Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

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corn18
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by corn18 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:18 am

Haven’t seen a Mini Cooper mentioned. It’s been a decade since I test drive one, but I remember it was fun.

Beehave
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by Beehave » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:56 am

A good answer is the Mazda 6 with stick shift. Caddy ATS with stick or Camaro with stick shift too, if they can meet the price requirement.

Now, if the OP can tolerate a vehicle with an automatic transmission (in other words, if an automatic is not automatically boring to the OP), then the 2018 or 19 Camry hybrid might just fit the bill. It has 203 HP, immediate power that can chirp front wheels on acceleration, and a new TNGA suspension praised literally as "no longer boring" in reviews in the major motor mags' test drive reviews. There's even more interesting fun in its 50mpg and rock-solid predicted reliability. But of course, to some, as clearly indicated in posts above, in their minds that's just "canned tuna."

P.S. It would be helpful for OP to specify whether this vehicle will ever need to transport children. If so, how many? What ages? Similar questions for carpooling. Also, does it need to be driven in snow? Or often in rain? Mountains? Will OP own another vehicle?
That's not all. Since OP wants reliablity, which among the following constitute reliability in the OP's mind:
- inexpensive to repair, parts remain available over time, and mechanics pretty much anywhere can fix?
- the critical systems required for starting, propelling, and stopping the car are not prone to malfunction?
- the ancillary features for comfort and access are not prone to malfunction: a/c, audio, windows and locks, upholstery, interior lights etc.?
- doesn't keep wearing out tires and brakes?
- availability of collision avoidance tech, excellent crash-test results, low death-rate per mile driven stats?
- likelihood of reaching 100k miles without major repair? 200k? 300k?
- low likelihood of being stolen or broken into?

Since OP did not provide enough relevant specifics, there's really no "steak" or "tuna" answer, and one responder's answer is as good as another's', even if it's "get a Camry," which to me is a perfectly fine answer. In fact the "Camry answer" may be much better than the "Mazda Miata answer" or "Camaro answer" not only subjectively depending on one's own opinions, but also objectively depending on the answers to a bunch of questions about the OP to which we don't know the answers.

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Hawaiishrimp
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by Hawaiishrimp » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:24 am

monkey_business wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:42 pm
Criteria:

- Street price under $30k
- Reliable
- Fun driving dynamics (please no Corolla/Prius-type recommendations)
- Support for Android Auto/Apple Carplay (either available now, or coming soon)
- Can be new or used, but nothing over 3 years old

What do you recommend?
Miata
BRZ
I save and invest my money, so money can make money for me, so I don't have to make money eventually.

lazydavid
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by lazydavid » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:27 am

Beehave wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:56 am
Now, if the OP can tolerate a vehicle with an automatic transmission (in other words, if an automatic is not automatically boring to the OP), then the 2018 or 19 Camry hybrid might just fit the bill. It has 203 HP, immediate power that can chirp front wheels on acceleration, and a new TNGA suspension praised literally as "no longer boring" in reviews in the major motor mags' test drive reviews. There's even more interesting fun in its 50mpg and rock-solid predicted reliability. But of course, to some, as clearly indicated in posts above, in their minds that's just "canned tuna."
I'm sorry, but no. 208 hp and 149 lbft of torque would be fun in a 2,400 lb Miata or 2,800 lb BRZ. In a 3,500-3,600 lb FWD transportation appliance, it's barely adequate and miles away from fun. The 8-second 0-60 time bears this out.

Though certainly virtues in their own way, high fuel economy (the camry hybrid gets nowhere near 50mpg though--44 with the cruise set at 75 and no traffic) and reliability have nothing to do with fun or driving engagement. Also, to get near those numbers:
Car and Driver wrote: To do this, you’ll want to drive in Eco mode, which deadens throttle response and keeps engine rpm as low as possible.
Yeah, that sounds like a real hoot. Compare that to the OP's explicitly stated requirements:
Fun driving dynamics (please no Corolla/Prius-type recommendations)
The Camry Hybrid is not the very worst car on the market at meeting this criteria, but it's unquestionably in the bottom quartile.

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tennisplyr
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by tennisplyr » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:31 am

Love my new Honda Civic Hatchback....sharp and fast!
Those who move forward with a happy spirit will find that things always work out.

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dodecahedron
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by dodecahedron » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:39 am

Totally scratching my head over what qualities make a car ¨fun" or ¨nonboring.¨ I drive my late husbandś 2007 Honda Accord and (finally) decided to figure out how to open the moonroof. It does seem a little more fun to drive around that way but I am guessing thatś not what people are talking about.

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jadd806
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by jadd806 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:52 am

researcher wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:43 pm
jadd806 wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:07 am
Why are there so many recommendations for the Mazda 3? What's the attraction here? The engine sounds like a lawn mower, it has the worst road noise of any car on the market save maybe the Yaris, and it certainly doesn't make up for its lack of power with snappy handling like the BRZ/Miata/Golf. It's not a driver's car by any stretch of the imagination and you might as well just get a Prius at that point instead of pretending your Mazda 3 econobox is "sporty".
I'm also surprised to see the Mazda3 listed. If it's a serious contender, then add in the Hyundai Elantra, the 3’s sibling-separated-at-birth. What's that you say, the Elantra is a fine but boring car, an excellent commuter? Yep, and so is the Mazda3.
You really think a Mazda3 is comparable to Yaris, Prius or Elantra?
Along with most of the posters here, experts in drivers cars also disagree...
https://www.caranddriver.com/mazda/mazda-3

- What makes the Mazda 3 one of our favorite cars—not to mention a multi-time 10Best Cars winner? Its winning formula is simple and continues to win us over: sharp looks, a near-premium interior, and sublime driving dynamics.
- As a daily driver, it’s practical, comfortable, and stylish. Blend those virtues with a focus on driving pleasure and it’s no wonder the 3 finds itself at the top of our list.
Yes, I do. It's an econobox and it certainly drives and looks like one. There is nothing that meets the OP's "non-boring" criteria about the Mazda 3 when comparing it to other cars in its class, i.e. other compact econoboxes.

