New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

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HEDGEFUNDIE
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New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Thu May 17, 2018 9:13 pm

Bay Area Bogleheads in the market for a new EV, I just got an insane deal on the new 2018 Nissan Leaf.

2018 Nissan Leaf SV w/ Tech Package (midrange model)

36,000 MSRP
- 3,000 PG&E discount
- 2,500 Vehicle Purchase Program (technically not allowed to stack with PG&E discount but I drove a hard bargain)
- 2,500 CA state credit
- 7,500 Federal tax credit
= 20,500 Price + destination + taxes

They threw in a 0% APR loan for 72 months. And two years of free charging at public charging stations.

This is essentially getting a free car to drive for 12-18 months (until it depreciates to the $20k price).

inbox788
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by inbox788 » Thu May 17, 2018 9:51 pm

Looks like a good price on a new vehicle. There are many off-lease 3+ year old Leafs going for $5-10k that I've considered buying as a local 2nd car as my first electric vehicle, but just don't drive enough for it to make sense. I might need one if a couple of years, and hopefully these used ones make sense as long term low mileage weekend vehicles. Not having to worry about oil changes is a plus, but the battery pack is troublesome and expensive if it goes out. An affordable and easy replacement of a failed cell would make owning a used Leaf long term more appealing. How long do you usually hang on to cars, and how long do you expect to keep the new Leaf?

WhyNotUs
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by WhyNotUs » Thu May 17, 2018 10:32 pm

53,000 miles on my Leaf and still have not lost a bar.
I bought one of the very early Priuses and the ICE boosters all said that would be a battery nightmare. Sold it with 150k and no issues.
I own the next hot stock- VTSAX

harrychan
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by harrychan » Thu May 17, 2018 10:34 pm

I looked deep into the Leaf's depreciation and it depreciates 50% by year 2 and 55% by year 3. Go figure...
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.

HEDGEFUNDIE
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Thu May 17, 2018 10:44 pm

inbox788 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 9:51 pm
Looks like a good price on a new vehicle. There are many off-lease 3+ year old Leafs going for $5-10k that I've considered buying as a local 2nd car as my first electric vehicle, but just don't drive enough for it to make sense. I might need one if a couple of years, and hopefully these used ones make sense as long term low mileage weekend vehicles. Not having to worry about oil changes is a plus, but the battery pack is troublesome and expensive if it goes out. An affordable and easy replacement of a failed cell would make owning a used Leaf long term more appealing. How long do you usually hang on to cars, and how long do you expect to keep the new Leaf?
Access to HOV lane was primary reason for the purchase. Not sure how long I'll keep it, will evaluate latest state of battery tech in 18 months, if credits and incentives still hold up I might just trade it in (hopefully at no loss).

Battery warranty on the 2018 models are 8 years / 100k miles. Definitely won't keep it for that long.

TravelGeek
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by TravelGeek » Thu May 17, 2018 11:36 pm

Congrats, fellow 2018 LEAFer. :sharebeer

I just charged our SL for the first time today. First EV, so I am still learning...

Did you get the EZ-Charge card for the free charging activated on their website? When I tried it a few days ago, the site didn't seem to work properly. Haven't had time to call them. Note that not all charging stations that are part of the EZ-Charge network participate in the free charging program, from what I have read.

Looks like you got the same loan via Nissan Finance. I was going to pay cash; thought I would never have another loan in my life, but 0% for 72 months ain't bad now that even CDs pay at least a bit.

inbox788
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by inbox788 » Thu May 17, 2018 11:42 pm

WhyNotUs wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 10:32 pm
53,000 miles on my Leaf and still have not lost a bar.
I bought one of the very early Priuses and the ICE boosters all said that would be a battery nightmare. Sold it with 150k and no issues.
It's early adopter stories like these that scare me. Hopefully, the technology is maturing. Priuses/prii do have a good reputation for reliability, and there are some hackers on youtube replacing single cells/modules. If that was readily available and affordable for the leaf, I'd pick one up for $5k right now. Besides an $8k battery pack, what else can go wrong with an electric car that's going to cost an arm and a leg?

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... les/page-2

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tonybradle ... f03c013ee9

mouses
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by mouses » Fri May 18, 2018 12:51 am

inbox788 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 11:42 pm
WhyNotUs wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 10:32 pm
53,000 miles on my Leaf and still have not lost a bar.
I bought one of the very early Priuses and the ICE boosters all said that would be a battery nightmare. Sold it with 150k and no issues.
It's early adopter stories like these that scare me. Hopefully, the technology is maturing. Priuses/prii do have a good reputation for reliability, and there are some hackers on youtube replacing single cells/modules. If that was readily available and affordable for the leaf, I'd pick one up for $5k right now. Besides an $8k battery pack, what else can go wrong with an electric car that's going to cost an arm and a leg?

