Lexus vs. Mercedes

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neilpilot
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by neilpilot »

Alexa9 wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:40 am
I'm not saying OP is doing this but many people do. Your car says something about you whether you want it to or not. Subconsciously, this is how most people choose a car that fits their persona and there are surprisingly accurate stereotypes for each make and model. Luxury cars are mostly marketing and I cringe when I see people get sucked into it.
In the past I've owned a couple of water-cooled Porsche (944 and 928S); these aren't necessarily high performance, and were bought used and actually not expensive. Also have owned an older 500-series BMW and several Mercedes (2002 C240 and now a 2016 GLC300). I've owned other cars that have been reliable and not considered "luxury" (Sentra, Saturn Vue, VW Passat, etc). These were also good cars.

Based on the ride and performance of the "luxury" cars I've owned, I strongly disagree that the difference between my past Porsche/Mercedes/BMW and my Saturn/VW/Nissan experiences were "mostly marketing".

Have you ever owned a "luxury car"?

Edit: I didn't see Delemer's post until I wrote what turned out to be the identical same last line. :sharebeer
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monkey_business
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by monkey_business »

I don't get why some folks determine someone else's spending is wasteful because it doesn't match their own spending preferences. Look, every single person here wastes money on one thing or another. No exceptions. We all have different preferences and different things that make us happier. What seems wasteful to one is perfectly joyful to another. The only thing this site is trying to convey is that your finances should be in order while you "waste" money as you live life. How you "waste" it is entirely subjective.
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new2bogle
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by new2bogle »

For people that have owned Mercedes/BMW and also Lexus/Acura/Infiniti - is there a big difference in ride as a daily commuter car? My commute is about 30 mins each way, with maybe 70% of it being stop-n-go, rest on suburban streets. Is the ride of the german car that noticeable once the novelty wears off and you are just in your daily grind? (my brother says yes, but he get motion sickness really fast and so feeling each bump is very helpful for him).

The Charger I posted about earlier was bad enough in comfort and interior finish that after a month I was ready to give it up for my camry hybrid (but boy do I miss the power!). And for Alexa9, that was the only car I have ever driven where some dude at a stoplight looked over and said "nice car".
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Sandi_k
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by Sandi_k »

Alexa9 wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:40 am
I'm not saying OP is doing this but many people do. Your car says something about you whether you want it to or not. Subconsciously, this is how most people choose a car that fits their persona and there are surprisingly accurate stereotypes for each make and model. Luxury cars are mostly marketing and I cringe when I see people get sucked into it.
I had a Toyota, and then bought a Lexus. The "why" was simple - softer suspension for my surgically-repaired spine, and SIGNIFICANTLY better soundproofing. I HATE SQUEAKS AND RATTLES. My hearing is supremely sensitive, and it has been so nice to have a car - that I've now driven for nearly 9 years - still be so solid and squeak-free.

My understanding is that this is something that Lexus does as a business plan - thicker soundproofing on hood, on the firewall between the engine and the cabin, thicker, substantial rubber on window frames, additional material between cabin and roof, and many more fasteners on the interior door panels.

It works. And it's one reason I am likely to buy a Lexus again, when this car hits 250k miles. :shock:
FireSekr
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by FireSekr »

new2bogle wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:14 pm For people that have owned Mercedes/BMW and also Lexus/Acura/Infiniti - is there a big difference in ride as a daily commuter car? My commute is about 30 mins each way, with maybe 70% of it being stop-n-go, rest on suburban streets. Is the ride of the german car that noticeable once the novelty wears off and you are just in your daily grind? (my brother says yes, but he get motion sickness really fast and so feeling each bump is very helpful for him).

The Charger I posted about earlier was bad enough in comfort and interior finish that after a month I was ready to give it up for my camry hybrid (but boy do I miss the power!). And for Alexa9, that was the only car I have ever driven where some dude at a stoplight looked over and said "nice car".
I've had a Honda Accord, Accura TSX, BMW 328, BMW M3 and BMW 530. I've also daily driven a BRZ.

There is a huge difference between the BMWs and the Honda/Acura. I always thought the Acura was solid as a rock and had good seats and good ergonomics until I got the 328. The BMW had higher build quality, the seats were much more comfortable on my commute and longer drives, it's engine far smoother because its an i6 instead of the V6 used in the Hondas and Acuras, and the car felt much more balanced than the Acura. Going around curves on the highway or even local roads in the Acura, you can feel the weight (which is mostly over the front of the car in the Acura) shifting and pulling the car in the opposite direction of the curve (understeer). The BMWs have a 50/50 weight balance and they just go where you point them, they feel much more agile and balanced.