When you Google "Mazda 3" here is what comes up in the list of related vehicles that Google displays:

2018 Toyota Yaris iA
2018 Honda Civic
2019 Subaru Impreza
2019 Toyota Corolla
2018 Kia Rio
2019 Honda Fit
2018 Toyota Prius

What's the common trend here? LOL. :oops:

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El Greco
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by El Greco » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:36 am

jadd806 wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:52 am
researcher wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:43 pm
jadd806 wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:07 am
Why are there so many recommendations for the Mazda 3? What's the attraction here? The engine sounds like a lawn mower, it has the worst road noise of any car on the market save maybe the Yaris, and it certainly doesn't make up for its lack of power with snappy handling like the BRZ/Miata/Golf. It's not a driver's car by any stretch of the imagination and you might as well just get a Prius at that point instead of pretending your Mazda 3 econobox is "sporty".
I'm also surprised to see the Mazda3 listed. If it's a serious contender, then add in the Hyundai Elantra, the 3’s sibling-separated-at-birth. What's that you say, the Elantra is a fine but boring car, an excellent commuter? Yep, and so is the Mazda3.
You really think a Mazda3 is comparable to Yaris, Prius or Elantra?
Along with most of the posters here, experts in drivers cars also disagree...
https://www.caranddriver.com/mazda/mazda-3

- What makes the Mazda 3 one of our favorite cars—not to mention a multi-time 10Best Cars winner? Its winning formula is simple and continues to win us over: sharp looks, a near-premium interior, and sublime driving dynamics.
- As a daily driver, it’s practical, comfortable, and stylish. Blend those virtues with a focus on driving pleasure and it’s no wonder the 3 finds itself at the top of our list.
Yes, I do. It's an econobox and it certainly drives and looks like one. There is nothing that meets the OP's "non-boring" criteria about the Mazda 3 when comparing it to other cars in its class, i.e. other compact econoboxes.

When you Google "Mazda 3" here is what comes up in the list of related vehicles that Google displays:

2018 Toyota Yaris iA
2018 Honda Civic
2019 Subaru Impreza
2019 Toyota Corolla
2018 Kia Rio
2019 Honda Fit
2018 Toyota Prius

What's the common trend here? LOL. :oops:
Car opinions are highly subjective. If you've read through this thread, you might notice the OP has already mentioned the Mazda6 and Mazda3 are already in his consideration set. A Mazda3 GT with 2.5L engine definitely fits OPs criteria and despite what you or "Google" says has very little in common with a Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, or Kia Rio. You can even get it with a nice, smooth, manual six speed. A Honda Civic can be similarly optioned for under $30K. If you like Japanese cars under 30K, (like I do, and apparently many others on this forum) Mazda and Honda are probably the best "fun to drive" choices.

alfaspider
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by alfaspider » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:48 am

dodecahedron wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:39 am
Totally scratching my head over what qualities make a car ¨fun" or ¨nonboring.¨ I drive my late husbandś 2007 Honda Accord and (finally) decided to figure out how to open the moonroof. It does seem a little more fun to drive around that way but I am guessing thatś not what people are talking about.
A few things in no particular order:

1) Responsiveness to driver input
2) Able to pull high G-forces (lateral or forward)
3) Sights/sounds that trigger the senses (nice engine noise, good body design)
4) Ability to use for a particular autosport activity (track days, drag racing, etc.)
5) Being unusual or out of the ordinary
6) Having a robust enthusiast community dedicated to the vehicle
7) Large aftermarket support for modifications

At the end of the day, if you aren't a car person, you aren't going to "get it." In the same way I don't "get" designer handbags. But some people get a kick out of such things, and who am I to judge?

NJdad6
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by NJdad6 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:58 am

Kia Optima EX/SX or Hyundai Sonanta Sport/2.0t. Very comfortable, roomy, great ride, quiet, adjustable steering feel, sporty, best in class crash test results, excellent fuel economy, well built with high quality materials and some of the most reliable cars you can buy. Makes a great daily driver and road trip car. Should be able to get pretty well equipped (but not fully equipped) for under $30k.

g2morrow
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by g2morrow » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:48 am

I didn't read all 4 pages but I vote for the Mazda MX-5 RF- the 2019 model bumped the HP up to ~180

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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by H-Town » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:42 am

g2morrow wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:48 am
I didn't read all 4 pages but I vote for the Mazda MX-5 RF- the 2019 model bumped the HP up to ~180
Any car that has less than 300 HP should be disqualified as a fun car, at least in my books. I would stay away from any car that has turbo lags. It takes away all the fun. I would look at those characteristics:

19 - 20 inch wheel.
>300 HP, >300 torque
V6 or V8 natural engine
RWD

b42
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by b42 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:45 am

Throwing in a vote for a new Honda Civic. I am leasing a 2017 Civic EX with Sensing, but I believe the sale price if I bought it would have been around 22k before taxes.

ssquared87
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by ssquared87 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:52 am

thangngo wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:42 am
g2morrow wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:48 am
I didn't read all 4 pages but I vote for the Mazda MX-5 RF- the 2019 model bumped the HP up to ~180
Any car that has less than 300 HP should be disqualified as a fun car, at least in my books. I would stay away from any car that has turbo lags. It takes away all the fun. I would look at those characteristics:

19 - 20 inch wheel.
>300 HP, >300 torque
V6 or V8 natural engine
RWD
That's idiotic, HP in a vacuum means absolutely nothing without considering the weight of the vehicle, aerodynamics, and chasis. A Camry V6 has 300hp and takes 6 seconds to hit 60...a miata has 155hp and hits 60 in the same amount of time. The torque curve on the Miata is better as well, so acceleration from 40-60 is better than the Camry with has double the hp....HP means next to nothing, torque is more relevant.

