Kitchen Remodel

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Post Reply
WhiteMaxima
Posts: 1387
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 5:04 pm

Kitchen Remodel

Post by WhiteMaxima » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:52 pm

DW and I like to cook at home. Decide to remodel the kitchen. We will replace the electric range to nature gas range (Wolf Viking or La Couner), add powerful hood, replace dishwasher to Bosch. Add a subzero fridge. Will need to change the floor material and tile wall. Any recommendations? Thanks.


123
Posts: 3711
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by 123 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:07 pm

If you're going for Wolf/Viking/Subzero appliances it sounds like you don't have any budget constraints. Enjoy the project!
The closest helping hand is at the end of your own arm.

sport
Posts: 7264
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:26 pm
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by sport » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:14 pm

When we built our new house, we used Permastone luxury vinyl tile in the kitchen. It is low maintenance, and still looks very nice after 12 years. We have been very happy with it.

stan1
Posts: 5896
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:35 pm

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by stan1 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:32 pm

I'll start at the beginning. A big contributor to a successful kitchen remodel is hiring an experienced kitchen designer. If you are going to spend over $50K on appliances don't skimp on the design. Look at portfolios first to get a feel for what you like. A designer might tell you she can work with any style, but when you look at their portfolio you will see common themes. Identify 3-5 designers whose work you like and meet with them. Choose a designer before you choose a line of cabinetry. Don't rule out a designer who wants a design fee up front. Put it this way: you are asking a professional to put a lot of time into a project before you've signed on as a customer. If you were the best kitchen designer in your city or state would you work for free?

A big factor in the down-select should be how the designer interacts with you when reviewing the concept. Does the designer listen to you and incorporate feedback? Does the designer give you good ideas? Does the designer help you and your spouse reach consensus? After spending some time with several designers you'll get a feel for which one is right.

Appliances: don't overlook Miele. Their combination steam oven is top of the class and their dishwashers are amazingly quiet and are very easy to load.

spooky105
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:38 pm

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by spooky105 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:38 pm

Researched appliances for several months prior to upgrading about a year ago. Talking to all of the local dealers selling Wolf, Viking, Miele, Sub Zero, etc. as well as researching multiple online forums I found the below:

If you care more about cooking than checking the standard boxes for luxury kitchen appliances, then look at Bluestar & Capital for gas ranges. If you have to run a gas line, then you should be considering whether you can update the electrical for induction. It is more efficient and otherwise equal or better than gas (similar temperature response, but faster heating times without the waste heat). That said, folks (myself included) have an emotional attachment to cooking with gas.

Unless you are already configured for built-in, many of the high-end fridge models offer equivalent performance to Sub Zero, etc. They're not as overbuilt physically, but separate cooling systems for freezer and fridge, improved temperature control, air purification, etc. are no longer exclusive to Sub. For half to a third of the Sub Zero price, you can get comparable performance with a wider variety of design choices from multiple brands.

Definitely look at Miele.

Rupert
Posts: 3636
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:01 pm

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by Rupert » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:58 pm

Never buy an expensive appliance for which there is no local repairman.

WhiteMaxima
Posts: 1387
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 5:04 pm

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by WhiteMaxima » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:50 pm

My thinking is to cook more healthy and tasty food at home instead of going out. Spend more to save.

Rupert
Posts: 3636
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:01 pm

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by Rupert » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:56 pm

WhiteMaxima wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:50 pm
My thinking is to cook more healthy and tasty food at home instead of going out. Spend more to save.
You don't need a Viking range or Subzero refrigerator to do that. You'll have more money to buy better food if you buy cheaper appliances.

multiham
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:28 am

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by multiham » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:13 am

WhiteMaxima wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:52 pm
DW and I like to cook at home. Decide to remodel the kitchen. We will replace the electric range to nature gas range (Wolf Viking or La Couner), add powerful hood, replace dishwasher to Bosch. Add a subzero fridge. Will need to change the floor material and tile wall. Any recommendations? Thanks.
Just starting to look at appliances. I have had 2 owners of appliance stores give me the same advice:
  • If you are a great cook and just want a great cooking experience, buy Wolf
  • you like to cook, but are not very creative and want help, buy the Miele with the Master Chef functionality. It does everything but buy the food
Would also agree with the person who said to not buy a brand that does not have authorized repair people in your area. Consensus from our conversations is that Wolf has the best customer service, Viking is terrible and has been dropped by many stores, Miele is very good.