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... les/page-2

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tonybradle ... f03c013ee9
Forbes link: Over 100,000 miles and 8-9 years and a battery replacement that costs not $8K but $3K. That doesn't scare me.

I couldn't get to the greencar link as I got a security warning.

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baconavocado
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by baconavocado » Fri May 18, 2018 1:27 am

Wow, nice car and great deal. Thanks for posting this.

mouses
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by mouses » Fri May 18, 2018 1:31 am

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 9:13 pm
Bay Area Bogleheads in the market for a new EV, I just got an insane deal on the new 2018 Nissan Leaf.

2018 Nissan Leaf SV w/ Tech Package (midrange model)

36,000 MSRP
- 3,000 PG&E discount
- 2,500 Vehicle Purchase Program (technically not allowed to stack with PG&E discount but I drove a hard bargain)
- 2,500 CA state credit
- 7,500 Federal tax credit
= 20,500 Price + destination + taxes
Ah, tax credits. So, those two items, not worth much if one is retired and owes little in taxes.

inbox788
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by inbox788 » Fri May 18, 2018 3:37 am

mouses wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 12:51 am
inbox788 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 11:42 pm
WhyNotUs wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 10:32 pm
53,000 miles on my Leaf and still have not lost a bar.
I bought one of the very early Priuses and the ICE boosters all said that would be a battery nightmare. Sold it with 150k and no issues.
It's early adopter stories like these that scare me. Hopefully, the technology is maturing. Priuses/prii do have a good reputation for reliability, and there are some hackers on youtube replacing single cells/modules. If that was readily available and affordable for the leaf, I'd pick one up for $5k right now. Besides an $8k battery pack, what else can go wrong with an electric car that's going to cost an arm and a leg?

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... les/page-2

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tonybradle ... f03c013ee9
Forbes link: Over 100,000 miles and 8-9 years and a battery replacement that costs not $8K but $3K. That doesn't scare me.

I couldn't get to the greencar link as I got a security warning.
Sorry about confusion. The $8k referred to the Leaf in the greencarreports article. The $5k also refers to the leaf, not the Prius, which go for a bit more for newer iterations. You might get a gen 1 for under $5k, but that's a bit old for me to risk. Want something with at least 3-5 years low trouble expected life left. And the Prius adds back the ICE maintenance plus battery risk (though manageable/tolerable vs. Leaf).
When we bought the car, Nissan's official statement was that the battery should be at 70 to 80 percent of capacity at 100,000 miles, and it was backed by an 8-year/100,000-mile warranty.

Today, Nissan Leaf Customer Support tells us that our battery condition is normal and to be expected, and that the car is not worth enough to spend more than $8,000 on a new battery.

Our local dealer claims to know nothing about the $6,500 price for a new pack announced almost three years ago, and Customer Support could not help on this either.

bberris
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by bberris » Fri May 18, 2018 5:51 am

harrychan wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 10:34 pm
I looked deep into the Leaf's depreciation and it depreciates 50% by year 2 and 55% by year 3. Go figure...
I figure it's due to having no subsidy as a used car.

HEDGEFUNDIE
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Fri May 18, 2018 4:27 pm

mouses wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:31 am
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 9:13 pm
Bay Area Bogleheads in the market for a new EV, I just got an insane deal on the new 2018 Nissan Leaf.

2018 Nissan Leaf SV w/ Tech Package (midrange model)

36,000 MSRP
- 3,000 PG&E discount
- 2,500 Vehicle Purchase Program (technically not allowed to stack with PG&E discount but I drove a hard bargain)
- 2,500 CA state credit
- 7,500 Federal tax credit
= 20,500 Price + destination + taxes
Ah, tax credits. So, those two items, not worth much if one is retired and owes little in taxes.
Actually the CA credit is not tied to your tax return, it's applied by the dealer during purchase or you can have a check mailed to you.

And the Federal tax credit is a credit not a deduction. So you would get that amount back (in your refund) regardless of your income.

