how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

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jerryk68
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by jerryk68 » Tue May 22, 2018 1:35 pm

When I eat in a sit down restaurant I tip 15% to 20% depending on the service. It doesn’t matter if I have a high or low cost meal the percentage is the same.

I am not a fast food person and I have not been in a McDonald’s, Burger King or any other fast food burger joint in a couple years. In my experience, tips were not expected or given There was basically no service so no tip expected. Although in the last couple years I have noticed a jar of mostly dollars at the registers at pick up restaurants which to me suggests leaving a tip. I always thought that tips were for extra service but not anymore. It seems I am being requested to supplement an employee’s salary for doing their job.

We ate dinner last night at Panera Bread. Same basis concert as a burger joint--- you place your order and it’s placed on a tray for pickup at another location and you bus your own table but this time I paid with my debit card. This time the payment screen asked if I wanted to add a tip to my order. I chose no tip because there was no service. Am I a cheap skate or has tipping protocol changed?

RollTide31457
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by RollTide31457 » Tue May 22, 2018 1:44 pm

Usually only add a tip if adequate service is provided - drinks are refilled promptly without asking, food is delivered as ordered and in a prompt manner, seating assignments are comfortable and not unnecessarily crowded, etc.

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deanbrew
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by deanbrew » Tue May 22, 2018 1:58 pm

jerryk68 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:35 pm
We ate dinner last night at Panera Bread. Same basis concert as a burger joint--- you place your order and it’s placed on a tray for pickup at another location and you bus your own table but this time I paid with my debit card. This time the payment screen asked if I wanted to add a tip to my order. I chose no tip because there was no service. Am I a cheap skate or has tipping protocol changed?
There was an entire thread about partial-service eateries last year: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=218931

From that thread, there were three possibilities:
I've noticed three main types of restaurants where you order at the counter. In all, you pay in advance and you are prompted to enter a tip amount:
1. You pick up your food at the counter, then you clean up after yourself and put your dishes by the trash can, like at Panera.
2. They bring the food to you, then you clean up after yourself as in #1.
3. They bring the food out to you and you leave your dishes at the table/they clean up for you.
The consensus is that you tip appropriately for the level of service. Personally, I don't tip for #1, I might drop something in the jar for #2, and I definitely tip for #3.

Frankly, it gets confusing. In a place where tips are not expected, the employer has to pay everyone at least minimum wage. So, the conventional wisdom that tips make up for special low waiter wages does not apply.

One should also be aware that not all states and municipalities have sub-minimum wage pay for servers. I think several posters here live in CA, for example, where servers have to be paid at least $10.50 to $11.00 by their employer before tips. In states like this, depending on how the restaurant distributes tips, servers can make pretty good money if they are being paid a regular wage plus earning tips.

https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm
"The course of history shows that as the government grows, liberty decreases." Thomas Jefferson

2m2037
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by 2m2037 » Tue May 22, 2018 3:27 pm

tim1999 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:46 pm
Some will call me cheap, but I tip $10 for wine regardless of the price of the bottle, maybe $20 if it's a real swanky place and my employer is paying. They don't put in any more work on a $400 bottle vs. a $40 one.
Same concept with bringing a $120 steak vs a $12 burger to your table. Why would I tip the former $24 and the latter $2.40? :wink:

2m2037
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by 2m2037 » Tue May 22, 2018 3:34 pm

LFKB wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:48 pm
tim1999 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:46 pm
Some will call me cheap, but I tip $10 for wine regardless of the price of the bottle, maybe $20 if it's a real swanky place and my employer is paying. They don't put in any more work on a $400 bottle vs. a $40 one.
Why is it different for wine than food? Do they put in more work carrying out a $100 steak vs a $10 steak?

Also, their inventory/carrying cost is much higher on the $400 bottle.

Some people here are crazy cheap.
They do not; which is why I cannot understand why people base their tips on how much the food costs. It simply does not make sense. Should the Costco cashier who helps a customer with a $10 purchase be paid less than a cashier in the next lane who scans a $5,000 TV for another customer?

SleepKing
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by SleepKing » Tue May 22, 2018 3:37 pm

This is a very entertaining thread!

We'll usually tip 15% on the total bill (not counting tax) and 20% for exemplary service. Never bought more than ~$100 bottle in a restaurant...I shudder thinking about the markups on alcohol...

Oddly, when ordering at the bar, I'll tip the bartender $1 per drink regardless if they pop the top, pour wine, line up some shots, or craft a complex cocktail....hmmm...

jerryk68
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by jerryk68 » Tue May 22, 2018 3:56 pm

deanbrew wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:58 pm
jerryk68 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:35 pm
We ate dinner last night at Panera Bread. Same basis concert as a burger joint--- you place your order and it’s placed on a tray for pickup at another location and you bus your own table but this time I paid with my debit card. This time the payment screen asked if I wanted to add a tip to my order. I chose no tip because there was no service. Am I a cheap skate or has tipping protocol changed?
There was an entire thread about partial-service eateries last year: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=218931

From that thread, there were three possibilities:
I've noticed three main types of restaurants where you order at the counter. In all, you pay in advance and you are prompted to enter a tip amount:
1. You pick up your food at the counter, then you clean up after yourself and put your dishes by the trash can, like at Panera.
2. They bring the food to you, then you clean up after yourself as in #1.
3. They bring the food out to you and you leave your dishes at the table/they clean up for you.
The consensus is that you tip appropriately for the level of service. Personally, I don't tip for #1, I might drop something in the jar for #2, and I definitely tip for #3.

Frankly, it gets confusing. In a place where tips are not expected, the employer has to pay everyone at least minimum wage. So, the conventional wisdom that tips make up for special low waiter wages does not apply.