The Miata is one of the least powerful cars on the market and its the most fun. The BRZ has a massive dead spot in the torque curve, the engine sounds like marbles, and it hardly has any power, yet its more engaging to drive than a Camaro SS with 455hp...although the latest camaro does have a spectacular chassis and wonderful handling.

19inch wheels add more weight and aren't always needed to add traction, if you have a miata, you can get away with smaller, lighter wheels and still not overpower the traction with the engine.

V6 is a crap engine...BMW i6 and Porsche Flat 6 have perfectly balanced primary and secondary forces so don't need heavy balance shafts, run smoother and provide more power than a V6, and are more fuel efficient. They also sound better.

RWD yeah thats about the only thing that is a must on your list.

H-Town
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by H-Town » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:28 pm

ssquared87 wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:52 am
That's idiotic
Yeah, thank you!
ssquared87 wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:52 am
HP in a vacuum means absolutely nothing without considering the weight of the vehicle, aerodynamics, and chasis. A Camry V6 has 300hp and takes 6 seconds to hit 60...a miata has 155hp and hits 60 in the same amount of time. The torque curve on the Miata is better as well, so acceleration from 40-60 is better than the Camry with has double the hp....HP means next to nothing, torque is more relevant.
Sure, Miata is fun like a go-kart car. My first car was a Camry V6 and I also drove a Tesla on various occasion. So I get your point about power, torque, and weight. With the 3 cars under 30k (Camry V6, Miata, Camaro V6), I'd take the Camaro. Powerful in the quarter-mile. Even better on freeway where HP matters.
The Miata is one of the least powerful cars on the market and its the most fun. The BRZ has a massive dead spot in the torque curve, the engine sounds like marbles, and it hardly has any power, yet its more engaging to drive than a Camaro SS with 455hp...although the latest camaro does have a spectacular chassis and wonderful handling.
I like the drive of a Camaro better. Call me idotic if you want, oh wait.. you already did.
19inch wheels add more weight and aren't always needed to add traction, if you have a miata, you can get away with smaller, lighter wheels and still not overpower the traction with the engine.
Bigger wheels provide better breaking distance. Breaking is a critical part of a performance car.
V6 is a crap engine...BMW i6 and Porsche Flat 6 have perfectly balanced primary and secondary forces so don't need heavy balance shafts, run smoother and provide more power than a V6, and are more fuel efficient. They also sound better.
I would take porsche flat 6 engine in a heartbeat if they are sold as cheap as V6 engine.
RWD yeah thats about the only thing that is a must on your list.
I'll drink to that! :beer

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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by KyleAAA » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:35 pm

I don't know about Android Auto/Carplay compatibility but otherwise a top trim Mazda3 or a Miata fits this bill. VW GTI maybe. You could try for a used BMW if you don't mind spending more on maintenance.

amateurnovice
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by amateurnovice » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:36 pm

monkey_business wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:42 pm
Criteria:

- Street price under $30k
- Reliable
- Fun driving dynamics (please no Corolla/Prius-type recommendations)
- Support for Android Auto/Apple Carplay (either available now, or coming soon)
- Can be new or used, but nothing over 3 years old

What do you recommend?
Subaru with a 5 or 6 speed. WRX or Impreza hatch. I'd get a 2018. Honda Accord next. Then Camry.

alfaspider
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by alfaspider » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:36 pm

thangngo wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:28 pm


Bigger wheels provide better breaking distance. Breaking is a critical part of a performance car.
Umm... No. Where on earth did you get that idea? Yes, you can fit bigger brake disks under a bigger wheel, but that has nothing to do with stopping distance. And cars with smaller wheels are also usually lighter, which means a smaller brake disk will do as good a job as a larger one. In a modern braking system, absolute stopping distance is primarily influenced by grip, which is determined by the surface, how the suspension behaves under braking, and the tires. ABS programming and brake bias can also influence (more rear bias means quicker stopping to a point, at the cost of less stability under hard braking).

As for 300hp needed to be fun. That's silly. Drive an Arial Atom with 245hp and the come back to us. Power to weight ratio is what matters for straight line performance, not absolute power. A school bus has 300hp- does that make it a sports car?

H-Town
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by H-Town » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:51 pm

alfaspider wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:36 pm
thangngo wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:28 pm


Bigger wheels provide better breaking distance. Breaking is a critical part of a performance car.
Umm... No. Where on earth did you get that idea? Yes, you can fit bigger brake disks under a bigger wheel, but that has nothing to do with stopping distance. And cars with smaller wheels are also usually lighter, which means a smaller brake disk will do as good a job as a larger one. In a modern braking system, absolute stopping distance is primarily influenced by grip, which is determined by the surface, how the suspension behaves under braking, and the tires. ABS programming and brake bias can also influence (more rear bias means quicker stopping to a point, at the cost of less stability under hard braking).
Well.. Bigger wheel comes with bigger tires, which allow better grip on the asphalt. It's not everything but it's one factor of breaking. Porsche 911 has 20 inch whell with 245/35 tires. If you substitute it with 16 inch wheel, do you still have the same effectiveness?
As for 300hp needed to be fun. That's silly. Drive an Arial Atom with 245hp and the come back to us. Power to weight ratio is what matters for straight line performance, not absolute power. A school bus has 300hp- does that make it a sports car?
I can do the same thing with go kart racing. But honestly can it function as a daily driver?

To be clear, my comment on 300hp is related to passenger cars, i.e. Accord, Mazda, Civic, and the likes. Is it really fun with I4 engine less than 300hp?

