My daughter got a nose pierce! I am not happy.

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RooseveltG
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My daughter got a nose pierce! I am not happy.

Post by RooseveltG »

My 24 year old, Ivy League graduate daughter who works for a large consulting firm just got a nose pierce (zirconium, left nostril). My wife and I had expressed our opposition over the years and she informed us that now that we had paid for her education and she did not have to worry about the financial ramifications, she was going ahead with the pierce.

Our objections are varied and they include health risks, employment risk and socioeconomic risk (will she bring someone home from a different socioeconomic class). We also wonder about the rest of her secret life since she lives in another city.

Are we over reacting or are these legitimate concerns?

Roosevelt.
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jeff mc
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Post by jeff mc »

i'd vote for 'overreacting'.

and since you're obviously looking for advice by posting this, i'll also offer this: it's time to let go. yes, you'll always be her parents, but the relationship has now shifted to be more 'peer to peer'. solicited advice would probably be welcomed by her. unsolicited advice is probably not. let her go her own way. sounds to me like she's doing great. stop being overbearing or you risk losing (or damaging) your daughter-parent relationship.
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Post by chaz »

I'm not sure you are overreacting. You might go visit her to "check on the health of her zirconium infested nostril".
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SoonerSunDevil
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Post by SoonerSunDevil »

As someone who is in your daughter's demographic, I must concur with your thoughts regarding her socioeconomic risk. I view nostril piercings as trashy and I'm completely turned-off by nostril, lip, eye-brow, etc. piercings. The good news is that the piercing isn't permanent and that she didn't get a tattoo on her lower back (she doesn't have a tattoo, does she?!?!)

As far as her secret life, I don't think you need to worry about her doing drugs or sleeping around. If she's that type of girl, she'll do that with or without a nostril piercing.

I'd say you should relax :)
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greg24
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Post by greg24 »

She is 24. Let her live her life.
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modal
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Post by modal »

I don't believe women should be pierced outside of their ear lobes. And, even with those it should just be a hole in each ear. For guys, I think they should be pierce-less.

My BIL has a professional job and wears an earring, but it's bad taste to me.

By the way, your daughter might have got other (out of view) things pierced.
Tramper Al
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Post by Tramper Al »

She's 24, she has that Ivy League education as you likely wanted for her. It's her life now.

Does she only have the impression that you use financial extortion to exert influence over her personal choices, or is that actually the truth?

And I was following your concerns until you clarified the "risk" that she might bring home someone from a different SES? Oh, my.
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modal
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Post by modal »

Does her nose stud show off what university she attended? :lol:
tj-longterm
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Post by tj-longterm »

Tramper Al wrote:And I was following your concerns until you clarified the "risk" that she might bring home someone from a different SES? Oh, my.
I agree and cannot personally comprehend that perspective.

With respect, perhaps her behavior is an expression of independence from you -- it is natural and good for children to want to become independent from their parents.
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Post by Avo »

You're lucky your daughter talks to you at all. I would never put up with such overbearing nonsense from my parents, no matter how much money they spent on me. Luckily for me, my parents (who both died this year) weren't like that.

And I consider myself very fortunate to work in a field (academic science) where people's competence is not evaluated by their choice in clothing and related decoration.
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Post by sewall »

While I think you're overreacting and generally agree with previous posters, I also think her rationale is bogus. She thinks your financial relationship with her is over at age 24?!? BS. I'm sure you and she will be discussing financial matters for decades, as you should be.

Were it my daughter I'd tell her I love her, that she should live her life, that I am always available to talk about anything, and that our relationship, financial or otherwise, is not contingent on how she chooses to accessorize her body. Then I'd give her a slug of money to put into her Roth IRA.
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zzcooper123
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Piercing

Post by zzcooper123 »

I have threatened to remove any piercings from my children "without benefit of anesthesia". Seems to be working so far.
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Post by SteveB3005 »

Get on with your life, there has to more pressing matters at hand.
chaz
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Re: Piercing

Post by chaz »

zzcooper123 wrote:I have threatened to remove any piercings from my children "without benefit of anesthesia". Seems to be working so far.
Tough love works. But not at age 24, and independent.
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Post by marie17 »

I have threatened to remove any piercings from my children "without benefit of anesthesia". Seems to be working so far
How old are your kids? I would hope that if they are 24 they would go tell you to pound sand.

