Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

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imyeti2
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Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by imyeti2 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:21 am

Hello,
We're in the process of replacing our older toilets and would like to get some guidance.
(1) Since we're changing everything, is it worthwhile to change the shut off valve also. They are the old rotating types. Was interested in getting the new quarter turn valves. Nothing wrong with the older ones. Plumbers advises to keep as is. Why fix it ain't broke. Any benefits to the newer ones and doing it now?
(2) Does anyone have experience with the new waxless rings? Like the green Sani Seal. Again, plumber recommends sticking to the old standard rings. However, have heard good things about the new ones. Any thoughts?
Much appreciate thoughts and opinions. Thank you.
Yeti.

p.s. Any place we can donate the old toilets?

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munemaker
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by munemaker » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:27 am

imyeti2 wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:21 am
p.s. Any place we can donate the old toilets?
We went through a phase around here where a toilet were left on the porch of friends as a gag. It got passed around through a group of acquaintances. Personally I don't see the humor but some others did.

Rupert
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by Rupert » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:34 am

imyeti2 wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:21 am

p.s. Any place we can donate the old toilets?
The Habitat for Humanity Re-Store in my town will take them minus the seats.

wmackey
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by wmackey » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:41 am

For the valve, leave it alone unless it starts leaking. You run a small risk of damaging the pipe in changing in out and why spend money you don't have to. As for the ring, I've always used the wax seal. They are cheap and work.

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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by neilpilot » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:44 am

wmackey wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:41 am
For the valve, leave it alone unless it starts leaking. You run a small risk of damaging the pipe in changing in out and why spend money you don't have to. As for the ring, I've always used the wax seal. They are cheap and work.
+1

Imyeti2, what's your reason for questioning the plumber's advice?

renue74
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by renue74 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:52 am

Just installed 2 "VorMax" toilets in a house. I used the Danco perfect seal ring from home depot. I think it was $10 or so.

It's basically a wax ring inside a protected rubber ring. It wasn't as messy and I could reposition the toilet if I screwed up on setting it.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/NEXT-by-Dan ... /206393853

Literally took longer to take the toilet out of the box than it did to install it.

The only times I'm seen a toilet leak is the seal around the top bowl where the water is stored (in the top) and I saw one leak around the hose fitting. I don't think those shutoff valves have ever leaked...and I've seen some pretty funky ones in old rental houses. Ones you don't want to touch without rubber gloves on.

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cheese_breath
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by cheese_breath » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:07 am

I go with the plumber. Use the tried and true.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

Shallowpockets
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by Shallowpockets » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:17 am

Use the green waxless ring. It works great! Very easy to install. The thing with wax is that it takes a set. When seating the toilet, or afterwards, there may be some wobble or deformation of the wax. Wax will not rebound, so it will stay at the point of last compression. It will not come back to fill any voids.


I would not replace the valve. You said it yourself, it isn't broken. Easy enough to fix after the fact if necessary.

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mhc
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by mhc » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:36 am

I hate multi-turn valves. I would replace it.

I wanted to replace my kitchen faucet. I set time aside to do the work. Low and behold, the hot water multi-turn valve no longer worked. I had to shut off the water to the entire house and make an extra trip to the store. Needless to say, I did not get the work finished in the time alloted .

I have on my todo list to replace all multiturn valves with quarter turn ball valves. Ball valves are easier and more reliable to use. They are also quieter.

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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by bob60014 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:00 pm

Why make this the weak link? Every bathroom remodel I've done, the shutoffs have been replaced. Over the years the build up of calcium, rust etc makes for a real mess when you actually have to use them. They're cheap enough to replace, never had a issue swapping them out.

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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by RickBoglehead » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:02 pm

I'd suggest listening to your plumber, or finding a plumbing forum. Getting a dozen responses here isn't anywhere near a valid sample. I use financial forums for financial advise, boating forums for boating advice, truck forum for truck advice. Haven't found a sock forum yet... :P
Avid user of forums on variety of interests-financial, home brewing, F-150, PHEV, home repair, etc. Enjoy learning & passing on knowledge. It's PRINCIPAL, not PRINCIPLE. I ADVISE you to seek ADVICE.