TravelGeek
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by TravelGeek » Fri May 18, 2018 4:40 pm

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:27 pm
And the Federal tax credit is a credit not a deduction. So you would get that amount back (in your refund) regardless of your income.
I am not sure that that is accurate.

https://www.irs.com/articles/tax-credit ... deductions

Tax Credits
Tax credits can help reduce your liability dollar-for-dollar. However, they cannot reduce your income tax liability to less than zero. In other words, your gross income tax liability is the amount you are responsible for paying before any credits are applied.

The majority of tax credits are non-refundable. With non-refundable tax credits, any excess amount expires in the year in which it was used, meaning that the additional amount is not refunded to you.
AFAIK, the federal EV Tax Credit is a non-refundable tax credit.

https://www.taxact.com/support/1250/201 ... ble-credit

HEDGEFUNDIE
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Fri May 18, 2018 4:49 pm

TravelGeek wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:40 pm
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:27 pm
And the Federal tax credit is a credit not a deduction. So you would get that amount back (in your refund) regardless of your income.
I am not sure that that is accurate.

https://www.irs.com/articles/tax-credit ... deductions

Tax Credits
Tax credits can help reduce your liability dollar-for-dollar. However, they cannot reduce your income tax liability to less than zero. In other words, your gross income tax liability is the amount you are responsible for paying before any credits are applied.

The majority of tax credits are non-refundable. With non-refundable tax credits, any excess amount expires in the year in which it was used, meaning that the additional amount is not refunded to you.
AFAIK, the federal EV Tax Credit is a non-refundable tax credit.

https://www.taxact.com/support/1250/201 ... ble-credit
I stand corrected, it is indeed a non-refundable credit. Looks like the taxable income threshold to generate a $7,500 tax liability is around $50k.

inbox788
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by inbox788 » Fri May 18, 2018 5:58 pm

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:49 pm
I stand corrected, it is indeed a non-refundable credit. Looks like the taxable income threshold to generate a $7,500 tax liability is around $50k.
Is there a rationale why folks making over $50k are being subsidized? Meanwhile some localities are subsidizing low income. I'm not looking to start a debate or fight, just wondering why these programs are all over the place with seemingly opposing aims. You'd think there would be simpler ways without all the approvals, confusion and paperwork (now computer forms), kind of like BH investing.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/bus ... story.html
https://www.realclearenergy.org/article ... _rich.html
http://time.com/money/3947240/incentive ... ctric-car/

TravelGeek
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by TravelGeek » Fri May 18, 2018 6:15 pm

inbox788 wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:58 pm
Is there a rationale why folks making over $50k are being subsidized? Meanwhile some localities are subsidizing low income. I'm not looking to start a debate or fight, just wondering why these programs are all over the place with seemingly opposing aims. You'd think there would be simpler ways without all the approvals, confusion and paperwork (now computer forms), kind of like BH investing.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/bus ... story.html
https://www.realclearenergy.org/article ... _rich.html
http://time.com/money/3947240/incentive ... ctric-car/
You could ask the same question about other government subsidies. But

(a) politics is off topic in general for this site
(b) this thread is about the new 2018 Nissan LEAF

so perhaps we could try to avoid getting this thread locked? Thank you :) :sharebeer

emoore
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by emoore » Fri May 18, 2018 6:35 pm

TravelGeek wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 6:15 pm
inbox788 wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:58 pm
Is there a rationale why folks making over $50k are being subsidized? Meanwhile some localities are subsidizing low income. I'm not looking to start a debate or fight, just wondering why these programs are all over the place with seemingly opposing aims. You'd think there would be simpler ways without all the approvals, confusion and paperwork (now computer forms), kind of like BH investing.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/bus ... story.html
https://www.realclearenergy.org/article ... _rich.html
http://time.com/money/3947240/incentive ... ctric-car/
You could ask the same question about other government subsidies. But

(a) politics is off topic in general for this site
(b) this thread is about the new 2018 Nissan LEAF

so perhaps we could try to avoid getting this thread locked? Thank you :) :sharebeer
+1.

I think that’s a great price for a leaf. I’ll be in the market for an EV in a few years and right now the leaf would have to be on the list. I’d prefer more range and awd though. Hopefully more of those kinds of EVs come out soon.

inbox788
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by inbox788 » Sat May 19, 2018 3:37 am

TravelGeek wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 6:15 pm
so perhaps we could try to avoid getting this thread locked? Thank you :) :sharebeer
Agree.

I understand why some brands like Hyundai have loyalty discounts, and some brands have conquest discounts, but if you owned both a competitor and the brand you want to buy, good luck getting both. Pretty much the only folks that don’t get a discount are those that don’t drive or own a Lamborghini.

