Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

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Rupert
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Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:01 pm

Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by Rupert » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:45 am

Background: I have an approximately 100-year-old, 1.5 story bungalow on the Gulf Coast. Most living occurs on the first floor of the home. In the 1960s, some of the home's attic space was converted to living space. The result was a single barbell-shaped room (two open spaces at the gables connected by a short hallway in the middle) that is approximately 600-700 sq ft. That room is sandwiched between attic on one side (back of the house) and stairwell/attic on the other (front of the house), has a dormer window on the front side, and 2 double-hung windows at each end. Until recently, the upstairs space was used primarily for storage and guests. A few weeks ago, however, I moved one of my children up there. At this time, one end of the barbell-shaped space is a bedroom, and the other end contains a 3/4 bathroom, some closets, and a small office space.

The house has two HVAC units, one large unit that services the first floor and a smaller unit that services the upstairs space. The upstairs unit is all electric; downstairs has natural gas heat. The upstairs unit stopped working last week and apparently needs replacement. The blower motor has stopped working, and the unit is also low on coolant (old-style coolant, not the new stuff). The unit, which is a straight cool system with heat strips, is 23 years old.

Our climate is hot and humid. Even though the upstairs has new-ish cellulose insulation and new double-paned windows, it reached 97 degrees up there on Sunday with the windows open and a fan on. In winter, temperatures dip below freezing maybe a dozen days a year, and daytime temperatures usually rise into the 50s even when it has dipped below freezing over night. Because of the gas heat rising from the first floor, the upstairs space stays fairly comfortable until temperatures dip below 40 degrees. So, obviously, AC is more important than heat in the upstairs space. Note that the ductwork is in good shape and was recently sealed. So no need to replace ductwork.

I've gotten two quotes to replace the upstairs unit that have confused me, and my on-line research has not helped clarify things. Before I call in additional contractors for quotes, I need help evaluating the two proposals I've already received so that I can ask the contractors better questions. Here are the proposals:

1. Replace unit with a 2-ton 16 SEER 2-stage Rheem heat pump system (no model number provided) for $6989. Price includes new drain pan and thermostat. (Quote for comparable 14 SEER unit was $4589).

2. Replace unit with 1.5-ton 16 SEER single-stage Carrier Performance Series AC unit (model number 24ACC618A003, model number for air handler FX4DNF019L00) and auxiliary heater (model number FB4-5-1) for $6255. Price includes thermostat. (Quote for comparable 15 SEER unit was $5067).

Here's what confuses me about quotes. First, the Rheem guy is recommending a heat pump, but the Carrier guy said I don't have sufficient electricity upstairs to support a heat pump. He said I have a 30-amp breaker and need 60 amps for a heat pump. So Carrier guy recommended going with a system comparable to the one that's already there (straight AC with heat strips). How can the two contractors disagree on something as important (and, I would think, obvious) as that? Second, the tonnage. Should I go with a 1.5 ton or 2 ton unit? The Carrier guy said my space fell between the two, and that either would work well. He thought the 1.5 ton would work more efficiently. Both contractors recommended against a ductless mini-split system because of the shape of the space, which would require installing two heads. With two heads necessary, the price for the ductless unit is comparable to (and possibly more expensive than) the price of a traditional central unit. Plus there is no good wall space for hanging the heads.

Can anyone help me evaluate these quotes and this information? Are there other questions I should be asking? Are HVAC units really that expensive today, or are these quotes astronomically high? (Note one of the contractors told me their prices rose last month due to the new tariffs).

Housedoc
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Location: Alabama

Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by Housedoc » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:35 am

It will take years to recoup higher Seer rating price. I am in the Bham AL area and would suggest the 2 ton unit. Builder originally put 1.5 ton in my house. I couldn't keep up on hot days. 2 ton replacement runs log enough to remove humidity and moisture but keeps up easily. I have unit on programable thermostat. On hot days it can drop temp from 80 to 76 in 45 min or less. I never have been a heat pump fan for what its worth. Price is not the best, anyway to stick a 200 dollar window unit in and get by till October when business slacks up and price quotes improve?

livesoft
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Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by livesoft » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:51 am

Get two more quotes.
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renue74
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Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by renue74 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:06 am

Get a Manual J Load Test on your home. HVAC company goes through and looks at all the windows, factors in insulation, etc. and gives you a better idea of the system you need. A Manual J test cost about $150 here.

It's hot and humid where we are in the Southeast and we have a heat pump in our 2nd floor. I don't suggest it.

