Cashing a check

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Almost there
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Cashing a check

Post by Almost there » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:54 pm

At the end of April, my 19 year old granddaughter used her cell phone to deposit the check for $50 I had given her. A couple of days later, the money was taken out of my checking account. In August I saw that $50 were taken out of my checking account, using the same check. Upon printing out both withdrawal checks, I noticed that the first check was marked LCNB National Bank, Mobile Deposit and the second check just LCNB National Bank. I contacted my granddaughter, who is a very honest young lady and who just received a nice scholarship for her first year of college. She said, that she didn't remember cashing it and had just found the check and went to the bank to deposit it into her account. She also apologized a number of times for her mistake. Since it's my granddaughter and certainly not a lot of money, I decided to just let it go and not get her in trouble..

The only thing that is still on my mind is that many people every day deposit checks using their cell phone. How can everyone make sure that their checks are not used again? Why didn't LCNB National Bank take notice that the check was deposited twice? Why didn't my bank take notice that I was charged twice for the same check? And no, I don't ever bank using my cell phone.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by TomatoTomahto » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:59 pm

You should suggest to your granddaughter that she write “deposited” on the face of checks after mobile depositing them. That’s what I do to assist my occasionally faulty memory.

PS that won’t solve the bank’s problem.
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:02 pm

Almost there wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:54 pm
At the end of April, my 19 year old granddaughter used her cell phone to deposit the check for $50 I had given her. A couple of days later, the money was taken out of my checking account. In August I saw that $50 were taken out of my checking account, using the same check. Upon printing out both withdrawal checks, I noticed that the first check was marked LCNB National Bank, Mobile Deposit and the second check just LCNB National Bank. I contacted my granddaughter, who is a very honest young lady and who just received a nice scholarship for her first year of college. She said, that she didn't remember cashing it and had just found the check and went to the bank to deposit it into her account. She also apologized a number of times for her mistake. Since it's my granddaughter and certainly not a lot of money, I decided to just let it go and not get her in trouble..

The only thing that is still on my mind is that many people every day deposit checks using their cell phone. How can everyone make sure that their checks are not used again? Why didn't LCNB National Bank take notice that the check was deposited twice? Why didn't my bank take notice that I was charged twice for the same check? And no, I don't ever bank using my cell phone.
this is interesting for sure. When I cashed a check by mobile app my bank tells me to hold on to the check for 30 days to make sure nothing went wrong in the process (and would require a redeposit or something). I hold on to the check for about a month after depositing it via phone and then dispose of it. I don't have too many checks and I can check my register to see it was already deposited and then I shred the actual check. But I have wondered if this was a problem for some. I assume most don't hold onto the checks after depositing, but it could be an issue as you have found. Guess it's another reason to move away from writing checks.

I have the opposite problem...a relative who only cashes the checks months later. As you can imagine, it's a problem not only for reconciling the account, but also worrying if the check has gotten into the wrong hands since it hasn't been cashed timely. Perhaps I'll have to check with my relative to see if they use some app like venmo.
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dm200
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by dm200 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:08 pm

A few years ago, when electronic scanning of checks first became common for businesses - I paid a specialist's copay with a personal check. They scanned it and got the credit - then they deposited the physical check. Eventually turned out ok since they saw the double deposit.

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flamesabers
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by flamesabers » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:23 pm

Almost there wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:54 pm
The only thing that is still on my mind is that many people every day deposit checks using their cell phone. How can everyone make sure that their checks are not used again? Why didn't LCNB National Bank take notice that the check was deposited twice? Why didn't my bank take notice that I was charged twice for the same check? And no, I don't ever bank using my cell phone.
I know with at least one local bank their policy is you have to write "mobile deposit" on the endorsement line if you're going to use their mobile deposit app. I would be surprised if a policy like this isn't common with banks that accept mobile deposits.

Amphian
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by Amphian » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:24 pm

dm200 wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:08 pm
A few years ago, when electronic scanning of checks first became common for businesses - I paid a specialist's copay with a personal check. They scanned it and got the credit - then they deposited the physical check. Eventually turned out ok since they saw the double deposit.
I had a similar thing happen in the same time period - with my rent check. After a week or so of my apartment complex refusing to do anything to fix the issue, I went to my bank. They agreed this was clearly a mistake and refunded the second payment - at which point I got an eviction notice from my apartment complex for non-payment of rent. After taking this up the chain of command for another two weeks with the company owning the complex, I ended up with an apology and a gift card. I stopped using checks to pay my rent at that point or soon after.