Aside from the better driving dynamics, the quality of the materials in the interior on the BMW are far higher than the Acura. Some of the plastics on the dashboard in the Acura felt cheap, although not as cheap as a toyota, but still cheap. Every part of the BMW has soft touch material. I should note my 328 was a 2011...the 2012-current 3 series model (F30) has a lower quality interior than the prior 3 series (E90). My 5 series is a 2017 and is agile for its size, but also the quietest car I've ever been in. It makes commuting very relaxing, and the car is still athletic. The seats in that are way better than the 3 series, which was way better than the Acura. Everything it does feels effortless. I also find BMWs iDrive system less distracting than Acura's system...BMW and Audi have the least distracting best designed infotainment systems. Lexus is definitely the worst and Mercedes is not much better.

My Acura was a great car, but nowhere near the level of performance and refinement of the BMW. Does that make a difference on a 30 minute commute? For me it absolutely did and that's why I got a $65k 5 series last year instead of a $40k Acura. And honestly, looking at the new Accord, I'd be more inclined to go with that than for spring for the Acura...the gap between the Honda and Acura is not even close to the gap between Acura and BMW.
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new2bogle
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by new2bogle »

ssquared87 wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:33 pm
new2bogle wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:14 pm For people that have owned Mercedes/BMW and also Lexus/Acura/Infiniti - is there a big difference in ride as a daily commuter car? My commute is about 30 mins each way, with maybe 70% of it being stop-n-go, rest on suburban streets. Is the ride of the german car that noticeable once the novelty wears off and you are just in your daily grind? (my brother says yes, but he get motion sickness really fast and so feeling each bump is very helpful for him).

The Charger I posted about earlier was bad enough in comfort and interior finish that after a month I was ready to give it up for my camry hybrid (but boy do I miss the power!). And for Alexa9, that was the only car I have ever driven where some dude at a stoplight looked over and said "nice car".
I've had a Honda Accord, Accura TSX, BMW 328, BMW M3 and BMW 530. I've also daily driven a BRZ.

There is a huge difference between the BMWs and the Honda/Acura. I always thought the Acura was solid as a rock and had good seats and good ergonomics until I got the 328. The BMW had higher build quality, the seats were much more comfortable on my commute and longer drives, it's engine far smoother because its an i6 instead of the V6 used in the Hondas and Acuras, and the car felt much more balanced than the Acura. Going around curves on the highway or even local roads in the Acura, you can feel the weight (which is mostly over the front of the car in the Acura) shifting and pulling the car in the opposite direction of the curve (understeer). The BMWs have a 50/50 weight balance and they just go where you point them, they feel much more agile and balanced.

Aside from the better driving dynamics, the quality of the materials in the interior on the BMW are far higher than the Acura. Some of the plastics on the dashboard in the Acura felt cheap, although not as cheap as a toyota, but still cheap. Every part of the BMW has soft touch material. I should note my 328 was a 2011...the 2012-current 3 series model (F30) has a lower quality interior than the prior 3 series (E90). My 5 series is a 2017 and is agile for its size, but also the quietest car I've ever been in. It makes commuting very relaxing, and the car is still athletic. The seats in that are way better than the 3 series, which was way better than the Acura. Everything it does feels effortless. I also find BMWs iDrive system less distracting than Acura's system...BMW and Audi have the least distracting best designed infotainment systems. Lexus is definitely the worst and Mercedes is not much better.

My Acura was a great car, but nowhere near the level of performance and refinement of the BMW. Does that make a difference on a 30 minute commute? For me it absolutely did and that's why I got a $65k 5 series last year instead of a $40k Acura. And honestly, looking at the new Accord, I'd be more inclined to go with that than for spring for the Acura...the gap between the Honda and Acura is not even close to the gap between Acura and BMW.
Thank you sir/ma'am. Your analysis makes a lot of sense to me.
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by stimulacra »

Alexa9 wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:40 am
delamer wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:19 am Why do you make the assumption that OP is “trying to convey something to other people?”
Luxury cars are mostly marketing and I cringe when I see people get sucked into it.
I'd say this is 80% true. VW/Audi's MQB and MLB platforms are a good example of car makers using a Legos-like strategy to manufacture mass-market cars and luxury cars from essentially the same bin of parts. The VW Touareg, Audi Q5/Q7, Porsche Cayenne, Bentley Bentayga and the Lamborghini Urus are all built from the same common platform. I get a chuckle any time I see them side by side on the street.

Where I think Alexa9's statement rings most true are low-end entries like Mercedes Benz's GLA subcompact crossover. It has a shared platform with Nissan and Infiniti and is in fact mechanically identical to the QX30. Share that little tidbit with a GLA owner who thinks their new lease shares DNA with a G-wagen and see how they react.
Nissanzx1
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by Nissanzx1 »

I'd get the Lexus. That's advice coming from a E350 Owner. Try to avoid turbos and anything with air ride suspensions.

