Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

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pshonore
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by pshonore » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:35 am

I must be lucky - just checked the Owners Manual for my 2014 Ford Expedition. Only recommended fluid changes (outside of engine oil) are for engine Coolant (@ 105,000 miles) and ATF (@ 150,000 miles). I still think for most vehicles in normal use changing brake fluid is a dealer profit center. However I did find in my search a climate control seat filter for heated/cools seats. Didn't know I had one of those

danaht
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by danaht » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:46 am

brake fluid dirty: $169.95
most likely not necessary with only 8,000 miles.

engine air filter dirty: $57 - you can easily do this yourself for about $8 at Autozone or Walmart
a/c cabin filter dirty: $99.99 - you can easily do this yourself for about $8 at Autozone or Walmart
tires rotation: $27.95 - A little cheaper at Sam's Club, or Costco... but seems reasonable for a dealer price.. And you need this done.
alignment - tires wearing on outside $129 - probably not necessary at 8,000 miles
$49.95 oil change - seems reasonable for a "dealer" price

Other than the oil change, and tire rotation - you were really overcharged by quite a bit. Even if you don't want to change the oil yourself - it's super easy to replace the cabin, and engine filters - and at a fraction of the cost.

squirm
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by squirm » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:52 am

charging a hundred bucks to replace a $4 filter makes everything else they recommended suspicious. I would also have them show where the tire tread is wearing uneven for their alignment charges. See if you can even see anything. I only change the brake fluid if it looks dirty or darkens. If it looks fresh compared to new fluid, then it's another waste.

Then again, as some others stated, it's your money and time if you feel you'd like to overpay Honda for simple services, go for it.

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Ged
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by Ged » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:13 am

A lot of posters have expressed skepticism regarding brake fluid changes every 3 years based on personal experience.

The problem is that brake fluid absorbs moisture over time and in extreme braking conditions can lead to boiling in the brake caliper and loss of pressure in the brake system. It is valid safety concern.

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-suppo ... rake-fluid

Hanksmoney
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by Hanksmoney » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:28 am

Rupert wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:48 am
Just fyi: Never -- NEVER -- let a mechanic mechanically flush a Honda transmission or power steering system. Read your owner's manual. It's all in there.
To add to this: Never flush but DO perform the transmission fluid change at the recommended interval. If there is no interval or a long one, I would change it at 100K or sooner if a lot of city driving. I do a 3qt drain and fill every other oil change in my Acura TL which was slipping bad at 80k mi but hasn't had a slip since now at 215k mi. Friction properties are very important in an ATF.
Last edited by Hanksmoney on Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Nowizard
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by Nowizard » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:29 am

Not "hosed" yet but just wait until they recommend replacing hoses and the timing belt! Find an independent mechanic.

Tim

smitcat
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by smitcat » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:31 am

Ged wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:13 am
A lot of posters have expressed skepticism regarding brake fluid changes every 3 years based on personal experience.

The problem is that brake fluid absorbs moisture over time and in extreme braking conditions can lead to boiling in the brake caliper and loss of pressure in the brake system. It is valid safety concern.

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-suppo ... rake-fluid
"The problem is that brake fluid absorbs moisture over time and in extreme braking conditions can lead to boiling in the brake caliper and loss of pressure in the brake system. It is valid safety concern."

This is absolutely true and has been that way forever. Most all use the same type of fluid and the systems are mostly sealed .So why do some vehicle handbooks not require brake fluid flushes at all? Why is it that most vehicles never get a fluid flush and are absolutely fine 20 years later?
Just curious about these things since most folks I speak with have never flushed brake fluid.

Chip
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by Chip » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:54 am

smitcat wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:31 am
This is absolutely true and has been that way forever. Most all use the same type of fluid and the systems are mostly sealed .So why do some vehicle handbooks not require brake fluid flushes at all? Why is it that most vehicles never get a fluid flush and are absolutely fine 20 years later?
Just curious about these things since most folks I speak with have never flushed brake fluid.
I wouldn't say the systems are "sealed" as the master cylinder is exposed to air.

I think brake fluid boiling in the caliper to the point where it affects braking is pretty rare in normal use. Racing would be different.

For me the big issue is corrosion in the brake system, requiring replacement of calipers and the master cylinder. Yes, I have had to change a few. I would bet that few of those who you know that went 20 years without changing fluid also went without changing a caliper or master cylinder in that 20 years. And note that any of those replacements would require bleeding the system, which would be at least a partial replacement of the fluid (full replacement with a responsible mechanic).

ssquared87
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by ssquared87 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:00 am

Delete
Last edited by ssquared87 on Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

neilpilot
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by neilpilot » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:00 am

smitcat wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:31 am

"The problem is that brake fluid absorbs moisture over time and in extreme braking conditions can lead to boiling in the brake caliper and loss of pressure in the brake system. It is valid safety concern."