Jack FFR1846
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:54 pm

mouses wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:13 pm
My brother says for environmental reasons, people buying new cars should go for EVs if at all possible, if not then hybrids. He came into a modest bundle of money and bought a Tesla 3. I believe he said he forked out $35k which is somewhat out of your price range, but maybe not too much. However I see higher prices on the web, so I may have misunderstood him. It does sound like a fun car.
There is no such thing as a $35k model 3 and never will be. Perhaps he's not good at math.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

lazydavid
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by lazydavid » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:59 pm

thangngo wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:28 pm
Bigger wheels provide better breaking distance. Breaking is a critical part of a performance car.
The second sentence is true, the first is not. For the same wheel design, a larger diameter wheel is heavier, and worse, it's unsprung, rotating mass. This dramatically increases the amount of braking force necessary to stop the wheel. Taller sidewalls (higher aspect ratios) that would be found on smaller-diameter wheels also flex more under load, which for acceleration and braking, is a good thing because it increases the contact patch. These are all reasons why most race cars have smaller wheels than many road-going cars--many cars that you'd see wearing 18-21" wheels on the street will run 17s on the track. 15s would be common if they would clear the brake calipers.

Now granted, all things are not always equal, and there will certainly be cases where going to a larger wheel does result in shorter stopping distances. But the increase in diameter has absolutely nothing to do with that. Often times when this is done, the tires will be changed from some crappy narrow all-season to a much wider high-performance tire. That's where the gains typically come in--the improvement from the better tires overcomes the penalty imposed by the larger wheels. In some cases, people will be going from an OE wheel that is heavy for its size, to lightweight forged wheels. A larger wheel that is lighter than a smaller one will reduce rotating mass, and therefore improve braking distance. But going to a smaller size of the same lightweight wheel would show an even bigger improvement.

H-Town
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by H-Town » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:01 pm

lazydavid wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:59 pm
thangngo wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:28 pm
Bigger wheels provide better breaking distance. Breaking is a critical part of a performance car.
The second sentence is true, the first is not. For the same wheel design, a larger diameter wheel is heavier, and worse, it's unsprung, rotating mass. This dramatically increases the amount of braking force necessary to stop the wheel. Taller sidewalls (higher aspect ratios) that would be found on smaller-diameter wheels also flex more under load, which for acceleration and braking, is a good thing because it increases the contact patch. These are all reasons why most race cars have smaller wheels than many road-going cars--many cars that you'd see wearing 18-21" wheels on the street will run 17s on the track. 15s would be common if they would clear the brake calipers.

Now granted, all things are not always equal, and there will certainly be cases where going to a larger wheel does result in shorter stopping distances. But the increase in diameter has absolutely nothing to do with that. Often times when this is done, the tires will be changed from some crappy narrow all-season to a much wider high-performance tire. That's where the gains typically come in--the improvement from the better tires overcomes the penalty imposed by the larger wheels. In some cases, people will be going from an OE wheel that is heavy for its size, to lightweight forged wheels. A larger wheel that is lighter than a smaller one will reduce rotating mass, and therefore improve braking distance. But going to a smaller size of the same lightweight wheel would show an even bigger improvement.
Got it. This makes sense.

dave_k
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by dave_k » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:04 pm

One more recommendation for the VW GTI. We got my wife a new one with manual transmission last year for about $23k. I enjoy driving it even though my daily driver is a BMW M5 (an old 2000 model, but still fun).

Starfish
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by Starfish » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:28 pm

thangngo wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:42 am
g2morrow wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:48 am
I didn't read all 4 pages but I vote for the Mazda MX-5 RF- the 2019 model bumped the HP up to ~180
Any car that has less than 300 HP should be disqualified as a fun car, at least in my books. I would stay away from any car that has turbo lags. It takes away all the fun. I would look at those characteristics:

19 - 20 inch wheel.
>300 HP, >300 torque
V6 or V8 natural engine
RWD
You forgot chrome spinners :D
Power has nothing to do with fun for many people.
Miata is more fan than many 300HP cars.

I am still amazed answers stating
1. I have no idea what fun means and I decided to put that in writing HERE.
2. Camry is fun goddammit!!!
Why?

stoptothink
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by stoptothink » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:34 pm

Starfish wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:28 pm
thangngo wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:42 am
g2morrow wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:48 am
I didn't read all 4 pages but I vote for the Mazda MX-5 RF- the 2019 model bumped the HP up to ~180
Any car that has less than 300 HP should be disqualified as a fun car, at least in my books. I would stay away from any car that has turbo lags. It takes away all the fun. I would look at those characteristics:

19 - 20 inch wheel.
>300 HP, >300 torque
V6 or V8 natural engine
RWD
You forgot chrome spinners :D
Power has nothing to do with fun for many people.
Miata is more fan than many 300HP cars.

I am still amazed answers stating
1. I have no idea what fun means and I decided to put that in writing HERE.
2. Camry is fun goddammit!!!
Why?
Umm, yeah. Thangngo's understanding of physics and (albeit subjective) definition of what makes a car "fun" are interesting. When they said "fun like a go-cart" I was confused; how is that a bad thing? Go-carts are "fun" as hell. As far as I am concerned, the single biggest measurable factor in how much "fun" a car is, is weight. It directly impacts every other performance and "fun" factor far more than HP rating or wheel size.

H-Town
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by H-Town » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:43 pm

A quick review of Miata:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIEo2IbVd8Y
It's not my (subjective) definition of a fun car. It might be for (many) other people. A over 7 seconds 0 to 60 is vanilla.