stan1
Posts: 5896
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:35 pm

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by stan1 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:43 am

WhiteMaxima wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:50 pm
My thinking is to cook more healthy and tasty food at home instead of going out. Spend more to save.
With that as a stated objective I'd definitely consider the Miele induction cooktop and a combi convection steam oven and/or a convection speed oven. All make cooking at home faster and easier. The combi steam oven is great for fish, vegetables, and eggs. The convection element browns so it also works great for meat. The induction cooktop boils very quickly and the glass top is much easier to clean up than a range. The induction cooktop also doesn't generate as much ambient heat so you won't need as much exhaust capacity in the hood which can add a lot of cost. High capacity exhaust fans need 9" or 10" ducting. Our house has 7" ducting. Building codes also require that high capacity ventilation fans need a make-up air source to draw air into the fan. If you live in a cold or humid climate you may want to run that air through your heating and cooling system rather than pulling it in directly from outside. It gets complicated.

If you were a gourmet chef I'd say go with a 48" Wolf range. We live in a climate where we can BBQ outside year round so we would generally not grill meat indoors.

User avatar
Sandtrap
Posts: 5323
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:32 pm
Location: Hawaii😀 Northern AZ.😳 Retired.

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by Sandtrap » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:02 am

Thoughts.
1 Buy a range hood that is powerful, but "quiet".
2. Upsize the range hood duct to exterior wall.
3. Heat generating appliances with the digital control board near the heat need more repairs.
4. Buy appliances per a history of long term reliability and function vs "name" and cosmetics.
5. A floor color and pattern that hides food and little things on it is tough.
6. Consider high quality forever stone or tile floor in an elegant pattern and color.
7. Cabinetry with rolling shelves and other features to save the "back" is worth a million ice packs.
8. The corners of a range hood or cooktop hood should never ever be below the tallest person in the house. :shock:

aloha
j

stan1
Posts: 5896
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:35 pm

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by stan1 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:30 am

Sandtrap wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:02 am

7. Cabinetry with rolling shelves and other features to save the "back" is worth a million ice packs.
8. The corners of a range hood or cooktop hood should never ever be below the tallest person in the house. :shock:
7. What is a rolling shelf? It's a flat drawer behind a door. Just get drawers in the first place for most items (pots, pans, baking dishes, plastic containers, many small appliances). In pantries try to do 12-15" deep shelves so you don't end up burying items at the back.
8. Yes, this was a major factor for me having punctured my forehead several times in our old house. Can be done if everyone is under 6' but if there are 6' plus people at least get a hood with widely rounded corners and no sharp edges so its just a bump not a puncture wound.

Carefreeap
Posts: 2395
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:36 pm
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by Carefreeap » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:32 am

Sandtrap wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:02 am
Thoughts.
1 Buy a range hood that is powerful, but "quiet".
2. Upsize the range hood duct to exterior wall.
3. Heat generating appliances with the digital control board near the heat need more repairs.
4. Buy appliances per a history of long term reliability and function vs "name" and cosmetics.
5. A floor color and pattern that hides food and little things on it is tough.
6. Consider high quality forever stone or tile floor in an elegant pattern and color.
7. Cabinetry with rolling shelves and other features to save the "back" is worth a million ice packs.
8. The corners of a range hood or cooktop hood should never ever be below the tallest person in the house. :shock:

aloha
j
+1

And to underscore the bolded, OP, make sure to talk to people who own and USE the high-end appliances. Our friends who actually cook haven't been happy with the reliability of the higher end stuff.

My husband loves to cook and we certainly had the means to go much higher end but we went with mid-grade appliances about 5 years ago and are still happy with our choices.