Synthetic oil every 5-6k, don't do the silly 10K intervals...
H-Town
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by H-Town »

Nissanzx1 wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:09 pm I'd get the Lexus. That's advice coming from a E350 Owner. Try to avoid turbos and anything with air ride suspensions.

Synthetic oil every 5-6k, don't do the silly 10K intervals...
With newer model nowadays, changing synthetic oil every 5-6k is like throwing money down the drain. It's not difficult to look at the car manual and follow the instructions.
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by Nissanzx1 »

H-Town wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:15 pm
Nissanzx1 wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:09 pm I'd get the Lexus. That's advice coming from a E350 Owner. Try to avoid turbos and anything with air ride suspensions.

Synthetic oil every 5-6k, don't do the silly 10K intervals...
With newer model nowadays, changing synthetic oil every 5-6k is like throwing money down the drain. It's not difficult to look at the car manual and follow the instructions.
To clarify- I would recommend changing oil with synthetic every 5-6K miles. I have 4 cars with high miles (daily has 264K) and the reason they run forever is quality oil changed often. I've never had an engine failure. It's not throwing money down a drain, it's money well spent. Go past, 7-8k and your flirting with trouble IMHO. You'll also get a guy like me to pass on your car when you try and sell it someday...
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by squirm »

Alexa9 wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:40 am
delamer wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:19 am Why do you make the assumption that OP is “trying to convey something to other people?”
I'm not saying OP is doing this but many people do. Your car says something about you whether you want it to or not. Subconsciously, this is how most people choose a car that fits their persona and there are surprisingly accurate stereotypes for each make and model. Luxury cars are mostly marketing and I cringe when I see people get sucked into it.
The gas guzzling Hummer is suppose to convey an image of strength and stamina, but the guys that always get out of them look like they've never stepped foot in a gym.
visualguy
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by visualguy »

ssquared87 wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:35 pm It's only a mistake if you can't afford it...what's the point of having money if you're not going to use it for things that improve the quality of your life? Whatever psychological study shows this probably tested people with no soul...I have too much life in me to drive something as bland as a Toyota.
+1

Assuming you can afford it, a nicer car actually gives a lot of pleasure for the money. It's one of the few things where spending the extra money enhances your experience on a daily basis over a period of years.
multiham
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by multiham »

I think you've received a lot of good advice. I already replied on my thoughts on how to compare costs. I'm going to use words that typically are not used by those that review cars for a living.

Lexus - Really reliable. Rides like you are floating on a cloud. Steering is a little soft which means to me that there is a little play in the wheel. Turn the wheel right, it will go right, but not at the angle the same amount of steering gets you in a BMW or Mercedes. Very forgiving ride. If I'm traveling 2 to 3 hours away from home and am not looking for an overly spirited ride, Lexus would be my choice. Surround yourself in comfort and the ride is not fatiguing. You do not "feel" the speed you are going. Many times I have looked down and been surprised that I was doing 75 or 80. Thought I was going 65.

BMW - This is about the 3 or 4 class. I have no experience with the 5 class or higher. When you turn the wheel, it goes hard into the turn. Very little if any body roll. Feels like you are somewhat connected to road. After awhile, I can tell how fast I am going by the feel of the wheel and the sound of the engine. More spirited than Lexus to me unless you get an F-Sport from Lexus. Most of the cars are all wheel drive which will help in certain driving situations. Ride to me can be a bit more fatiguing than Lexus if you are not looking for a fun ride (curves and opportunities to open engine up a bit).

Mercedes - Talking about 300 series. To me, these cars are right between the BMW and Lexus. I think they have more comfortable seats and interiors than the BMW, but not quite as "Nice" of a ride as a Lexus. Feel the road more in a Mercedes than in a Lexus, but not actively engaged like the BMW. Not nearly as much fun for me to drive as a BMW, but overall a nicer. less fatiguing ride. Now if we were talking about an S class, I would feel different.

Just one persons opinion.
Trism
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by Trism »

No one looks back at their life and wishes they had spent more time driving a Honda Fit.
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Will do good
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by Will do good »

GT99 wrote: Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:19 am When it comes to reliability, people's perceptions tend to not change as reality changes - in this case, BMW has been rated higher than Mercedes in reliability pretty consistently the last several years. In fact, both Consumer Reports and JD Power have BMW rated higher than Honda for reliability.