CRC301
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Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by CRC301 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:24 pm

renue74 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:06 am
Get a Manual J Load Test on your home. HVAC company goes through and looks at all the windows, factors in insulation, etc. and gives you a better idea of the system you need. A Manual J test cost about $150 here.

It's hot and humid where we are in the Southeast and we have a heat pump in our 2nd floor. I don't suggest it.
Yes to this!! Find a contractor who will do the manual J and then size the system off the output of the calculations. You'll be way happier in the end.

Also, don't fall into the "more tonnage the better" mindset. There are going to be a few days a year when your A/C system may run all day and barely move the temperature!! This is perfectly fine; It's a trade-off that must be made in order for the system to run more efficiently the majority of the time throughout the year the temperature isn't that high. If you oversize the system, when the temperature is more temperate outside you may build up humidity inside the house which is uncomfortable and in extreme situations can cause mold.

I can't speak to pricing in your specific market, but I paid around $6K last year for a 3-ton single-stage A/C system with 2-stage gas furnace (it gets cold in winter where I'm at). It was a 16-SEER unit on the A/C side and 80% efficient furnace; this is a middle of the road system in my area. I know that heat-pumps are more expensive so I would think the Rheem heat-pump system may be priced competitively but I have no clue about how competitive the Carrier system is.

Also the talk about the breaker amperage seems a bit weird to me too. I've always looked at heat pumps as being like a traditional A/C system with a "reverse gear " 8-) . Knowing that, the main power-draw in an A/C system is at the compressor outside; the inside normally doesn't need much more power than a standard 15-amp circuit. Electric heat though, that requires lots of amps and both systems use electric heat which causes a large power draw on the inside portion of the unit so...I don't know :D

I think that a 16 SEER unit is pretty close to the most efficient you can get without moving to a more expensive variable speed system (I actually think variable speed is overrated; they are more finicky and tend to break-down or need service calls more often). I would stick to the 16 SEER systems if it were me purchasing. Good luck!

djscal
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Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by djscal » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:42 pm

The non heat pump contractor is confused - a 2 ton heat pump typically uses vastly less power than a traditional ac condenser / furnace with heat strips. Nowhere near 60 amps would be needed.

30 amps should be more than enough power for a 2 ton heat pump - assuming no heat strips.

It would likely not be enough power for heat strips however.

You can look at the manual for the equipment that you are considering and it will clearly specify the amp requirements.

I.e.

I have a 3 ton lennox condenser on a 30 amp breaker.

Condensers and heat pumps usually have similar electrical requirements but all equipment has slightly different electrical requirements.

Heat pumps tend to be much more efficient than heat strips.

I agree with the other posters - you should have a manual J calculation done.

Anyone who says it's not needed should not be used as a contractor.

Oh one more thing the higher seer equipment tends to be much quieter. So even if you don't care about the few dollars of savings per year - your ears will thank you. I have a high end 21 seer lennox condenser for this reason (i have a small lot).

If you don't care about some more condenser noise go for the lower seer unit as the savings per year will be minor.

Lastly I have a 2 story house and zoning keeps the two levels at an even temperature throughout the year. W/out zoning or separate units per level it can be difficult to keep the two levels even. So it's good that you are keeping two systems one for each level.

Rupert
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Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by Rupert » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:44 am

Thank you all for your help. Yesterday I found an old-school HVAC repair guy who was magically able to fix my old system, at least temporarily. He agrees that it is on its last legs, but it should get me through this summer season and into the fall. He recommended replacing the unit with another comparable unit -- straight AC with heat strips -- and said the 30 amp breaker I have will be sufficient if I go with a smaller heat strip. He quoted a price of $3200 for an Ameristar system, which he said was manufactured by Trane. I'm unfamiliar with the brand. If anyone has had experiences with it, good or bad, I'd love to hear from you.

CRC301
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Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by CRC301 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:03 am

Rupert wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:44 am
Thank you all for your help. Yesterday I found an old-school HVAC repair guy who was magically able to fix my old system, at least temporarily. He agrees that it is on its last legs, but it should get me through this summer season and into the fall. He recommended replacing the unit with another comparable unit -- straight AC with heat strips -- and said the 30 amp breaker I have will be sufficient if I go with a smaller heat strip. He quoted a price of $3200 for an Ameristar system, which he said was manufactured by Trane. I'm unfamiliar with the brand. If anyone has had experiences with it, good or bad, I'd love to hear from you.
The installation is the most important part of a new HVAC system, the brand is second; so make sure installer is well experienced and has an eye for detail and just about any system should be fine. Still recommend getting someone who will do a manual J calculation though but that's my opinion.

