How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him. [Roofing]

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fortfun
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How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him. [Roofing]

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:56 pm

[Thread updated, see this post --admin LadyGeek]

Earlier, I posted on my botched roof job. Since then, I looked up the manufacturer's application instructions. They clearly say the shingles must be installed on a dry roof/underlayment. Mine were installed in the middle and after a rain storm--everything was soaked. My contract says the manufacturer's instructions will be strictly followed. The manufacturer's warranty is void if shingles are not installed properly. Evidently, lots of problems can arise when shingles are installed on a wet surface. This is just one of many problems that I have identified with the roof. I believe the only solution is getting the job re-done.

Should I email or call the contractor? Do I let him re-try, or do I just insist on another contractor? What else should I know? I haven't paid a penny yet. FYI, I have never had to back out of a contract and I sincerely wished this had turned out different. To complicate matters, I have solar panels that are sitting out in my yard that need to be re-installed.

OnTrack2020
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by OnTrack2020 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:09 pm

I would call him and ask why it was done the way it was done. I don't know much about roofing. What would he have to do---take all of the shingles off and then re-shingle during nice weather? Can you ask him to do that? Are you able to move your solar panels into a garage? Again, I don't know much about those either.

Turbo29
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by Turbo29 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:12 pm

Can't the contractor put a lien on the property if they are not paid?

Google contractor's lien.

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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:15 pm

OnTrack2020 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:09 pm
I would call him and ask why it was done the way it was done. I don't know much about roofing. What would he have to do---take all of the shingles off and then re-shingle during nice weather? Can you ask him to do that? Are you able to move your solar panels into a garage? Again, I don't know much about those either.
Thanks on track. Yes, basically a total re-roof without rain and done properly (i.e. starter course secured properly, etc). I've emailed him today, he's taking the approach that the rain doesn't matter. I sent him the picture of the instructions that say shingles must be installed on a dry surface. I also looked up his contract saying the shingles would be installed strictly according to manufacturer's instructions. I haven't heard from him since then. I don't know if he is going to fight it and file a lien, etc. Since the roof is the most important part of the house, I am not willing to risk this one. In the meantime, I'm paying for my solar panels and they are not making electricity but they should be okay sitting outside.

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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:17 pm

Turbo29 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:12 pm
Can't the contractor put a lien on the property if they are not paid?

Google contractor's lien.
I guess so, but he didn't follow his contract either, the part that says the shingles will be installed strictly by the manufacturer's instructions, which they weren't. That's why I posted the question.

texas lawdog
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by texas lawdog » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:18 pm

I'd get an independent roof inspection performed (cost of around $200) and send via certified mail to the contractor.
This will give you some idea of the current condition of your roof and how much will need to be repaired / replaced.

Good luck

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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:22 pm

texas lawdog wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:18 pm
I'd get an independent roof inspection performed (cost of around $200) and send via certified mail to the contractor.
This will give you some idea of the current condition of your roof and how much will need to be repaired / replaced.

Good luck
Thanks texas lawdog. Problem is, they weren't installed properly and the warranty will be void. Short of a new install, there's no way to get the warranty back. Suggestions?

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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by jogren » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:27 pm

fortfun wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:17 pm
Turbo29 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:12 pm
Can't the contractor put a lien on the property if they are not paid?

Google contractor's lien.
I guess so, but he didn't follow his contract either, the part that says the shingles will be installed strictly by the manufacturer's instructions, which they weren't. That's why I posted the question.
Unfortunately who is right will be decided later and he can still file the lien. In fact, I've seen that used as leverage. Usually they file the lien and then, depending on the state, have a limited time to settle with you or file suit for their money.

J

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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by Ragnoth » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:29 pm

I would stand firm on the fact that the job wasn't done right, and work something out. Simply refusing to pay might invite a lien, a law suit, or worse.

I don't know much about roofing or installing shingles. The first Google result pointed to an "answer" on Angie's list about handling this type of situation (http://answers.angieslist.com/is-instal ... 49257.aspx). They suggested a work-around is to get them to agree to cover any apparent damage within the first year... but I don't know if that is going to be sufficient in practice:
One alternative would be to document it, and get the contractor to include a 1 year WRITTEN no-charge replacement warranty against any distortion, bulging, waves, or other noticeable deformation of the finished roof surface for 1 year from closing date on the house. Then whether it is torn off and done right or they cross their fingers is between the roof sub and the GC

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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:32 pm

jogren wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:27 pm
fortfun wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:17 pm
Turbo29 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:12 pm
Can't the contractor put a lien on the property if they are not paid?

Google contractor's lien.
I guess so, but he didn't follow his contract either, the part that says the shingles will be installed strictly by the manufacturer's instructions, which they weren't. That's why I posted the question.
Unfortunately who is right will be decided later and he can still file the lien. In fact, I've seen that used as leverage. Usually they file the lien and then, depending on the state, have a limited time to settle with you or file suit for their money.