I'm actually having issues with my parents right now and I am 33 - who are demanding expensive anniversary gifts and stating they deserve it because they paid (half) to send me to college.

I'm telling them to go pound sand too.

If she's financially independent from you and doesn't live under your roof - let her do what she wants. You really do risk your relationship. Do you want to do that over a piercing?

Piercings (and tattoos), although they used to be statements of subversion, are very mainstream now.
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Post by Stevewc »

Tattoos and piecing is so common now, I don't think I would be to concerned. Accept for health reasons of course. I would think as far as employment it can be removed for interview and that kind of thing. A lot of this stuff is showing some rebellion and goes away with age and maturity, as I'm sure you know. I actually allow my son to do a certain amount of wild junk so he'll get it out of his system before adult responsibilities kick in (He'd 19). I did dumb junk and I suppose we all do,
Steve
Last edited by Stevewc on Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: My daughter got a nose pierce! I am not happy.

Post by nisiprius »

My $0.02: I think you're probably overreacting.

And speak as someone who finds ear piercings disturbing and thinks of nose piercings, tattoos, etc. as something that savages do. But that's strictly because of my age. Things have changed.
RooseveltG wrote:Our objections...include health risks
Would you be upset if she said she had taken up equestrian sports (which I believe, although I might be wrong, can be very dangerous; think Cole Porter or Christopher Reeve). Do you seriously think the health risks are worse than those of smoking, drinking, skiing, or playing high school sports?
We also wonder about the rest of her secret life since she lives in another city.
Think back carefully to your own childhood. I don't know about yours, but starting at about age 9 or 10 my parents did not know everything I was doing, not by a long shot. I wasn't really doing anything terrible: the point is, they didn't know.

In my case, being a nerdy type, it wasn't sex or drugs. It was that I enjoyed going with a friend to watch him set off his homemade explosives. (Yes, really, it wasn't me). Do you think his parents knew about the five-gallon carboys of nitric and sulfuric acid stashed in the crawl space of his house?

Every parent worries about their kids' "secret lives" but there's not much you can do about it. At some point your kids are just separate people from you, living their own lives and making their own choices.
employment risk
I don't know a darn thing about nose rings. Don't they come out?
socioeconomic risk (will she bring someone home from a different socioeconomic class?
What risk? The risk of your personal social discomfort? If the person she brings home turns out to be Mr. Right you'll get used to him in a few years. If the person she brings home is Mr. Wrong it won't matter what socioeconomic class he's in. And while I don't buy the idea of America as a classless meritocracy, there's a lot of social and economic mobility; the socioeconomic class a person is from is not a good predictor of future success. The guy from Harvard has an edge on the guy from State U, but the guy from State U could easily turn out to be Jack Welch.
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Post by grumel »

Let her do what she wants. Thats generally true at that age. But with that Background its even more true. Yes, that piercing has probably negative career effects, but on such a high level thats hardly a problem. Why not trade the next thousand Dollars she doesnt know how to spend anyway for some individuality?
Last edited by grumel on Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Bounca
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Post by Bounca »

I'd approach it from her career/employment situation.

Her nasil decoration is an excellent career move if she works for a graphic arts consulting firm that scores art and design contracts with Lollapalooza, Ozzfest, etc. type music fests.

If her consulting firm employer does other ventures, then she is a fool. In your shoes, I would bluntly tell her that.

BTW, some ink is not that far away.
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Post by leonard »

rooseveltg wrote:employment risk
It would be odd for a large consulting firm to accept piercings and visible tattoos. If so, she will quickly learn a lesson through slow promotions, poor assignments because the firm does not want her in a customer facing role or being managed out of the company.

If it is software consulting or the firm's culture and customers are accepting of such body mods, she may be just fine.

Either way, she is learning to navigate in the working world. Lessons that have to be learned first hand.
socioeconomic risk (will she bring someone home from a different socioeconomic class)
Is this intended to be as condescending as it sounds? Walk through a software development firm. Based on that sampling, you might come to the conclusion that you need piercings and tattoos to make over $100k per year.
We also wonder about the rest of her secret life since she lives in another city.
Take your worst case scenario about what her secret life is and then double it. It is likely worse from your perspective, than even you think it is. We all have a tendency to manage our parents expectations of us. Perhaps to not disappoint. Or, maybe so as not to have the headache of judgment every time they talk or visit. Either way, we all have private lives. That's why they are private.