One should also be aware that not all states and municipalities have sub-minimum wage pay for servers. I think several posters here live in CA, for example, where servers have to be paid at least $10.50 to $11.00 by their employer before tips. In states like this, depending on how the restaurant distributes tips, servers can make pretty good money if they are being paid a regular wage plus earning tips.

https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm
Dean... Thanks for sharing this thread. I should also say that I always tip in cash and never on a debit or credit receipt. I always document on the receipt that a tip was left at the table. Too many times management had their fingers in the tip jar. I use to dine at this facility but have since moved to other restaurants. This cheating really angered me.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Petes+t ... irefox-b-1

2m2037
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by 2m2037 » Tue May 22, 2018 4:05 pm

monkey_business wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 10:46 am
If you are not willing to tip the customary 15%+ on a meal, don't go to a restaurant. I am amazed at the mental gymnastics people are doing to justify not giving the proper tip.

It's fine if you think the tipping system in the US is bad. No problem. Just don't take it out on the wait staff. Stay home and cook your own food. Way more Boglehead and zero tipping involved.
If you're not willing to accept that some diners can leave poor tips, don't work at a restaurant. :beer

mega317
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by mega317 » Tue May 22, 2018 4:09 pm

RollTide31457 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:44 pm
Usually only add a tip if adequate service is provided - drinks are refilled promptly without asking, food is delivered as ordered and in a prompt manner, seating assignments are comfortable and not unnecessarily crowded, etc.
Like, if you have to ask for more water you tip $0.00?

N10sive
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by N10sive » Tue May 22, 2018 4:26 pm

mega317 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 4:09 pm
RollTide31457 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:44 pm
Usually only add a tip if adequate service is provided - drinks are refilled promptly without asking, food is delivered as ordered and in a prompt manner, seating assignments are comfortable and not unnecessarily crowded, etc.
Like, if you have to ask for more water you tip $0.00?
Or unnecessarily crowded? How does a restaurant determine how many customers come in?!?! This thread is pretty funny.

jhh9327
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by jhh9327 » Tue May 22, 2018 4:34 pm

I'm sure I missed the explanation from someone across the 150+ comments, but for those that tip less for wine than food, do you communicate this at all on the bill? Or do you just leave it for the server to try and guess why they "only" received a 13% overall tip (as an example) even though you were satisfied and came up with the tip total by giving 15% or more on the food, but something less for the wine?

LFKB
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by LFKB » Tue May 22, 2018 11:39 pm

2m2037 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 3:34 pm
LFKB wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:48 pm
tim1999 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:46 pm
Some will call me cheap, but I tip $10 for wine regardless of the price of the bottle, maybe $20 if it's a real swanky place and my employer is paying. They don't put in any more work on a $400 bottle vs. a $40 one.
Why is it different for wine than food? Do they put in more work carrying out a $100 steak vs a $10 steak?

Also, their inventory/carrying cost is much higher on the $400 bottle.

Some people here are crazy cheap.
They do not; which is why I cannot understand why people base their tips on how much the food costs. It simply does not make sense. Should the Costco cashier who helps a customer with a $10 purchase be paid less than a cashier in the next lane who scans a $5,000 TV for another customer?
You don’t understand the difference? It’s because servers at high end restaurants are more skilled and require higher tips/pay, which attracts the talent there. It does not require more skill to scan a $10 purchase or a $5,000 TV at Costco.

GCD
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by GCD » Wed May 23, 2018 8:40 am

It seems like there are some people on here who have never eaten at a really nice restaurant or worked in the food service industry. There is a definite progression and skill to being a waiter. I hesitate to call it a career, but there is skill involved. The way the restaurant industry works is you don't really promote within a restaurant, you move up to nicer ones. Your pay increases because you are working at nicer restaurants and getting bigger tips. This is kind of the career path for waiters. As a former waiter (I sucked at it too), you have real interviews and stiff competition to get work at high end restaurants. I didn't get hired at some really nice restaurants I tried to get on with because I didn't have my silverware nuances down.

I don't mean to be confrontational, but I'm really befuddled. Do some of you really not recognize the superior service you are getting at a restaurant that serves multi-hundred $ bottles of wine over Olive Garden? If waitstaff pay tops out at Outback Steakhouse levels, nobody would ever bother to provide the high levels of service you get at a Michelin restaurant. To screw those people because the weight of the steak or bottle of wine they brought you is the same as what you had at Ponderosa is absurd.

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deanbrew
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by deanbrew » Wed May 23, 2018 9:10 am

GCD wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 8:40 am
It seems like there are some people on here who have never eaten at a really nice restaurant or worked in the food service industry. There is a definite progression and skill to being a waiter. I hesitate to call it a career, but there is skill involved. The way the restaurant industry works is you don't really promote within a restaurant, you move up to nicer ones. Your pay increases because you are working at nicer restaurants and getting bigger tips. This is kind of the career path for waiters. As a former waiter (I sucked at it too), you have real interviews and stiff competition to get work at high end restaurants. I didn't get hired at some really nice restaurants I tried to get on with because I didn't have my silverware nuances down.

I don't mean to be confrontational, but I'm really befuddled. Do some of you really not recognize the superior service you are getting at a restaurant that serves multi-hundred $ bottles of wine over Olive Garden? If waitstaff pay tops out at Outback Steakhouse levels, nobody would ever bother to provide the high levels of service you get at a Michelin restaurant. To screw those people because the weight of the steak or bottle of wine they brought you is the same as what you had at Ponderosa is absurd.
You make some excellent points, and I don't disagree completely. But I still think it's illogical to use a strict percentage when buying a $300 vs. $30 bottle of wine at a restaurant.

I also have qualms about the "standard" tip percentage moving up from 10 to 12 to 15 to 18 to 20 percent, with some suggesting that 25 percent is usual. I perhaps attribute this to all of the people who work as servers or formerly worked as servers raising the bar on the rest of us, but I'm not sure that really explains it. Do tips get split between servers, bartenders, expediters and busboys more now than in the past?
"The course of history shows that as the government grows, liberty decreases." Thomas Jefferson

GCD
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by GCD » Wed May 23, 2018 9:51 am

deanbrew wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 9:10 am
I also have qualms about the "standard" tip percentage moving up from 10 to 12 to 15 to 18 to 20 percent, with some suggesting that 25 percent is usual.