This is absolutely true and has been that way forever. Most all use the same type of fluid and the systems are mostly sealed .So why do some vehicle handbooks not require brake fluid flushes at all? Why is it that most vehicles never get a fluid flush and are absolutely fine 20 years later?
Just curious about these things since most folks I speak with have never flushed brake fluid.
I'd also speculate that a possible gradual degradation of braking as a result of aged brake fluid may not be obvious, since it can occur over a long amount of time. I know from one personal experience that even though my older vehicle seemed to have totally acceptable braking, after a fluid flush the braking was noticeably improved when no other brake maintenance was done or required.

rgs92
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by rgs92 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:04 am

LOL, that's a lot cheaper than Mercedes used to charge me every year when I brought it in. It seemed like the charged me that when all they did was check things and open and close the hood.

ssquared87
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by ssquared87 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:05 am

runner3081 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:18 am
DarkHelmetII wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:28 am
Work is being done at a Honda dealer.
Because you did this, I can guarantee you are getting "hosed". Find an independent shop.
This is a stupid way of thinking. A lot of times the dealer charges less for oil changes just to get people in the door.

I spent about $40 for oil and filter for my girlfriends accord. The day before I was going to do the oil change myself she got a coupon for $19.95 oil change at Honda.

No independent would take a loss on service, and the materials alone cost almost double what Honda charges for parts and service on an oil change.

I drive BMWs and the dealer usually charges less for oil changes and brake pads and rotors than an independent would. When my car is outside of the service plan I take it to BMW for the oil changes for $79 since parts cost about $65 but I do the brakes myself because I save about $100 for labor per axle

And no, I don’t live in a LCOL area, this is Santa Monica, CA probably one of the most overpriced locations in the country if not the world.

smitcat
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by smitcat » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:08 am

Chip wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:54 am
smitcat wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:31 am
This is absolutely true and has been that way forever. Most all use the same type of fluid and the systems are mostly sealed .So why do some vehicle handbooks not require brake fluid flushes at all? Why is it that most vehicles never get a fluid flush and are absolutely fine 20 years later?
Just curious about these things since most folks I speak with have never flushed brake fluid.
I wouldn't say the systems are "sealed" as the master cylinder is exposed to air.

I think brake fluid boiling in the caliper to the point where it affects braking is pretty rare in normal use. Racing would be different.

For me the big issue is corrosion in the brake system, requiring replacement of calipers and the master cylinder. Yes, I have had to change a few. I would bet that few of those who you know that went 20 years without changing fluid also went without changing a caliper or master cylinder in that 20 years. And note that any of those replacements would require bleeding the system, which would be at least a partial replacement of the fluid (full replacement with a responsible mechanic).
"I wouldn't say the systems are "sealed" as the master cylinder is exposed to air."
I wouldn't say that either - I would say they are mostly sealed.

"For me the big issue is corrosion in the brake system, requiring replacement of calipers and the master cylinder."
That is why I am asking - have a 2002 Honda and a 2006 Honda and neither have had a brake fluid flush nor have they had a caliper problem.
NE environment, out in snow, no garage for these cars.

smitcat
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by smitcat » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:11 am

neilpilot wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:00 am
smitcat wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:31 am

"The problem is that brake fluid absorbs moisture over time and in extreme braking conditions can lead to boiling in the brake caliper and loss of pressure in the brake system. It is valid safety concern."

This is absolutely true and has been that way forever. Most all use the same type of fluid and the systems are mostly sealed .So why do some vehicle handbooks not require brake fluid flushes at all? Why is it that most vehicles never get a fluid flush and are absolutely fine 20 years later?
Just curious about these things since most folks I speak with have never flushed brake fluid.
I'd also speculate that a possible gradual degradation of braking as a result of aged brake fluid may not be obvious, since it can occur over a long amount of time. I know from one personal experience that even though my older vehicle seemed to have totally acceptable braking, after a fluid flush the braking was noticeably improved when no other brake maintenance was done or required.
Brakes work on hydraulic pressure - if there is a slightly less compressible fluid in the system then the pedal will go down a slight bit more and maybe be a fraction of change with the pedal total travel.
How would that affect braking degradation as far as braking distance?

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Ged
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by Ged » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:55 am

smitcat wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:11 am

Brakes work on hydraulic pressure - if there is a slightly less compressible fluid in the system then the pedal will go down a slight bit more and maybe be a fraction of change with the pedal total travel.
How would that affect braking degradation as far as braking distance?
If the more compressible fluid is a gas due to boiling brake fluid you may lose all effective pressure.

People asked about manufacturer recommendations.

Acura: 36 months
Audi: 24 months
BMW: 24 months, or when indicated by Service Inspection Indicator
Honda: 36 months
Jaguar: 24 months all models except 2009 XF (36 months)
Land Rover: 36 months
Lexus: 36 months or 30,000 miles, which ever comes first
Mercedes-Benz: 24 months
MINI 24 months
Saab: 48 months (all models except 9-7X)
Smart: 24 months or 20,000 miles, which ever comes first
Subaru: 30 months or 30,000 miles (normal service) or 15 months/15,000 miles (severe service)
Suzuki: 24 months or 30,000 miles, which ever comes first (Forenza & Reno), 60 months or 60,000 miles (Grand Vitara and SX4)
Volkswagen: 24 months (New Beetle, City Gold, City Jetta), 36 months (all other models except Routan)
Volvo: 24 months or 37,000 miles (Normal), or 12 months (severe service)

Don't know why US manufacturers are conspicuously missing from this list.