JW-Retired
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by JW-Retired » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:41 pm

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:02 pm
I have the opposite problem...a relative who only cashes the checks months later. As you can imagine, it's a problem not only for reconciling the account, but also worrying if the check has gotten into the wrong hands since it hasn't been cashed timely. Perhaps I'll have to check with my relative to see if they use some app like venmo.
Why not just stop payment on the "lost" check after months have past. When they notice I bet they will cash it promptly in the future. If you check with them they have no reason at all to do anything differently.
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whodidntante
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by whodidntante » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:05 pm

I really dislike mailing paper checks. Opportunities for fraud and honest mistakes are plentiful. Send the honest young lady a Zelle transfer or Venmo or Paypal or whatever you like, or use the Bill Pay function from your broker or your bank in the future. It completely avoids this problem.

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GoldStar
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by GoldStar » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:14 pm

My bank won't accept a mobile deposit unless it is endorsed "For <bank name> eDeposit only". That way I can't later sign it and cash it.

Dolcetto
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by Dolcetto » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:45 pm

Interesting that your bank doesn't reject a check that has already been cashed based on the check number. I figured they would. As someone who uses mobile deposit, I only endorse checks once I am ready to deposit them. If a check has been endorsed, it has been deposited. Simple.

mega317
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by mega317 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:12 pm

GoldStar wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:14 pm
My bank won't accept a mobile deposit unless it is endorsed "For <bank name> eDeposit only". That way I can't later sign it and cash it.
Which bank is that? Both of my banks say I must write some similar phrase but I have forgotten and the deposits were accepted.

criticalmass
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by criticalmass » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:13 pm

When e-depositing a large number of checks, we've sometimes used just a standard signature / endorsement for the reverse side to save a lot of time. It works fine. The image can't show that the front and back are the same piece of paper or not. We shred the checks after a week or so, unless there is a problem flagged.

But I'm surprised that the bank allowed the same check number to process twice. Then again, I'm not that surprised. Banks are lazy. Years ago they actually checked signatures and were more careful with checks. Now everything goes, despite a fraction of check volume that we had years ago. I've had plenty of checks go through with no endorsement at all. I've also seen checks process just fine, unsigned at all.

chevca
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by chevca » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:41 pm

Almost there wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:54 pm
Why didn't LCNB National Bank take notice that the check was deposited twice? Why didn't my bank take notice that I was charged twice for the same check?
Have you called your bank and asked them these questions? :happy

denovo
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by denovo » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:07 am

chevca wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:41 pm
Almost there wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:54 pm
Why didn't LCNB National Bank take notice that the check was deposited twice? Why didn't my bank take notice that I was charged twice for the same check?
Have you called your bank and asked them these questions? :happy
I really want to know what the bank says too.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln

MROCTOBER
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by MROCTOBER » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:00 am

I think these are all rare exceptions. Most (if not all) banks have deployed "duplicate detection" software which is designed to compare images of checks deposited against previous deposited checks. Since the advent of "Check 21" which laid out to the groundwork for image-based check processing, this has been a concern of banks. Sometimes its a simple mistake, many times attempted fraud. The detection works quite well on the match process. However, sometimes the human factor comes into play as an operator is tasked with review of the suspected items to "accept" or "reject". Overall, much has been done to prevent duplicate deposited items as additional entry points are implemented (mobile, ATM, commercial remote deposit). (Full disclosure, I had a long career in check processing technology).