A comparison with a V6 base model of Camaro (within 35k)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPB1KL45ins
This is a fun car to me. :sharebeer

A V-6 Camry review:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkSE5DxarHA
This is as boring as a car can get.

alfaspider
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by alfaspider » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:48 pm

thangngo wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:51 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:36 pm
thangngo wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:28 pm


Bigger wheels provide better breaking distance. Breaking is a critical part of a performance car.
Umm... No. Where on earth did you get that idea? Yes, you can fit bigger brake disks under a bigger wheel, but that has nothing to do with stopping distance. And cars with smaller wheels are also usually lighter, which means a smaller brake disk will do as good a job as a larger one. In a modern braking system, absolute stopping distance is primarily influenced by grip, which is determined by the surface, how the suspension behaves under braking, and the tires. ABS programming and brake bias can also influence (more rear bias means quicker stopping to a point, at the cost of less stability under hard braking).
Well.. Bigger wheel comes with bigger tires, which allow better grip on the asphalt. It's not everything but it's one factor of breaking. Porsche 911 has 20 inch whell with 245/35 tires. If you substitute it with 16 inch wheel, do you still have the same effectiveness?
As for 300hp needed to be fun. That's silly. Drive an Arial Atom with 245hp and the come back to us. Power to weight ratio is what matters for straight line performance, not absolute power. A school bus has 300hp- does that make it a sports car?
I can do the same thing with go kart racing. But honestly can it function as a daily driver?

To be clear, my comment on 300hp is related to passenger cars, i.e. Accord, Mazda, Civic, and the likes. Is it really fun with I4 engine less than 300hp?
Again, this is not true. A larger diameter tire will not result in a larger contact patch. Racers often downsize from factory wheels in order to go lighter.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cultur ... e-patches/

As for power, if you are only looking at cars in the same weight class (i.e. Mazda 3 vs Civic), sure. But we are talking here about the difference between a 2,300lb Miata or a 4,500lb challenger. Both are passenger cars that one could daily drive (and I have daily driven a Miata). Also, turbos are a personal preference, but driving the latest gen turbos may change your mind. A 300hp 4 banger like the one in the civic type R can have tremendously good throttle response these day- better than many old school NA motors.

Starfish
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by Starfish » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:50 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:34 pm
Starfish wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:28 pm
thangngo wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:42 am
g2morrow wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:48 am
I didn't read all 4 pages but I vote for the Mazda MX-5 RF- the 2019 model bumped the HP up to ~180
Any car that has less than 300 HP should be disqualified as a fun car, at least in my books. I would stay away from any car that has turbo lags. It takes away all the fun. I would look at those characteristics:

19 - 20 inch wheel.
>300 HP, >300 torque
V6 or V8 natural engine
RWD
You forgot chrome spinners :D
Power has nothing to do with fun for many people.
Miata is more fan than many 300HP cars.

I am still amazed answers stating
1. I have no idea what fun means and I decided to put that in writing HERE.
2. Camry is fun goddammit!!!
Why?
Umm, yeah. Thangngo's understanding of physics and (albeit subjective) definition of what makes a car "fun" are interesting. When they said "fun like a go-cart" I was confused; how is that a bad thing? Go-carts are "fun" as hell. As far as I am concerned, the single biggest measurable factor in how much "fun" a car is, is weight. It directly impacts every other performance and "fun" factor far more than HP rating or wheel size.
That is fine.. I understand when people mean "power" they actually mean power/weight ratio and that is fun.
But there are messages where people genuinely ask what fun means. It's a little sad :D
A over 7 seconds 0 to 60 is vanilla.
Fun is generally correlated with track times (like in racing track, not drag). Sure, power helps, but is just one factor and not a very important one.

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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by Starfish » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:54 pm

Beehave wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:56 am

Since OP did not provide enough relevant specifics, there's really no "steak" or "tuna" answer, and one responder's answer is as good as another's', even if it's "get a Camry," which to me is a perfectly fine answer. In fact the "Camry answer" may be much better than the "Mazda Miata answer" or "Camaro answer" not only subjectively depending on one's own opinions, but also objectively depending on the answers to a bunch of questions about the OP to which we don't know the answers.
So your point is that OP actually asked about the totality of cars under 30k, and non-boring because it wasn't properly defined does not convey ANY information.
When did EVER put somebody Camry and fun in the same sentence and not in sarcastic way?
To what point do you have to redefine worlds because the poster did not provide enough definitions and context?

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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by lazydavid » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:54 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:34 pm
When they said "fun like a go-cart" I was confused; how is that a bad thing? Go-carts are "fun" as hell. As far as I am concerned, the single biggest measurable factor in how much "fun" a car is, is weight. It directly impacts every other performance and "fun" factor far more than HP rating or wheel size.
"Simplify, then add lightness" --Lotus philosophy, as defined by founder and original engineer Colin Chapman. He actually invented the stressed monocoque chassis, a lightweight race car design that is still used in F1 today.

Some of the most popular production cars that Lotus has made over the years have all been powered by four-cylinders--from the Esprit in the '80s, to the Elise in the '90s--and have been highly regarded as excellent sports cars due to their lightness and razor-sharp handling. The current Evora does have a 3.5L V6.

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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by lazydavid » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:57 pm

Starfish wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:54 pm
When did EVER put somebody Camry and fun in the same sentence and not in sarcastic way?
A little further up on this page, in fact:
Beehave wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:56 am
Now, if the OP can tolerate a vehicle with an automatic transmission (in other words, if an automatic is not automatically boring to the OP), then the 2018 or 19 Camry hybrid might just fit the bill. It has 203 HP, immediate power that can chirp front wheels on acceleration, and a new TNGA suspension praised literally as "no longer boring" in reviews in the major motor mags' test drive reviews. There's even more interesting fun in its 50mpg and rock-solid predicted reliability. But of course, to some, as clearly indicated in posts above, in their minds that's just "canned tuna."

Since OP did not provide enough relevant specifics, there's really no "steak" or "tuna" answer, and one responder's answer is as good as another's', even if it's "get a Camry," which to me is a perfectly fine answer. In fact the "Camry answer" may be much better than the "Mazda Miata answer" or "Camaro answer" not only subjectively depending on one's own opinions, but also objectively depending on the answers to a bunch of questions about the OP to which we don't know the answers.

