIN 0002xx, so it was part of the first teething pain batches. Tesla has proactively, without any complaints from me about the existing parts, upgraded some parts that they felt they had improved based on field experience. I did have a squeaky drivers seat that I told them about and they replaced. I have a problem right now; my key fobs have lost their programming. Tesla is sending out a mobile tech next week; in the meantime I have to use my phone or iPad. Horrors.

Enjoy your Model 3.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by stoptothink » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:58 pm

matjen wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:13 pm
FoolStreet wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:10 am
boogiehead wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:03 pm
To me what's alarming is the high turnover rates among its executives. Most executives have incentives that take a few years to vest and a lot of them seem to bailout before that meaning they don't see long term future for the company and that's with insider information :shock:
I think there was only one that was not explained as normal attrition from execs who worked hard and hit a milestone and were ready to take the next step in their career, the new CFO who noped out of there after the go-private debacle. Otherwise, it hasn’t seemed like crazy turnover. In my read, anyway.
VP of Engineering just left. Apparently to nothing... So that is number 89 since early last year. Amazing and I believe quite germane to the topic of a very expensive automobile purchase and ongoing company viability/service.

Dr. Michael Schwekutsch
Former VP of Engineering, Exploring new opportunities
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/ur ... 942323712/

Image
I recently hired a microbiologist who was working as an executive assistant for TESLA. She chased a guy out to the Bay Area after graduation, it didn't work out so she headed back to Utah. She practically has PTSD from working there; she makes it sound like an employee revolving door.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by mavenleek » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:11 pm

I have many friends that work at Tesla. You have no idea how much the company (and Elon) is demanding with its employees. It's definitely not for everyone. In addition, Tesla is also known to pay below market. Hence, I would rather see the high turnover as a sign that employees can't sustain the costs that Tesla have on their private life rather than a lack of confidence in Tesla ability to future.

Last but not least, it's not new... I've been hearing the same stories of Tesla possible bankruptcy since pretty much the first Roadster carne out...

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by ohboy! » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:37 am

I owned a decent amount of stock but got out at $350. I also had $1k deposit on model 3 that I put down the second day of the offerring. Yesterday I took a refund of my $1k.

I don’t think I’ll ever by a Tesla out of principle. The experience was gross all around. There will be a lot of competition in the coming years and I just don’t feel comfortable supporting this kind of business operation.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by 4nursebee » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:48 pm

Great video featuring the guy that broke down and analyzed the car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... DucRxWz_58
4nursebee

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by 4nursebee » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:01 pm

There are other reasons to consider owning a Tesla Model 3:

1. It is cheaper than a Camry: https://ark-invest.com/research/model-3-vs-camry

2. The car could be used for the tesla ride sharing coming in the future: https://ark-invest.com/research/teslas- ... pportunity
https://ark-invest.com/research/autonomous-taxi-model
4nursebee

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by michaeljc70 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:17 pm

4nursebee wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:01 pm
There are other reasons to consider owning a Tesla Model 3:

1. It is cheaper than a Camry: https://ark-invest.com/research/model-3-vs-camry

2. The car could be used for the tesla ride sharing coming in the future: https://ark-invest.com/research/teslas- ... pportunity
https://ark-invest.com/research/autonomous-taxi-model
Well, they don't tell how many miles driven per year that is based on and if it includes the new reduced tax credit. Then, of course, is the fact that keeping a car 3 years is not very Bogleheadish. Then the factor of what electricity costs where you live. The story seems lacking in a lot of numbers.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Big Dog » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:46 pm

2) True Delta is a source of reliability from the owners themselves.
A collection of self-reported anecdotes does not equal 'data'.....
3) Even if Teslas somehow improve (not likely), the wait for parts and repair services is insane. See this post just now by a forum member on the 9 weeks for each repair (and the huge insurance premium).
Just had my D's Audi 2016 A3 repaired for bumper cover damage -- she was hit while parked in an off street lot. Car taken into shop before Thanksgiving and was finally returned Feb 2.......but yes, repairing Tesla body damage will take a long time. Highly recommended to add Rental Reimbursement to auto insurance.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by BrandonBogle » Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:39 am

michaeljc70 wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:17 pm
4nursebee wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:01 pm
There are other reasons to consider owning a Tesla Model 3:

1. It is cheaper than a Camry: https://ark-invest.com/research/model-3-vs-camry

2. The car could be used for the tesla ride sharing coming in the future: https://ark-invest.com/research/teslas- ... pportunity
https://ark-invest.com/research/autonomous-taxi-model
Well, they don't tell how many miles driven per year that is based on and if it includes the new reduced tax credit. Then, of course, is the fact that keeping a car 3 years is not very Bogleheadish. Then the factor of what electricity costs where you live. The story seems lacking in a lot of numbers.
As an owner of a Model S and a Model 3, I laugh at the though a Camry is more expensive than a Tesla. Unless you are playing really fancy with things (fully loaded Camry to standard range Model ≡ with fed and state incentives), it won’t be, especially over three years. Now, if you are an ultra-high mileage driver (one of my friends does 40k miles annually), then yes, you can end up with the Tesla being cheaper, but those are outliers. Now is it worth the premium you pay, it it meets your needs and desires, sure. Just like many people are happy to pay more for an Acura instead of a Honda, etc.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TimeRunner » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:21 pm