Here is an interesting article on the topic that includes discussion of brake fluid boiling point and water contamination:

https://www.aa1car.com/library/bfluid.htm

smitcat
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by smitcat » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:11 am

Ged wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:55 am
smitcat wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:11 am

Brakes work on hydraulic pressure - if there is a slightly less compressible fluid in the system then the pedal will go down a slight bit more and maybe be a fraction of change with the pedal total travel.
How would that affect braking degradation as far as braking distance?
If the more compressible fluid is a gas due to boiling brake fluid you may lose all effective pressure.

People asked about manufacturer recommendations.

Acura: 36 months
Audi: 24 months
BMW: 24 months, or when indicated by Service Inspection Indicator
Honda: 36 months
Jaguar: 24 months all models except 2009 XF (36 months)
Land Rover: 36 months
Lexus: 36 months or 30,000 miles, which ever comes first
Mercedes-Benz: 24 months
MINI 24 months
Saab: 48 months (all models except 9-7X)
Smart: 24 months or 20,000 miles, which ever comes first
Subaru: 30 months or 30,000 miles (normal service) or 15 months/15,000 miles (severe service)
Suzuki: 24 months or 30,000 miles, which ever comes first (Forenza & Reno), 60 months or 60,000 miles (Grand Vitara and SX4)
Volkswagen: 24 months (New Beetle, City Gold, City Jetta), 36 months (all other models except Routan)
Volvo: 24 months or 37,000 miles (Normal), or 12 months (severe service)

Don't know why US manufacturers are conspicuously missing from this list.

Here is an interesting article on the topic that includes discussion of brake fluid boiling point and water contamination:

https://www.aa1car.com/library/bfluid.htm
US dealers recommend 5 years for the most part.
I understand about brake fluid boiling potential with water intrusion - when we ran cars on the track we always were concerned about that and often utilized hydrophobic fluids. We could see the rotors glowing red when running hard laps.

I am just wondering how that has anything to do with my Honda's real life usage and the recommendations - not attempting to be argumentative

Chip
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by Chip » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:44 am

smitcat wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:08 am
That is why I am asking - have a 2002 Honda and a 2006 Honda and neither have had a brake fluid flush nor have they had a caliper problem.
NE environment, out in snow, no garage for these cars.
Maybe you've been lucky or I've been unlucky. I note in the above post about manufacturers recommendations that Toyota is conspicuously missing (but Lexus isn't :shock: ). My '98 Camry developed a seized caliper due to corrosion after 10 years. I had replaced the fluid once, after five years. I didn't catch that the caliper was seized until the pads wore down on the other side and damaged the rotor. On the same car I had to replace a clutch slave cylinder due to corrosion. The fluid used in the clutch system on that car was brake fluid.

These experiences have obviously colored my opinion. So when Honda tells me I need to change every 3 years on my Accord, I'm in.

Turbo29
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by Turbo29 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:00 pm

ssquared87 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:05 am
runner3081 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:18 am
DarkHelmetII wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:28 am
Work is being done at a Honda dealer.
Because you did this, I can guarantee you are getting "hosed". Find an independent shop.
This is a stupid way of thinking. A lot of times the dealer charges less for oil changes just to get people in the door.

I spent about $40 for oil and filter for my girlfriends accord. The day before I was going to do the oil change myself she got a coupon for $19.95 oil change at Honda.

No independent would take a loss on service, and the materials alone cost almost double what Honda charges for parts and service on an oil change.

I drive BMWs and the dealer usually charges less for oil changes and brake pads and rotors than an independent would. When my car is outside of the service plan I take it to BMW for the oil changes for $79 since parts cost about $65 but I do the brakes myself because I save about $100 for labor per axle

And no, I don’t live in a LCOL area, this is Santa Monica, CA probably one of the most overpriced locations in the country if not the world.
When I had my VW TDI (diesel, before they bought it back in the class action settlement) I got a replacement battery at the dealer. Cost less installed and with a better warranty than was available buying the battery from an auto parts store.

smitcat
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by smitcat » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:28 pm

Chip wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:44 am
smitcat wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:08 am
That is why I am asking - have a 2002 Honda and a 2006 Honda and neither have had a brake fluid flush nor have they had a caliper problem.
NE environment, out in snow, no garage for these cars.
Maybe you've been lucky or I've been unlucky. I note in the above post about manufacturers recommendations that Toyota is conspicuously missing (but Lexus isn't :shock: ). My '98 Camry developed a seized caliper due to corrosion after 10 years. I had replaced the fluid once, after five years. I didn't catch that the caliper was seized until the pads wore down on the other side and damaged the rotor. On the same car I had to replace a clutch slave cylinder due to corrosion. The fluid used in the clutch system on that car was brake fluid.

These experiences have obviously colored my opinion. So when Honda tells me I need to change every 3 years on my Accord, I'm in.
Maybe - I don't know that is the source of my curiosity. I just went to look at our 2013 and 2016 Chevy trucks brake fluid and they both look like new at the reservoir. I wont be able to eye up the Honda's until tomorrow.