I hate this too. I wish the tipping structure in the US was different. Tip inflation is annoying.

TheRightKost87
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by TheRightKost87 » Wed May 23, 2018 10:46 am

GCD wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 8:40 am
I don't mean to be confrontational, but I'm really befuddled. Do some of you really not recognize the superior service you are getting at a restaurant that serves multi-hundred $ bottles of wine over Olive Garden?
I definitely notice it, although it's not something I request or even desire. I do tip the customary amount even though I don't agree with it, because I don't want to be labeled a cheapskate (why? I'm not sure).

A situation that would be interesting, although would almost certainly never happen, would be to have these high-end restaurants provide you a choice before you sit down. You can choose a high-end server, or a low-end server. The high-end server will have extensive experience, will know in-depth details of each entree, will make sure your water glass is always full, your silverware is properly arranged, will check in with you every few minutes, and will clear plates as they are finished - this server will expect a tip of ~25%. The low-end server will be less experienced, won't be able to tell you specifics about their various plates, hands you a roll of silverware upon seating, and needs to be flagged down if you need anything - this one will expect a tip of ~10%.

Personally, I'd probably choose the latter most of the time, as the additional pampering wouldn't be worth $30 to me on a $200 bill, but the option would be there for those that enjoy the extra service.
"The problem with diversification is that it works, whether or not we want it to"

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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by GCD » Wed May 23, 2018 11:03 am

TheRightKost87 wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 10:46 am
GCD wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 8:40 am
I don't mean to be confrontational, but I'm really befuddled. Do some of you really not recognize the superior service you are getting at a restaurant that serves multi-hundred $ bottles of wine over Olive Garden?
I definitely notice it, although it's not something I request or even desire. I do tip the customary amount even though I don't agree with it, because I don't want to be labeled a cheapskate (why? I'm not sure).

A situation that would be interesting, although would almost certainly never happen, would be to have these high-end restaurants provide you a choice before you sit down. You can choose a high-end server, or a low-end server. The high-end server will have extensive experience, will know in-depth details of each entree, will make sure your water glass is always full, your silverware is properly arranged, will check in with you every few minutes, and will clear plates as they are finished - this server will expect a tip of ~25%. The low-end server will be less experienced, won't be able to tell you specifics about their various plates, hands you a roll of silverware upon seating, and needs to be flagged down if you need anything - this one will expect a tip of ~10%.

Personally, I'd probably choose the latter most of the time, as the additional pampering wouldn't be worth $30 to me on a $200 bill, but the option would be there for those that enjoy the extra service.
I hear you, but it's kind of like wanting a Ferrari engine and tires in a car with Ford trim. You just want performance, you don't care about fluff. But the two end up being inseparable. It's the rare restaurant that is going to give 5 star food with 2 star ambiance.

Nearly A Moose
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by Nearly A Moose » Wed May 23, 2018 12:41 pm

GCD wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 8:40 am
It seems like there are some people on here who have never eaten at a really nice restaurant or worked in the food service industry. There is a definite progression and skill to being a waiter. I hesitate to call it a career, but there is skill involved. The way the restaurant industry works is you don't really promote within a restaurant, you move up to nicer ones. Your pay increases because you are working at nicer restaurants and getting bigger tips. This is kind of the career path for waiters. As a former waiter (I sucked at it too), you have real interviews and stiff competition to get work at high end restaurants. I didn't get hired at some really nice restaurants I tried to get on with because I didn't have my silverware nuances down.

I don't mean to be confrontational, but I'm really befuddled. Do some of you really not recognize the superior service you are getting at a restaurant that serves multi-hundred $ bottles of wine over Olive Garden? If waitstaff pay tops out at Outback Steakhouse levels, nobody would ever bother to provide the high levels of service you get at a Michelin restaurant. To screw those people because the weight of the steak or bottle of wine they brought you is the same as what you had at Ponderosa is absurd.
As a staunch 20% tipper (on everything, tax too), I agree with this. Go to a really nice restaurant, tell the waiver what you think you'll want as an entree, and ask for a recommendation for an appetizer and bottle of wine to complement it correctly. He or she will be very familiar with the dishes and will be able to tailor the meal to your preferences. None of that "well, I really like the fried cheese poppers" stuff you get at Applebee's (which I also dine at and secretly like more than I probably should). There are often after hours wine tasting, etc for the wait staff too to get trained up on this. As compensation for acquiring that skill, these waiters should be paid more. That's why you can't tip a flat $10 at Applebee's and at French Laundry. Of course, this would all be fixed if making employee-specific compensation decisions wasn't outsourced to customers.

Also, I haven't worked in food service but know plenty who have. It's hard work and waitstaff can easily get really screwed. I will always err on the side of being generous.
Pardon typos, I'm probably using my fat thumbs on a tiny phone.

PhilosophyAndrew
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by PhilosophyAndrew » Wed May 23, 2018 1:48 pm

deanbrew wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 9:10 am
I also have qualms about the "standard" tip percentage moving up from 10 to 12 to 15 to 18 to 20 percent, with some suggesting that 25 percent is usual. I perhaps attribute this to all of the people who work as servers or formerly worked as servers raising the bar on the rest of us, but I'm not sure that really explains it. Do tips get split between servers, bartenders, expediters and busboys more now than in the past?
When did this progression of normative tip amounts take place? In the 1970s, when I was a boy, my Dad taught me that the standard tip was 15% at an everyday restaurant and 20% at an upscale restaurant. So, if the progression you describe was a nationwide phenomenon, it must have been well under way by then.