Similarly, geico offers an affiliate discount that varies, but almost everyone under the sun gets something. https://www.geico.com/save/discounts/or ... on-member/

Anyone interested in buying a Leaf or other electric car should know there are all sorts of subsidies. It’s great when they can be combined for a great deal, but that’s rare, and mostly it seems to be a lot of wasted effort and spinning wheels for many, and it distorts ones buying decisions. Anyway, if you don’t qualify for one incentive, that may automatically qualify you for a different one that you just haven’t found yet. And if you don’t find it, you either give up and don’t buy an electric car, buy something you desire less, or wind up paying more. None good outcomes.

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just frank
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by just frank » Sat May 19, 2018 6:34 am

Enjoy it! :beer

We enjoyed the 32k miles we put on our 2013 LEAF.

And we have no regrets on getting a 2017 Bolt to replace it. My wife misses the comfy interior, but loves the 200-220 miles of highway range we are getting now (250-300 miles on back roads).

We have family at a 210 mile round trip, so the utility factor vs the new LEAF was too hard for us to pass up. We're on a 18k miles/yr pace.

Cheyenne
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by Cheyenne » Sat May 19, 2018 6:51 am

I bought one of the very early Priuses and the ICE boosters all said that would be a battery nightmare. Sold it with 150k and no issues.
+1

ncbill
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by ncbill » Sat May 19, 2018 11:17 am

inbox788 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 11:42 pm
WhyNotUs wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 10:32 pm
53,000 miles on my Leaf and still have not lost a bar.
I bought one of the very early Priuses and the ICE boosters all said that would be a battery nightmare. Sold it with 150k and no issues.
It's early adopter stories like these that scare me. Hopefully, the technology is maturing. Priuses/prii do have a good reputation for reliability, and there are some hackers on youtube replacing single cells/modules. If that was readily available and affordable for the leaf, I'd pick one up for $5k right now. Besides an $8k battery pack, what else can go wrong with an electric car that's going to cost an arm and a leg?

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... les/page-2

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tonybradle ... f03c013ee9
I don't understand why you posted this.

The Leaf article clearly refers to problems with the first-generation battery pack, which hasn't been made since, IIRC, early 2013.

anoop
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by anoop » Sun May 20, 2018 12:27 am

Congratulations.

There are some incredible deals to be had on electric cars.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ubway-pass

2019 Leaf will have longer range.
https://electrek.co/2018/01/04/nissan-l ... -charging/

inbox788
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by inbox788 » Sun May 20, 2018 3:34 pm

ncbill wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 11:17 am
I don't understand why you posted this.

The Leaf article clearly refers to problems with the first-generation battery pack, which hasn't been made since, IIRC, early 2013.
I’m considering buying used a Prius, including a 2013 and the new 2018 in a few years, once used ones come to market. It’s helpful to know battery replacement costs out of warranty. If anyone knows of economic solutions for the Leaf, please share them.

I’m not likely to buy the Leaf new, but those that do and want to keep them long term may be interested in future maintance and repair costs. Is a battery pack a maintance or repair?
Battery degradation is often a big concern for new electric vehicle buyers. To a certain degree, the Nissan Leaf might be to blame since it had a lot of issues in that regard, which is why Nissan has a much more comprehensive battery capacity warranty now and the company is looking at new programs to address the issue, like this one.
https://electrek.co/2018/03/26/nissan-l ... t-program/

TravelGeek
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by TravelGeek » Sun May 20, 2018 4:02 pm

anoop wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 12:27 am
2019 Leaf will have longer range.
https://electrek.co/2018/01/04/nissan-l ... -charging/
I considered that when I was deciding whether to get the 2018 or wait for the 2019. If it was our only vehicle, the 150 mile range of the 2018 model would not be great. The CHADeMo network in the Pacific Northwest isn’t bad, but obviously has significant gaps in the rural areas.

https://www.evsolutions.com/Upload/Evne ... EH_Map.pdf

But we have a relatively new Forester for longer road trips. So for us the EV is really for local/regional driving, which is most of our trips at the moment. And that raised the question of how much more I would be willing to pay for a 50% largest battery / range if I don’t actually need it. For our use 150 miles seemed sufficient with enough margin that we wouldn’t have to think much about charging away from home.