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imyeti2
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by imyeti2 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:03 pm

Thanks for all the responses. I was just getting second opinion. I'd rather the plumber install the best parts rather than what is easily available.

Big Dog
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by Big Dog » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:24 pm

For the valve, leave it alone unless it starts leaking.
Teh reason to swap out the shut-off valve is age. If they've been open for many years and you have hard water like we do, the simple fact of closing/opening it to swap out the toilet could cause it to leak as it breaks the crusty seal. I know it did at our house. (20 years old.)

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lthenderson
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by lthenderson » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:23 pm

imyeti2 wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:21 am

(1) Since we're changing everything, is it worthwhile to change the shut off valve also. They are the old rotating types. Was interested in getting the new quarter turn valves. Nothing wrong with the older ones. Plumbers advises to keep as is. Why fix it ain't broke. Any benefits to the newer ones and doing it now?
(2) Does anyone have experience with the new waxless rings? Like the green Sani Seal. Again, plumber recommends sticking to the old standard rings. However, have heard good things about the new ones. Any thoughts?
1. I always keep a new valve around the house when doing toilet jobs. You really can't tell if the valve is functioning correctly (i.e. shut off completely) until you have disconnected the braided hose to your tank. At that point if there is a slow leak, your option is to turn off the water to that area completely, often times this means the entire house, while you make a trip to the hardware store for a new valve, or retaping and connecting the braided hose back to the tank. I find that valves 20 years old typically need to be replaced. That seems to be the life expectancy of the ones that are a stem and rubber seal. Crap builds up on the little rubber seal and prevents it from seating correctly again to completely stop the flow. Ball valves are much more durable but weren't used back then. I recommend them now.

2. I have switched to the non-waxless seals because they are way more forgiving than wax seals were. With wax seals, you have one chance to get it right and there are a half dozen ways you can mess the seal up and have to scrape it off and put on a new one. With the waxless rings you can find everywhere these days, you can make a half dozen attempts to get things right and not mess up anything. I've never had one leak but then, I probably only started using them about five years ago so the jury is out. I have had wax rings decay and leak with time though.

epeterson1970
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by epeterson1970 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:36 pm

wmackey wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:41 am
For the valve, leave it alone unless it starts leaking. You run a small risk of damaging the pipe in changing in out and why spend money you don't have to. As for the ring, I've always used the wax seal. They are cheap and work.
+1

Housedoc
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by Housedoc » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:12 pm

Replace the valve, 10-15 bucks. Most likely same compression nut and ring can be used. Screw off old one, screw on new one.
Why risk an issue and not be able to cut off water at toilet. Better there than whole house. Plumber wants in and out quick bucks. Maybe a new plumber. If you can lift toilet weight, fairly simple job. I have heard of $200-300 quotes to install an already purchased toilet.
Glove up and get it done. Use a new metal supply line also.

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AAA
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by AAA » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:14 pm

Regarding the older valves - I was having trouble with a toilet flushing well and after changing the parts in the tank to no avail it turned out to be the valve, which was replaced. With our other toilet, the valve was leaking and the plumber just repacked it but several months later it leaked again so it was replaced. While he was here for that, I had the plumber replace the two valves for the bathroom sink as they were of the same vintage. I asked whether he might as well replace the ones to the tub in that same bathroom but he didn't think it was necessary. I'm guessing that if you leave the valves always in the open position they should be okay but opening and closing them might lead to issues. So my advice would be to replace the valves.

eddiek
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by eddiek » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:23 pm

bob60014 wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:00 pm
Why make this the weak link? Every bathroom remodel I've done, the shutoffs have been replaced. Over the years the build up of calcium, rust etc makes for a real mess when you actually have to use them. They're cheap enough to replace, never had a issue swapping them out.
Totally agree with this - I've had shutoff valves "seize" from corrosion and build-up, etc and then the cheap handles broke when using a wrench to get them closed (they were stuck open!) Every chance I get, I replace the valves, and yes, always go with the quarter-turn over the old-school twisters.