Sandy Munro (Munro & Associates) had very interesting things to say about Tesla on the most recent Autoline After Hours video/podcast, found here:https://youtu.be/2DucRxWz_58?t=69

Munro was previously very critical of Tesla's design, build quality, body engineering, while very impressed about the powertrain, electronics, etc. He's come around to be much more impressed as his company has dug deeper, thinks Musk is an American Hero, and that Tesla will make it despite analysts' prognostications to the contrary. Recommend this podcast to folks interested in Tesla.
Man assumes more intelligence than dolphins because he achieves so much, while dolphins just have a good time. Dolphins believe they're more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reason. (HGG)


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investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:47 pm

OP here again resurrecting this thread... It's been over six months since I bought the car so I thought I'd post an update.

When I originally posted, I believe I mentioned not caring much about the cost-savings aspect of electricity over gas since I had a pretty short commute and rarely needed to drive long distances. This has since changed. I started a new job a few months ago and 150+ mile days are not uncommon (it's a field sales position). Under these circumstances, the car is pretty much revolutionary. Here's why:

1) With premium unleaded running $4.30/gal here in SoCal, the ability to charge overnight at $0.13/kWh saves respectable money. I track mileage closely and so far, I've logged 2,600 miles for work. Compared to something like an Audi S4 (what I considered buying instead) which gets 26mpg, the cost-per-mile of electricity over gas has saved me at least $300 so far. Actually, it's more than that because I'm still able to milk Tesla's free supercharging referral promotions. If I'm out on a big driving day I'll often seek out a Tesla Supercharger between appointments and juice up for free while working emails.

2) Autopilot. I've changed my mind about this. You definitely need to keep an eye on things but it really does help cut down the stress and the road rage when stuck in traffic.

3) HOV lane access stickers. 'Nuff said.

4) The drive and handling. I've said it before but it was the way this car drove that sold me. This is as true today as it was back then. Every so often I drive my SO's 2018 Audi Q5 - a pretty nice vehicle by most people's estimation - and the ICE drivetrain feels completely archaic. It's so unrefined in the way it vibrates and shifts between gears, and it's SO SLOW!

Annoyances: Surprisingly few. When you open the trunk in the rain, water will run down the rear window and fall into the trunk. It's a little noisier on the freeway than I'd like it to be (it could use more insulation). The folding rear seat has started to develop a slight rattle. I'm struggling to come up with more stuff.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:35 pm

investor997 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:47 pm

1) With premium unleaded running $4.30/gal here in SoCal, the ability to charge overnight at $0.13/kWh saves respectable money.
How are you getting $0.13/kWh? I've observed "all in" costs of electricity since those of us on the east coast pay a premium because of the strangling of natural gas pipelines. We're between 19 and 20 cents a kWh all in. Are you including ONLY the cost of the electricty? I know from my own bill that electricity alone is only half of the total cost. CA rates all in that I've seen nearly always match mine. Or is there some special rate you get for the EV?
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:23 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:35 pm
How are you getting $0.13/kWh? I've observed "all in" costs of electricity since those of us on the east coast pay a premium because of the strangling of natural gas pipelines. We're between 19 and 20 cents a kWh all in. Are you including ONLY the cost of the electricty? I know from my own bill that electricity alone is only half of the total cost. CA rates all in that I've seen nearly always match mine. Or is there some special rate you get for the EV?
I'm on a Time of Use plan. Off-peak rates are $0.13/kWh in the winter and $0.14/kWh in the summer. Those are "all-in" prices that include generation and delivery (grid). On-peak rates are much higher but peak times are easy to avoid.

Before I bought the Tesla my average monthly electric bill (on a tiered plan, not ToU) was about $70 in the winter and $110 in the summer. The last few months *with* the Tesla, the largest electric bill I've had was $114.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by crumbgrabber » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:30 pm

I rented a Model 3 this week to see what the hype is about. Wow, that is one fun car to drive! I have some major reservations about Tesla the company (mainly about quality and service/support), and the car has some design/feature decisions that make me nervous about owning one long term (power mirrors and windows moving every time the car is locked, etc) but overall the car is amazing.

My question for owners: does the novelty of the crazy acceleration wear off? I was hoping for red lights so I could stomp on it! It never got old after a half-week rental.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by HomerJ » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:35 pm

baconavocado wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:41 pm
Went to a wedding recently. The bride's parents had just bought a new Tesla Mod 3. Her extended family was all over the dance floor, draining the kegs, having a good time. The groom's parents (related to us) had just bought a 4-year old Prius with low miles. His extended family, much smaller, were barely seen on the dance floor, all were talking in small circles.
Heh.