The rumored thermal management system for the battery pack might be a reason to hold off until more info becomes available. But we are in the PNW, so hopefully the battery in our 2018 won’t have problems.

mbasherp
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by mbasherp » Sun May 20, 2018 4:09 pm

What a deal! I recently purchased a used 2015 Leaf and am happy enough so far. I still have a bit of range anxiety, but we have a separate ICE for everything else. The purpose of the Leaf was to be the ultra economical and efficient around town car. If I had a 2018 with 150 mile range, I wouldn’t worry at all, but the ‘15 was also the right price!

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just frank
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by just frank » Sun May 20, 2018 8:07 pm

Sounds like the 2019 LEAF will have an LG pack with thermal management in a 60 kWh size. IOW, it will have a drivetrain similar to the 2017 Bolt, but the interior of the LEAF. In my opinion that will be sweet (depending on price), but I couldn't wait that long.

The 2019 Bolt **might** get an upgrade to 80 kWh for 2019...the future is still hazy.

inbox788
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by inbox788 » Mon May 21, 2018 3:15 am

TravelGeek wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 4:02 pm
And that raised the question of how much more I would be willing to pay for a 50% largest battery / range if I don’t actually need it. For our use 150 miles seemed sufficient with enough margin that we wouldn’t have to think much about charging away from home.
While the 150 range isn’t needed today, it will be reduced the longer you own your car. The guarantees are only to 70 or 80%, so you are future proofing future range. Is 120 enough in 5 years?

https://www.fleetcarma.com/todays-elect ... batteries/

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just frank
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by just frank » Mon May 21, 2018 5:02 am

For these shorter range EVs, with rapidly evolving tech....lease if you can get a good deal.

300+ mile EVs will be cheap in 5 years.

HEDGEFUNDIE
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Mon May 21, 2018 6:20 pm

just frank wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 5:02 am
For these shorter range EVs, with rapidly evolving tech....lease if you can get a good deal.

300+ mile EVs will be cheap in 5 years.
Reasons why you might want to buy instead of lease:

1. Certain discounts (e.g. PG&E) are only applicable to purchases.
2. Leases always include loan interest. Purchases can be eligible for 0% APR loan offers.
3. Leases include an implied bet on the residual value of the car. Which may or may not work in your favor.
4. Exceeding your lease mileage can be cost prohibitive.

TravelGeek
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by TravelGeek » Mon May 21, 2018 7:28 pm

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 6:20 pm
3. Leases include an implied bet on the residual value of the car. Which may or may not work in your favor.
When I looked at it a few weeks ago, it seemed that Nissan had bumped up the residual by several thousand dollar from the lease offers that were out there earlier this year. https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25638

HEDGEFUNDIE
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Mon May 21, 2018 7:43 pm

TravelGeek wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 7:28 pm
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 6:20 pm
3. Leases include an implied bet on the residual value of the car. Which may or may not work in your favor.
When I looked at it a few weeks ago, it seemed that Nissan had bumped up the residual by several thousand dollar from the lease offers that were out there earlier this year. https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25638
Reading that link it appears there is a fifth reason to buy instead of lease: greedy dealers may pocket a portion of the federal tax credit.

squirm
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by squirm » Mon May 21, 2018 7:47 pm

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 9:13 pm
Bay Area Bogleheads in the market for a new EV, I just got an insane deal on the new 2018 Nissan Leaf.

2018 Nissan Leaf SV w/ Tech Package (midrange model)

36,000 MSRP
- 3,000 PG&E discount
- 2,500 Vehicle Purchase Program (technically not allowed to stack with PG&E discount but I drove a hard bargain)
- 2,500 CA state credit
- 7,500 Federal tax credit
= 20,500 Price + destination + taxes

They threw in a 0% APR loan for 72 months. And two years of free charging at public charging stations.

This is essentially getting a free car to drive for 12-18 months (until it depreciates to the $20k price).
Did you check with you Air Quality Board? They'll usually have an incentive.

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just frank
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by just frank » Mon May 21, 2018 7:48 pm

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 6:20 pm
just frank wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 5:02 am
For these shorter range EVs, with rapidly evolving tech....lease if you can get a good deal.

300+ mile EVs will be cheap in 5 years.
Reasons why you might want to buy instead of lease:

1. Certain discounts (e.g. PG&E) are only applicable to purchases.
2. Leases always include loan interest. Purchases can be eligible for 0% APR loan offers.
3. Leases include an implied bet on the residual value of the car. Which may or may not work in your favor.
4. Exceeding your lease mileage can be cost prohibitive.
By all means calculate both outcomes....but the LEAF lease deals were WAY cheaper than buying a couple years ago.

mervinj7
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by mervinj7 » Tue May 22, 2018 12:21 pm

just frank wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 7:48 pm
By all means calculate both outcomes....but the LEAF lease deals were WAY cheaper than buying a couple years ago.
Frank, as you suggested I was trying to work out the Lease Vs Buy deal. As hedgefundie mentioned, there are some discounts that are only available if you buy and Nissan seems to be pocketing part of the Federal Tax Credit.