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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by daveydoo » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:02 pm

lazydavid wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:54 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:34 pm
When they said "fun like a go-cart" I was confused; how is that a bad thing? Go-carts are "fun" as hell. As far as I am concerned, the single biggest measurable factor in how much "fun" a car is, is weight. It directly impacts every other performance and "fun" factor far more than HP rating or wheel size.
...The current Evora does have a 3.5L V6.
Hey where else have I seen that Evora engine...? Let me think... :D

[just pokin' the bear here]
"I mean, it's one banana, Michael...what could it cost? Ten dollars?"

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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by Starfish » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:02 pm

lazydavid wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:57 pm
Starfish wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:54 pm
When did EVER put somebody Camry and fun in the same sentence and not in sarcastic way?
A little further up on this page, in fact:
Beehave wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:56 am
Now, if the OP can tolerate a vehicle with an automatic transmission (in other words, if an automatic is not automatically boring to the OP), then the 2018 or 19 Camry hybrid might just fit the bill. It has 203 HP, immediate power that can chirp front wheels on acceleration, and a new TNGA suspension praised literally as "no longer boring" in reviews in the major motor mags' test drive reviews. There's even more interesting fun in its 50mpg and rock-solid predicted reliability. But of course, to some, as clearly indicated in posts above, in their minds that's just "canned tuna."

Since OP did not provide enough relevant specifics, there's really no "steak" or "tuna" answer, and one responder's answer is as good as another's', even if it's "get a Camry," which to me is a perfectly fine answer. In fact the "Camry answer" may be much better than the "Mazda Miata answer" or "Camaro answer" not only subjectively depending on one's own opinions, but also objectively depending on the answers to a bunch of questions about the OP to which we don't know the answers.


Poor souls.

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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by lazydavid » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:10 pm

daveydoo wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:02 pm
lazydavid wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:54 pm
...The current Evora does have a 3.5L V6.
Hey where else have I seen that Evora engine...? Let me think... :D

[just pokin' the bear here]
True....If Toyota put a supercharger in the Camry, converted it to RWD, and dropped 800 lbs, it might actually be fun. :mrgreen:

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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by Charon » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:57 pm

monkey_business wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:48 pm
hand wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:43 pm
5) How do you define fun driving dynamics? Handling, power, other?
Handling, steering, size feel (don't want a car that feels heavy/big) mostly. Power not critical just don't want it to be slow. As long as it is ~7.5s 0-60 or faster it's fine.
I'm curious how often it matters to have a 0-60 that's 7.5s vs., say, 9.2s. I totally get not wanting a car that feels big and heavy, but the most acceleration I ever need is a local freeway on-ramp that's very short, steeply uphill, and begins from a stop sign. My slow ass Subaru Crosstrek (9.2s 0-60) has never had a problem merging, and usually I'm slowed down by cars in front of me.

Now, I certainly wouldn't recommend a Crosstrek for you - absolutely no reason to have that unless you want to go off road - but I'm just saying, how often does it really matter what the acceleration is.

That said, if I were buying a new car for use only on pavement and $30k were my cap, I'd look into a Chevy Bolt. With tax breaks you could probably make your limit, with a very practical car that also does 0-60 in 6.3s. Plus you'll save money on gas and maintenance. The new Leaf is another alternative.

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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by Charon » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:03 pm

thangngo wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:51 pm
Well.. Bigger wheel comes with bigger tires, which allow better grip on the asphalt. It's not everything but it's one factor of breaking.
A simple friction model in basic physics says this is not true. Do you have evidence that it is? The primary effect on braking is going to be from the coefficient of friction between the tire and the road - that is to say, the material of the tire you have, and the conditions of the road.

I'm a physicist, not a racer or tire expert, but a quick google search seems to support applying simple friction theory to actual practice: https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cultur ... out-tires/

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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by dodecahedron » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:36 pm

alfaspider wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:48 am
dodecahedron wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:39 am
Totally scratching my head over what qualities make a car ¨fun" or ¨nonboring.¨ I drive my late husbandś 2007 Honda Accord and (finally) decided to figure out how to open the moonroof. It does seem a little more fun to drive around that way but I am guessing thatś not what people are talking about.
A few things in no particular order:

1) Responsiveness to driver input
2) Able to pull high G-forces (lateral or forward)
3) Sights/sounds that trigger the senses (nice engine noise, good body design)
4) Ability to use for a particular autosport activity (track days, drag racing, etc.)
5) Being unusual or out of the ordinary
6) Having a robust enthusiast community dedicated to the vehicle
7) Large aftermarket support for modifications

At the end of the day, if you aren't a car person, you aren't going to "get it." In the same way I don't "get" designer handbags. But some people get a kick out of such things, and who am I to judge?
Thanks! I don´t get the designer handbag thing either! Actually prefer to take public transit bus rather than driving when I can. I guess I am pretty low maintenance.

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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by monkey_business » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:01 pm

Charon wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:57 pm
monkey_business wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:48 pm
hand wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:43 pm
5) How do you define fun driving dynamics? Handling, power, other?
Handling, steering, size feel (don't want a car that feels heavy/big) mostly. Power not critical just don't want it to be slow. As long as it is ~7.5s 0-60 or faster it's fine.
I'm curious how often it matters to have a 0-60 that's 7.5s vs., say, 9.2s. I totally get not wanting a car that feels big and heavy, but the most acceleration I ever need is a local freeway on-ramp that's very short, steeply uphill, and begins from a stop sign. My slow ass Subaru Crosstrek (9.2s 0-60) has never had a problem merging, and usually I'm slowed down by cars in front of me.

Now, I certainly wouldn't recommend a Crosstrek for you - absolutely no reason to have that unless you want to go off road - but I'm just saying, how often does it really matter what the acceleration is.
This thread is not about determining what is needed in a car, but what is wanted in a car. To use our previous analogy, it's like asking why you would want to you eat steak when canned tuna has plenty of protein.