As for Ameristar being the same as Trane? I know that Trane and American Standard are identical except the cabinets and panels are different colors (they even ship with the same user/installation manuals with both Trane and AS model numbers on the front). I'm not as familiar with Ameristar but my short googling found that they are under the Trane/AS umbrella but I think their A/C units are made in China and imported (Trane/AS units are "assembled" in America); Ameristar furnace's though are the same as Trane/AS but with different cabinets/panels. That is my understanding.

Rupert
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Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by Rupert » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:28 am

CRC301 wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:03 am
Rupert wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:44 am
Thank you all for your help. Yesterday I found an old-school HVAC repair guy who was magically able to fix my old system, at least temporarily. He agrees that it is on its last legs, but it should get me through this summer season and into the fall. He recommended replacing the unit with another comparable unit -- straight AC with heat strips -- and said the 30 amp breaker I have will be sufficient if I go with a smaller heat strip. He quoted a price of $3200 for an Ameristar system, which he said was manufactured by Trane. I'm unfamiliar with the brand. If anyone has had experiences with it, good or bad, I'd love to hear from you.
The installation is the most important part of a new HVAC system, the brand is second; so make sure installer is well experienced and has an eye for detail and just about any system should be fine. Still recommend getting someone who will do a manual J calculation though but that's my opinion.

As for Ameristar being the same as Trane? I know that Trane and American Standard are identical except the cabinets and panels are different colors (they even ship with the same user/installation manuals with both Trane and AS model numbers on the front). I'm not as familiar with Ameristar but my short googling found that they are under the Trane/AS umbrella but I think their A/C units are made in China and imported (Trane/AS units are "assembled" in America); Ameristar furnace's though are the same as Trane/AS but with different cabinets/panels. That is my understanding.
Thank you. I will get the manual J calculation before buying a new unit, and my Googling has uncovered the same information you found about Ameristar. The guy yesterday recommended a 2 ton unit. He is the retired HVAC maintenance man for the local public school system who now runs his own small shop. So he said his specialty is getting old units to run well past their "sell by date." Each of the prior servicemen had told me my blower motor had to be replaced and that it would be expensive because of its age (if they could even find the part). The guy yesterday laughed about that and said that younger repairmen are used to working on newer units with sealed bearings. My unit is so old that the motor was manufactured with ports that allow you to oil the bearings. So that's what he did and it worked. I watched him meticulously take the motor apart, clean it, oil it and put it back together. It inspired some confidence in his competence.

CRC301
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Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by CRC301 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:34 am

Rupert wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:28 am
CRC301 wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:03 am
Rupert wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:44 am
Thank you all for your help. Yesterday I found an old-school HVAC repair guy who was magically able to fix my old system, at least temporarily. He agrees that it is on its last legs, but it should get me through this summer season and into the fall. He recommended replacing the unit with another comparable unit -- straight AC with heat strips -- and said the 30 amp breaker I have will be sufficient if I go with a smaller heat strip. He quoted a price of $3200 for an Ameristar system, which he said was manufactured by Trane. I'm unfamiliar with the brand. If anyone has had experiences with it, good or bad, I'd love to hear from you.
The installation is the most important part of a new HVAC system, the brand is second; so make sure installer is well experienced and has an eye for detail and just about any system should be fine. Still recommend getting someone who will do a manual J calculation though but that's my opinion.

As for Ameristar being the same as Trane? I know that Trane and American Standard are identical except the cabinets and panels are different colors (they even ship with the same user/installation manuals with both Trane and AS model numbers on the front). I'm not as familiar with Ameristar but my short googling found that they are under the Trane/AS umbrella but I think their A/C units are made in China and imported (Trane/AS units are "assembled" in America); Ameristar furnace's though are the same as Trane/AS but with different cabinets/panels. That is my understanding.
...
The guy yesterday laughed about that and said that younger repairmen are used to working on newer units with sealed bearings. My unit is so old that the motor was manufactured with ports that allow you to oil the bearings. So that's what he did and it worked. I watched him meticulously take the motor apart, clean it, oil it and put it back together. It inspired some confidence in his competence.
He sounds great!!! :sharebeer

2comma
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Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by 2comma » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:43 am