In the 40+ years since then, perhaps there has been a progression where 20% is more standard than 15% at non-upscale restaurants, but I’m not sure that is the case nationwide and suspect there are parts of the country where what my Dad taught me still holds true.


Andy.

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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by roymeo » Wed May 23, 2018 2:04 pm

PhilosophyAndrew wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 1:48 pm
When did this progression of normative tip amounts take place? In the 1970s, when I was a boy, my Dad taught me that the standard tip was 15% at an everyday restaurant and 20% at an upscale restaurant. So, if the progression you describe was a nationwide phenomenon, it must have been well under way by then.

In the 40+ years since then, perhaps there has been a progression where 20% is more standard than 15% at non-upscale restaurants, but I’m not sure that is the case nationwide and suspect there are parts of the country where what my Dad taught me still holds true.

Andy.
I think you're the first person to identify that the US isn't a complete wash of monoculture. Yes, I bet this started in some big expensive places and is slowly working it way around.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magaz ... -Solution/
http://time.com/money/3394185/tipping-m ... s-history/
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deanbrew
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by deanbrew » Wed May 23, 2018 2:32 pm

According to the second and third links in the previous post, 10% was standard in 1922 and 15% was standard as recently as 2004 to 2008. So, it appears that the increase to 18 and/or 20 percent (if true) has happened during the past 10 years. That's pretty recent. So, we either adjust or we don't. In the end, the tip is discretionary, and 15 percent sure shouldn't be seen as an expression of dissatisfaction.

I left $50 as a tip for a recent meal (at a nice restaurant) for five people, which was 15 percent. Call me cheap, call me out of touch, call me whatever, but I am not feeling guilty about a $10 per person gratuity. Frankly, I don't think I got my money's worth at that amount, but I'll admit that social norms kept me from leaving less.
Last edited by deanbrew on Wed May 23, 2018 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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student
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by student » Wed May 23, 2018 2:38 pm

PhilosophyAndrew wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 1:48 pm
deanbrew wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 9:10 am
I also have qualms about the "standard" tip percentage moving up from 10 to 12 to 15 to 18 to 20 percent, with some suggesting that 25 percent is usual. I perhaps attribute this to all of the people who work as servers or formerly worked as servers raising the bar on the rest of us, but I'm not sure that really explains it. Do tips get split between servers, bartenders, expediters and busboys more now than in the past?
When did this progression of normative tip amounts take place? In the 1970s, when I was a boy, my Dad taught me that the standard tip was 15% at an everyday restaurant and 20% at an upscale restaurant. So, if the progression you describe was a nationwide phenomenon, it must have been well under way by then.

In the 40+ years since then, perhaps there has been a progression where 20% is more standard than 15% at non-upscale restaurants, but I’m not sure that is the case nationwide and suspect there are parts of the country where what my Dad taught me still holds true.


Andy.
Here is an article from someone who advocated 20% but acknowledged a 15% recommendation, which the author considered outdated. http://www.laweekly.com/restaurants/maz ... en-9481533

Here is an article that referenced above with several remarks regarding the 15% standard http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magaz ... -Solution/

Personally I follow the 15%-20% rule per Emily Post Institute.

Edit: Minor.
Last edited by student on Wed May 23, 2018 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mega317
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by mega317 » Wed May 23, 2018 3:03 pm

deanbrew wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 9:10 am
But I still think it's illogical to use a strict percentage when buying a $300 vs. $30 bottle of wine at a restaurant.
Sure it's illogical. The whole system is illogical and I don't recall reading one post in any tipping thread that argues otherwise. But it is also illogical to stiff people who are trying to earn a living.

N10sive
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by N10sive » Wed May 23, 2018 3:14 pm

mega317 wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 3:03 pm
deanbrew wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 9:10 am
But I still think it's illogical to use a strict percentage when buying a $300 vs. $30 bottle of wine at a restaurant.
Sure it's illogical. The whole system is illogical and I don't recall reading one post in any tipping thread that argues otherwise. But it is also illogical to stiff people who are trying to earn a living.
Another thing to point out that I believe hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that higher end restaurants tend to operate differently than non high end restuarants. Usually open for dinner only, less seating, waiters have less tables to tend to allow more attention to the customers(mean less opportunity for tips), dinners tend to last longer at high end restuarants due to courses and ambiance(again allowing less opportunity for tips), etc. Edit: Also waiters have more food runners, bus boys etc which probably a portion of tips are shared as previously stated in the thread. You go to an Applebees, the waiter does most everything.

Regarding the tip amount 15% is the norm however it seems since the economy has been so good and many people are making good wages in thriving communities, 20% has become more a norm. But thats not to say in the rural midwest etc 15% still isnt the norm. I imagine a lot of the posters here live in big cities where this 20% tip has become the norm.
Last edited by N10sive on Wed May 23, 2018 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GCD
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by GCD » Wed May 23, 2018 3:16 pm

I agree that 20% seems to be something that arose in the last decade. It was always customary to tip 15% AFAIK up until ???. I blame those pay at the table machines at Chilis/Applebees/BWW/etc. that start you out at 20%.

student
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by student » Wed May 23, 2018 3:22 pm

GCD wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 3:16 pm
I agree that 20% seems to be something that arose in the last decade. It was always customary to tip 15% AFAIK up until ???. I blame those pay at the table machines at Chilis/Applebees/BWW/etc. that start you out at 20%.
You may find this article interesting. It mentioned the 20% default as you have stated. It also mentioned the worry that diners may actually be tipping less. https://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/sto ... /76990208/

Random Poster
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by Random Poster » Wed May 23, 2018 3:31 pm

deanbrew wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 2:32 pm
I left $50 as a tip for a recent meal (at a nice restaurant) for five people, which was 15 percent. Call me cheap, call me out of touch, call me whatever, but I am not feeling guilty about a $10 per person gratuity. Frankly, I don't think I got my money's worth at that amount, but I'll admit that social norms kept me from leaving less.
Along these lines, when the tip amount becomes equal to (or close to) the cost of another meal for a phantom eater at the table, I tend to think that the service had better be fantastic to be worth the tip.