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Ged
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by Ged » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:30 pm

smitcat wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:11 am

US dealers recommend 5 years for the most part.
I understand about brake fluid boiling potential with water intrusion - when we ran cars on the track we always were concerned about that and often utilized hydrophobic fluids. We could see the rotors glowing red when running hard laps.

I am just wondering how that has anything to do with my Honda's real life usage and the recommendations - not attempting to be argumentative
I did a quick search and came up with this article.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf

It does predict that the combination of old brake fluid and heavy braking can result in brake fluid boiling in passenger cars.

pshonore
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by pshonore » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:37 pm

Ged wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:30 pm
smitcat wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:11 am

US dealers recommend 5 years for the most part.
I understand about brake fluid boiling potential with water intrusion - when we ran cars on the track we always were concerned about that and often utilized hydrophobic fluids. We could see the rotors glowing red when running hard laps.

I am just wondering how that has anything to do with my Honda's real life usage and the recommendations - not attempting to be argumentative
I did a quick search and came up with this article.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf

It does predict that the combination of old brake fluid and heavy braking can result in brake fluid boiling in passenger cars.
Whats "heavy braking"? When does ABS take over? (not sure if that makes things better or worse)

smitcat
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by smitcat » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:44 pm

Ged wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:30 pm
smitcat wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:11 am

US dealers recommend 5 years for the most part.
I understand about brake fluid boiling potential with water intrusion - when we ran cars on the track we always were concerned about that and often utilized hydrophobic fluids. We could see the rotors glowing red when running hard laps.

I am just wondering how that has anything to do with my Honda's real life usage and the recommendations - not attempting to be argumentative
I did a quick search and came up with this article.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf

It does predict that the combination of old brake fluid and heavy braking can result in brake fluid boiling in passenger cars.
yes - that is whet we saw when we ran cars at the track....
"90 brake applications with a total braking period of 30 minutes."
We also did need to use specific tires, brake linings , hoses ,vented rotors and the like when we ran circuit courses.
Not only because it made the cars competitive but because track rules required it.

Longruninvestor
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by Longruninvestor » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:52 pm

SimonJester wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:18 am

My kids Scout Master has worked as several different dealerships and now owns his own shop. From your list this is the only one that is correct
  • Honda profit margin is higher.
My independent mechanic works out of a pole barn in a remote suburb, has no staff to answer the phone and employs a mix of ASE certified and non-certified technicians. I maintain that his fixed and variable costs are significantly lower than a Honda dealership.

chevca
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by chevca » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:01 pm

This brake fluid/brake fade deal being talked about is a non-issue for about all passenger vehicles out there. In normal driving, one is likely to never experience this. Unless you're driving like a police officer on a long code run, you will probably never experience brake fade. Or, driving like that unlawfully if you're not a police officer...

It's surely not a bad thing to change out the brake fluid. But, it's likely not necessary on a normally driven commuter car either.

As mentioned above, there probably is a slight difference in braking as some water gets in there. But, it's slight and gradual. You adjust your braking style in your car without even realizing it. The brakes still work fine in normal driving and you will not just get instant brake fade.

Most all cars I've owned have never had the brake fluid reservoir cap off once. None of them suddenly didn't stop.

runner3081
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by runner3081 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:15 pm

ssquared87 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:05 am
runner3081 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:18 am
DarkHelmetII wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:28 am
Work is being done at a Honda dealer.
Because you did this, I can guarantee you are getting "hosed". Find an independent shop.
This is a stupid way of thinking. A lot of times the dealer charges less for oil changes just to get people in the door.

I spent about $40 for oil and filter for my girlfriends accord. The day before I was going to do the oil change myself she got a coupon for $19.95 oil change at Honda.

No independent would take a loss on service, and the materials alone cost almost double what Honda charges for parts and service on an oil change.

I drive BMWs and the dealer usually charges less for oil changes and brake pads and rotors than an independent would. When my car is outside of the service plan I take it to BMW for the oil changes for $79 since parts cost about $65 but I do the brakes myself because I save about $100 for labor per axle

And no, I don’t live in a LCOL area, this is Santa Monica, CA probably one of the most overpriced locations in the country if not the world.
You just haven't found the right independent shop. Once you find someone who can work on the car of your choice, you are golden. Your apples-to-oranges comparison to what I posted is just that. Sure, of course you will save money doing it yourself. Not sure what that has to do with my post though.

The labor rates at the guy I use are less than half the shop, have saved thousands over the years. His oil changes are within $10 of the dealer as well.

Longruninvestor
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by Longruninvestor » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:21 pm

chevca wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:01 pm
This brake fluid/brake fade deal being talked about is a non-issue for about all passenger vehicles out there. In normal driving, one is likely to never experience this. Unless you're driving like a police officer on a long code run, you will probably never experience brake fade. Or, driving like that unlawfully if you're not a police officer...

It's surely not a bad thing to change out the brake fluid. But, it's likely not necessary on a normally driven commuter car either.