OnceARunner
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by OnceARunner » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:49 am

chevca wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:41 pm
Almost there wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:54 pm
Why didn't LCNB National Bank take notice that the check was deposited twice? Why didn't my bank take notice that I was charged twice for the same check?
Have you called your bank and asked them these questions? :happy
Presumably he doesn't want to bring attention to the issue, or the bank may reverse the transaction causing problems for his granddaughter's account.

jm1495
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by jm1495 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:59 am

flamesabers wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:23 pm
Almost there wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:54 pm
The only thing that is still on my mind is that many people every day deposit checks using their cell phone. How can everyone make sure that their checks are not used again? Why didn't LCNB National Bank take notice that the check was deposited twice? Why didn't my bank take notice that I was charged twice for the same check? And no, I don't ever bank using my cell phone.
I know with at least one local bank their policy is you have to write "mobile deposit" on the endorsement line if you're going to use their mobile deposit app. I would be surprised if a policy like this isn't common with banks that accept mobile deposits.
Interestingly I read an article on this topic just yesterday. After July 1st banking regulations require the "for mobile deposit" endorsement on it.

http://news.cuna.org/articles/114554-co ... ive-july-1

Nate79
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by Nate79 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:37 am

For us both Wells Fargo and Charles Schwab have instructions in their app to write something like mobile deposit and date on the front of the check after it has been uploaded. Now I know why....

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deanbrew
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by deanbrew » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:45 am

whodidntante wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:05 pm
I really dislike mailing paper checks. Opportunities for fraud and honest mistakes are plentiful. Send the honest young lady a Zelle transfer or Venmo or Paypal or whatever you like, or use the Bill Pay function from your broker or your bank in the future. It completely avoids this problem.
[bolding mine]

I don't see how using the bank's Bill Pay function would change anything. If the payee isn't registered with the bank for electronic delivery, a paper check is sent through the mail, which would have to be deposited just like any other check. Or are you saying the bank's check would be treated differently on the other end?

I have to think the OP's experience was an aberration.
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sport
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by sport » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:58 am

MROCTOBER wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:00 am
I think these are all rare exceptions. Most (if not all) banks have deployed "duplicate detection" software which is designed to compare images of checks deposited against previous deposited checks. Since the advent of "Check 21" which laid out to the groundwork for image-based check processing, this has been a concern of banks. Sometimes its a simple mistake, many times attempted fraud. The detection works quite well on the match process. However, sometimes the human factor comes into play as an operator is tasked with review of the suspected items to "accept" or "reject". Overall, much has been done to prevent duplicate deposited items as additional entry points are implemented (mobile, ATM, commercial remote deposit). (Full disclosure, I had a long career in check processing technology).
Why would a bank need to compare images of checks with those previously deposited? All checks have numbers. It would seem to be routine not to pay the same numbered check more than once.

invst65
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by invst65 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:15 am

sport wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:58 am
MROCTOBER wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:00 am
I think these are all rare exceptions. Most (if not all) banks have deployed "duplicate detection" software which is designed to compare images of checks deposited against previous deposited checks. Since the advent of "Check 21" which laid out to the groundwork for image-based check processing, this has been a concern of banks. Sometimes its a simple mistake, many times attempted fraud. The detection works quite well on the match process. However, sometimes the human factor comes into play as an operator is tasked with review of the suspected items to "accept" or "reject". Overall, much has been done to prevent duplicate deposited items as additional entry points are implemented (mobile, ATM, commercial remote deposit). (Full disclosure, I had a long career in check processing technology).
Why would a bank need to compare images of checks with those previously deposited? All checks have numbers. It would seem to be routine not to pay the same numbered check more than once.
Banks do re-use check numbers.

https://ask.metafilter.com/71555/Are-ch ... s-onceonly

I have even seen business or government checks that all have the same check number. So it's not a reliable way of detecting a duplicate.

I'm a retired software engineer working mostly in the check cashing business and one of the last projects I worked on was the company's first venture into mobile deposits. It turned out to be ripe with fraud and I think they regretted doing it.

When my granddaughter opened a checking account at a bank they said they didn't have mobile deposit because they had tried it and the fraud losses were too great.