J
Thanks jogren. If it goes that far, who wins? His contract clearly states it will be installed strictly according the manufacturer's instructions. It was not and I have many neighbors that witnessed it. I even sent him a text that night.

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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:34 pm

Ragnoth wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:29 pm
I would stand firm on the fact that the job wasn't done right, and work something out. Simply refusing to pay might invite a lien, a law suit, or worse.

I don't know much about roofing or installing shingles. The first Google result pointed to an "answer" on Angie's list about handling this type of situation (http://answers.angieslist.com/is-instal ... 49257.aspx). They suggested a work-around is to get them to agree to cover any apparent damage within the first year... but I don't know if that is going to be sufficient in practice:
One alternative would be to document it, and get the contractor to include a 1 year WRITTEN no-charge replacement warranty against any distortion, bulging, waves, or other noticeable deformation of the finished roof surface for 1 year from closing date on the house. Then whether it is torn off and done right or they cross their fingers is between the roof sub and the GC
Problem is, the lifetime shingle warranty is void at this point. I doubt his company will be around in a year...

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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by mhadden1 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:44 pm

OP, try to relax.The roof is probably fine. If it starts to leak in a year or two and the roofer is still around, you may have some recourse. At such time as you try to get something from the shingle warranty, nobody will know anything about roof conditions at install time. In 15 or 20 years the roof will need replacing. Sadly, you/the roofer/shingle manufacturer may well not be around. As much as you would like your warranty to be real valuable, it probably isn't.
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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:48 pm

mhadden1 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:44 pm
OP, try to relax.The roof is probably fine. If it starts to leak in a year or two and the roofer is still around, you may have some recourse. At such time as you try to get something from the shingle warranty, nobody will know anything about roof conditions at install time. In 15 or 20 years the roof will need replacing. Sadly, you/the roofer/shingle manufacturer may well not be around. As much as you would like your warranty to be real valuable, it probably isn't.
Unfortunately, this is just one of many problems with the roof.

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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by jminv » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:56 pm

In the prior thread, you said an inspector was going to come by and inspect the roof. Did it pass or not?

If it did pass, you need to get your own expert, like someone else mentioned above, to vouch for everything wrong with the roof. Otherwise, if it did pass inspection, the contractor will file a lien against your property and it will be your thoughts versus a roofer and an inspector.

If it didn't pass, then don't pay.

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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by prairieman » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:04 pm

If it passes inspection you are likely not going to have much recourse. In fact, it seems to me that the roof will dry out and you won’t be able to tell if it was or wasn’t wet during installation. Maybe it doesn’t even matter.

If it were me, I’d point it out to the inspector and just let it go if he said it was OK. If he wouldn’t sign off, though, then you don’t have to pay until the inspection is passed.

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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:04 pm

jminv wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:56 pm
In the prior thread, you said an inspector was going to come by and inspect the roof. Did it pass or not?

If it did pass, you need to get your own expert, like someone else mentioned above, to vouch for everything wrong with the roof. Otherwise, if it did pass inspection, the contractor will file a lien against your property and it will be your thoughts versus a roofer and an inspector.

If it didn't pass, then don't pay.
Inspection is tomorrow morning, unless the contractor cancels it, which wouldn't surprise me as he needs to fix the starter course. Currently, it is just glued down as a quick fix to try to get it to pass the inspection. His glue hasn't dried yet, so I'm sure it will still peel back way past the point where it's allowed. The bigger problem is that the shingles were installed over a wet surface. That won't show up in the inspection. However, he said they would be installed according to manufacturer's instructions, which it wasn't. I live in a area that receives frequent freezing and thawing. It sounds like the moisture trapped between the felt paper and shingle may become a major issue down the road but may not appear for several years.

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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by wageoghe » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:13 pm

This is a pet peave of mine (maybe it shouldn’t be). Building materials, mechanical equipment, appliances, etc typically come with clear instructions for how to install them. Sometimes, as in the case of these roofing shingles, installing per the instructions is a requirement for the warranty to be enforced.

Why would the roofer install the roof in the rain? Maybe he has done it many times and nothing bad has ever happened. Maybe he doesn’t know that the manufacturer specifies that the shingles should not be installed in the rain. Plus, the first course was installed incorrectly. Why is it so hard to install correctly?

I’m a little surprised that some respondents to this thread give the impression that this is not a big deal. The roof might be perfectly fine and might never leak. OTOH, it might leak (or have some other problem) in a year, two years, five years, whatever.

I see many discussions here over items of seemingly much less value or,potential long-term consequence (diminished value of car after accident, fence issues, nursing old cars or iPhones well past the time when it would be reasonable to replace them, etc).