In short, I am not sure how to answer your question. You're essentially asking "why do you enjoy that, while I don't?".

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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by Starfish » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:34 pm

Charon wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:03 pm
thangngo wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:51 pm
Well.. Bigger wheel comes with bigger tires, which allow better grip on the asphalt. It's not everything but it's one factor of breaking.
A simple friction model in basic physics says this is not true. Do you have evidence that it is? The primary effect on braking is going to be from the coefficient of friction between the tire and the road - that is to say, the material of the tire you have, and the conditions of the road.

I'm a physicist, not a racer or tire expert, but a quick google search seems to support applying simple friction theory to actual practice: https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cultur ... out-tires/
You are correct.
The reason for bigger tires is heat evacuation and more material to wear out.
When tires get hot the friction coefficient changes. This is true only if you drive the car very hard (track).

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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by Starfish » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:35 pm

dodecahedron wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:36 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:48 am
dodecahedron wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:39 am
Totally scratching my head over what qualities make a car ¨fun" or ¨nonboring.¨ I drive my late husbandś 2007 Honda Accord and (finally) decided to figure out how to open the moonroof. It does seem a little more fun to drive around that way but I am guessing thatś not what people are talking about.
A few things in no particular order:

1) Responsiveness to driver input
2) Able to pull high G-forces (lateral or forward)
3) Sights/sounds that trigger the senses (nice engine noise, good body design)
4) Ability to use for a particular autosport activity (track days, drag racing, etc.)
5) Being unusual or out of the ordinary
6) Having a robust enthusiast community dedicated to the vehicle
7) Large aftermarket support for modifications

At the end of the day, if you aren't a car person, you aren't going to "get it." In the same way I don't "get" designer handbags. But some people get a kick out of such things, and who am I to judge?
Thanks! I don´t get the designer handbag thing either! Actually prefer to take public transit bus rather than driving when I can. I guess I am pretty low maintenance.

Designer handbags are for statute signaling.

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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by dziuniek » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:37 pm

adamthesmythe wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:59 pm
dziuniek wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:55 pm
Chan_va wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:48 pm
Is this a trick question? OP needs only 2 seats, and < 30k fun car. There is only one possible answer - a Miata
No there isn't.

370Z.....
A neighbor had a much earlier model...and his idiot car would talk to you. Or maybe it had cute chimes or whatever.

There's froufrou and there's being in touch with the road. The thing that makes the Miata so much fun...you don't have to drive it fast...you don't need to spend gas to get up to 70 in a few seconds...you can just have a blast driving it around town or a short ways out of town.

You've got me talked into getting another one...even though where I live it comes close to the least practical car.
Hey now...

I am a proud owner of a 2000 Toyota MR2 Spyder. The thing is awesome. I wouldn't mind if it was faster.

WhiteMaxima
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by WhiteMaxima » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:41 pm

vitaflo wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:48 pm
WhiteMaxima wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:02 pm
German cars are generally reliable and fun to drive. But cost of repair is high. Better to purchase extend warranty.
VW now has a 6 year, 72,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty (thanks dieselgate!). It was the deciding factor in me purchasing my new GTI.
Or even a VW Golf 6MT hatchback is fun to drive. I would like a TDi before.

InvisibleAerobar
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by InvisibleAerobar » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:50 pm

Charon wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:57 pm
monkey_business wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:48 pm
hand wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:43 pm
5) How do you define fun driving dynamics? Handling, power, other?
Handling, steering, size feel (don't want a car that feels heavy/big) mostly. Power not critical just don't want it to be slow. As long as it is ~7.5s 0-60 or faster it's fine.
I'm curious how often it matters to have a 0-60 that's 7.5s vs., say, 9.2s. I totally get not wanting a car that feels big and heavy, but the most acceleration I ever need is a local freeway on-ramp that's very short, steeply uphill, and begins from a stop sign. My slow ass Subaru Crosstrek (9.2s 0-60) has never had a problem merging, and usually I'm slowed down by cars in front of me.

Now, I certainly wouldn't recommend a Crosstrek for you - absolutely no reason to have that unless you want to go off road - but I'm just saying, how often does it really matter what the acceleration is.

That said, if I were buying a new car for use only on pavement and $30k were my cap, I'd look into a Chevy Bolt. With tax breaks you could probably make your limit, with a very practical car that also does 0-60 in 6.3s. Plus you'll save money on gas and maintenance. The new Leaf is another alternative.
in the Armpit of the U.S.A., very important. A lot of strip malls are built along highways where the speed limit is 55 mph; granted, cars in the right-most lane is probably traveling 40 mph, but you are still trying to merge from ~3-5mph, as there's almost no room for merging. Quick acceleration really helps here.

The state also has many highways with short merging zones; again, quick acceleration helps.

My old Camry V6 nominally had ~200 HP, but it always upshifted early, even when overdrive was turned off. My newer Camry V6 has ~260 HP, but the stand-out feature is sport mode, which really allows you to rev the engine. I believe the 0-60 for the old Camry was ~7 seconds, whereas 0-60 for the new Camry is 6 seconds. However, the really annoying thing with the old Camry was that once the car was moving, there was always a lag between hitting the gas and when the car actually started accelerating (again, even with overdrive off); in reality, i'd say that added another second.

The old Camry was also horrible at highway passing and accelerating out of corners, again due to that lag.