Personally, if I had parents that critiqued my decisions or gave me headaches about my choices every time I talked to them, I would tell them the bare minimum about my life to avoid the hassles.

Oh, and make sure she doesn't start listening to that Rock and Roll music.
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Worry

Post by gatorking »

From Wikipedia:
Nostril piercing is a body piercing practice often associated with India. In Northern India the outside of the left and in Southern India the outside of the right nostril is the preferred position of the piercing as this is supposed to make childbirth easier.

I think you need to worry. :lol:
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Re: My daughter got a nose pierce! I am not happy.

Post by gunn_show »

RooseveltG wrote: Our objections are varied and they include health risks, employment risk and socioeconomic risk
I think the "go pound sand" mantra that has been mentioned a few times sounds about right.

She graduated from an Ivy school? I take it she is smart enough to manage herself and run her own life. She works for a large consulting firm? Obviously she did her homework and got a stellar job, and knows the result of getting the nose ring within her workplace. Obviously it is not an issue there or she would not have gotten it. If it is an issue with her superiors or team, I am sure it will be removed quickly.

Health risks? Come on, that is a weak excuse. Millions of men women and children get pierced every year. Risk is minimal. Would you sh*t yourself if she showed you a huge butterfly tattoo next week? I wouldn't be surprised if she already has one you don't know about. Who cares.

Socioeconomic risk? Are you serious? Did you type your post from your mansion or the Bentley? Or did you dictate it to a butler?

When my little brother got his first tattoo my strict parents wigged out, dad went nuts, all that jazz. Now that lil bro has multiple tattoos, and I have one, and it is roughly 8+ years later, dad has mentioned wanting to get one himself. And he just clocked 64 yo and is retired.

Eventually kids grow up and become adults and can do whatever they want. Eventually the parents must understand this and grow up themselves.
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Post by yobria »

And she's only 24? I made my kids wait until 40 before I let them get piercings! When they turned 50 I let them start dating and borrow the car...

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Post by gunn_show »

leonard wrote: Is this intended to be as condescending as it sounds? Walk through a software development firm. Based on that sampling, you might come to the conclusion that you need piercings and tattoos to make over $100k per year.
I work in a software firm, and agree - tattoos, piercings, shorts, t-shirts, sandals, motorcycles, you name it - are all required to be successful and happy here. I think I even hear some of that "rock n roll" music, possibly even that rap music, being played in the offices ... oh heavens!!!!
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Post by sscritic »

While I think you are overreacting, you might want to suggest to her that there are still financial ramifications to her behavior. Tell her you aren't planning to die broke since you read bogleheads.org every day.
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Re: My daughter got a nose pierce! I am not happy.

Post by curly lambeau »

RooseveltG wrote:socioeconomic risk (will she bring someone home from a different socioeconomic class).
10/10 for both honesty and creepiness.
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Post by PaPaw »

In my humble opinion, the ONLY person one has a right to try to "fix" is one's self (I'm speaking about adults, not children). As others have said, if you value your present and future relationship with your daughter, you had best learn to deal silently with your reaction to her piercing. You always have the choice of how to react to someone who does not share your values ... it's just that those reactions have consequences that you may not like.

Best wishes for your ongoing relationship with your daughter and may it improve everyday.

P.S. This reminded me of an event that happened with my son and my dad when my son was about 19 or 20. My son came home from college one time with an ear ring. We went to visit my dad who had not seen us for several months. We were there for a couple of hours (my dad had not said a word about the ear ring) and got ready to leave. After my son had his coat on and was getting ready to shake hands with my dad, my dad grabbed my son by the shoulders and kissed him square on the mouth (extremely uncharacteristic of my dad to do that!) and told my son if he were going to look like a girl, he would treat him like one. My son later got rid of the ear ring, guess my dad made his point.
Last edited by PaPaw on Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by rob »

Yes :D
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Post by mews »

If this is the worst thing currently happening in your life, you are having a damn good year!!


ta,
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zzcooper123
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Remove without benefit

Post by zzcooper123 »

My children are 14 and 16. Above age 18, I don't care what tattoos or piercings they get. Below age 18, they're mine.
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Oh, boy!