I don’t know if it is ultimately a good idea to dispute, or if you will be successful, but I don’t think you should just accept the roof job as is.

I don’t think you should have to accept a roof that does not meet the conditions (unambiguous) of the contract. Maybe the first course can be fixed (by nailing, not by gluing), maybe not. The installation in wet conditions cannot be undone. If the first course can be fixed (that seems like a pretty big If), then I might (maybe) consider accepting a reduction in price equal to the value of the warranty (assuming it can be determined, somehow).

Good luck!

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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by welderwannabe » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:15 pm

Shingling over wet underlayment isn't ideal, but it isn't the end of the world either. It can take the water a while to evaporate trapped under shingles and that is the concern. I wouldn't do it with standing water on the roof, but I wouldn't sweat a damp roof because it rained earlier in the morning.

Weather never seems perfect whenever I have roofed. It is like God likes giving me a challenge.
I am not an investment professional, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:20 pm

welderwannabe wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:15 pm
Shingling over wet underlayment isn't ideal, but it isn't the end of the world either. It can take the water a while to evaporate trapped under shingles and that is the concern. I wouldn't do it with standing water on the roof, but I wouldn't sweat a damp roof because it rained earlier in the morning.

Weather never seems perfect whenever I have roofed. It is like God likes giving me a challenge.
They installed it immediately after receiving a 1/2" down pour. It was still raining when they went back to work. All the other roofers in our subdivision covered their roofs with tarps and stopped work. We are expecting our first freeze any day now and I doubt the water has had a chance to escape...

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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:24 pm

wageoghe wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:13 pm
This is a pet peave of mine (maybe it shouldn’t be). Building materials, mechanical equipment, appliances, etc typically come with clear instructions for how to install them. Sometimes, as in the case of these roofing shingles, installing per the instructions is a requirement for the warranty to be enforced.

Why would the roofer install the roof in the rain? Maybe he has done it many times and nothing bad has ever happened. Maybe he doesn’t know that the manufacturer specifies that the shingles should not be installed in the rain. Plus, the first course was installed incorrectly. Why is it so hard to install correctly?

I’m a little surprised that some respondents to this thread give the impression that this is not a big deal. The roof might be perfectly fine and might never leak. OTOH, it might leak (or have some other problem) in a year, two years, five years, whatever.

I see many discussions here over items of seemingly much less value or,potential long-term consequence (diminished value of car after accident, fence issues, nursing old cars or iPhones well past the time when it would be reasonable to replace them, etc).

I don’t know if it is ultimately a good idea to dispute, or if you will be successful, but I don’t think you should just accept the roof job as is.

I don’t think you should have to accept a roof that does not meet the conditions (unambiguous) of the contract. Maybe the first course can be fixed (by nailing, not by gluing), maybe not. The installation in wet conditions cannot be undone. If the first course can be fixed (that seems like a pretty big If), then I might (maybe) consider accepting a reduction in price equal to the value of the warranty (assuming it can be determined, somehow).

Good luck!
Thanks wageoghe! I was beginning to think I was going crazy. Yes, I'm paying 14k for this and it covers a 600k house. So, yes, it is a pretty big deal. We live in a cold area that receives a lot of hail. I cannot risk the warranty being voided on an investment this large.

mouses
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by mouses » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:32 pm

I would call the manufacturer and ask about the and the warranty, and if removing and reinstalling the shingles would fix this.

However, since this is one of a number of problems, I would discuss this all with the inspector and then get something in writing from the inspector. Then it's up to you if you want to give the apparently incompetent contractor a shot at doing the roof correctly or hiring a lawyer.

You have my sympathies. I had my house painted by a contractor with excellent references and they botched it. I managed to get most of the paint problems fixed by basically standing over the guys working, but I am out $500 for damaged deck items and how much I have no idea for resealing windows they blasted with a power washer, assuming Pella can do the latter, cross fingers. I am eating the cost of the damages and I threw the contractor off the property.

I paid him for the work done but not the stuff I didn't let him do. It was less stress on me to do this and I was already very stressed out.

However, it sounds like your contractor accomplished nothing so you may have to resort to legal action.

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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:44 pm

mouses wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:32 pm
I would call the manufacturer and ask about the and the warranty, and if removing and reinstalling the shingles would fix this.

However, since this is one of a number of problems, I would discuss this all with the inspector and then get something in writing from the inspector. Then it's up to you if you want to give the apparently incompetent contractor a shot at doing the roof correctly or hiring a lawyer.

You have my sympathies. I had my house painted by a contractor with excellent references and they botched it. I managed to get most of the paint problems fixed by basically standing over the guys working, but I am out $500 for damaged deck items and how much I have no idea for resealing windows they blasted with a power washer, assuming Pella can do the latter, cross fingers. I am eating the cost of the damages and I threw the contractor off the property.