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-rel ... -stack-up/
http://www.autonews.com/article/2018021 ... endability

That said, Lexus has been at the top in reliability for a long time, so if you're otherwise having a hard time making up your mind, I'd say go Lexus.
+1
My 2004 BMW 530i (130K+ miles) been super reliable, I think all I done was oil changes and break pad?
YMMV :wink:
Reubin
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by Reubin »

Lexus all day and any day. If you buy a used Mercedes you will be working for your car.
wootwoot
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by wootwoot »

2016 Audi S4 CPO, same price, extended warranty, AWD, supercharged V6, DSG transmission, much nicer interior than competitors, a perfect blend of luxury and performance

/Thread
msk
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by msk »

Over the past 40 years I have owned top-of-the-range Mercedes, Lexus, BMW, Porsche, Jaguar. The obvious: expensive cars are expensive to maintain. Live with it or don't play. Just go price properly speed-specced tires for a Porsche... Except for the Jaguar XJ12, all mine were reliable. OK, that's history. Currently I own a 2018 Mercedes S560L and a 2018 Lexus LS 500, both fully loaded with electronic whiz bangs. Both have excessively frustrating Navigation systems. I am resigned to using my phone to actually find anything and then enter it into the Nav of the car. My S560L cost 1.7x as much as the LS500. To me, even comparing these two ultra-luxe barges (though both capable of 0-60 in 4.6 seconds) demonstrates what fantastic value Lexus are. Of course, I also expect the annual maintenance bills to defer by 1.7x. The cars these two replaced were a 10-year old Lexus LS460 and a 5-year old Lexus ES350. Only annoying issue between the two of them was the interior non-leather, black, vinyl panels of the LS460; started sweating at about age 8 years when the car was left in the sun a long time. Apparently a known defect in black-leather Lexus from about 10 years ago. Lexus replaced the entire lot of vinyl panels for free! just before I replaced it with the LS500. For headache-free, luxury motoring at a "reasonable" price, go Lexus. Always keep in mind the price of the model when new. In my experience that's a pretty good indicator of how much the annual maintenance will cost. It would be silly to expect that the maintenance on a $25k old model Mercedes S-class to cost anywhere as low as that on a brand new Toyota Camry.
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by jharkin »

OP-

Like every thread around here, this thread is full of brand loyalists who will tell their favorite brand is best based on [insert personal anecdote] and the data is wrong for [insert reason]. People who think German parts are “cheap” because they conveniently compare aftermarket generic discount vendor parts to Japanese OEM dealer retail. People who think they know better about maintenance intervals than the engineers who designed their car and extra oil changes are a magic bullet against any failures. And so forth...

So I hope you have your grain pound of salt handy...

Bottom line: if reliability and cost to own is your priority, the long term data IS clear, go look for yourself at JD Power, Consumer Reports, TrueDelta . You can use Edmonds and KBB to resale values and cost to own. Look at trends for the entire line over the last 20 years, not just the last year or one model.
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Alexa9
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by Alexa9 »

daveydoo wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:06 am
There is no way to do this study correctly, so I promise you it has not been done. Comparing buyers would tell you nothing -- because different people buy these vehicles. You wanna randomize it? Gonna cost you a lot of cars, friend!
https://phys.org/news/2011-07-consumers ... -cars.html

"Almost everyone assumes that driving a luxury car is more enjoyable than driving an economy car, but the reality is more complicated," said Norbert Schwarz, professor of marketing at Michigan's Ross School of Business. "When drivers focus on their car while driving, a luxury car is indeed more fun than an economy car. But most of the time, the driver's mind is preoccupied with the mundane issues of daily life and the car makes little difference."

"During the test drive of a new car, our attention is focused on the car, and the more luxurious it is, the better we feel while driving it. This experience is real, visceral and compelling. What we miss, however, is one simple thing—once we have owned the car for a few weeks, it no longer captures all of our attention and other things will be on our minds while driving. As soon as that happens, we would feel just as well driving a cheaper alternative."


There are a lot of people laughing at you when you say a luxury car drives the same as any other. Many people can't tell butter from margarine, or fresh vegetables from canned. Those people should put margarine on their canned vegetables and leave the rest of us alone. But when they insist that it all. tastes. the. same -- they are saying more about themselves than they are about the products. Yes, some luxury cars (think Lexus) may not excite a driver. I don't buy those. But others are more driver-oriented and it's apples-and-oranges vs a Camry. If you think a BMW is the same as a Camry, buy a Camry.
Sure a BMW drives better. It's still a poor financial move no matter how you look at it even if you can afford it.

My informal assessment from driving behind a variety of cars is that many-to-most Toyota drivers (not BH, of course) simply can't drive. If there is a bend in the road, they slam on the brakes. They do not use mirrors or signal intentions. They operate their vehicles in a dense zone of obliviousness. It is either the sheer concentration required to keep the shiny side up or perhaps a complete preoccupation with other facets of life or with in-car distractions. I do not expect those people to appreciate or even recognize a car with taut steering that stays flat in a tight curve.
BMW drivers are consistently ranked the worst drivers.

I can't appreciate a great pair of skis. It would be the height of arrogance, imo, for me to infer that all skis are therefore the same and that only a fool buys anything but the cheapest skis.
Maybe if you bought a Camry you could buy nicer things that actually bring you happiness like trips to Colorado and nice skis.