As a complete aside, my wife went to a restaurant last week and tipped a little over 15%, but at an amount that was a odd number so as to allow the total bill to equal a flat number (i.e., tip $4.23 so that the total bill is $20---note that the numbers are made up).

Well, in reconciling the credit card billings to the actual receipt, I noticed that the restaurant (err...more likely, the waiter who received the odd-numbered tip) closed out the bill by $0.02, so that it/he ended up getting $4.25 and the charged amount became $20.02.

That irked me, so I instituted a charge back for the incorrect amount and got my $0.02 cents back. I've not decided whether to call the restaurant too, but neither my wife nor I will be visiting that place again.

WhatsUpButtercup
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by WhatsUpButtercup » Wed May 23, 2018 3:48 pm

Random Poster wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 3:31 pm
deanbrew wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 2:32 pm
I left $50 as a tip for a recent meal (at a nice restaurant) for five people, which was 15 percent. Call me cheap, call me out of touch, call me whatever, but I am not feeling guilty about a $10 per person gratuity. Frankly, I don't think I got my money's worth at that amount, but I'll admit that social norms kept me from leaving less.
Along these lines, when the tip amount becomes equal to (or close to) the cost of another meal for a phantom eater at the table, I tend to think that the service had better be fantastic to be worth the tip.

As a complete aside, my wife went to a restaurant last week and tipped a little over 15%, but at an amount that was a odd number so as to allow the total bill to equal a flat number (i.e., tip $4.23 so that the total bill is $20---note that the numbers are made up).

Well, in reconciling the credit card billings to the actual receipt, I noticed that the restaurant (err...more likely, the waiter who received the odd-numbered tip) closed out the bill by $0.02, so that it/he ended up getting $4.25 and the charged amount became $20.02.

That irked me, so I instituted a charge back for the incorrect amount and got my $0.02 cents back. I've not decided whether to call the restaurant too, but neither my wife nor I will be visiting that place again.
I can't fathom a reason for a server to change the tip to be an even 5 cents. I'd more likely assume they accidentally keyed the cents incorrectly or some other harmless mistake. Why would someone purposely risk their job for 2 pennies?

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KlingKlang
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by KlingKlang » Wed May 23, 2018 3:51 pm

Nearly A Moose wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 12:41 pm
Go to a really nice restaurant, tell the waiver what you think you'll want as an entree, and ask for a recommendation for an appetizer and bottle of wine to complement it correctly. He or she will be very familiar with the dishes and will be able to tailor the meal to your preferences.
This sounds like something that would occur in an alternate universe. It also honestly makes me afraid that I've never been to a really nice restaurant.

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deanbrew
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by deanbrew » Wed May 23, 2018 3:59 pm

WhatsUpButtercup wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 3:48 pm
I can't fathom a reason for a server to change the tip to be an even 5 cents. I'd more likely assume they accidentally keyed the cents incorrectly or some other harmless mistake. Why would someone purposely risk their job for 2 pennies?
I agree. I think this had to be a mistake somewhere along the line, either human or technological. Perhaps reading the digit wrong? I dunno, but I wouldn't change my dining choice over a 2 cent mistake or screwup.
"The course of history shows that as the government grows, liberty decreases." Thomas Jefferson

GCD
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by GCD » Wed May 23, 2018 5:14 pm

KlingKlang wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 3:51 pm
Nearly A Moose wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 12:41 pm
Go to a really nice restaurant, tell the waiver what you think you'll want as an entree, and ask for a recommendation for an appetizer and bottle of wine to complement it correctly. He or she will be very familiar with the dishes and will be able to tailor the meal to your preferences.
This sounds like something that would occur in an alternate universe. It also honestly makes me afraid that I've never been to a really nice restaurant.
And at a really nice restaurant they have a sommelier. His primary reason for existing is to pair wine to your food. Depending on the salary website you check, the sommelier median salary is $50Kish. They work with the chef to insure they have wine on hand that pairs with the food the chef intends to make and they train the waitstaff on how to pair it. Often they will come to your table to make recommendations. I'm sure his salary is worked into the price of the wine.

deanbrew wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 3:59 pm
WhatsUpButtercup wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 3:48 pm
I can't fathom a reason for a server to change the tip to be an even 5 cents. I'd more likely assume they accidentally keyed the cents incorrectly or some other harmless mistake. Why would someone purposely risk their job for 2 pennies?
I agree. I think this had to be a mistake somewhere along the line, either human or technological. Perhaps reading the digit wrong? I dunno, but I wouldn't change my dining choice over a 2 cent mistake or screwup.

I think the waiter didn't want to take home pennies at the end of the night. Seriously. Some people can be that way.

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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by jebmke » Wed May 23, 2018 5:41 pm

KlingKlang wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 3:51 pm
Nearly A Moose wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 12:41 pm
Go to a really nice restaurant, tell the waiver what you think you'll want as an entree, and ask for a recommendation for an appetizer and bottle of wine to complement it correctly. He or she will be very familiar with the dishes and will be able to tailor the meal to your preferences.
This sounds like something that would occur in an alternate universe. It also honestly makes me afraid that I've never been to a really nice restaurant.
More than once I have had excellent meals at restaurants that have no menu at all. A couple of my favorites are not in the US but one was fairly local. At the local one, we would stop in during the day and chat with the chef and she would ask us a few questions and then shop in the late afternoon to get the ingredients to make up our meals. Alas, she retired a while ago and closed.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by WhatsUpButtercup » Wed May 23, 2018 5:58 pm

GCD wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 5:14 pm

I think the waiter didn't want to take home pennies at the end of the night. Seriously. Some people can be that way.
But in order to assure that, the waiter would probably have needed to change the value of multiple checks in a night. A lot of people tip an uneven dollar amount so that their charge is an even number. Again, why would someone risk their job over those pennies? My husband runs restaurants. Changing card charges like that would get a server fired.