As mentioned above, there probably is a slight difference in braking as some fluid gets in there. But, it's slight and gradual. You adjust your braking style in your car without even realizing it. The brakes still work fine in normal driving and you will not just get instant brake fade.

Most all cars I've owned have never had the brake fluid reservoir cap off once. None of them suddenly didn't stop.
I own three Honda’s and act on faith that Honda engineers are ethical and competent and they recommend only necesssary service. I dutifully swap out brake fluid every three years using a device like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Performance-Tool ... +pump+hand

It takes about 45 minutes and it’s easy to tell when fresh new fluid arrives at the caliper. The old stuff I pull out is a a dark and opaque mess, and when the clear stuff arrives I know it’s time to move to another wheel. Perhaps it’s mental, but I always notice that the brakes feel better immediately afterwards —not as squishy and more responsive. I’ve never had to rebuild or change a caliper. I know that lots of people (maybe the majority of drivers on the road) do not maintain their vehicles per the manufacturer recommendation. I buy new cars exclusively for that reason. I maintain them religiously and only upgrade when I pass a vehicle off to one of my kids headed to college.

chevca
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by chevca » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:25 pm

So, would you pay a dealer to do this? :happy

As I said, it's surely not a bad thing to do it. Just not necessary for typical normally driven vehicles. If you like to do it, have at it.

ssquared87
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by ssquared87 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:40 pm

runner3081 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:15 pm
ssquared87 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:05 am
runner3081 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:18 am
DarkHelmetII wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:28 am
Work is being done at a Honda dealer.
Because you did this, I can guarantee you are getting "hosed". Find an independent shop.
This is a stupid way of thinking. A lot of times the dealer charges less for oil changes just to get people in the door.

I spent about $40 for oil and filter for my girlfriends accord. The day before I was going to do the oil change myself she got a coupon for $19.95 oil change at Honda.

No independent would take a loss on service, and the materials alone cost almost double what Honda charges for parts and service on an oil change.

I drive BMWs and the dealer usually charges less for oil changes and brake pads and rotors than an independent would. When my car is outside of the service plan I take it to BMW for the oil changes for $79 since parts cost about $65 but I do the brakes myself because I save about $100 for labor per axle

And no, I don’t live in a LCOL area, this is Santa Monica, CA probably one of the most overpriced locations in the country if not the world.
You just haven't found the right independent shop. Once you find someone who can work on the car of your choice, you are golden. Your apples-to-oranges comparison to what I posted is just that. Sure, of course you will save money doing it yourself. Not sure what that has to do with my post though.

The labor rates at the guy I use are less than half the shop, have saved thousands over the years. His oil changes are within $10 of the dealer as well.
If the materials alone cost more than what the dealer charges for parts and labor it doesn’t matter what the independent charges for labor since the dealer is basically giving you the labor free in hopes they will find other issues.

Most of the independents in my area charge about $125 plus parts to do front brakes. The OEM pads and wear sensors from BMW are $119. BMW charges $239 for parts and labor and they provide a loaner car. So I save $15 if I went to a dealer over an independent and I don’t need to wait around.

That said I prefer doing my own work so I don’t pay for labor at all. But the dealer is cheaper than any decent independent. Same was the case when I lived in Seattle.

chevca
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by chevca » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:45 pm

Why is it that those that do most of their own work on their cars do the most arguing in these kids of threads? :happy

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whodidntante
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by whodidntante » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:51 pm

For those skeptical, there is a point to changing brake fluid on an aging car. The personal anecdotes about not changing brake fluid and not dying as a result are irrelevant. I agree it probably won't kill you, but I like to do my gambling at a card table.

runner3081
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by runner3081 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:53 pm

ssquared87 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:40 pm
runner3081 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:15 pm
ssquared87 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:05 am
runner3081 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:18 am
DarkHelmetII wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:28 am
Work is being done at a Honda dealer.
Because you did this, I can guarantee you are getting "hosed". Find an independent shop.
This is a stupid way of thinking. A lot of times the dealer charges less for oil changes just to get people in the door.

I spent about $40 for oil and filter for my girlfriends accord. The day before I was going to do the oil change myself she got a coupon for $19.95 oil change at Honda.

No independent would take a loss on service, and the materials alone cost almost double what Honda charges for parts and service on an oil change.

I drive BMWs and the dealer usually charges less for oil changes and brake pads and rotors than an independent would. When my car is outside of the service plan I take it to BMW for the oil changes for $79 since parts cost about $65 but I do the brakes myself because I save about $100 for labor per axle

And no, I don’t live in a LCOL area, this is Santa Monica, CA probably one of the most overpriced locations in the country if not the world.
You just haven't found the right independent shop. Once you find someone who can work on the car of your choice, you are golden. Your apples-to-oranges comparison to what I posted is just that. Sure, of course you will save money doing it yourself. Not sure what that has to do with my post though.

The labor rates at the guy I use are less than half the shop, have saved thousands over the years. His oil changes are within $10 of the dealer as well.
If the materials alone cost more than what the dealer charges for parts and labor it doesn’t matter what the independent charges for labor since the dealer is basically giving you the labor free in hopes they will find other issues.