Even on a "financial forum," one needs to make defensible arguments; if every conversation just defaulted to "cheapest is always best," there really wouldn't be a need for a forum.
Cheapest is not always the best. Of course it's up to you to waste your money on a car if you'd like. If you buy 10 BMW's over your life time vs. 10 Toyotas you will discover that the Toyota will give you significantly more money in your accounts to buy things that actually improve your life
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Alexa9
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by Alexa9 »

JackoC wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:41 am In places you have stated this sort of opinion or yours as an opinion. I think people react less well to the cases where you pretend it's a fact.
I listed a study that supports my statements
https://phys.org/news/2011-07-consumers ... -cars.html


I don't see cars as categorically more of a 'statement' than anything else.
Brand image is a big factor in choosing a car probably more than anything else

And it's non factual to say more expensive car models don't do anything that cheaper ones don't or don't do as well, at least as a general statement.
For the majority of people, a car is something to get you from point A to B

The question is always how the improvements stack up v the marginal cost, where to almost everyone there is a *diminishing return* to higher priced cars, not a zero return in general. Everybody gets off that ladder at *some* point besides the people signing up for limited edition Bugatti's at several $mil, or I guess they could have a car custom designed. But for everyone else it's a similar process where I for example did not think a new Porsche 911 4S was worth twice as much to me as a new BMW M2 so I got an M2, but didn't get a Subaru BRZ for around half the M2 because I think the M2 really does enough more; or somebody comparing a Lexus ES with a Camry, or a 911 4S with a Lamborgini. Same basic idea all three cases. It's in general hyperbole to say 'you get nothing more for that extra money'. It's just not necessarily enough more, depending one's preferences and what other financial trade offs (if any) one has to make to spend more.
Yes, it's good to have choices at different prices, but you still get suckered in by car companies marketing. A Porsche and a Camry are not much different in rush hour traffic. If it's your hobby to go to the track, I admit that is different.

'It's a financial forum', but the contradiction on a financial forum would actually be pseudo-moralistic opposition to materialism regardless of a person's means. If one is really opposed to (themselves or others) seeking enjoyment from material things why focus on accumulating money? Investing is a form of that. One can just give the money away, now, and not be bothered with it or at least give away any money past a certain point. Just say so if that's the idea. An absolute, as if fact, statement 'it's a waste' to buy higher tier goods is the contradiction with 'forum about accumulating money', IMO.
There are better things to spend your money on to enrich you and your family's life according to psychological studies. Are you going to remember a Lexus or a trip to Hawaii with your family on your deathbed?
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by squirm »

Maybe some people enjoy driving (maybe you're retired) but I can't no matter what the car I'm driving. I put 35k to 40k miles per year on our cars. Almost every one on those miles sucks, because there are too many idiot drivers on the road playing with their phones during congested commute. So my wife and I have resigned to just drive a car that gets us to point a to point b safely.
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by Cyclesafe »

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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by Tycoon »

Alexa9 wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:09 am Are you going to remember a Lexus or a trip to Hawaii with your family on your deathbed?[/color]
Not to derail this thread, but this made me think. Cars and vacations are not something I'll will remember on my deathbed. Neither made lasting impressions like the birth of my children, or the first time they spoke, or the joy in my wife's eyes when she first held them.

As far as Lexus or Mercedes? It depends.
Emotionless, prognostication free investing. Ignoring the noise and economists since 1979. Getting rich off of "smart people's" behavioral mistakes.
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2pedals
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by 2pedals »

squirm wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:14 am Maybe some people enjoy driving (maybe you're retired) but I can't no matter what the car I'm driving. I put 35k to 40k miles per year on our cars. Almost every one on those miles sucks, because there are too many idiot drivers on the road playing with their phones during congested commute. So my wife and I have resigned to just drive a car that gets us to point a to point b safely.
I feel the same way about driving. I would be very unhappy if one of those idiot drivers damaged my nice Lexus or Mercedes. I live in one of the worst traffic areas in the country. Some people buy a nice car for the weekends. For me I have done enough driving in traffic to know even on the weekends the traffic is bad, this weekend is no exception. So I would rather just get my bicycle out. I enjoy that so much more anyway.
Last edited by 2pedals on Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
michaeljc70
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by michaeljc70 »

Most of these types of threads are nugatory. Of course the Lexus will cost less to maintain. Styling, handling, image, comfort, priorities, etc. are all subjective.
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BolderBoy
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by BolderBoy »

michaeljc70 wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:49 am Most of these types of threads are nugatory. Of course the Lexus will cost less to maintain. Styling, handling, image, comfort, priorities, etc. are all subjective.
I read threads like this for the word-a-day experience.