Rupert wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:44 am
Thank you all for your help. Yesterday I found an old-school HVAC repair guy who was magically able to fix my old system, at least temporarily. He agrees that it is on its last legs, but it should get me through this summer season and into the fall. He recommended replacing the unit with another comparable unit -- straight AC with heat strips -- and said the 30 amp breaker I have will be sufficient if I go with a smaller heat strip. He quoted a price of $3200 for an Ameristar system, which he said was manufactured by Trane. I'm unfamiliar with the brand. If anyone has had experiences with it, good or bad, I'd love to hear from you.
I do a lot of DIY and decided to learn how to diagnose and fix simple things in my HVAC (not so much a money thing but sometimes you can't get someone to fix things quickly). After a little youtube schooling I can at least check and replace a capacitor or figure out if our dog has chewed through the thermostat wires! I spent a lot of time on youtube channels of small HVAC guys. One thing I learned was they didn't like Trane, not because there was anything wrong with them, they just had quotas and most of the small guys couldn't sell enough to qualify. BTY, when they fixed a Trane you'd hear them say "nothing stops a Trane" sarcastically. So, my take from all that watching was it's the install that counts and most brands are pretty much the same and I my preference is to find a small, honest company and treat them like gold - sounds like you've found him.
If I am stupid I will pay.

UALflyer
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Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by UALflyer » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:47 pm

2comma wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:43 am
I spent a lot of time on youtube channels of small HVAC guys. One thing I learned was they didn't like Trane, not because there was anything wrong with them, they just had quotas and most of the small guys couldn't sell enough to qualify.
Trane, Lennox and Carrier all have sales quotas, as well as additional requirements for their authorized contractors, and make it difficult for the ones who are not authorized to work on them to get replacement parts. Hence, the reason that most smaller a/c companies don't like any of these companies and their systems.

One of the reasons that these companies impose all these requirements is for quality control reasons, which is not a bad thing. After all, one of the reasons that Goodman, for instance, is frequently looked down upon is because it has no such requirements, which allows just about any joe shmoe from the street to buy and install them, and to service them using low quality generic parts. This causes lots of problems down the road, and Goodman gets blamed for them.

Hence, the requirements that Trane, Lennox and Carrier impose eliminate the above issues. The flip side, however, is the fact that the a/c industry as a whole tends to attract a lot of poorly trained and downright incompetent contractors, so while Trane, Lennox and Carrier's requirements eliminate the above issues, you can still easily end up with an incompetent technician.
So, my take from all that watching was it's the install that counts and most brands are pretty much the same
Yes and no. With Lennox, for instance, the Elite line (which is its mid-level line) comes with a nicer cabinet, which makes it easier to clean the coil and, most importantly, it has high and low pressure switches that protect the compressor against high refrigerant pressure and loss of charge. The Merit line, which is Lennox's budget line, does not. The Elite line's condensers are also quieter.
Last edited by UALflyer on Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

denovo
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Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by denovo » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:07 pm

livesoft wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:51 am
Get two more quotes.
+1
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln

Rupert
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Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by Rupert » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:21 pm

UALflyer wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:47 pm
The flip side, however, is the fact that the a/c industry as a whole tends to attract a lot of poorly trained and downright incompetent contractors, so while Trane, Lennox and Carrier's requirements eliminate the above issues, you can still easily end up with an incompetent technician.
+1. See, for example, my story above about the Carrier and Rheem technicians who told me my blower motor had to be replaced because it had seized up when all it really needed was a competent technician who knew that it was possible to oil the bearings in the motor.

So I guess a competent technician who runs his own shop might be limited to installing lesser brands of HVAC units, e.g., the Goodmans and Ameristars, because he doesn't move enough volume and refuses to push the service contracts that the big outfits push? So what is a consumer to do -- choose a better product or a better technician?

WillRetire
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Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by WillRetire » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:49 pm

renue74 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:06 am
It's hot and humid where we are in the Southeast and we have a heat pump in our 2nd floor. I don't suggest it.
Do you mind elaborating on why you don't suggest a heat pump for a 2nd floor in the southeast? What do you suggest instead?

As a resident of the southeast with a heat pump, that is on its last legs, for the 2nd floor (1/2 floor), I am keenly interested in this subject.

Thanks!

Saving$
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Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by Saving$ » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:12 pm

renue74 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:06 am
Get a Manual J Load Test on your home. HVAC company goes through and looks at all the windows, factors in insulation, etc. and gives you a better idea of the system you need. A Manual J test cost about $150 here.

It's hot and humid where we are in the Southeast and we have a heat pump in our 2nd floor. I don't suggest it.