Carefreeap
Posts: 2395
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:36 pm
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by Carefreeap » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:37 am

stan1 wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:30 am
Sandtrap wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:02 am

7. Cabinetry with rolling shelves and other features to save the "back" is worth a million ice packs.
8. The corners of a range hood or cooktop hood should never ever be below the tallest person in the house. :shock:
7. What is a rolling shelf? It's a flat drawer behind a door. Just get drawers in the first place for most items (pots, pans, baking dishes, plastic containers, many small appliances). In pantries try to do 12-15" deep shelves so you don't end up burying items at the back.
8. Yes, this was a major factor for me having punctured my forehead several times in our old house. Can be done if everyone is under 6' but if there are 6' plus people at least get a hood with widely rounded corners and no sharp edges so its just a bump not a puncture wound.
That doesn't work well below a sink. We used a lot of drawers in our last remodel but also have a few rolling shelves. We also used them to retrofit cabinets that had been installed 12 years before but were still functional. For both functional and aesthetic reasons we liked to mix the two looks.

megabad
Posts: 585
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:00 pm

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by megabad » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:43 am

It wasn't clear from your OP but I am assuming this is a full kitchen reno? If so, I have couple tips if you want to go high end:

1) painted and sealed custom cabinets that are 100% wood (we had the cheap, store bought particle board ones orginally and they don't hold up against water)
2) soft close door/drawer hardware (once you have, you will understand)
3) Epoxy grout on tile backsplash (our normal grout got dirty and we replaced with this which looks spotless years later)
4) Quartz countertops (got this after our granite cracked)
5) wine fridge (sounds silly but it is probably the most heavily used item for us)

stan1
Posts: 5896
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:35 pm

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by stan1 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:49 am

Carefreeap wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:37 am
stan1 wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:30 am
Sandtrap wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:02 am

7. Cabinetry with rolling shelves and other features to save the "back" is worth a million ice packs.
8. The corners of a range hood or cooktop hood should never ever be below the tallest person in the house. :shock:
7. What is a rolling shelf? It's a flat drawer behind a door. Just get drawers in the first place for most items (pots, pans, baking dishes, plastic containers, many small appliances). In pantries try to do 12-15" deep shelves so you don't end up burying items at the back.
8. Yes, this was a major factor for me having punctured my forehead several times in our old house. Can be done if everyone is under 6' but if there are 6' plus people at least get a hood with widely rounded corners and no sharp edges so its just a bump not a puncture wound.
That doesn't work well below a sink. We used a lot of drawers in our last remodel but also have a few rolling shelves. We also used them to retrofit cabinets that had been installed 12 years before but were still functional. For both functional and aesthetic reasons we liked to mix the two looks.
Yes I agree it would not be a good idea to put a drawer under a kitchen sink. We did not put a pull out shelf under our sink because it makes it tighter for the person who has to work under the sink for repairs (often me). We put a matt under the sink that has depressions in it to hold any water leaks along with a water detector that sounds an alarm if there is a leak (we've had one leak already and everything worked perfectly). We keep under sink cleaners in plastic bins that we can bring up to the counter when we use them so we don't have to do a lot of bending. We keep dishwasher tablets in a drawer near the dishwasher again so there's less bending down. Yes also agree pull out shelves are easier to retrofit into existing cabinets with shelves than drawers. Also if you do end up with a counter depth pantry some adjustable roll out shelves might be a good addition.

stan1
Posts: 5896
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:35 pm

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by stan1 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:15 am

megabad wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:43 am
It wasn't clear from your OP but I am assuming this is a full kitchen reno? If so, I have couple tips if you want to go high end:

1) painted and sealed custom cabinets that are 100% wood (we had the cheap, store bought particle board ones orginally and they don't hold up against water)
2) soft close door/drawer hardware (once you have, you will understand)
3) Epoxy grout on tile backsplash (our normal grout got dirty and we replaced with this which looks spotless years later)
4) Quartz countertops (got this after our granite cracked)
5) wine fridge (sounds silly but it is probably the most heavily used item for us)
1) There's different grades of MDF and by 100% wood I'm assuming you mean a plywood carcass. I had low grade builder particle board cabinets in a former house that were ugly and broke apart. Vinyl laminated shelves were minimally better. Now I have an MDF carcass on my cabinets and interior surfaces have a hard laminated surface so drops or pools of water won't sink into the material. We have MDF slab doors and drawers painted with an automobile grade hard shell lacquer that's been amazing so far. We don't have kids and I would get something else if we did. MDF is more stable than joined wood for slab fronts. If you have a major kitchen flood and the cabinets soak up a lot of water plywood carcasses will also need to be replaced. Insurance should cover that.
2) Absolutely. I'd go so far as to specify Blum hardware and its also a sign the cabinets will be higher quality. The Blum knock offs in our experience aren't the same. It makes a huge difference.
3) Absolutely.
4) I'm mixed on man made quartz. It chips easier than granite, when it does chip its more visible, and slabs can get resin pooling so you need to inspect the slab carefully before you buy it. Manufacturers do not consider resin pooling to be a defect. It does seem more environmentally conscious for those who don't like the idea of cutting slabs of stone out of the ground and putting them into their kitchen. I don't think the perfect material exists yet (it would be a combination that brings the best of both man made quartz and Corian without the drawbacks of either).