I paid him for the work done but not the stuff I didn't let him do. It was less stress on me to do this and I was already very stressed out.

However, it sounds like your contractor accomplished nothing so you may have to resort to legal action.
Thanks Mouses. Yeah, I think I got a 14k roof that covers a 600k house that is likely to fail in a few years and the shingle company will say sorry not our fault...

theplayer11
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by theplayer11 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:50 pm

fortfun wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:20 pm
welderwannabe wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:15 pm
Shingling over wet underlayment isn't ideal, but it isn't the end of the world either. It can take the water a while to evaporate trapped under shingles and that is the concern. I wouldn't do it with standing water on the roof, but I wouldn't sweat a damp roof because it rained earlier in the morning.

Weather never seems perfect whenever I have roofed. It is like God likes giving me a challenge.
They installed it immediately after receiving a 1/2" down pour. It was still raining when they went back to work. All the other roofers in our subdivision covered their roofs with tarps and stopped work. We are expecting our first freeze any day now and I doubt the water has had a chance to escape...
was ice and water shield applied?

Globalviewer58
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by Globalviewer58 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:56 pm

Contact the manufacturer to have their Tech Rep review the installation process steps that were performed. She can tell you whether the installation voids the warranty.

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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:56 pm

theplayer11 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:50 pm
fortfun wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:20 pm
welderwannabe wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:15 pm
Shingling over wet underlayment isn't ideal, but it isn't the end of the world either. It can take the water a while to evaporate trapped under shingles and that is the concern. I wouldn't do it with standing water on the roof, but I wouldn't sweat a damp roof because it rained earlier in the morning.

Weather never seems perfect whenever I have roofed. It is like God likes giving me a challenge.
They installed it immediately after receiving a 1/2" down pour. It was still raining when they went back to work. All the other roofers in our subdivision covered their roofs with tarps and stopped work. We are expecting our first freeze any day now and I doubt the water has had a chance to escape...
was ice and water shield applied?
I'd like to think so. Honestly, based on the rest of the work, I can't be certain...ugh..

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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:06 pm

Globalviewer58 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:56 pm
Contact the manufacturer to have their Tech Rep review the installation process steps that were performed. She can tell you whether the installation voids the warranty.
I'm going to work on that tomorrow morning. Application instructions clearly says must be installed on dry surface. Also says warranty voided if not installed according to application instructions. But, I plan to double check. Thanks.

JoeRetire
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by JoeRetire » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:12 pm

fortfun wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:56 pm
Should I email or call the contractor? Do I let him re-try, or do I just insist on another contractor? What else should I know? I haven't paid a penny yet. FYI, I have never had to back out of a contract and I sincerely wished this had turned out different. To complicate matters, I have solar panels that are sitting out in my yard that need to be re-installed.
Call the contractor.

If you don't get satisfaction, call your lawyer. Ask them to explain what a "mechanic's lien" is and what you should do about it.

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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by tibbitts » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:15 pm

fortfun wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:44 pm
mouses wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:32 pm
I would call the manufacturer and ask about the and the warranty, and if removing and reinstalling the shingles would fix this.

However, since this is one of a number of problems, I would discuss this all with the inspector and then get something in writing from the inspector. Then it's up to you if you want to give the apparently incompetent contractor a shot at doing the roof correctly or hiring a lawyer.

You have my sympathies. I had my house painted by a contractor with excellent references and they botched it. I managed to get most of the paint problems fixed by basically standing over the guys working, but I am out $500 for damaged deck items and how much I have no idea for resealing windows they blasted with a power washer, assuming Pella can do the latter, cross fingers. I am eating the cost of the damages and I threw the contractor off the property.

I paid him for the work done but not the stuff I didn't let him do. It was less stress on me to do this and I was already very stressed out.

However, it sounds like your contractor accomplished nothing so you may have to resort to legal action.
Thanks Mouses. Yeah, I think I got a 14k roof that covers a 600k house that is likely to fail in a few years and the shingle company will say sorry not our fault...
That's amazing $14k for a 600k house. I paid nearly $14k (well insurance did) many years ago for my $100k house. It leaked. Still does sometimes. Make sure you have matching ceiling paint no matter what. When mine was being installed I had to stop them to put in the required nails since they were doing one too few per shingle when they started the first row. But I needed to be more specific about the ice/water shield thing, my fault, I didn't get what I should have there I think.

I don't understand the inspector issue, is this an insurance inspector? No matter, how will they detect moisture under the roof now? Are you thinking they're going to count the nails?

Is this a major roofing company? If so I would not start with demanding you want the roof re-done, explain to the management what happened. Probably the people who put the roof on weren't even employees, and the person who managed them wasn't even an employee. Maybe they will offer something that will be a reasonable compromise. Remember if they re-roof again you might not accomplish a lot except end up with more flat tires - there could be other problems the next time. Also before you do anything check everything else - make sure the number and type of vents meet the warranty requirements, etc.