For 2018 Leaf SV (no tech package).
Purchase

MSRP: $33,755.00
PG&E Discount: -$3000
VPP Discount: -$2500
Federal Tax Credit: -$7500
CA Clean Vehicle Rebate: -$2500
PG&E Clean Fuel Rebate: -$500
Total: $17755 (0% APR for 72 months)

Lease

Down Payment: $3375 $914
Monthly Payment: $345*36 = $12420 $11484
Lease End Fee: $395
CA Clean Vehicle Rebate: -$2500
PG&E Clean Fuel Rebate: -$500
Total Cost after 36 months: $12760 9793

Based on the numbers I've been quoted, if a 3 year Nissan Leaf will be worth at least ~$5k$8k, then I'm better off buying the car. As a datapoint, an used 2015 Leaf SV can be bought currently for $12k-$14k. Am I missing something?

EDIT: I changed the lease numbers based on http://ev-vin.blogspot.com/
Last edited by mervinj7 on Wed May 23, 2018 10:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

TravelGeek
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by TravelGeek » Tue May 22, 2018 12:39 pm

mervinj7 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 12:21 pm
Am I missing something?
I did similar mental math, though we don't get quite as many rebates/credits in OR ($7500 fed credit + $2500 state rebate, hopefully).

If you can get a 72 month 0% APR loan, that earns you some interest (maybe $1500 or so if you actually keep the loan/vehicle for six years).

Also, I figured that we would unlikely drive 12k miles per year. More likely 8k. It's a bit uncertain because our job situation is changing (no more commute?) I don't think Nissan does 8k mile leases, so we would likely have overpaid for unused miles.

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just frank
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Location: Philly Metro

Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by just frank » Tue May 22, 2018 6:47 pm

The LEAF lease I got was considerably more favorable.

It was $1500 down and $238/mo (in 2014). My neighbor got $0 down, $214/mo (in 2016).

And we only managed ~9k miles/year.

perl
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by perl » Tue May 22, 2018 8:40 pm

Last summer I got a new 2017 Leaf for $11k. It's a great car, comfortable and fun to drive. Enjoy yours!

TravelGeek
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by TravelGeek » Tue May 22, 2018 9:01 pm

just frank wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 6:47 pm
The LEAF lease I got was considerably more favorable.

It was $1500 down and $238/mo (in 2014). My neighbor got $0 down, $214/mo (in 2016).
The cheapest model (S) without any extras is currently offered for $1500 down, $279/month. My configuration (SL) is $1500 down and $428/month. $469 with $0 down. Ouch.
perl wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 8:40 pm
Last summer I got a new 2017 Leaf for $11k. It's a great car, comfortable and fun to drive. Enjoy yours!
I saw deals like that and was tempted.

2m2037
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by 2m2037 » Tue May 22, 2018 11:05 pm

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 6:20 pm
just frank wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 5:02 am
For these shorter range EVs, with rapidly evolving tech....lease if you can get a good deal.

300+ mile EVs will be cheap in 5 years.
Reasons why you might want to buy instead of lease:

1. Certain discounts (e.g. PG&E) are only applicable to purchases.
2. Leases always include loan interest. Purchases can be eligible for 0% APR loan offers.
3. Leases include an implied bet on the residual value of the car. Which may or may not work in your favor.
4. Exceeding your lease mileage can be cost prohibitive.
1. We leased and applied successfully for the PG&E rebate. Not sure why you think it only applies to purchases.
2. You have to look at total overall cost as the same thing can be packaged differently.
3. With a lease you are buying an option. You will come out ahead in 2 out of 3 scenarios. i.e. market price is higher than residual, you buy and sell for a profit; if market price is lower than residual, you just paid less than the actual depreciation cost over the past 3 years; if market price equals residual, it's a neutral situation.
4. Agreed, but you can do a best estimate of your needs entering the lease.

2m2037
Posts: 203
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by 2m2037 » Tue May 22, 2018 11:11 pm

mervinj7 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 12:21 pm
just frank wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 7:48 pm
By all means calculate both outcomes....but the LEAF lease deals were WAY cheaper than buying a couple years ago.
Frank, as you suggested I was trying to work out the Lease Vs Buy deal. As hedgefundie mentioned, there are some discounts that are only available if you buy and Nissan seems to be pocketing part of the Federal Tax Credit.