Now to go look up "nugatory"...
"Never underestimate one's capacity to overestimate one's abilities" - The Dunning-Kruger Effect
squirm
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by squirm »

2pedals wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:41 am
squirm wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:14 am Maybe some people enjoy driving (maybe you're retired) but I can't no matter what the car I'm driving. I put 35k to 40k miles per year on our cars. Almost every one on those miles sucks, because there are too many idiot drivers on the road playing with their phones during congested commute. So my wife and I have resigned to just drive a car that gets us to point a to point b safely.
I feel the same way about driving. I would be very unhappy if one of those idiot drivers damaged my nice Lexus or Mercedes. I live in one of the worst traffic areas in the country. Some people buy a nice car for the weekends. For me I have done enough driving in traffic to know even on the weekends the traffic is bad, this weekend is no exception. So I would rather just get my bicycle out. I enjoy that so much more anyway.
I just drove home late yesterday at 9PM (2 hour drive from my mothers), traffic sucked half way through. I worry very much about my wife and kids when they're in the car with me, I try to drive extra careful (I worry more when my wife has to drive alone). The other issue is we get the carpool lane for work, but half the idiots in the carpool lane shouldn't be there. Worse are the ones that feel they own the carpool lane (and their solo) and literally get a few feet away from my bumper. Because of that, unfortunately I get very angry very fast esp if I feel someone is putting my wife and kids at risk - I'll probably end up doing road rage one day as my wife says.

It's all very frustrating, driving isn't fun at all unless I drive on our country roads at home. I envy those who can enjoy their commute to and from work, I can't and don't. But after driving probably close to a million miles in my life, there's too many close calls and I doubt it will get any better with half of drivers playing on their phones now. Just learning the other day a coworker got mangled up pretty bad because the girl driving a pickup behind him was texting and slammed into him when traffic came to a stop, of course she was fine.
daveydoo
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by daveydoo »

Alexa9 wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:21 am
https://phys.org/news/2011-07-consumers ... -cars.html

"Almost everyone assumes that driving a luxury car is more enjoyable than driving an economy car, but the reality is more complicated," said Norbert Schwarz, professor of marketing at Michigan's Ross School of Business. "When drivers focus on their car while driving, a luxury car is indeed more fun than an economy car. But most of the time, the driver's mind is preoccupied with the mundane issues of daily life and the car makes little difference."

"During the test drive of a new car, our attention is focused on the car, and the more luxurious it is, the better we feel while driving it. This experience is real, visceral and compelling. What we miss, however, is one simple thing—once we have owned the car for a few weeks, it no longer captures all of our attention and other things will be on our minds while driving. As soon as that happens, we would feel just as well driving a cheaper alternative."

Did you read the "study" or just the conclusion? Because it was done like this:

...Schwarz and Xu asked U-M students how intensely they would feel each of 10 positive or negative emotions while driving a BMW, a Honda Accord or a Ford Escort. Consistent with widely shared intuitions, the students expected the intensity of their positive feelings to increase with the value of the car, relying on general knowledge of what it must feel like to drive a luxury car.

Next, the researchers asked other survey respondents (not students) what kind of car they drive and how they usually feel while driving it. Similar to the students, these drivers reported more positive emotions the more valuable their car was. The students' hedonic predictions appeared right on target, although many had never driven the cars they made predictions about.

However, other survey respondents were asked to recall their most recent commute to work or the last time they drove their cars for at least 20 minutes, regardless of the nature of the trip. They were then asked how they felt while driving during those specific trips. Only at the end of the survey were they asked what kind of car they drive. In this case, the value of the car made no difference in drivers' reports of how they felt...


Survey-based "perceptions" research like this is almost meaningless. Like I said, the right study can not be done and never will be done. "How much joy did you experience during your last commute?" Maybe Car & Driver and Consumer Reports should replace their scores with this one question? That would prove all cars are truly the same. Maybe we should ask marathoners how they feel at the end of the race, and the happiest is declared the best runner. People don't buy luxury or performance cars with the expectation that they will be happy whenever they're in their car. I'd rather drive a beater to the beach than a performance car to work -- but I don't have that choice. There's no way to control for what else was occupying folks' minds or where they were going; plenty of high earners have stressful work environments.

Even if you accept this awful study (Go Blue!), you'd note that drivers' global perceptions of their car was completely in line with expectations (middle paragraph), just not on their most recent drive. My most recent interaction with my spouse was not my best and was not the reason I married her. But there are an awful lot of good times. :D

And, of course, how I remember I felt on my last commute says very little about whether a BMW drives better than a Toyota or is even different from a Toyota. When I need to drive a lower-performing loaner or rental, that's pretty much all I'm forced to think about during the drive. Like using a keyboard where one key sticks -- you can forget about it for a little bit until you need it to do what it's supposed to.