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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:34 pm

JoeRetire wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:12 pm
fortfun wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:56 pm
Should I email or call the contractor? Do I let him re-try, or do I just insist on another contractor? What else should I know? I haven't paid a penny yet. FYI, I have never had to back out of a contract and I sincerely wished this had turned out different. To complicate matters, I have solar panels that are sitting out in my yard that need to be re-installed.
Call the contractor.

If you don't get satisfaction, call your lawyer. Ask them to explain what a "mechanic's lien" is and what you should do about it.
Thanks Joe. Just looked up the attorney that is provided through my employer. I'll see what he says. Maybe it will all work out.

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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by ddurrett896 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:41 pm

fortfun wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:56 pm

Should I email or call the contractor? Do I let him re-try, or do I just insist on another contractor? What else should I know?
In my state, you have to let the contractor try to correct the issues first.

MindBogler
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by MindBogler » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:43 pm

What else is wrong with the installation? Installing over a damp surface is not the end of the world. Shingles aren't air tight and any water in there will work itself out in short order. They build elaborate homes in the rain all the time.

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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:49 pm

MindBogler wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:43 pm
What else is wrong with the installation? Installing over a damp surface is not the end of the world. Shingles aren't air tight and any water in there will work itself out in short order. They build elaborate homes in the rain all the time.
The starter course, one of the most important parts of the roof, was not secured properly. I can lift the first course of shingles off of the house 8" to 12" up before I hit a nail. My neighbors' shingles can only be lifted a 1/2".

The second bullet of the installation instructions indicate that the roof/underlayment MUST be dry before applying shingles. Seems pretty important to me, it is the second bullet.
https://www.gaf.com/en-us/document-libr ... french.pdf

1A of the warranty says that the warranty is voided if the application is not done in accordance to the instructions (see second bullet above).
https://www.gaf.com/en-us/document-libr ... rranty.pdf
Last edited by fortfun on Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:51 pm

ddurrett896 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:41 pm
fortfun wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:56 pm

Should I email or call the contractor? Do I let him re-try, or do I just insist on another contractor? What else should I know?
In my state, you have to let the contractor try to correct the issues first.
I'm not sure what the law says here. I'll talk to an attorney tomorrow. I'd like to take this route but have lost complete confidence in this company.

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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by MindBogler » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:56 pm

fortfun wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:49 pm
MindBogler wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:43 pm
What else is wrong with the installation? Installing over a damp surface is not the end of the world. Shingles aren't air tight and any water in there will work itself out in short order. They build elaborate homes in the rain all the time.
The starter course, one of the most important parts of the roof, was not secured properly. I can lift the first course of shingles off of the house 8" to 12" up before I hit a nail. My neighbors' houses can't be lifted a 1/2".

The second bullet of the installation instructions indicate that the roof/underlayment MUST be dry before applying shingles. Seems pretty important to me, it is the second bullet.
https://www.gaf.com/en-us/document-libr ... french.pdf

1A of the warranty says that the warranty is voided if the application is not done in accordance to the instructions (see second bullet above).
https://www.gaf.com/en-us/document-libr ... rranty.pdf
The dampness is not the concert. If you want my advice, focus on unsecured shingles because thats an issue. There should be a glue strip or similar to secure the first row. They should overhang the roof slightly. Look at the flashings and make sure they are installed correct. Don't focus on the water, it's not a major deal.

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FrugalInvestor
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by FrugalInvestor » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:02 pm

The fact that other roofers working at the same time in the same neighborhood stopped work and covered their roofs with tarps speaks volumes.
IGNORE the noise! | Our life is frittered away by detail... simplify, simplify. - Henry David Thoreau

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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:08 pm

FrugalInvestor wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:02 pm
The fact that other roofers working at the same time in the same neighborhood stopped work and covered their roofs with tarps speaks volumes.
Yes, that was my first clue that something was wrong...ugh...

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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:16 pm

MindBogler wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:56 pm
fortfun wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:49 pm
MindBogler wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:43 pm
What else is wrong with the installation? Installing over a damp surface is not the end of the world. Shingles aren't air tight and any water in there will work itself out in short order. They build elaborate homes in the rain all the time.
The starter course, one of the most important parts of the roof, was not secured properly. I can lift the first course of shingles off of the house 8" to 12" up before I hit a nail. My neighbors' houses can't be lifted a 1/2".