Post by gailcox »

I've been where you are....it was our middle daughter. She also got a nose piercing---the kind with the tiny little stud that actually screws into the crease of the nose. (not the kind that uses a hoop earring) It was her first year of college, even tho her father and I had always said, "no tatoo's or piercing's until you are off our payroll". She jumped the gun. It kept coming unscrewed, she got tired of the re-visits to the piercing place where she got it done, and then it lost its novelty. She also got passed up on a part-time job that didn't allow piercings and tatoos. (at least visable ones) She eventually abandoned the piercing, after about 6 months. When I saw it I said "I think you've made a mistake and I don't like it". Since then, I realized it really wasn't such a big deal, but I guess I can say that since she has given it up.

This same daughter also ended up self piercing her naval when she was 14, about the time when Brittany Spear's came on the scene. I only found out about it when a school friend told her dad what my daughter had done and was worried, because my daughter's naval was infected with green stuff oozing out. I retrieved my daughter from school after I became aware of this, drove her to the pediatrician and she got a tetnus shot. You should have heard my daughter crying and carrying on! She regrets her decision to this day about doing that one. She says her naval just doesn't look the same when she wears her bikini.

And btw, this same daughter will graduate with Honors from TCU in May and is a wonderful, creative, self sufficient young lady that we are very proud of! You will get thru this!

gail
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Post by zhiwiller »

I'm going to assume that we are reading you wrong and that you don't really care about your daughter's socioeconomic ties more than you care about her finding someone she loves.

I'm also going to assume we are reading you wrong that you trust your daughter so little to think your daughter has a secret life because she got something she always wanted but you never let her have.

She knows what you think is best for her because you've told her (likely a lot, right?). That's all you can really do. She's the one who gets to make the decisions about her life, even when she makes the wrong ones. Otherwise, when you are gone, she won't be able to make any decisions at all.
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Post by gkaplan »

Personally; tattoos and piercings turn me off. It's her life, however, not yours.
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Post by jh »

...
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Re: My daughter got a nose pierce! I am not happy.

Post by Pres »

RooseveltG wrote:My 24 year old, Ivy League graduate daughter who works for a large consulting firm just got a nose pierce (...) Our objections are varied and they include health risks, employment risk and socioeconomic risk
I'd ask her if any of her superiors had visible piercings. (to help her assess the employment risk)
RooseveltG wrote:(will she bring someone home from a different socioeconomic class)
I understand that you want her to have the best possible future etc. But please be careful with this. She isn't a business you're investing in, she's a human being with feelings. I know firsthand how much grief can be caused by parents disapproving of the partner their kid chooses. The damage can never be undone.
RooseveltG wrote:Are we over reacting or are these legitimate concerns?
Probably overreacting, but I would too. Fashion statements that last a lifetime don't seem a very good idea to me.
But it could have been worse, she could have gotten a "tramp stamp" on her lower back. Drop something and watch her lower back when she picks it up, to make sure she hasn't already... :wink:
Last edited by Pres on Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: My daughter got a nose pierce! I am not happy.

Post by Sunflower »

RooseveltG wrote:My 24 year old, Ivy League graduate daughter who works for a large consulting firm just got a nose pierce (zirconium, left nostril). My wife and I had expressed our opposition over the years and she informed us that now that we had paid for her education and she did not have to worry about the financial ramifications, she was going ahead with the pierce.

Our objections are varied and they include health risks, employment risk and socioeconomic risk (will she bring someone home from a different socioeconomic class). We also wonder about the rest of her secret life since she lives in another city.

Are we over reacting or are these legitimate concerns?
Is this a troll? Seriously, the only thing I would do is POLITELY suggest the stud/ring be removed when going for an employment interview (and meeting unknown clients) and be conservative when she's initially hired (or remain conservative if it is a conservative workplace). Of course if she has an "artistic" career ... she'll fit right in as she is.
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Post by tom0153 »

Oh, all this stuff is way too mainstream for me.

My own daughter got her first tattoo when she turned 18. Then, when she turned 22, it was a tongue piercing. Oh, I was really ticked then.

So, then I find out, she is in the middle of another, more elaborate tattoo on her back and I could not understand, my wife was so ill, why would she do that?

Well, I had cut myself off from communication, in fact.

The first tattoo was a bar of music, she is a music therapist now.

The tongue stud comes and goes, changes colors, is one of those goofy things that can reverse.