Most of the independents in my area charge about $125 plus parts to do front brakes. The OEM pads and wear sensors from BMW are $119. BMW charges $239 for parts and labor and they provide a loaner car. So I save $15 if I went to a dealer over an independent and I don’t need to wait around.

That said I prefer doing my own work so I don’t pay for labor at all. But the dealer is cheaper than any decent independent. Same was the case when I lived in Seattle.
On standard things, sure, it is probably close enough for most people. Like you said, brakes, oil changes, etc because the parts are a fixed cost. However, on more substantial repairs you will almost always save money at an independent. On top of that, I trust the skills of the independent much more than the dealer.

I was saving about $150 per axle on brakes (with upgraded pads to reduce brake dust) on my BMW in Seattle.

Here in the Phoenix area, on an Infiniti and Mercedes, it is night and day between dealer and independent. Again, I also trust the independent more than the dealership. However, to each their own. Some people haven't found an independent that offers a good deal or one they can trust.

In other words, your "STUPID" comment is a bit over the top :)

squirm
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by squirm » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:05 pm

I do my own work on our cars, I trust my work and shop around for part prices, in addition, I don't need to make an appt etc. I can be as detailed and thorough as I want or do a quick and dirty job. Having worked at a garage many years ago, sometimes customers cars would be taken out for a joy ride or to get lunch, etc (unbeknownst to them). So doing my own work, I know some duffus isn't out joying riding my our car getting french fry grease all over the wheel.

The only time I took the car in was for a timing belt (which I'd rather not do) and interestingly enough, the local dealer had the best price. Now since none of our cars have timing belts, I won't even have to deal with that.

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ClevrChico
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by ClevrChico » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:15 pm

You're getting hosed. An air filter and brake fluid needing service at 8k miles is hard to believe, unless you drive on country gravel roads daily.

I'm at 60k miles of light urban driving, and I can easily double Honda's air filter schedule, and my brake fluid is still clean. You can verify yourself in about 5 minutes.

Get the oil change, alignment, and cabin air filter changed at an independent. (Or better, diy the filter.)

tibbitts
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by tibbitts » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:35 pm

runner3081 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:15 pm
ssquared87 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:05 am
runner3081 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:18 am
DarkHelmetII wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:28 am
Work is being done at a Honda dealer.
Because you did this, I can guarantee you are getting "hosed". Find an independent shop.
This is a stupid way of thinking. A lot of times the dealer charges less for oil changes just to get people in the door.

I spent about $40 for oil and filter for my girlfriends accord. The day before I was going to do the oil change myself she got a coupon for $19.95 oil change at Honda.

No independent would take a loss on service, and the materials alone cost almost double what Honda charges for parts and service on an oil change.

I drive BMWs and the dealer usually charges less for oil changes and brake pads and rotors than an independent would. When my car is outside of the service plan I take it to BMW for the oil changes for $79 since parts cost about $65 but I do the brakes myself because I save about $100 for labor per axle

And no, I don’t live in a LCOL area, this is Santa Monica, CA probably one of the most overpriced locations in the country if not the world.
You just haven't found the right independent shop. Once you find someone who can work on the car of your choice, you are golden. Your apples-to-oranges comparison to what I posted is just that. Sure, of course you will save money doing it yourself. Not sure what that has to do with my post though.

The labor rates at the guy I use are less than half the shop, have saved thousands over the years. His oil changes are within $10 of the dealer as well.
Finding the equivalent of your mechanic would likey require at least several hundred service visits to different mechanics, making that an expensive and time-consuming search. Then the shop ownership might change requiring another couple of hundred service experiences to find another alternative. Just buying a new car every few years and not servicing at all is looking like a better alternative.

runner3081
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by runner3081 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:25 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:35 pm
runner3081 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:15 pm
ssquared87 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:05 am
runner3081 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:18 am
DarkHelmetII wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:28 am
Work is being done at a Honda dealer.
Because you did this, I can guarantee you are getting "hosed". Find an independent shop.
This is a stupid way of thinking. A lot of times the dealer charges less for oil changes just to get people in the door.

I spent about $40 for oil and filter for my girlfriends accord. The day before I was going to do the oil change myself she got a coupon for $19.95 oil change at Honda.

No independent would take a loss on service, and the materials alone cost almost double what Honda charges for parts and service on an oil change.

I drive BMWs and the dealer usually charges less for oil changes and brake pads and rotors than an independent would. When my car is outside of the service plan I take it to BMW for the oil changes for $79 since parts cost about $65 but I do the brakes myself because I save about $100 for labor per axle

And no, I don’t live in a LCOL area, this is Santa Monica, CA probably one of the most overpriced locations in the country if not the world.
You just haven't found the right independent shop. Once you find someone who can work on the car of your choice, you are golden. Your apples-to-oranges comparison to what I posted is just that. Sure, of course you will save money doing it yourself. Not sure what that has to do with my post though.