The second bullet of the installation instructions indicate that the roof/underlayment MUST be dry before applying shingles. Seems pretty important to me, it is the second bullet.
https://www.gaf.com/en-us/document-libr ... french.pdf

1A of the warranty says that the warranty is voided if the application is not done in accordance to the instructions (see second bullet above).
https://www.gaf.com/en-us/document-libr ... rranty.pdf
The dampness is not the concert. If you want my advice, focus on unsecured shingles because thats an issue. There should be a glue strip or similar to secure the first row. They should overhang the roof slightly. Look at the flashings and make sure they are installed correct. Don't focus on the water, it's not a major deal.
They botched the starter course, not even sure they used one. Can lift the shingles 8" to 12" in places. So that's not good. With the wet installation, I can't risk losing the lifetime warranty on the shingles themselves. We are expecting our first freeze any day now and there's not been enough warm weather to cook out the moisture that was trapped there.

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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by FrugalInvestor » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:37 pm

fortfun wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:16 pm
They botched the starter course, not even sure they used one. Can lift the shingles 8" to 12" in places. So that's not good. With the wet installation, I can't risk losing the lifetime warranty on the shingles themselves. We are expecting our first freeze any day now and there's not been enough warm weather to cook out the moisture that was trapped there.
The starter course should begin at the bottom edge so if I understand your comment correctly you don't have one.
IGNORE the noise! | Our life is frittered away by detail... simplify, simplify. - Henry David Thoreau

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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:44 pm

FrugalInvestor wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:37 pm
fortfun wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:16 pm
They botched the starter course, not even sure they used one. Can lift the shingles 8" to 12" in places. So that's not good. With the wet installation, I can't risk losing the lifetime warranty on the shingles themselves. We are expecting our first freeze any day now and there's not been enough warm weather to cook out the moisture that was trapped there.
The starter course should begin at the bottom edge so if I understand your comment correctly you don't have one.
Yes, I think you are correct.

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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by unclescrooge » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:11 pm

fortfun wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:04 pm
jminv wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:56 pm
In the prior thread, you said an inspector was going to come by and inspect the roof. Did it pass or not?

If it did pass, you need to get your own expert, like someone else mentioned above, to vouch for everything wrong with the roof. Otherwise, if it did pass inspection, the contractor will file a lien against your property and it will be your thoughts versus a roofer and an inspector.

If it didn't pass, then don't pay.
Inspection is tomorrow morning, unless the contractor cancels it, which wouldn't surprise me as he needs to fix the starter course. Currently, it is just glued down as a quick fix to try to get it to pass the inspection. His glue hasn't dried yet, so I'm sure it will still peel back way past the point where it's allowed. The bigger problem is that the shingles were installed over a wet surface. That won't show up in the inspection. However, he said they would be installed according to manufacturer's instructions, which it wasn't. I live in a area that receives frequent freezing and thawing. It sounds like the moisture trapped between the felt paper and shingle may become a major issue down the road but may not appear for several years.
Do you know what the manufacturer warranty actually covers?

If you think it'll cover a new roof in year 15, then I think you'll be disappointed. They will probably give you 5% of the cost whenever it fails and call it a day.

Making sure it's fine properly is probably more important than the warranty.

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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by Sandtrap » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:12 pm

1. Have you contacted the contractor and given his company and opportunity to remedy the situation?
2. Did the contractor respond to your complaints in a timely manner?
3. Do you have photographs of the installation in various stages, when it was raining, etc?
4. Is the contractor a roofing company with a current up to date contractor's license and insurance?
5. What size is the contractor's company? 1 owner with 1 truck and helpers?
6. Since you said that you paid nothing so far, did the contractor pay for the materials and require no down payment?
7. Do you have hard copy documentation of everything that has taken place from the time you had first contacted this contractor for the job, emails, etc?
8. Would you be satisfied if the contractor did a complete redo on the starter course per spec? Have you told him so?
9. If the contractor did zero, then you can with-hold all of the money. But the contractor did indeed roof the home, but not to satisfaction. So what is the % money withheld that a court would deem fair? If the contractor purchased the materials, then you would owe him that much at least, for now.

Some random thoughts to ponder:

There are a lot of recourses on your end and also on the contractor's end if he is not paid. (especially if he paid for the materials and you have not paid a dime yet for anything).
Litigation is often a long road to nowhere. Highly suggest making a strong effort to work with the contractor, have positive and actionable discussions. Sometimes being too quick and forcefully toward legal action can make things worse very fast and antagonize the situation. That can always be done in a few steps down the line.
In court, the judge often asks each party to "prove" that they had taken a number of steps to resolve the situation in good faith. And, the judgements are often somewhere in the middle. IE: you pay for roofing materials, the contractor does it again.