And, the tattoo on her back, well, it was of forget me nots, and no doubt, one day, she'll finish it off, but right now, she understands, it just can't be part of the way I am able to remember my wife, so, we find other ways to do it.

Sometimes, I feel like such a jerk.

What a good kid. I practice focusing on just how good she is.

Now, that doesn't mean I have to like her boyfriend, just respect her choice :wink:

Best,
Best, Tom
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Post by expat »

It is a legitimate concern but if you show anger you may be giving her the reaction she is hoping for.

The best thing you can do is ignore it. When she sees there is no payoff, she might give it up.
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Post by taxman »

In your shoes I do not know what I'd do having no kids and not thinking its going to happen @ 50s and single. BUT MARK MY WORDS...........make sure she knows your perspective. She'll be back financially BELIEVE ME. You can just bet on it! I would and Im not a betting man. Then you can ___say, So your sorry you pierced your nose.---turn a blind eye and walk away---for a few days---just for effect of course! :twisted: She should be kissing your hineie for that education! :twisted:
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Post by gunn_show »

taxman wrote:In your shoes I do not know what I'd do having no kids and not thinking its going to happen @ 50s and single. BUT MARK MY WORDS...........make sure she knows your perspective. She'll be back financially BELIEVE ME. You can just bet on it! I would and Im not a betting man. Then you can ___say, So your sorry you pierced your nose.---turn a blind eye and walk away---for a few days---just for effect of course! :twisted: She should be kissing your hineie for that education! :twisted:
taxman, tell us how you are so smart, especially having no kids to draw your own conclusions from?

The daughter is 24, graduated Ivy League, and has a top consulting gig. I highly doubt she will be running back to mom and dad for money anytime soon. Geezus she got a nose ring people... she didn't quit her job and move to Tibet to protest freedom and live like a monk

Come to San Diego where there are scores of hot, smart, well employed women with full or half sleeve tattoos... just a way of life
Last edited by gunn_show on Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by financialguy »

I have to agree with SoonerSunDevil here. There are just too many classy women out there who do NOT have weird piercings and tattoos.

Of course, there's not much you can do about it, except pray she gets through her mid twenties without meeting some complete loser who makes her pregnant.
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Me too

Post by ol_pops »

My daughter graduated from Notre Dame with a degree in Mech. Eng. and is currently employed in the defense industry. She got her tongue pierced and we were not happy. BUT! Common sense prevailed. She doesn't have to wear it all the time and these things heal up if not used. So long term - it's not an issue. At least it was not a tattoo!
BTW: has anybody got a copy of that old SNL (I think) video of Dr. Bob's tattoo remover stick? Very funny. If you find it, you might send it to her.
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Post by leonard »

tommy_gunn wrote:I think I even hear some of that "rock n roll" music...
You mean they actually play Elvis or those Beatles in the workplace? Outrageous.
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Re: My daughter got a nose pierce! I am not happy.

Post by tdhg566 »

RooseveltG wrote:My 24 year old, Ivy League graduate daughter who works for a large consulting firm just got a nose pierce (zirconium, left nostril)...
As the parent of a 28yo daughter who figured out how to become a tax lawyer in Manhattan with a well known firm, but who got an eyebrow piercing in Amsterdam after telling us she wouldn't :wink:, I'm not going to suggest anything. I'm not qualified because we only got this far by the grace of God. But we did recognize a couple of things some years ago. We realized (wife's words) that at some point you have to just get behind a kid (or young adult) and help push, even if you don't agree with their decision or direction. And we realized that despite wishing to the contrary, we were/are out of touch with the younger generation. So social customs, dress codes, etc. that might offend us may not be viewed the same way by our daughter's friends. And if they are, then the feedback from her generation will have a bigger impact than anything we say.

So as far as both kids (32 & 28yo) are concerned, I'm first and foremost here to help.
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Post by SoonerSunDevil »

tommy_gunn wrote:Come to San Diego where there are scores of hot, smart, well employed women with full or half sleeve tattoos... just a way of life
And that is the reason I will never live in California. If there was no such thing as law or finance, I would go into plastic surgery and specialize in tattoo removal.