What exactly are you implying here with this series of statements?

People who buy used cars are less fertile? Less likely to dance or drink free beer?

I'm really curious what you were trying to point out.
The J stands for Jay

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by HomerJ » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:39 pm

investor997 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:04 pm
thatme wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:40 pm
I picked up a 2017 Leaf last year for $12,500 + tax (brand new, after federal and state tax breaks and a discount from the local utility company). It's probably 40% of what the Tesla 3 is, for way less money. Fun to drive, but the EV interest begins to wear me out in the winter around here -- significantly reduced range and on certain days I have ~100 miles to drive between charges, despite my typical commute being 35 miles. Overall, I would purchase again, but I wouldn't drop $70K+ on a Tesla. I think there will be a lot of additional options in 2-3 years.
I just don't see how a Leaf is even remotely comparable to a Model 3 Performance. Like the other poster mentioned, that's like saying a Corolla is comparable to a Porsche GT3 because they both run on gasoline.

The Tesla costs more but you also get WAY more. It has twice the range and an extensive charging network.
If you are driving 15 miles to work every day in traffic, the Tesla gets you absolutely nothing over the Leaf. Going from 0-60 in 3 seconds is pretty useless in rush hour traffic. Having twice the range doesn't matter.

My gas car has twice the range of the Tesla and 100x the "charging network". People who like Teslas completely ignore that advantage. Why can't a Leaf driver ignore the same items when comparing the two cars?
The J stands for Jay

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by FoolStreet » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:29 pm

crumbgrabber wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:30 pm
I rented a Model 3 this week to see what the hype is about. Wow, that is one fun car to drive! I have some major reservations about Tesla the company (mainly about quality and service/support), and the car has some design/feature decisions that make me nervous about owning one long term (power mirrors and windows moving every time the car is locked, etc) but overall the car is amazing.

My question for owners: does the novelty of the crazy acceleration wear off? I was hoping for red lights so I could stomp on it! It never got old after a half-week rental.
The novelty of acceleration does not wear off.

Also, I pay nothing for gas. And the tech is super fun, too. We played the buggy car racing game while charging. Dog mode climate control is literally a life saver. The autopilot features on a road trip are amazing for me to be safe. I feel like I have a cushion protection zone around me with auto cruise control and auto lane change.

There are 3 driver settings: driver 1 and 2 plus an easy entry mode. Once I have my profile set it, prepares the car for me, but then it stays consistent each time I go to the car. To the other poster, I assume all the changes are because it was a rental and the Profiles didn't settle in yet.

I have a bike trailer tow hitch and with the front teunk, back trunk and back sub trunk there is a ton of space.

To the other poster (sandtrap), I agree about the 14 mile commute. I have too much range for my daily commute, but I don't mind paying for the extra. A Prius driver who doesn't want to co tribute to greenhouse emmissikns and global warming could drive the Prius prime.

The Toyota RAV4 hybrid outsold the Prius last month. And so it's only a matter of time before they add the plug in hybrid RAV4 to the line up.

We are getting very close to renewable energy and it is very exciting!!

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:09 am

crumbgrabber wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:30 pm

My question for owners: does the novelty of the crazy acceleration wear off? I was hoping for red lights so I could stomp on it! It never got old after a half-week rental.
The acceleration NEVER gets old. It spoils you. In fact, if you drive a gasoline car you’ll be shocked at how primitive, unrefined and unresponsive it is.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by 4nursebee » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:53 am

investor997 wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:09 am
crumbgrabber wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:30 pm

My question for owners: does the novelty of the crazy acceleration wear off? I was hoping for red lights so I could stomp on it! It never got old after a half-week rental.
The acceleration NEVER gets old. It spoils you. In fact, if you drive a gasoline car you’ll be shocked at how primitive, unrefined and unresponsive it is.
+1.

And, the other technology can really grow on you the longer you have the car. Our one week rental helped convince us that FSD was possible.
4nursebee

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by bagle » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:16 am

I won't try, having owned a Model 3 Standard Range Plus for one week.

My reference is BMW - have owned 3 series for the past several years. Never thought I would buy an American car!

I'm very happy with the instant, linear acceleration when I need it (e.g., entering highway, passing). The handling is great: do feel the battery mass, but the car is very agile in turns. The user interface and navigation are very intuitive.

I've had no quality control issues: no body panel gaps or similar (I showed up with the the complete Tesla club checklist). No problems glancing to center to read driving data (speedometer is large and clear). Range anxiety disappeared on day 1 after I successfully charged it overnight.

Bottom line is that my Beamer is sitting in the garage next to my Tesla and I have no interest in driving it. My "Ultimate Driving Machine" has become my "Ultimate Parked Machine".

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TonyDAntonio » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:01 am

bagle wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:16 am
"... my Beamer is sitting in the garage next to my Tesla ...".
Please turn in your boglehead badge immediately. 😂

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