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cheese_breath
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by cheese_breath » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:21 pm

All I can add is if you do agree to have hmi do the job again, don't let him try using the same shingles. These will be ruined when they pull them off. Use nothing but brand new ones right out of the package.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:28 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:12 pm
1. Have you contacted the contractor and given his company and opportunity to remedy the situation?
--Doing that tonight.
2. Did the contractor respond to your complaints in a timely manner?
--He keeps telling me everything is fine. Nothing to worry about. Application instructions say otherwise.
3. Do you have photographs of the installation in various stages, when it was raining, etc?
--Sadly no. Wish I did. Neighbors witnessed everything.
4. Is the contractor a roofing company with a current up to date contractor's license and insurance?
--Yes, I believe so.
5. What size is the contractor's company? 1 owner with 1 truck and helpers?
--Pretty small but a bit bigger than that.
6. Since you said that you paid nothing so far, did the contractor pay for the materials and require no down payment?
--He said he would have me pay for the materials on delivery. He never collected.
7. Do you have hard copy documentation of everything that has taken place from the time you had first contacted this contractor for the job, emails, etc?
--Yes.
8. Would you be satisfied if the contractor did a complete redo on the starter course per spec? Have you told him so?
--That would be a good start. Doesn't address the moisture under the shingles.
9. If the contractor did zero, then you can with-hold all of the money. But the contractor did indeed roof the home, but not to satisfaction. So what is the % money withheld that a court would deem fair? If the contractor purchased the materials, then you would owe him that much at least, for now.
--His contract said he would install it strictly according to manufacturer's instructions. He did not.

Some random thoughts to ponder:

There are a lot of recourses on your end and also on the contractor's end if he is not paid. (especially if he paid for the materials and you have not paid a dime yet for anything).
Litigation is often a long road to nowhere. Highly suggest making a strong effort to work with the contractor, have positive and actionable discussions. Sometimes being too quick and forcefully toward legal action can make things worse very fast and antagonize the situation. That can always be done in a few steps down the line.
--I haven't told him that I'm pursuing legal action yet.
In court, the judge often asks each party to "prove" that they had taken a number of steps to resolve the situation in good faith. And, the judgements are often somewhere in the middle. IE: you pay for roofing materials, the contractor does it again.
--I'm willing to work with him. Wish I had never ended up here in the first place.
Answers above. Thanks sandtrap.

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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by cheese_breath » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:39 pm

fortfun wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:28 pm
Sandtrap wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:12 pm
1. Have you contacted the contractor and given his company and opportunity to remedy the situation?
--Doing that tonight.
2. Did the contractor respond to your complaints in a timely manner?
--He keeps telling me everything is fine. Nothing to worry about. Application instructions say otherwise.
3. Do you have photographs of the installation in various stages, when it was raining, etc?
--Sadly no. Wish I did. Neighbors witnessed everything.
4. Is the contractor a roofing company with a current up to date contractor's license and insurance?
--Yes, I believe so.
5. What size is the contractor's company? 1 owner with 1 truck and helpers?
--Pretty small but a bit bigger than that.
6. Since you said that you paid nothing so far, did the contractor pay for the materials and require no down payment?
--He said he would have me pay for the materials on delivery. He never collected.
7. Do you have hard copy documentation of everything that has taken place from the time you had first contacted this contractor for the job, emails, etc?
--Yes.
8. Would you be satisfied if the contractor did a complete redo on the starter course per spec? Have you told him so?
--That would be a good start. Doesn't address the moisture under the shingles.
9. If the contractor did zero, then you can with-hold all of the money. But the contractor did indeed roof the home, but not to satisfaction. So what is the % money withheld that a court would deem fair? If the contractor purchased the materials, then you would owe him that much at least, for now.
--His contract said he would install it strictly according to manufacturer's instructions. He did not.

Some random thoughts to ponder:

There are a lot of recourses on your end and also on the contractor's end if he is not paid. (especially if he paid for the materials and you have not paid a dime yet for anything).
Litigation is often a long road to nowhere. Highly suggest making a strong effort to work with the contractor, have positive and actionable discussions. Sometimes being too quick and forcefully toward legal action can make things worse very fast and antagonize the situation. That can always be done in a few steps down the line.
--I haven't told him that I'm pursuing legal action yet.
In court, the judge often asks each party to "prove" that they had taken a number of steps to resolve the situation in good faith. And, the judgements are often somewhere in the middle. IE: you pay for roofing materials, the contractor does it again.
--I'm willing to work with him. Wish I had never ended up here in the first place.
Answers above. Thanks sandtrap.
Re: Sandtrap's #9 above. By not following manufacturer's installation instructions the contractor voided GAF's guarantee. So what is the real value of the materials?
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