Anyone who suggests not to replace obviously has little experience dealing with old valves.

Oh yeah, don't listen to "expert plumbers" who try to tell you wax-rings are the only way to go. That's utter b.s. - make your life easy, go with the modern replacements, which again are far superior technology and will not leak like a wax-seal does when it dries out. Any plumber who insists on wax rings is merely protecting his livelihood.

wmackey
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by wmackey » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:59 pm

I've had plenty of experience with "old valves", which is why I mentioned potential for damaging pipes. It doesn't happen often, but can mean a lot more work.

gnujoe2001
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by gnujoe2001 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:52 pm

Not much as an issue with modern 1.5gpf or less toilets, but the difference between 1/4 turn shut-off and n-turn value can feel like an eternity when rushing against a toilet that's approaching overflow state.

I've changed them out before in our old place when I swapped out the toilets, and any other fixtures I've had to service. Just be sure you get the same threads as the old one.

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sunny_socal
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by sunny_socal » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:58 pm

I'd swap out the hoses but not the valves. (Yes, I hate the 'turn' type) How often does the valve actually get used? Only when swapping out the toilet.

Finridge
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by Finridge » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:08 pm

I'd do the job right and replace both the valves and the supply lines. Especially the supply lines.

It's not a hard job. You can do it. Watch a few youtube videos.

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F150HD
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by F150HD » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:42 pm

Hello,
We're in the process of replacing our older toilets and would like to get some guidance.
(1) Since we're changing everything, is it worthwhile to change the shut off valve also.
Why wouldn't you?

if its one of these football types (see pic), I've found they fail w/in 5-10 years. many have plastic innards and over time fail to actually shut the water off when needed. Not good.

City code may also dictate what needs to be installed...
-
Image
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criticalmass
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by criticalmass » Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:25 pm

imyeti2 wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:21 am
Hello,
We're in the process of replacing our older toilets and would like to get some guidance.
(1) Since we're changing everything, is it worthwhile to change the shut off valve also. They are the old rotating types. Was interested in getting the new quarter turn valves. Nothing wrong with the older ones. Plumbers advises to keep as is. Why fix it ain't broke. Any benefits to the newer ones and doing it now?
(2) Does anyone have experience with the new waxless rings? Like the green Sani Seal. Again, plumber recommends sticking to the old standard rings. However, have heard good things about the new ones. Any thoughts?
Much appreciate thoughts and opinions. Thank you.
Yeti.

p.s. Any place we can donate the old toilets?
Those old stop valves often don’t turn off when you need them to. Even when they do, they often leak from the stem onto your floor after using them. Finally, internal parts corrode.

A good valve is crucial in an emergency or overflow situation. Ball valves are reliable, turn off quickly, won’t leak, and only need a quarter turn.

I just replaced my shutoff valves while replacing fixtures. I strongly recommend you switch to quarter turn valves too. They aren’t much more expensive than using regular stop valves, and cost a few bucks total.

A standard wax ring should work well unless there are special problems.

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tooluser
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by tooluser » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:29 pm

I have a yearly recurring appointment on my calendar to go around the house and wiggle all the shutoff valves so they don't corrode in place.
Everywhere I've put in a quarter turn ball valve, including the house main and hose bibs, has worked out wonderfully. Love them!
The discovery of America, and that of a passage to the East Indies by the Cape of Good Hope, are the two greatest and most important events recorded in the history of mankind. -- Adam Smith, 1776