The labor rates at the guy I use are less than half the shop, have saved thousands over the years. His oil changes are within $10 of the dealer as well.
Finding the equivalent of your mechanic would likey require at least several hundred service visits to different mechanics, making that an expensive and time-consuming search. Then the shop ownership might change requiring another couple of hundred service experiences to find another alternative. Just buying a new car every few years and not servicing at all is looking like a better alternative.
Not really, the key is to frequent enthusiast forums/FB Groups, etc for whatever car you own.

sschoe2
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by sschoe2 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:55 am

I agree cabin and engine air filters are a rip. I use a K&N cleanable one on the engine which I got for $40 and I buy cabin airfilters off ebay for $10.

Brake fluid I doubt it but I paid $69 at Sears a last year to replace the fluid.

I can't think of anything you really need at 15k miles other than an oil change and I like doing a transmission fluid drain and fill about every 15k miles. It can help prolong the life of the transmission to get debris out and fresh fluid in and since I do it myself it is cheap.

Cody
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Location: Stillwater, Mn

Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by Cody » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:16 am

One of the best ways to save $ is to keep a little notebook in your glove compartment. As your car moves up in age repair and oil places with say that you need a new XXX. You can check the little book, say "nope" did that last year or at a minumum you now have a choice to let them do the work or do it yourself or find a cheaper shop.

My daughter's have found the little book as useful as we have.

Had a Valvoline Oil place tell me I needed a new air filter. I said "how is it priced" and they said we give the same price as a car parts store (like Napa). Charged me $40, I went to Napa - it was $10 there. Hum!!

Good luck!
Cody

inbox788
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by inbox788 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:07 am

Dilbydog wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:04 pm
If your brake fluid is dark, that’s understandable. If it’s actually dirty then I suspect you have another issue. The thought behind changing your brake fluid every two years stems from the fluid absorbing moisture (water) which lowers the fluids boiling point. If the fluid gets hot enough and boils you’ll have soft brakes, or in extreme cases no brakes. This is more prevalent in high humidity environments and on vehicles that see track use or are subject to sustained heavy brake loads. Think towing.

While I tend to get my fluid changed every couple of years, I’ve owned modern vehicles where this maintenance piece wasn’t perforemed for the life of the vehicle. I owned a 3/4 ton diesel pickup that saw a fair amount of heavy towing, and aggressive driving when unloaded. Six years and 130k miles later it was on its original fluid, without issues. I also live in the desert, so no humidity, but plenty of high temps.
I don't understand why on a newer (2015) car with 8000 miles (or 8000 miles a year) brake fluid would turn dark or get dirty, especially at the reservoir. It's not a circulating fluid, so the dark/dirty fluid should only be near the caliper. I've looked into testing, but the costs involved are significant, and decided I might as well apply them to the cost of replacement instead. If there was a concern, not changing the fluid would involve testing for water, contaminants/copper and possibly adding corrosion preventative additives. And even after that, the testing interval may be different than the replacement interval. And that still leaves the question of whether testing the fluid in the reservoir truly gives any indication of the condition near the calipers.

https://www.familyhandyman.com/automoti ... /view-all/

I've often ignored the brake fluid changes, and on the few occasions when I've seen the fluid take out (newer cars), it's all been fairly clean and clear, nowhere as dark as these videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhptueid7Xc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5O_pbC8R2E

After watching these videos, maybe I'll add a change to my next maintenance (DIY, not $170). But if there's no sign of trouble, I don't worry about skipping it.

URSnshn
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by URSnshn » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:42 am

OP - I asked a question similar to yours a while back (brake fluid change on Honda Accord). Did the research too. Upshot - everyone has an opinion including the independent shops and dealers I called.

My decision: Follow the routine maintenance from the manufacturer. In this case they say replace the brake fluid every 3 years.

On the other hand, the other car I have does not have replacing the brake fluid as a requirement - so I'm not doing it for that car. But I will have the brake fluid checked and if it is an issue I'll go ahead and have it replaced.

Regarding the rest of the prices you were quoted from the dealer - seemed high to me. Take a look at what the manufacturer says must be done, find a reputable independent or two and have it re-estimated.

One place to possibly find an independent is to ask your friends and neighbors, check with BBB, and if you are a member of AAA they have list of places they recommend.

PS My independent didn't believe that my Honda' brake fluid needed replacing - in this case I did take my vehicle in to my Honda dealer for only that item. My cost was a little less than your estimate if I recall correctly.

URSnshn
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by URSnshn » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:42 am

OP - I asked a question similar to yours a while back (brake fluid change on Honda Accord). Did the research too. Upshot - everyone has an opinion including the independent shops and dealers I called.

My decision: Follow the routine maintenance from the manufacturer. In this case they say replace the brake fluid every 3 years.

On the other hand, the other car I have does not have replacing the brake fluid as a requirement - so I'm not doing it for that car. But I will have the brake fluid checked and if it is an issue I'll go ahead and have it replaced.

Regarding the rest of the prices you were quoted from the dealer - seemed high to me. Take a look at what the manufacturer says must be done, find a reputable independent or two and have it re-estimated.

One place to possibly find an independent is to ask your friends and neighbors, check with BBB, and if you are a member of AAA they have list of places they recommend.