I truly get that you think all cars are the same and everyone else lacks your clarity and purity of thought. But I enjoy my fantasy world where I perceive that my car is quicker and better-handling. I don't smile ear-to-ear on every commute but five years into ownership, I know there are moments or minutes in every drive -- no matter how short -- where I'm truly impressed with what my car can do. And it's a joy to get back into it after driving something else.
"I mean, it's one banana, Michael...what could it cost? Ten dollars?"
JackoC
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by JackoC »

Alexa9 wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:09 am
JackoC wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:41 am In places you have stated this sort of opinion or yours as an opinion. I think people react less well to the cases where you pretend it's a fact.
1. I listed a study that supports my statements
https://phys.org/news/2011-07-consumers ... -cars.html


I don't see cars as categorically more of a 'statement' than anything else.
2. Brand image is a big factor in choosing a car probably more than anything else

And it's non factual to say more expensive car models don't do anything that cheaper ones don't or don't do as well, at least as a general statement.
3. For the majority of people, a car is something to get you from point A to B

The question is always how the improvements stack up v the marginal cost, where to almost everyone there is a *diminishing return* to higher priced cars, not a zero return in general. Everybody gets off that ladder at *some* point ...
Yes, it's good to have choices at different prices, but you still get suckered in by car companies marketing. A Porsche and a Camry are not much different in rush hour traffic. If it's your hobby to go to the track, I admit that is different.

'It's a financial forum', but the contradiction on a financial forum would actually be pseudo-moralistic opposition to materialism regardless of a person's means...There are better things to spend your money on to enrich you and your family's life according to psychological studies. Are you going to remember a Lexus or a trip to Hawaii with your family on your deathbed?
1. I think you should direct some of the same skepticism you do at car brand marketing (with some reason I admit) to social 'science' studies. Even if they were scientifically rigorous (tend to be experimental analogs to the behavior targeted, not real life) they'd only apply in most people, not everyone.
2. There is no objective way to measure this for a given buyer.
3. The majority of people can do as they like. And I view the majority of cars as just ways to get from A to B so I guess they do. That says nothing about it being the 'wrong' view if you want your car to be more or different than that.
4. If all driving were in rush hour traffic or on the track that might be valid. But might not be even then: I like driving the M2 on congested roads around my house. When we take our other car out locally, 'the beater', I don't even drive. But on the right roads the M2 is a blast, legally, and the beater stays home. Somewhere further up that diminishing returns ladder, along the pathway of performance, yes IMO there are (more expensive) cars which are too frustrating if driven legally. M2 is not one IMO.
5. I positively dislike long distance air travel. Otherwise I could joke: Lexus or Hawaii?, OK maybe Hawaii, M2 or Hawaii? M2. Family relationships aren't about spending money, period, IMO, different topic. As far as choosing consumption options between cars and travel, my wife likes some travel so I go. There's no trade off for us between one M2 and some travel. If I wanted Jay Leno's Garage and she wanted continuous globe trotting on private jets we'd both have to be disappointed. It depends on means, which is something 'studies' almost never take into account, and among the reasons they are suspect in general IMO, but inherently suspect to making *one's own* decisions.
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by neilpilot »

Alexa9 wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:21 am
daveydoo wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:06 am

I can't appreciate a great pair of skis. It would be the height of arrogance, imo, for me to infer that all skis are therefore the same and that only a fool buys anything but the cheapest skis.
Maybe if you bought a Camry you could buy nicer things that actually bring you happiness like trips to Colorado and nice skis.

Even on a "financial forum," one needs to make defensible arguments; if every conversation just defaulted to "cheapest is always best," there really wouldn't be a need for a forum.
Cheapest is not always the best. Of course it's up to you to waste your money on a car if you'd like. If you buy 10 BMW's over your life time vs. 10 Toyotas you will discover that the Toyota will give you significantly more money in your accounts to buy things that actually improve your life
Maybe it's a valid argument that if some of us buys a BMW over a Toyota, we will therefore have less money available to take a ski vacation or make other discretionary purchases. I certainly think that there some here who would buy a luxury car with funds that would otherwise be available for other important purchases.

But I'm sure many of us have sufficient funds to buy that luxury car and also take the ski trip. Many of us may have never had a car note, and don't have a mortgage.

I fly my own aircraft on many trips. Before you assume that I'm wealthy, realize that the acquisition cost of my airplane is likely less that most of the luxury cars being discussed here. The operating cost per mile is often higher than an airline ticket, and so it would be easy to say that's it's foolish to own an aircraft. I could save money if I would travel less and stick to my auto or the airlines. But I enjoy the freedom and activity when I fly myself, even more than I prefer driving my Mercedes over my Saturn.