GCD
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by GCD » Wed May 23, 2018 6:13 pm

WhatsUpButtercup wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 5:58 pm
GCD wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 5:14 pm

I think the waiter didn't want to take home pennies at the end of the night. Seriously. Some people can be that way.
But in order to assure that, the waiter would probably have needed to change the value of multiple checks in a night. A lot of people tip an uneven dollar amount so that their charge is an even number. Again, why would someone risk their job over those pennies? My husband runs restaurants. Changing card charges like that would get a server fired.
So on getting fired... Back in the 1980s I was sitting around a waiting area and picked up a magazine of whatever the national association of loss prevention specialists is. An article in there said that a collection of studies had determined that in order to prevent employees from stealing from their employer it was necessary to pay them $18 dollars an hour. Under that and some great number of employees would just steal stuff thinking it was their "due". The article argued that it wasn't worth trying to buy loyalty, it was better to keep the employee at minimum wage and write off the losses from them stealing.

So adjust for inflation.

Based on that article alone (which I can't give a cite to) I decree that employees do stupid stuff.

But feel free to write me off. :D My life experiences have jaded me WRT the stupidity of the below average person. They do unfathomable things. I have an unusual worldview though and could well be wrong.

Back to the wine thread. Sorry for derail.

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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by roymeo » Wed May 23, 2018 7:12 pm

"I have terrible handwriting, but I know it was my waiter that controlled the entire transaction and the waiter probably took me for a couple cents."

After college I spent way too much time at a local restaurant. Enough that I knew the staff on every shift, and saw a lot of what happened. I learned that the cool waitress that knew the guy by name that introduced me to the place refused to deal with us regulars that sat talking too long and decreased her tip take for the day. She was also known for chasing customers out to the parking lot to ask why they didn't leave a tip/stiffed her. And the general manager said that those times when my credit card wasn't charged for the tip (pay at counter on way out, add tip there), the employee really got it, she just occasionally screwed up and hadn't run it through the system afterwards to charge me.
The sewer system is a form of welfare state. | -- "Libra", Don DeLillo

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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by golfCaddy » Wed May 23, 2018 8:38 pm

GCD wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 8:40 am
It seems like there are some people on here who have never eaten at a really nice restaurant or worked in the food service industry.

....

I don't mean to be confrontational, but I'm really befuddled. Do some of you really not recognize the superior service you are getting at a restaurant that serves multi-hundred $ bottles of wine over Olive Garden? If waitstaff pay tops out at Outback Steakhouse levels, nobody would ever bother to provide the high levels of service you get at a Michelin restaurant. To screw those people because the weight of the steak or bottle of wine they brought you is the same as what you had at Ponderosa is absurd.
I've never dined at a Michelin 3 star and probably never will. If you compare Ruth's Chris to Outback, the difference in decor, ambience, and food quality is obvious. However, I don't see much difference in the service. I tip 20% because it's the social convention, not because I view the service as somehow spectacular.

2m2037
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by 2m2037 » Tue May 29, 2018 5:01 pm

LFKB wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 11:39 pm
2m2037 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 3:34 pm
LFKB wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:48 pm
tim1999 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:46 pm
Some will call me cheap, but I tip $10 for wine regardless of the price of the bottle, maybe $20 if it's a real swanky place and my employer is paying. They don't put in any more work on a $400 bottle vs. a $40 one.
Why is it different for wine than food? Do they put in more work carrying out a $100 steak vs a $10 steak?

Also, their inventory/carrying cost is much higher on the $400 bottle.

Some people here are crazy cheap.
They do not; which is why I cannot understand why people base their tips on how much the food costs. It simply does not make sense. Should the Costco cashier who helps a customer with a $10 purchase be paid less than a cashier in the next lane who scans a $5,000 TV for another customer?
You don’t understand the difference? It’s because servers at high end restaurants are more skilled and require higher tips/pay, which attracts the talent there. It does not require more skill to scan a $10 purchase or a $5,000 TV at Costco.
I don't think we are talking about the same thing...

If you and I were seated next to each other in the same restaurant and being served by the same server; you ordered a $100 steak while mine costs $50; I'm saying it does not require more finesse bringing your steak to your table as opposed to bringing my steak to mine. :sharebeer

PhilosophyAndrew
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by PhilosophyAndrew » Tue May 29, 2018 5:50 pm

It isn’t like you are directly employing a laborer and paying for each act of labor he or she performs for you.

To me, the service charge is more like a luxury or privilege tax that folks pay for the the privilege of being waited on. From this perspective — which I know is just one of many one could adopt — it makes perfect sense that someone privileged enough to order a $100 steak should pay more for service than someone who orders more modestly. The same goes for wine.

For me, the bottom line is that it is an act of great privilege to order expensive wine and it a breach of etiquette/tact to begrudge the wait staff a tip on that purchase.

Andy.
Last edited by PhilosophyAndrew on Tue May 29, 2018 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by HornedToad » Tue May 29, 2018 5:55 pm

At nice restaurants I either bring a wine bottle(s) and pay the $15-45 corkage or only order a glass of wine. In both those scenarios I tip the 18-20%.

One of the reasons I'd never order expensive wine for dinner is both the markup and then principle of tipping on the markup. I went to a fancy steakhouse that had a lesser version of the wine I brought in for corkage for ~$220 + ~$45 tip whereas I paid $60+ $20 corkage. The difference of $40 tip on bringing my own wine vs. ordering from restaurant is crazy, but that's the irrational world we live in.