straws46
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:12 am

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by straws46 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:16 pm

Regarding appliances the two best things we did were (1) installed a Thermadore steam oven. Pricey but beautiful and the healthiest form of cooking; (2) did not get a built-in microwave. Put an outlet in a cabinet and it's out of sight and if it ever breaks we'll spend $75 for a new one. Also love our quartzite island top.

Dottie57
Posts: 4478
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 5:43 pm

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by Dottie57 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:58 pm

stan1 wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:49 am
Carefreeap wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:37 am
stan1 wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:30 am
Sandtrap wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:02 am

7. Cabinetry with rolling shelves and other features to save the "back" is worth a million ice packs.
8. The corners of a range hood or cooktop hood should never ever be below the tallest person in the house. :shock:
7. What is a rolling shelf? It's a flat drawer behind a door. Just get drawers in the first place for most items (pots, pans, baking dishes, plastic containers, many small appliances). In pantries try to do 12-15" deep shelves so you don't end up burying items at the back.
8. Yes, this was a major factor for me having punctured my forehead several times in our old house. Can be done if everyone is under 6' but if there are 6' plus people at least get a hood with widely rounded corners and no sharp edges so its just a bump not a puncture wound.
That doesn't work well below a sink. We used a lot of drawers in our last remodel but also have a few rolling shelves. We also used them to retrofit cabinets that had been installed 12 years before but were still functional. For both functional and aesthetic reasons we liked to mix the two looks.
Yes I agree it would not be a good idea to put a drawer under a kitchen sink. We did not put a pull out shelf under our sink because it makes it tighter for the person who has to work under the sink for repairs (often me). We put a matt under the sink that has depressions in it to hold any water leaks along with a water detector that sounds an alarm if there is a leak (we've had one leak already and everything worked perfectly). We keep under sink cleaners in plastic bins that we can bring up to the counter when we use them so we don't have to do a lot of bending. We keep dishwasher tablets in a drawer near the dishwasher again so there's less bending down. Yes also agree pull out shelves are easier to retrofit into existing cabinets with shelves than drawers. Also if you do end up with a counter depth pantry some adjustable roll out shelves might be a good addition.
I do have a rolling shelf under the sink. It weks well for me.

ResearchMed
Posts: 7211
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by ResearchMed » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:32 pm

Dottie57 wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:58 pm
stan1 wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:49 am
Carefreeap wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:37 am
stan1 wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:30 am
Sandtrap wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:02 am

7. Cabinetry with rolling shelves and other features to save the "back" is worth a million ice packs.
8. The corners of a range hood or cooktop hood should never ever be below the tallest person in the house. :shock:
7. What is a rolling shelf? It's a flat drawer behind a door. Just get drawers in the first place for most items (pots, pans, baking dishes, plastic containers, many small appliances). In pantries try to do 12-15" deep shelves so you don't end up burying items at the back.
8. Yes, this was a major factor for me having punctured my forehead several times in our old house. Can be done if everyone is under 6' but if there are 6' plus people at least get a hood with widely rounded corners and no sharp edges so its just a bump not a puncture wound.
That doesn't work well below a sink. We used a lot of drawers in our last remodel but also have a few rolling shelves. We also used them to retrofit cabinets that had been installed 12 years before but were still functional. For both functional and aesthetic reasons we liked to mix the two looks.
Yes I agree it would not be a good idea to put a drawer under a kitchen sink. We did not put a pull out shelf under our sink because it makes it tighter for the person who has to work under the sink for repairs (often me). We put a matt under the sink that has depressions in it to hold any water leaks along with a water detector that sounds an alarm if there is a leak (we've had one leak already and everything worked perfectly). We keep under sink cleaners in plastic bins that we can bring up to the counter when we use them so we don't have to do a lot of bending. We keep dishwasher tablets in a drawer near the dishwasher again so there's less bending down. Yes also agree pull out shelves are easier to retrofit into existing cabinets with shelves than drawers. Also if you do end up with a counter depth pantry some adjustable roll out shelves might be a good addition.
I do have a rolling shelf under the sink. It weks well for me.
The kitchen in our house already had rolling shelves in ALL of the lower cabinets (but not under the sink), and it's been a wonderful convenience.