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WestUniversity
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by WestUniversity » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:40 pm

imyeti2 wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:21 am
Hello,
We're in the process of replacing our older toilets and would like to get some guidance.
(1) Since we're changing everything, is it worthwhile to change the shut off valve also. They are the old rotating types. Was interested in getting the new quarter turn valves. Nothing wrong with the older ones. Plumbers advises to keep as is. Why fix it ain't broke. Any benefits to the newer ones and doing it now?
(2) Does anyone have experience with the new waxless rings? Like the green Sani Seal. Again, plumber recommends sticking to the old standard rings. However, have heard good things about the new ones. Any thoughts?
Much appreciate thoughts and opinions. Thank you.
Yeti.

p.s. Any place we can donate the old toilets?
I’ve used the new rings on two toilets I’ve replaced. As it so happens one of those two toilets developed a crack in the tank and I had to replace it. I did not have to pull out the ring and replace it. I simply put the new toilet in and it seated and sealed just fine. I’m a believer....

squirm
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by squirm » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:02 pm

I usually double up the wax ring.

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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by abuss368 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:16 pm

We replaced our wax ring years ago. Subsequently we replaced the toilet and the plumber informed us we could get a new flange that did not require wax. This was more expensive but worked well.
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by gvsucavie03 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:23 pm

neilpilot wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:44 am
wmackey wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:41 am
For the valve, leave it alone unless it starts leaking. You run a small risk of damaging the pipe in changing in out and why spend money you don't have to. As for the ring, I've always used the wax seal. They are cheap and work.
+1
+2

gvsucavie03
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by gvsucavie03 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:24 pm

F150HD wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:42 pm
Hello,
We're in the process of replacing our older toilets and would like to get some guidance.
(1) Since we're changing everything, is it worthwhile to change the shut off valve also.
Why wouldn't you?

if its one of these football types (see pic), I've found they fail w/in 5-10 years. many have plastic innards and over time fail to actually shut the water off when needed. Not good.

City code may also dictate what needs to be installed...
-
Image
In this photo, I'd replace the hose to braided stainless steel.

momvesting
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by momvesting » Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:50 pm

We recently removed a toilet to tile the bathroom floor. We replaced it using one of those blue waxless rings at Home Depot. I believe it was the Fluidmaster one. One of my reasons was that when we removed the toilet, there was wax mess everywhere, which grossed me out! We also had to reposition the toilet a few times because the new floor height changed how it sat just a bit. This was easy because we were not using wax. I have also read that plunging can displace the wax, as can dumping warm water in the toilet. In our last home we reset two toilets after replacing floors and both times we used wax. This time was quite a bit easier and cleaner with the blue waxless ring.

vested1
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by vested1 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:35 am

We had a walk-through with a real estate agent who told us we would have to replace both our expensive 1.6 gallon per flush Kohler toilets with 1.28 gallon per flush toilets in order to pass the city inspection for selling our home. Adding to this thread to point out that yesterday I saw Delta toilets at Costco discounted to $89, which included the seat, wax ring, and I believe the new valve as well. Since I've installed our toilets before I'll do so again to save the approximate $300 apiece in labor.

I guess California won't be satisfied until we are using 1 oz per flush toilets. Anyone want a couple of really nice Kohler toilets? Or maybe I'll take them with us on our road trip across the country to look for a new house, and install them in our next home in a less regulated State. Who knows, they might come in handy when driving those long lonesome roads through Kansas.

Housedoc
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by Housedoc » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:00 am

I listed 2 old toilets for free on Craigslist, they were gone in 4 hrs.

Boglegrappler
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Re: Installing a new toilet - shut off valve and wax ring

Post by Boglegrappler » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:06 am

Teh reason to swap out the shut-off valve is age. If they've been open for many years and you have hard water like we do, the simple fact of closing/opening it to swap out the toilet could cause it to leak as it breaks the crusty seal. I know it did at our house. (20 years old.)
Second this.

I taught myself a lesson some years back when I didn't turn off the water supply at the source, and was attempting to shut off the supply valve at the toilet. The lousy pipe material that they used actually snapped off while I was attempting to close the sticking valve, and I had to make a record fast trip from the second floor to the basement to cut the water supply.

I say replace the old valves with the newer quarter turn.

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