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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by deanbrew » Tue May 29, 2018 6:36 pm

Regarding the corkage fee: does none of it go to the server? I find it astounding that a diner should pay a sizable corkage fee plus a tip. It seems to me that if a corkage fee is charged, a healthy portion should go to the server. I go to a BYOB restaurant, and bring our own wine, but they don't charge a corkage fee. I am glad to open and pour my own wine.

I read an interesting article over the weekend indicating restaurants are having trouble in cities and states which are raising wages for servers. If servers make $10 or more an hour plus tips, they make so much more than kitchen workers it is causing strife among staff, as well as a financial squeeze for owners. For those who live (or work in restaurants) in locations with "high" (not below minimum wage) server wages, do you tip less because of that?
"The course of history shows that as the government grows, liberty decreases." Thomas Jefferson

student
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by student » Tue May 29, 2018 6:44 pm

deanbrew wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 6:36 pm
I read an interesting article over the weekend indicating restaurants are having trouble in cities and states which are raising wages for servers. If servers make $10 or more an hour plus tips, they make so much more than kitchen workers it is causing strife among staff, as well as a financial squeeze for owners. For those who live (or work in restaurants) in locations with "high" (not below minimum wage) server wages, do you tip less because of that?
I was vacationing in such an area a few years ago. I planned to pay less due to the higher wages but could not do it since I am conditioned to tip 15%-20%.

N10sive
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by N10sive » Tue May 29, 2018 6:52 pm

deanbrew wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 6:36 pm
I read an interesting article over the weekend indicating restaurants are having trouble in cities and states which are raising wages for servers. If servers make $10 or more an hour plus tips, they make so much more than kitchen workers it is causing strife among staff, as well as a financial squeeze for owners. For those who live (or work in restaurants) in locations with "high" (not below minimum wage) server wages, do you tip less because of that?
I mentioned this earlier. In Seattle the passing of the $15 minimum wage law required by 2021 has influenced restaurants(may also be because of other laws passed as well) to have a mandatory 20% service charge on top of the bill. Not all restaurants are doing this but many that are popular have been. They note this on the menu and many places I've frequented have told me up front. Depending on the place I tip or just pay the 20%. Usually it is denoted that the 20% is shared among staff i.e waiters and cooks etc. Now I do wonder how much above the 20% actually goes to the waiter.

Which led me to mention that perhaps this will start to change the tipping structure. If all the restaurants start charging 20% service fees why not just pay the servers a living wage and then charge more for the food dishes etc. There are obviously other things to take into account. Id rather pay a fixed charge for a dish and not have to tip than the latter.

2m2037
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by 2m2037 » Tue May 29, 2018 6:54 pm

deanbrew wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 6:36 pm
Regarding the corkage fee: does none of it go to the server? I find it astounding that a diner should pay a sizable corkage fee plus a tip. It seems to me that if a corkage fee is charged, a healthy portion should go to the server. I go to a BYOB restaurant, and bring our own wine, but they don't charge a corkage fee. I am glad to open and pour my own wine.

I read an interesting article over the weekend indicating restaurants are having trouble in cities and states which are raising wages for servers. If servers make $10 or more an hour plus tips, they make so much more than kitchen workers it is causing strife among staff, as well as a financial squeeze for owners. For those who live (or work in restaurants) in locations with "high" (not below minimum wage) server wages, do you tip less because of that?
I do not research what the restaurant I choose to go to for dinner pays their servers. I figure that if the servers are unhappy at their place of work for whatever reason, be it job conditions or remuneration, they are free to go elsewhere.

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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by shawndoggy » Tue May 29, 2018 7:33 pm

Random Poster wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 3:31 pm
That irked me, so I instituted a charge back for the incorrect amount and got my $0.02 cents back.
I call this the Superman III effect. Like we all think that if someone screws us out of 2 cents enough, they're getting rich off of our indifference. I'm sure if I were a waiter looking to get rich (and not have to handle pennies, ewww!), that would be the plan I would institute.

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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by gpburdell » Wed May 30, 2018 1:35 am

Darth Xanadu wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 3:04 pm
If I'm at a sports bar or similar, having a burger and a couple beers, I'll generally tip 20% - 40%.
+1

Generally I tip 20% for adequate to good service or more for great service. However, when I go somewhere to watch a game, I'm usually staying there for 3-4 hours. I'm probably not drinking/eating that entire time, but the waitress would be refilling drinks, etc. To me, tipping only 20% is not right when you've held the table for that long. Every situation is different, but as a general rule of thumb I'll tip $5/hr that I'm there past that first hour. This is assuming I'm staying that long because of a game or event and not because the service/kitchen is very slow.

For example, my group generally goes to Hooters to watch football, basketball, etc. I don't always drink alcohol when I'm out. So my bill might be less than $20 for 3 hours of service. Tipping 20% would only be $4. I wouldn't hesitate to tip $15 or even $20 for really great service. That's just me as I appreciate good service and don't mind tipping more for it especially at places that I frequent often. Trust me, if you're a regular somewhere the wait staff will remember if you're a good tipper or not and service will be adjusted accordingly.

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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by ddurrett896 » Wed May 30, 2018 8:52 am

N10sive wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 6:52 pm
I mentioned this earlier. In Seattle the passing of the $15 minimum wage law required by 2021 has influenced restaurants(may also be because of other laws passed as well) to have a mandatory 20% service charge on top of the bill.
Was just in Miami and most places we ate included this. I wasn't surprised because the service was HORRIBLE everywhere we ate. I guess when it's a given there is no incentive to earn it. Honestly can't believe how bad it was - even at high end restaurants!