I'd actually call them "shelf/drawers", as they have very low sides, so that nothing falls off or gets caught, because they obviously aren't attached to the side or back walls, the way a fixed shelf would be.

Do keep in mind counter space next to appliances.
I've seen homes where the fridge is by itself, which makes taking things out a bit annoying if one wants to set something off the the side, to get to something else, etc.
And as with the "shelf/drawers" I mentioned above, having shelves in the fridge pull out can also work well for "things in the back".

Especially make sure there is counter space right near an over, so if you have something heavy and very hot, there is a place to put it immediately. (And keep something like a silicon mat there or metal grille, so you don't crack granite or such.)

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.

Carefreeap
Posts: 2395
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:36 pm
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by Carefreeap » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:33 pm

stan1 wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:49 am
Carefreeap wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:37 am
stan1 wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:30 am
Sandtrap wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:02 am

7. Cabinetry with rolling shelves and other features to save the "back" is worth a million ice packs.
8. The corners of a range hood or cooktop hood should never ever be below the tallest person in the house. :shock:
7. What is a rolling shelf? It's a flat drawer behind a door. Just get drawers in the first place for most items (pots, pans, baking dishes, plastic containers, many small appliances). In pantries try to do 12-15" deep shelves so you don't end up burying items at the back.
8. Yes, this was a major factor for me having punctured my forehead several times in our old house. Can be done if everyone is under 6' but if there are 6' plus people at least get a hood with widely rounded corners and no sharp edges so its just a bump not a puncture wound.
That doesn't work well below a sink. We used a lot of drawers in our last remodel but also have a few rolling shelves. We also used them to retrofit cabinets that had been installed 12 years before but were still functional. For both functional and aesthetic reasons we liked to mix the two looks.
Yes I agree it would not be a good idea to put a drawer under a kitchen sink. We did not put a pull out shelf under our sink because it makes it tighter for the person who has to work under the sink for repairs (often me).
Sorry if I wasn't clear. The drawer set up doesn't work under a sink but the rolling shelf does. There are clips on both sides and it's easy to remove the shelf if you need access to the plumbing.

The other application is under a overhanging counter (such as a breakfast bar). You can't pull a drawer out efficiently but cabinet doors with rolling shelves are a good set up for large dishes or specialty appliances you don't use regularly. When/if we remodel our cabin's kitchen, I'm going to install an overhang countertop and retrofit the drawers to cabinets with the rolling shelves.

I don't think it's a one or another choice. I think there's different solutions for different storage situations. I'm just grateful that I don't have to perform full squats trying to pull out everything from a lower corner cabinet to pull out the crockpot. It wasn't so bad in my 20s but no fun as we age! :D

User avatar
Sandtrap
Posts: 5323
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:32 pm
Location: Hawaii😀 Northern AZ.😳 Retired.

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by Sandtrap » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:11 pm

stan1 wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:30 am
Sandtrap wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:02 am

7. Cabinetry with rolling shelves and other features to save the "back" is worth a million ice packs.
8. The corners of a range hood or cooktop hood should never ever be below the tallest person in the house. :shock:
7. What is a rolling shelf? It's a flat drawer behind a door. Just get drawers in the first place for most items (pots, pans, baking dishes, plastic containers, many small appliances). In pantries try to do 12-15" deep shelves so you don't end up burying items at the back.
8. Yes, this was a major factor for me having punctured my forehead several times in our old house. Can be done if everyone is under 6' but if there are 6' plus people at least get a hood with widely rounded corners and no sharp edges so its just a bump not a puncture wound.
DW is 4' - 11"
No problem
I'm about 6' but shrinking with age.
My scalp is full of bumps from 6 years of banging my head on the range hood!!! :shock:
I think it'll get better as I shrink with age. :happy

theplayer11
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:55 pm

Re: Kitchen Remodel

Post by theplayer11 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:03 pm

get a hood that is larger than the stove width..will catch more smoke

Post Reply