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fortfun
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by fortfun » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:50 pm

cheese_breath wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:39 pm
fortfun wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:28 pm
Sandtrap wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:12 pm
1. Have you contacted the contractor and given his company and opportunity to remedy the situation?
--Doing that tonight.
2. Did the contractor respond to your complaints in a timely manner?
--He keeps telling me everything is fine. Nothing to worry about. Application instructions say otherwise.
3. Do you have photographs of the installation in various stages, when it was raining, etc?
--Sadly no. Wish I did. Neighbors witnessed everything.
4. Is the contractor a roofing company with a current up to date contractor's license and insurance?
--Yes, I believe so.
5. What size is the contractor's company? 1 owner with 1 truck and helpers?
--Pretty small but a bit bigger than that.
6. Since you said that you paid nothing so far, did the contractor pay for the materials and require no down payment?
--He said he would have me pay for the materials on delivery. He never collected.
7. Do you have hard copy documentation of everything that has taken place from the time you had first contacted this contractor for the job, emails, etc?
--Yes.
8. Would you be satisfied if the contractor did a complete redo on the starter course per spec? Have you told him so?
--That would be a good start. Doesn't address the moisture under the shingles.
9. If the contractor did zero, then you can with-hold all of the money. But the contractor did indeed roof the home, but not to satisfaction. So what is the % money withheld that a court would deem fair? If the contractor purchased the materials, then you would owe him that much at least, for now.
--His contract said he would install it strictly according to manufacturer's instructions. He did not.

Some random thoughts to ponder:

There are a lot of recourses on your end and also on the contractor's end if he is not paid. (especially if he paid for the materials and you have not paid a dime yet for anything).
Litigation is often a long road to nowhere. Highly suggest making a strong effort to work with the contractor, have positive and actionable discussions. Sometimes being too quick and forcefully toward legal action can make things worse very fast and antagonize the situation. That can always be done in a few steps down the line.
--I haven't told him that I'm pursuing legal action yet.
In court, the judge often asks each party to "prove" that they had taken a number of steps to resolve the situation in good faith. And, the judgements are often somewhere in the middle. IE: you pay for roofing materials, the contractor does it again.
--I'm willing to work with him. Wish I had never ended up here in the first place.
Answers above. Thanks sandtrap.
Re: Sandtrap's #9 above. By not following manufacturer's installation instructions the contractor voided GAF's guarantee. So what is the real value of the materials?
Yes, that's my real concern at this point. They may be worthless at this point. That's the whole problem with this thing.

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FrugalInvestor
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by FrugalInvestor » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:16 pm

It may be worthwhile to call GAF and ask them to send a rep to talk with you in person and inspect the job.
IGNORE the noise! | Our life is frittered away by detail... simplify, simplify. - Henry David Thoreau

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Watty
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by Watty » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:55 pm

Your contract may have included an arbitration clause.

If so read the details of how that was specified in the contract and then ask the contractor if they want to go through arbitration to determine if a payment should be made or not.

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Sasquatch
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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by Sasquatch » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:20 am

After you have collected all your information to make a strong case..........

couldn’t you post a claim against their bond?

If they are licensed you could file a complaint.

File a complaint with the builders association / contractors board.

Hopefully the two of you can sit down and come to an agreement without taking these measures. IMHO that is the best way.

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Re: How to tell contractor you don't plan to pay him.

Post by neilpilot » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:06 am

I challenge the OP to actually find evidence that a shingle manufacturer has ever paid a meaningful warranty payment. I have a good friend who is with one of the top 2 roofing manufacturers and he says that their warranty is simply good marketing, since claims are as rare as unicorns.

Some online reading.....
http://www.roof.info/shingles/warranty.html

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fortfun
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What I learned from my roofing saga.

Post by fortfun » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:10 pm

[Thread merged into here, see below. --admin LadyGeek]

For those of you who followed my roofing saga on Sunday, it has been resolved. I will have a new roof installed by a different roofer.

Lessons learned:
1. Make sure you have a good contract that specifies the job will be done according to the manufacturer's specifications. If it is not, don't be afraid to have it fixed or completely redone. I was surprised at the number of people on this forum that thought this was an unreasonable request--as if the botched roofing job was somehow my fault.
2. Make arrangements to stay home from work and take pictures of the job as it progresses. Make sure the pictures match the manufacturer's instructions. You can download them from their website. Have a trusted friend take look at things. Let the installer know that you will photograph the project as it is installed and that you are serious about having the job done correctly.
3. When you see a mistake, speak up and insist the problem be fixed. If it can't, or they've tried without success, or made it worse, insist the project be redone.
4. No matter how much you've vetted the contractor, there's no guarantee it will turn out correct.
5. Despite the city/county inspectors having a reputation, mine were very helpful and included all of my concerns in the inspection. They were helpful on the phone and in person. Take advantage of these people if you can.
6. If you can purchase legal insurance through your work (or privately), consider doing that. I just signed up for ARAG for about $17/month. They assigned a nice local attorney that was very helpful. Luckily nothing went very far but it was nice to know that I had a lawyer for very little money.

Thanks for the support and suggestions on Sunday. Much appreciated.
Fortfun

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