I bank with FIDO and they tell you to write "For Deposit only to Fidelity Bank Bank" on the back. Never tried cashing it without that endorsement but I think I will try it next time, just to see what happens.

michaeljc70
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by michaeljc70 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:09 pm

sport wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:58 am
MROCTOBER wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:00 am
I think these are all rare exceptions. Most (if not all) banks have deployed "duplicate detection" software which is designed to compare images of checks deposited against previous deposited checks. Since the advent of "Check 21" which laid out to the groundwork for image-based check processing, this has been a concern of banks. Sometimes its a simple mistake, many times attempted fraud. The detection works quite well on the match process. However, sometimes the human factor comes into play as an operator is tasked with review of the suspected items to "accept" or "reject". Overall, much has been done to prevent duplicate deposited items as additional entry points are implemented (mobile, ATM, commercial remote deposit). (Full disclosure, I had a long career in check processing technology).
Why would a bank need to compare images of checks with those previously deposited? All checks have numbers. It would seem to be routine not to pay the same numbered check more than once.
When you order checks you can get any number you want on them including duplicates. I would think the bank would catch this though by comparing the payee, amount, check date and check number. If they all match another transaction I would think it would be flagged.

z91
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by z91 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:55 pm

Chase requires you to write "Electronically deposited at Chase" in the endorsement area.

Alliant requires you to write "Electronically deposited" on the face of the check.

open_circuit
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by open_circuit » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:56 pm

z91 wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:55 pm
Chase requires you to write "Electronically deposited at Chase" in the endorsement area.

Alliant requires you to write "Electronically deposited" on the face of the check.
I've never written those phrases on an electronically deposited check, and I have never had an electronic deposit rejected. I don't think that's a requirement that they actually verify.

z91
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by z91 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:58 pm

open_circuit wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:56 pm
z91 wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:55 pm
Chase requires you to write "Electronically deposited at Chase" in the endorsement area.

Alliant requires you to write "Electronically deposited" on the face of the check.
I've never written those phrases on an electronically deposited check, and I have never had an electronic deposit rejected. I don't think that's a requirement that they actually verify.
And that's why OP got a check cashed twice. I don't ever want to do this accidentally so I do it whether or not the bank enforces it. Once my balance is updated I shred the check.

open_circuit
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by open_circuit » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:00 pm

z91 wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:58 pm
open_circuit wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:56 pm
z91 wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:55 pm
Chase requires you to write "Electronically deposited at Chase" in the endorsement area.

Alliant requires you to write "Electronically deposited" on the face of the check.
I've never written those phrases on an electronically deposited check, and I have never had an electronic deposit rejected. I don't think that's a requirement that they actually verify.
And that's why OP got a check cashed twice. I don't ever want to do this accidentally so I do it whether or not the bank enforces it. Once my balance is updated I shred the check.
Yep, good practice to do this. I don't see how putting the onus on the check recipient is going to solve OP's problem, though. The person who received the check didn't follow this method, and there was no closed-loop process to force them to do so. It seems like a difficult problem to solve while still using a check.

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GoldStar
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by GoldStar » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:02 pm

mega317 wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:12 pm
GoldStar wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:14 pm
My bank won't accept a mobile deposit unless it is endorsed "For <bank name> eDeposit only". That way I can't later sign it and cash it.
Which bank is that? Both of my banks say I must write some similar phrase but I have forgotten and the deposits were accepted.
Its a small regional bank in Massachusetts (the big banks charge fees, require minimums, etc. - I find I get more for less with the smaller bank).
Presumably they use the same third party application/service as other banks so perhaps the deposits would go through even if I didn't follow instruction - I don't know.

MichCPA
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by MichCPA » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:28 pm

mega317 wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:12 pm
GoldStar wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:14 pm
My bank won't accept a mobile deposit unless it is endorsed "For <bank name> eDeposit only". That way I can't later sign it and cash it.
Which bank is that? Both of my banks say I must write some similar phrase but I have forgotten and the deposits were accepted.
Same for me (PNC Bank), I have never had an issue cashing without that restrictive endorsement.

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lthenderson
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Re: Cashing a check

Post by lthenderson » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:36 pm

Nate79 wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:37 am
For us both Wells Fargo and Charles Schwab have instructions in their app to write something like mobile deposit and date on the front of the check after it has been uploaded. Now I know why....
I electronically deposit checks weekly using one of those mobile apps you mentioned and have never been told to write anything extra. Perhaps it is something being rolled out?

To the OP, my bank sends me an email within a couple minutes after the deposit was initiated verifying that it went through. At that point I shred the check.

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