I remember my Dad talking to me when I was about 12 or 13 regarding tattoos. I told him I thought tattoos were cool and couldn't wait to get one. He asked me if I remembered how much I used to love the T.V. show "The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles." I remember telling him I thought that was the coolest show ever. He said something along the lines of "How cool would it have been when you were 5 or 6 to have one of the ninja turtles on your arm?" Of course I thought that would have been the greatest thing ever when I was 5 or 6, but I quickly saw what he was getting at. He then said something like "Imagine having that same ninja turtle on your arm now." Even at 12 or 13 I got the hint.
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jkcarlson
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:34 pm
Location: Rip City

Re: My daughter got a nose pierce! I am not happy.

Post by jkcarlson »

RooseveltG wrote: Our objections are varied and they include health risks, employment risk and socioeconomic risk (will she bring someone home from a different socioeconomic class).
This is the most disturbing part of your post. I can understand health risk and employment risk (although I agree that nose piercings are pretty mainstream), but socioeconomic risk? Maybe she got the piercing to see how far from the roost she could fly? :?
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danwalk
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:03 pm
Location: The West Coast

Re: My daughter got a nose pierce! I am not happy.

Post by danwalk »

RooseveltG wrote:
Our objections are varied and they include [...] socioeconomic risk (will she bring someone home from a different socioeconomic class).

Are we over reacting or are these legitimate concerns?
Legitimate? Doubtful. Superficial? Absolutely.

How dare she become involved with one of those lower class cretins who probably has a much better grasp of what is important in life than you do. What ever would friends at the country club say? :shock:

By the way, I was able to earn an Ivy League degree because of the wonderful financial aid package I was given, the loans I am still paying off, and the sacrifice of my parents. I surely grew up in one of those "different socioeconomic classes" to which you refer. But don't worry, I don't want to be your friend either.
Image | "Time is your friend; impulse is your enemy."—Jack Bogle
likegarden
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Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:33 pm

Post by likegarden »

I am retired, but have learned that it takes a long time for a young person to become independent. They will still be able to seriously affect the financials of the retirement of the parents.

A 24 year old college graduate is not independent from her parents. She can not even imagine all the pitfalls available to her. She only knows what she knows, what she has experienced so far while in school. Also 33 year olds only know what they know, etc., ditto.

I thought that piercings demonstrate insecurities which a professional of 24 should have grown out. Any professional in engineering, marketing and finance I have seen in my life never had any face piercings, not on the ears either. Did you ever see a bank person or doctor with a nose piercing? Imagine your dentist fixing your teeth having a ring in his nose, hilarious. She might be in some liberal arts type job though where such piercing would not hinder her continuous employment or advancement.

Anyway, it would be a real good idea to continue to convers with her, visit her, make sure that she has none of those bad experiences which are daily in newspapers. Parents might be required to pay for her and a child's expenses including medical insurance, do continuous babysitting and driving a kid around for years, I have experience in that.

Very good luck!
Bernd
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Met Income
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Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:00 pm

Post by Met Income »

Bernd wrote:I am retired, but have learned that it takes a long time for a young person to become independent. They will still be able to seriously affect the financials of the retirement of the parents.

A 24 year old college graduate is not independent from her parents. She can not even imagine all the pitfalls available to her.
She lives on her own in a different city. She's independent.
She only knows what she knows, what she has experienced so far while in school. Also 33 year olds only know what they know, etc., ditto.
Inexperienced? Maybe. Ignorant? Maybe, but maybe not. Dependent? Doesn't sound like it.

I thought that piercings demonstrate insecurities which a professional of 24 should have grown out. Any professional in engineering, marketing and finance I have seen in my life never had any face piercings, not on the ears either. Did you ever see a bank person or doctor with a nose piercing? Imagine your dentist fixing your teeth having a ring in his nose, hilarious. She might be in some liberal arts type job though where such piercing would not hinder her continuous employment or advancement.

Anyway, it would be a real good idea to continue to convers with her, visit her, make sure that she has none of those bad experiences which are daily in newspapers. Parents might be required to pay for her and a child's expenses including medical insurance, do continuous babysitting and driving a kid around for years, I have experience in that.

Very good luck!
Bernd
Professionals don't wear piercings because they don't want to, but rather, because the clients don't want them to. It's not always a value judgment, it's a rational business choice.
TheBigRagu
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Post by TheBigRagu »

I'm not buying into either men wearing earrings, or women having them anywhere except earlobes. Our culture is taking a turn for the worse. Less civilized in many respects. My opinion. And before someone says "overreacting", that can be mighty relative.
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