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munemaker
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by munemaker » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:00 pm

alfaspider wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:48 am

A few things in no particular order:

1) Responsiveness to driver input
2) Able to pull high G-forces (lateral or forward)
3) Sights/sounds that trigger the senses (nice engine noise, good body design)
4) Ability to use for a particular autosport activity (track days, drag racing, etc.)
5) Being unusual or out of the ordinary
6) Having a robust enthusiast community dedicated to the vehicle
7) Large aftermarket support for modifications
To me, you are mixing a car hobby with a fun to drive car. I can appreciate a fun to drive car, but I have no interest in driving on racetracks, being part of an enthusiast community or modifying the car with aftermarket parts. I also don't think a car being unusual is a quality that affects it being fun to drive.

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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by lazydavid » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:58 am

InvisibleAerobar wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:50 pm
My old Camry V6 nominally had ~200 HP, but it always upshifted early, even when overdrive was turned off. My newer Camry V6 has ~260 HP, but the stand-out feature is sport mode, which really allows you to rev the engine. I believe the 0-60 for the old Camry was ~7 seconds, whereas 0-60 for the new Camry is 6 seconds. However, the really annoying thing with the old Camry was that once the car was moving, there was always a lag between hitting the gas and when the car actually started accelerating (again, even with overdrive off); in reality, i'd say that added another second.
I think you might be confused about what overdrive actually is, because it has absolutely nothing to do with shift points. It is purely the availability of gears with a ratio taller than 1:1. For example, the 6-speed auto in the 2007+ Camry has a 4th gear at 1.000:1, 5th of 0.713:1, and 6th of 0.609:1. That enables better fuel economy when cruising on the highway. Disabling overdrive just means locking out 5th and 6th gear, making "direct drive" the top gear, which makes the engine drone and get horrible gas mileage at higher speeds. The transmission behaves the same otherwise.

To actually change shift points, something else has to be done. In older Camrys, there was an ECT (Electronically Controlled Transmission) button, with two settings. Norm would be the standard shift points, chosen for economy. Pwr would shift later (at redline, if you had the hammer down) for better acceleration. There is likely a similar concept in newer cars--in many (including both my BMW and Audi) it's "sport mode".

But all this begs the question. Why the hell are we still talking about Camrys?

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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by InvisibleAerobar » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:57 am

thanks for that explanation

def not suggesting a camry

hell, a lot of 3-series CPOs are listed at less than $30k; those are a lot more "fun"

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Kenkat
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by Kenkat » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:10 am

Fun and practicality run on continuums, typically in opposition to each other - i.e. more fun equals less practical.

So these threads basically evolve into placing cars that match our personal needs onto that continuum. For the original poster, you have to decide where you fall. If you like shifting through the twisties, it’s going to be hard to beat cars like the Miata, BRZ, etc. Not all that practical though. If horsepower and straight line acceleration are your thing, then cars like the Camaro, Mustang or Challenger might fit the bill. I have a Camaro, it is fun; it is not very practical. I also have an Odyssey; very practical and not much fun at all.

If you want something with 4 doors, good straight line acceleration and solid handling, maybe the BMWs are the thing. Small, quick, value priced and good on the twisties? GTI, Focus ST, etc. Want practical and maybe just a bit of fun? Maybe a V6 Acord or a Civic Si will do. These’s lots of other good choices in all of these categories of course. I’d start with some cars that pique your interest and then drive them. That will ultimately tell you which way to go.

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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by WhiteMaxima » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:26 am

PORSCHE BOXSTER S 6MT.

alfaspider
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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by alfaspider » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:16 am

munemaker wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:00 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:48 am

A few things in no particular order:

1) Responsiveness to driver input
2) Able to pull high G-forces (lateral or forward)
3) Sights/sounds that trigger the senses (nice engine noise, good body design)
4) Ability to use for a particular autosport activity (track days, drag racing, etc.)
5) Being unusual or out of the ordinary
6) Having a robust enthusiast community dedicated to the vehicle
7) Large aftermarket support for modifications
To me, you are mixing a car hobby with a fun to drive car. I can appreciate a fun to drive car, but I have no interest in driving on racetracks, being part of an enthusiast community or modifying the car with aftermarket parts. I also don't think a car being unusual is a quality that affects it being fun to drive.
Not everyone will have the same desires, but things like enthusiast communities add to the things you can do with the car. For example, you can go to enthusiast meets, which are fun for some people. An unusual car can also be fun because people are interested in your car. I've had a lot of fun talking to people about my unusual car. Modifying a car is an additional car-related activity that is fun for many people.

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Re: Good Non-Boring Boglehead Cars Under $30k

Post by alfaspider » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:19 am

Starfish wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:35 pm
dodecahedron wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:36 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:48 am
dodecahedron wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:39 am
Totally scratching my head over what qualities make a car ¨fun" or ¨nonboring.¨ I drive my late husbandś 2007 Honda Accord and (finally) decided to figure out how to open the moonroof. It does seem a little more fun to drive around that way but I am guessing thatś not what people are talking about.
A few things in no particular order:

1) Responsiveness to driver input
2) Able to pull high G-forces (lateral or forward)
3) Sights/sounds that trigger the senses (nice engine noise, good body design)
4) Ability to use for a particular autosport activity (track days, drag racing, etc.)
5) Being unusual or out of the ordinary
6) Having a robust enthusiast community dedicated to the vehicle
7) Large aftermarket support for modifications

At the end of the day, if you aren't a car person, you aren't going to "get it." In the same way I don't "get" designer handbags. But some people get a kick out of such things, and who am I to judge?
Thanks! I don´t get the designer handbag thing either! Actually prefer to take public transit bus rather than driving when I can. I guess I am pretty low maintenance.

Designer handbags are for statute signaling.
As a lawyer, I enjoyed this typo :mrgreen:

Cars can be for status signaling as well. For some people, that's part of the enjoyment. But I do think there are people who genuinely geek out about the aesthetics or craftsmanship of designer handbags. Some people drive Ferraris to show how rich they are, but others would want to drive one even if they were invisible to everyone else. Personally, I wish cars had less status signaling. I'd really prefer to drive a performance car without the social signaling baggage they often carry.

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