This. But DO NOT get the manual J from an HVAC contractor. Try to hire an independent, preferably an engineering firm. Or you can try to do your own on www.coolcalc.com if you have some knowledge of building systems. Unless the area is not at all well sealed, I seriously doubt a 600-700 sf space needs more than 1.5 tons (if it even needs that). Most HVAC systems in the US are vastly oversized causing them to operate inefficiently and cycle resulting in insufficient removal of humidity. And I agree with those advising you will never recoup the cost increase of a unit over 14 SEER. You have had the space insulated - did they also do a blower door test?

mcamp18
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Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by mcamp18 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:25 pm

Go to the web site www.hvac-talk.com

There will be lots of great information on that site. I suggest you repost your original post from this forum on that site. That site has loads of knowledgeable HVAC professionals.

You can not post pricing in that forum.

A big message you will get on the forum is to use experienced installers. An average system installer by an expert beats a an elite system installed by inexperienced people.

I never purchase an extended warranty for anything! The pros on HVAC-talk
told me to purchase an extended warranty and that has proven to be be an excellent decision.

UALflyer
Posts: 255
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:42 am

Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by UALflyer » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:29 am

Rupert wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:21 pm
UALflyer wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:47 pm
The flip side, however, is the fact that the a/c industry as a whole tends to attract a lot of poorly trained and downright incompetent contractors, so while Trane, Lennox and Carrier's requirements eliminate the above issues, you can still easily end up with an incompetent technician.
+1. See, for example, my story above about the Carrier and Rheem technicians who told me my blower motor had to be replaced because it had seized up when all it really needed was a competent technician who knew that it was possible to oil the bearings in the motor.

So I guess a competent technician who runs his own shop might be limited to installing lesser brands of HVAC units, e.g., the Goodmans and Ameristars, because he doesn't move enough volume and refuses to push the service contracts that the big outfits push? So what is a consumer to do -- choose a better product or a better technician?
I completely agree that a competent a/c tech is significantly more important that the a/c brand, as an improperly configured and installed a/c system simply won't work well regardless of its brand.

The brand itself is of relatively low importance, but the features can be. Depending on the specific features that you're looking for, a certain brand and line (remember that each brand typically has a budget line, a mid line, and a high end line) may make more sense than another one. The so-called "lesser" brands of HVAC systems won't necessarily break down more either, so I wouldn't look down on them, especially when you're comparing them to the big boys' budget lines (Lennox Merit, Trane XB, etc...). I would, however, look at the features that may be important to you.

djscal
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Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by djscal » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:49 pm

Agree with the installer being the more important part of the equation. But what people forget tend to forget is that the low end equipment tends to be very noisy. Most brands have three different lines - low, mid, high. So saying it's a Trane or Lennox or Rheem doesn't mean much - you need more detail. Model numbers in particular.

I installed a low end goodman furnace in a rental property and it's horrendously loud when it runs (inshot burners). I had a few different techs look at it to see if it was normal - they all said - yep that's what they sound like.

At my house I have higher end Lennox equipment and it's very quiet to the point that you can barely hear it run.

Outdoor condensers and heat pumps are similar in nature.

The low end units tend to be very loud and some have annoying frequencies.

So if not being annoyed by noisy equipment is important to you - do not get a low end heat pump / condenser / furnace / air handler. Usually the middle range equipment is fairly quiet and has better sound insulation and also tends to only be a little bit more expensive than the low end models. As in hundreds of dollars of difference - really not much in the scheme of things.

(But also go with an experienced installer)

JohnF
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Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by JohnF » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:54 pm

It seems to me your experience with the current system should be as good if not better than any Manual J.

If on a hot day (design temp for your location) the current system ran more or less continuously to maintain set point replace with the same size. If it couldn’t maintain set point increase by ½ ton. And if it cycled frequently decrease by ½ ton.

bluelight
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Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by bluelight » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:37 pm

mcamp18 wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:25 pm
Go to the web site www.hvac-talk.com

There will be lots of great information on that site. I suggest you repost your original post from this forum on that site. That site has loads of knowledgeable HVAC professionals.

You can not post pricing in that forum.

A big message you will get on the forum is to use experienced installers. An average system installer by an expert beats a an elite system installed by inexperienced people.

I never purchase an extended warranty for anything! The pros on HVAC-talk
told me to purchase an extended warranty and that has proven to be be an excellent decision.
Absolutely agree. I had central AC installed in my previous house. I had 3 quotes then took them to hvac-talk (without the prices) and listened to what the pros had to say about the units that were proposed. I made my choice afterward based on their recommendations and was not disappointed.

Rupert
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Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:01 pm

Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by Rupert » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:03 am

Thank you all for your help.

looking
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Location: morgan hill ,ca

Re: Need Help Evaluating HVAC Needs and Quotes

Post by looking » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:59 pm

so confused as to how to go by the hvac to install my heat and ductwork

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