For 2018 Leaf SV (no tech package).
Purchase

MSRP: $33,755.00
PG&E Discount: -$3000
VPP Discount: -$2500
Federal Tax Credit: -$7500
CA Clean Vehicle Rebate: -$2500
PG&E Clean Fuel Rebate: -$500
Total: $17755 (0% APR for 72 months)

Lease

Down Payment: $3375
Monthly Payment: $345*36 = $12420
Lease End Fee: $395
CA Clean Vehicle Rebate: -$2500
PG&E Clean Fuel Rebate: -$500
Total Cost after 36 months: $12760

Based on the numbers I've been quoted, if a 3 year Nissan Leaf will be worth at least ~$5k, then I'm better off buying the car. As a datapoint, an used 2015 Leaf SV can be bought currently for $12k-$14k. Am I missing something?
Your lease quote is pretty high. I would be shooting for around the $12k mark total cost BEFORE the rebates. Check out this site for reference so you don't get fleeced at the dealership - http://ev-vin.blogspot.com/?m=1

HEDGEFUNDIE
Posts: 854
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Tue May 22, 2018 11:51 pm

2m2037 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 11:05 pm
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 6:20 pm
just frank wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 5:02 am
For these shorter range EVs, with rapidly evolving tech....lease if you can get a good deal.

300+ mile EVs will be cheap in 5 years.
Reasons why you might want to buy instead of lease:

1. Certain discounts (e.g. PG&E) are only applicable to purchases.
2. Leases always include loan interest. Purchases can be eligible for 0% APR loan offers.
3. Leases include an implied bet on the residual value of the car. Which may or may not work in your favor.
4. Exceeding your lease mileage can be cost prohibitive.
1. We leased and applied successfully for the PG&E rebate. Not sure why you think it only applies to purchases.
2. You have to look at total overall cost as the same thing can be packaged differently.
3. With a lease you are buying an option. You will come out ahead in 2 out of 3 scenarios. i.e. market price is higher than residual, you buy and sell for a profit; if market price is lower than residual, you just paid less than the actual depreciation cost over the past 3 years; if market price equals residual, it's a neutral situation.
4. Agreed, but you can do a best estimate of your needs entering the lease.
1. https://www.pge.com/en/about/newsroom/n ... ic_vehicle

HEDGEFUNDIE
Posts: 854
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Tue May 22, 2018 11:54 pm

2m2037 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 11:11 pm
mervinj7 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 12:21 pm
just frank wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 7:48 pm
By all means calculate both outcomes....but the LEAF lease deals were WAY cheaper than buying a couple years ago.
Frank, as you suggested I was trying to work out the Lease Vs Buy deal. As hedgefundie mentioned, there are some discounts that are only available if you buy and Nissan seems to be pocketing part of the Federal Tax Credit.

For 2018 Leaf SV (no tech package).
Purchase

MSRP: $33,755.00
PG&E Discount: -$3000
VPP Discount: -$2500
Federal Tax Credit: -$7500
CA Clean Vehicle Rebate: -$2500
PG&E Clean Fuel Rebate: -$500
Total: $17755 (0% APR for 72 months)

Lease

Down Payment: $3375
Monthly Payment: $345*36 = $12420
Lease End Fee: $395
CA Clean Vehicle Rebate: -$2500
PG&E Clean Fuel Rebate: -$500
Total Cost after 36 months: $12760

Based on the numbers I've been quoted, if a 3 year Nissan Leaf will be worth at least ~$5k, then I'm better off buying the car. As a datapoint, an used 2015 Leaf SV can be bought currently for $12k-$14k. Am I missing something?
Your lease quote is pretty high. I would be shooting for around the $12k mark total cost BEFORE the rebates. Check out this site for reference so you don't get fleeced at the dealership - http://ev-vin.blogspot.com/?m=1
Reading that site you can see that he's not getting fleeced at all. The 2018 model is just more expensive than the 2017 model (by $100/month).

mervinj7
Posts: 625
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:10 pm

Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by mervinj7 » Wed May 23, 2018 10:47 am

2m2037 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 11:11 pm
Your lease quote is pretty high. I would be shooting for around the $12k mark total cost BEFORE the rebates. Check out this site for reference so you don't get fleeced at the dealership - http://ev-vin.blogspot.com/?m=1
Great! I edited my original post to reflect the best quote for a 2018 Nissan Leaf SV lease. However, I haven't confirmed that I can get this quote as well but let's assume we will. Also, the PG&E discount of $3k off MSRP is only for buying the car. The PG&E Clean Fuel Rebate of $500 is for both buying and leasing a car.