PS My independent didn't believe that my Honda' brake fluid needed replacing - in this case I did take my vehicle in to my Honda dealer for only that item. My cost was a little less than your estimate if I recall correctly.

sschoe2
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by sschoe2 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:28 am

smitcat wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:31 am

This is absolutely true and has been that way forever. Most all use the same type of fluid and the systems are mostly sealed .
Honda wants you to use Honda brake fluid and tell you only in a pinch use standard DOT3. I think that is nonsense I went with DOT3 and had Sears replace it for $69. Tranny fluid I do myself and do use the Honda DW1 because Honda transmissions can be touchy.

smitcat
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by smitcat » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:39 am

sschoe2 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:28 am
smitcat wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:31 am

This is absolutely true and has been that way forever. Most all use the same type of fluid and the systems are mostly sealed .
Honda wants you to use Honda brake fluid and tell you only in a pinch use standard DOT3. I think that is nonsense I went with DOT3 and had Sears replace it for $69. Tranny fluid I do myself and do use the Honda DW1 because Honda transmissions can be touchy.
Yup - I think I will change the brake fluid next time I rotate the tires. At least on the Honda's where it is recommended and I am way past due.
Fluid looks mostly clean but it wont take that long - as others have said same fluid as in cars that do not require it at all but will do it anyway.
FWIW - all these standard brake fluids have boiling points at about !40 -!50 C so if you plan on 'racing' your Honda the fluid will boil right out of the container (lol).
Anyway - I thought I was past replacing brake fluid in the cars that do not get really 'pushed'.
Trans fluid on the Honda's I do same as you - Honda fluid with a 3 times change without a pressurized system , just gravity change with a short run in between the changes. It has worked well with our two Honda's as well as the two other family Honda's that I tend to work on over the past 12 or so years.

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jabberwockOG
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by jabberwockOG » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:05 am

Regardless of what the car maker's manual says the brake fluid should be changed every 3-4 years at a minimum or sooner if it shows darker than clear very light amber in the reservoir. Given the cost of brake parts, especially items like the ABS and brake master cylinders (which on modern cars can cost several thousand dollars), it is peanuts to change out brake fluid on a periodic basis.

Can you go 10 years or more with same brake fluid? ..sure. Is it smart or a good way to save money on car maintenance...no.

Also be aware that some fly by night unethical shops (said to happen often in "Quik lube" style shops) will actually just drain the plastic MC reservoir (and not fully bleed the system) and then refill just the reservoir but charge you for a full brake flush. This rip-off takes them less than 5 minutes as opposed to an hour to replace fluid in the entire system.

z0r
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by z0r » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:11 am

You can buy an inexpensive water tester for brake fluid. my fluid passed this test easily at 7 years, so I didn't change (as my specific car's service interval also was not up). I continue testing every year and my fluid looks good, passes the test, and brake performance is good (10 years now). I live in an easy climate for cars and my oem brake pads made it to 120k, so it hasn't worked hard either.

TheOscarGuy
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by TheOscarGuy » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:33 am

DarkHelmetII wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:28 am
I am having the below services down on my 2015 Honda Accord purchased new in August 2015. Until now I have only had oil changes done. Any insight on a) likelihood these services are actually needed, and b) reasonableness of costs. I live in Washington, DC area so probably higher than average cost of living. Brought car in for oil charge and said these other things were required. I okayed the work because in past they've not seemed to try and up-sell / cross-sell me on unnecessary services, but still having nagging voice in head may be getting hosed here.

Work is being done at a Honda dealer. About 8,000 miles mostly city. Parked outside.

brake fluid dirty: $169.95
engine air filter dirty: $57
a/c cabin filter dirty: $99.99
tires rotation: $27.95
alignment - tires wearing on outside $129
$49.95 oil change
--> Total $533.84

If they've rooked me too late on this one, but in that case will use as lesson learned for future maintenance.
I bought a Honda a couple of months prior to you did. Mine is SUV (Pilot). I can tell you that some of the things they are telling you are not needed, and others are extremely overpriced.
Cabin filter is listed for $17 on amazon, and can be replaced by a child within 5 mins.
Engine filter is around the same, and can be replaced by you with maybe 10 mins. of work.
I have not done anything with brake fluid, and I would probably just replace it when I do touch it. I wonder if they will bleed it. Based on quotes for filters I would say its likely not needed, and at the very least I would get a second opinion.
Rotation/Alignment may be genuine work. But I would rather do it from a tire-only company, rather than dealership.
Oil change is needed :D

So of all these, I would say go for oil change now. Get second opinion on brake oil. Replace filters yourself -- I am not kidding its literally that easy (just watch youtube videos on how others have done it). Tires/wheels get it done from tire-only company.

z0r
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Re: Honda Accord Maintenance at 3 Years - Am I Getting Hosed?

Post by z0r » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:58 am

alignment at 3 years/ 8k indicates a serious quality problem that should have been handled under warranty. unless suspension parts are worn, broken, or serviced for other reasons they don't just move and need alignment. my car has the factory alignment at 125k and the tires wear evenly and it tracks straight. I don't even rotate as often as I should which means I'd see uneven wear problems worse then most.

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