2m2037
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by 2m2037 » Thu May 31, 2018 6:30 pm

shawndoggy wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 7:33 pm
Random Poster wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 3:31 pm
That irked me, so I instituted a charge back for the incorrect amount and got my $0.02 cents back.
I call this the Superman III effect. Like we all think that if someone screws us out of 2 cents enough, they're getting rich off of our indifference. I'm sure if I were a waiter looking to get rich (and not have to handle pennies, ewww!), that would be the plan I would institute.
It's not about the waiter trying to get rich; it's about the unethical action of editing an amount on the charge slip.

student
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by student » Thu May 31, 2018 6:33 pm

2m2037 wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 6:30 pm
shawndoggy wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 7:33 pm
Random Poster wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 3:31 pm
That irked me, so I instituted a charge back for the incorrect amount and got my $0.02 cents back.
I call this the Superman III effect. Like we all think that if someone screws us out of 2 cents enough, they're getting rich off of our indifference. I'm sure if I were a waiter looking to get rich (and not have to handle pennies, ewww!), that would be the plan I would institute.
It's not about the waiter trying to get rich; it's about the unethical action of editing an amount on the charge slip.
Maybe I am wrong, I thought shawndoggy's post was meant to convey that it was something innocent such as a mistake in keying in the numbers rather than a deliberate and unethical act.

2m2037
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by 2m2037 » Thu May 31, 2018 6:46 pm

gpburdell wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 1:35 am
Darth Xanadu wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 3:04 pm
If I'm at a sports bar or similar, having a burger and a couple beers, I'll generally tip 20% - 40%.
+1

Generally I tip 20% for adequate to good service or more for great service. However, when I go somewhere to watch a game, I'm usually staying there for 3-4 hours. I'm probably not drinking/eating that entire time, but the waitress would be refilling drinks, etc. To me, tipping only 20% is not right when you've held the table for that long. Every situation is different, but as a general rule of thumb I'll tip $5/hr that I'm there past that first hour. This is assuming I'm staying that long because of a game or event and not because the service/kitchen is very slow.

For example, my group generally goes to Hooters to watch football, basketball, etc. I don't always drink alcohol when I'm out. So my bill might be less than $20 for 3 hours of service. Tipping 20% would only be $4. I wouldn't hesitate to tip $15 or even $20 for really great service. That's just me as I appreciate good service and don't mind tipping more for it especially at places that I frequent often. Trust me, if you're a regular somewhere the wait staff will remember if you're a good tipper or not and service will be adjusted accordingly.
Let me present an alternative point of view.

Assume 90% of a sports bar's patrons occupy tables for 3 hours on end, and only leave a 15% tip every time. If the waitstaff are unable to maintain the lifestyle they want to live on that level of income, they could look for an alternative source of income, this being a free country and all. Are waitstaff incapable of getting fed up of these situations and switching jobs or moving to a different bar/restaurant, or are they forever condemned to work in the same location?

Alternatively, the management of the sports bar could pay the waitstaff a higher hourly rate. Why is no pressure put on employers to pay a higher wage? You say wait staff will remember customers who leave good tips, will they not also be equally grateful to an employer who pays a terrific hourly rate?

Why is the hate/spotlight/pressure always put on patrons to either tip more or go someplace else?

:confused

PhilosophyAndrew
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Re: how do you tip on wine at a restaurant

Post by PhilosophyAndrew » Thu May 31, 2018 7:21 pm

2m2037 wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 6:46 pm
gpburdell wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 1:35 am
Darth Xanadu wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 3:04 pm
If I'm at a sports bar or similar, having a burger and a couple beers, I'll generally tip 20% - 40%.
+1

Generally I tip 20% for adequate to good service or more for great service. However, when I go somewhere to watch a game, I'm usually staying there for 3-4 hours. I'm probably not drinking/eating that entire time, but the waitress would be refilling drinks, etc. To me, tipping only 20% is not right when you've held the table for that long. Every situation is different, but as a general rule of thumb I'll tip $5/hr that I'm there past that first hour. This is assuming I'm staying that long because of a game or event and not because the service/kitchen is very slow.

For example, my group generally goes to Hooters to watch football, basketball, etc. I don't always drink alcohol when I'm out. So my bill might be less than $20 for 3 hours of service. Tipping 20% would only be $4. I wouldn't hesitate to tip $15 or even $20 for really great service. That's just me as I appreciate good service and don't mind tipping more for it especially at places that I frequent often. Trust me, if you're a regular somewhere the wait staff will remember if you're a good tipper or not and service will be adjusted accordingly.
Let me present an alternative point of view.

Assume 90% of a sports bar's patrons occupy tables for 3 hours on end, and only leave a 15% tip every time. If the waitstaff are unable to maintain the lifestyle they want to live on that level of income, they could look for an alternative source of income, this being a free country and all. Are waitstaff incapable of getting fed up of these situations and switching jobs or moving to a different bar/restaurant, or are they forever condemned to work in the same location?

Alternatively, the management of the sports bar could pay the waitstaff a higher hourly rate. Why is no pressure put on employers to pay a higher wage? You say wait staff will remember customers who leave good tips, will they not also be equally grateful to an employer who pays a terrific hourly rate?

Why is the hate/spotlight/pressure always put on patrons to either tip more or go someplace else?

:confused
Excellent points — activism supporting greater economic opportunity/mobility and social justice/pay improvements could possibly change the world for the better. Until those changes occur, however, privileged members of our society who choose to purchase expensive wine at restaurants but who decline to tip well on that purchase end up disadvantaging waitstaff who are likely much less advantaged than the people they serve the wine to.

So, the established social norms about tipping may feel burdensome to some purchasers of expensive restaurant wine, but even then I think the interests of those receiving tips for providing service should be taken into consideration. Those interests are one reasons why it may be rational to tip even though the tipping norms themselves are irrational.

The sports is different from the higher-end restaurant because those workers may have lesser skills and experience and so have less economic mobility than their peers at high-end restaurants. I think it is eminently reasonable to tip generously when occcupying a table at a sports bar for several hours. Here too any sense of burden the sportsbar patron feels is probably outweighed by the interests of the low-wage workers his or her tips support.


Andy.

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