Maybe the point of participating in this "financial forum" is make smart investment decisions (such as not paying a FA) so we can afford the BMW over a Toyota and ALSO take that ski vacation (or whatever).
2015
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by 2015 »

neilpilot wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:43 pm
Alexa9 wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:21 am
daveydoo wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:06 am

...

But I'm sure many of us have sufficient funds to buy that luxury car and also take the ski trip. Many of us may have never had a car note, and don't have a mortgage.

...
That would be me, although I have no interest in taking a ski trip (an over water bungalow stay in the Maldives is another story). I don't need a "study" to tell me the thought that I would enjoy driving a Camry as much as a Mercedes is comical to me. YMMV.

Interestingly, I have always thought Lexus makes just the ugliest cars, and would never own one until the body styles change. YMMV.
FireSekr
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by FireSekr »

2015 wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:19 pm
neilpilot wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:43 pm
Alexa9 wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:21 am
daveydoo wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:06 am

...

But I'm sure many of us have sufficient funds to buy that luxury car and also take the ski trip. Many of us may have never had a car note, and don't have a mortgage.

...
That would be me, although I have no interest in taking a ski trip (an over water bungalow stay in the Maldives is another story). I don't need a "study" to tell me the thought that I would enjoy driving a Camry as much as a Mercedes is comical to me. YMMV.

Interestingly, I have always thought Lexus makes just the ugliest cars, and would never own one until the body styles change. YMMV.
And me as well. I currently have two BMWs and up until last year, took many ski trips to Vail, Jackson Hole, Whistler, and Snobird. I wasn’t able to ski last season because I’m dealing with an injury, not because I paid for two BMWs instead of a single Camry.
PinotGris
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by PinotGris »

In response to OP,
We currently have 3 Lexus all ES. One is 15 years old and is beautiful shape body wise but has issues now after 200000 miles. My husband drives it every day, within the town. He is retired, no more commutes.
The other one 10 years old and we are giving it our son, who teaches in Alabama. It has 100000 miles on it.
The 3rd is brand new which I drive. I love it, the new safety features, the technology, the comfort, the illumination everything. I feel pampered every time I drive it. We got one without the navigation package and I use my Garmin.
Our maintenance cost and the trip for service have been minimal.
visualguy
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by visualguy »

Alexa9 wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:43 pm Some people are missing the point that it's not can you afford it, it's should you really buy it? The majority of millionaires still drive humble Fords, Hondas, and Toyotas. They're smart and realize that luxury vehicles are for gullible people (mostly men) that want to project an image of wealth when in reality it just shows that you like to waste your money on cars which is totally your right.

https://www.daveramsey.com/blog/cars-we ... ople-drive
It doesn't sound like you've ever owned fun cars like the 911, Cayman, BMW M cars, Mercedes AMG cars, Tesla P100D, etc. Driving them is quite an experience. If money is not an issue, why not? It's fun. Enjoy it while you are in good health. If cars are not something you enjoy, that's fine, but many love the experience they get from a 911, a Corvette, an M3, etc. Even fairly basic 5-series or E-Class cars are a lot nicer to drive than something like a regular Toyota.
Wakefield1
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by Wakefield1 »

new2bogle wrote: Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:37 am I will be buying myself a new used car sometime in the next few months. Right now I am deciding between a 2016 GS 350 or an E350. These seem to be in the $30k-$35k range right now which is what I want to spend. (I'm open to an IS also, but not a C-class). My major concern is long term costs. We have owned a Lexus RX350 in the past and it had absolutely no issues and regular maintenance (even at Lexus dealership) was not expensive. Reliability on a Lexus is very good.

How about reliability for a 2016/2017 E class Mercedes? There is nothing that I hate more than a car that breaks down (which is why I've only bought Toyota branded Vehicles since 2002, except for the '15 odyssey). Reliability is why I'm not even going to look at a BMW. Audi could be an option, but except for the Q5, I don't like the body style (personal preference: Q3 is too small, Q7 too big, and I don't like the way their sedans look). Again though, I am utterly terrified of reliability.

My family has owned Toyotas pretty much since they debuted in the U.S. Except, my brother is on his second BMW (3 series) and he said the first one had no real issues, but a couple of times he had to take it in for electrical problems (under new car warranty).

What does the boglehead crowd say about GS vs. E-class?
My impression (and I haven't driven one of those cars since ferrying one of them for someone over 20 years ago) for what little it matters is that the Lexus gives as much quality and performance (and probably easier upkeep/fewer services) for less money than the entry and mid level BMW and Mercedes,but when it comes to the top of the line Mercedes and BMW : There is no substitute :D
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Re: Lexus vs. Mercedes

Post by LadyGeek »

I removed a number of off-topic posts and replies, continuity is lost. See: General Etiquette
We expect this forum to be a place where people can feel comfortable asking questions and where debates and discussions are conducted in civil tones.
This thread has run its course and is locked (contentious disagreement).
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