Based on this, it is $17755 for buying the car vs. $9793 for a 3 year lease. That's roughly an ~$8k difference. So the next question is based on estimates for future depreciation, will a 2018 Leaf SV be worth at least $8k in 3 years? Another issue is that my wife currently drives 15k miles a year, so she will need to switch cars once in awhile to keep the mileage under 12k if we lease.

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just frank
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Location: Philly Metro

Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by just frank » Wed May 23, 2018 11:05 am

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 11:54 pm
Reading that site you can see that he's not getting fleeced at all. The 2018 model is just more expensive than the 2017 model (by $100/month).
Totally agree. I was lined up to get a 2018 LEAF to replace my old one....and I went for the Bolt.

It was a good bit more than the (old) LEAF, and I took the plunge before the 2018 LEAF prices were announced. I was glad to see that the new LEAF is a lot more expensive....and shockingly close to the Bolt price.

Nissan had been 'hinting' to me that the 2018 would basically cost the same as the old LEAF, but it seems to just not be so.

TravelGeek
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by TravelGeek » Wed May 23, 2018 11:25 am

just frank wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 11:05 am
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 11:54 pm
Reading that site you can see that he's not getting fleeced at all. The 2018 model is just more expensive than the 2017 model (by $100/month).
Totally agree. I was lined up to get a 2018 LEAF to replace my old one....and I went for the Bolt.

It was a good bit more than the (old) LEAF, and I took the plunge before the 2018 LEAF prices were announced. I was glad to see that the new LEAF is a lot more expensive....and shockingly close to the Bolt price.

Nissan had been 'hinting' to me that the 2018 would basically cost the same as the old LEAF, but it seems to just not be so.
But just to be clear, that's for leases, not for outright purchases, correct? The MSRP for the 2018 LEAF S actually dropped a bit compared to the earlier model as I recall?

I was originally planning to lease, but ended up purchasing the vehicle. I would have gone for the Bolt if the nearest dealer selling/maintaining it hadn't been 140 miles+ away. I know there is little maintenance required and it is a reliable vehicle... but so was our Prius, and the week before we wanted to trade it in the IPM (Intelligent Power Module) died and the vehicle had to be towed into the dealership for a one-week "hospitalization" and warranty replacement. Having a local Nissan dealer that actively promotes EVs for a computer on wheels was ultimately an important factor for us.

oxothuk
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by oxothuk » Wed May 23, 2018 11:32 am

mervinj7 wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 10:47 am
So the next question is based on estimates for future depreciation, will a 2018 Leaf SV be worth at least $8k in 3 years?
Seems likely, based on what 3 year old Leafs go for now. Given your wife's driving pattern, I would go for the purchase option.

randomguy
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by randomguy » Wed May 23, 2018 11:57 am

bberris wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:51 am
harrychan wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 10:34 pm
I looked deep into the Leaf's depreciation and it depreciates 50% by year 2 and 55% by year 3. Go figure...
I figure it's due to having no subsidy as a used car.
If you reduce the MSRP by the amount of tax credits, the depreciation looks like most other cars.
Depreciation % are pretty meaningless since they are based on MSRP. Some cars are sold at MSRP. Some are sold at 20% off

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dgm
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by dgm » Wed May 23, 2018 12:06 pm

inbox788 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 11:42 pm
Priuses/prii do have a good reputation for reliability, and there are some hackers on youtube replacing single cells/modules.
I usually ask a few local mechanics what car has the least problems. The ones I spoke to all recommended prius. However am looking to go 100% electric to replace my other car for local things. noticed a friend this weekend had a leaf. maybe will ask about it. thanks for the tip on the good deal!

TravelGeek
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Re: New 2018 Nissan Leaf (with 150 mi range)

Post by TravelGeek » Wed May 23, 2018 2:00 pm

dgm wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 12:06 pm
I usually ask a few local mechanics what car has the least problems. The ones I spoke to all recommended prius. However am looking to go 100% electric to replace my other car for local things. noticed a friend this weekend had a leaf. maybe will ask about it. thanks for the tip on the good deal!
There's also some discussion about good deals on used BMW i3 in the Tesla thread

e.g., viewtopic.php?f=11&t=227143&start=900#p3941071

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