Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

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rkhusky
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by rkhusky » Thu May 03, 2018 3:27 pm

DaftInvestor wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 8:38 pm
rkhusky wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 7:56 pm
Similar to comparing two funds, one with an ER of 0.05% and the other with 0.04%. The latter must be the obvious choice, the ER is 20% lower after all.
A better analogy would be to compare two funds knowing that one is 20% more likely to lose money over the other. You can hope to beat the odds and pick the statistical loser.
And if the expected loss is $10 or $100, does the 20% more likely factor matter that much for something that costs $20K?

btenny
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by btenny » Thu May 03, 2018 4:54 pm

Deikel.... You really do not understand much about people or why people really really like Jeeps. They are not a boring to drive nor look exactly like most other cars on the road.

Jeep Wranglers are just FUN to drive and ride in with the doors off and out in the country or down the street or out for evening cruise.... That fun factor is the simple answer to why they have great resale values. Oh yea they can be and are customized to fit the owners desires. This customizing makes each Wrangler different and unique. Mine is green and yours is blue and hers is pink makes all our Jeeps fit us, not some car designer in Japan.......

And the JGC is sort of like a big brother to the Wrangler. People buy them because they LIKE the vehicle. The JGC just does lots of things well that other SUVs cannot do at all. A JGC can tow a big trailer or boat that weighs up to 6500 pounds. That funny little Toyota will tow 3000 pounds. Or how about hauling the kids out for a day of fishing and take the back trails. No problem with the JGC but forget it in that Honda. Or go off roading for fun on the way back from fishing. Stock JGC can go on the toughest trails. They can also go through BIG snow with ease. And they have nice plush interiors and good looks and easy to use electronics. And yes all that functionality comes with a reliability penalty. But most of us are happy since all those features also comes for low cost......

Enjoy and Good Luck.

Stonebr
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by Stonebr » Thu May 03, 2018 4:59 pm

I never used to pay much attention to reliability reports. Then I found myself with a couple of Toyota products. Sheesh! was I wrong. I would never go back to vehicles that don't get top reliability ratings.

Life is so much simpler now! :happy
"have more than thou showest, | speak less than thou knowest" -- The Fool in King Lear

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munemaker
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by munemaker » Thu May 03, 2018 5:07 pm

Stonebr wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 4:59 pm
I never used to pay much attention to reliability reports. Then I found myself with a couple of Toyota products. Sheesh! was I wrong. I would never go back to vehicles that don't get top reliability ratings.

Life is so much simpler now! :happy
That's my story too. Years ago I used to buy GM products. I had the usual problems and told myself...it is normal to have these problems, or I am just unlucky. Then I bought a Honda Civic Si for commuting to work and woke up to the difference, and it is truly an incredible difference.

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munemaker
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by munemaker » Thu May 03, 2018 5:09 pm

btenny wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 4:54 pm

And the JGC is sort of like a big brother to the Wrangler. People buy them because they LIKE the vehicle. The JGC just does lots of things well that other SUVs cannot do at all. A JGC can tow a big trailer or boat that weighs up to 6500 pounds. That funny little Toyota will tow 3000 pounds. Or how about hauling the kids out for a day of fishing and take the back trails. No problem with the JGC but forget it in that Honda. Or go off roading for fun on the way back from fishing. Stock JGC can go on the toughest trails. They can also go through BIG snow with ease. And they have nice plush interiors and good looks and easy to use electronics. And yes all that functionality comes with a reliability penalty. But most of us are happy since all those features also comes for low cost......
Wouldn't a 4 Runner do all these things, and you would still end up with a nice reliable SUV?

hyperpigment26
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by hyperpigment26 » Thu May 03, 2018 5:12 pm

You can check a site like https://www.carcomplaints.com/ to see where your potential vehicle stands. I actually had a 2011 JGC and can confirm it was one of the worst vehicles. Constant recalls and always something wrong with it. The one bright side was the service department at the dealer. Really nice people.

dbr
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by dbr » Thu May 03, 2018 5:36 pm

In my opinion if the Jeep is in a list and you are comparing, then yes the rankings should eliminate the Jeep. On the other hand, if you want a Jeep, buy it.

Bacchus01
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by Bacchus01 » Thu May 03, 2018 6:59 pm

munemaker wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 5:09 pm
btenny wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 4:54 pm

And the JGC is sort of like a big brother to the Wrangler. People buy them because they LIKE the vehicle. The JGC just does lots of things well that other SUVs cannot do at all. A JGC can tow a big trailer or boat that weighs up to 6500 pounds. That funny little Toyota will tow 3000 pounds. Or how about hauling the kids out for a day of fishing and take the back trails. No problem with the JGC but forget it in that Honda. Or go off roading for fun on the way back from fishing. Stock JGC can go on the toughest trails. They can also go through BIG snow with ease. And they have nice plush interiors and good looks and easy to use electronics. And yes all that functionality comes with a reliability penalty. But most of us are happy since all those features also comes for low cost......
Wouldn't a 4 Runner do all these things, and you would still end up with a nice reliable SUV?
No, actually it doesn’t. It tows 20% less, has 20% worse fuel economy, less leg room and costs 10-15% more.

btenny
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by btenny » Thu May 03, 2018 7:32 pm

The 4Runner has a harsh ride. It has low quality interior fabrics and surfaces. Lots of plastic. It tows way less. It is reliable. It is good in snow and dirt and off road.

Wakefield1
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by Wakefield1 » Thu May 03, 2018 7:58 pm

The rare version of Grand Cherokee-I think in the mid 1990's- that had the 360 engine instead of the six or 318-is it a collector car now?
Was the Grand Cherokee version of the 1990's the most capable offroad of all of the "luxury" SUVs ? (Not counting the Humvee)
my 2004 GC hasn't had any major problems except for the infamous heater blend door defect which caused me to perform amateur surgery through the back of the glove compartment area using the "HeaterTreater" replacement blend door kit (cruise control system doesn't work anymore)
It does have a big appetite for 89 octane gasoline but a neighbor's same year G.C. with the Six and a basic part time 4 wheel drive system instead of "Quadratrac II" seemed to get good gas mileage
Last edited by Wakefield1 on Thu May 03, 2018 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bottlecap
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by bottlecap » Thu May 03, 2018 8:06 pm

Jeep would be out for me. I like some of their vehicles, but their reputation for (un)reliability scares me away.

And I am presently on a 1,200 mile business trip with my 18 year old Ford. So I don’t scare easy.

JT

racy
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by racy » Thu May 03, 2018 8:08 pm

We've owned 3 Jeeps over the years when we were younger. And, yes, the poor ratings ARE warranted.
In the past 10 years or so we've owned Toyotas, Lexus and Hondas ... and, yes, the superior ratings ARE warranted (in my experience).
Last edited by racy on Thu May 03, 2018 8:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Wakefield1
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by Wakefield1 » Thu May 03, 2018 8:09 pm

bottlecap wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 8:06 pm
Jeep would be out for me. I like some of their vehicles, but their reputation for (un)reliability scares me away.

And I am presently on a 1,200 mile business trip with my 18 year old Ford. So I don’t scare easy.

JT
I wish Daimler/Mercedes had remained as the owner of Chrysler/Jeep.

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fortfun
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by fortfun » Thu May 03, 2018 8:16 pm

Stonebr wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 4:59 pm
I never used to pay much attention to reliability reports. Then I found myself with a couple of Toyota products. Sheesh! was I wrong. I would never go back to vehicles that don't get top reliability ratings.

Life is so much simpler now! :happy
+2

rkhusky
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by rkhusky » Thu May 03, 2018 9:17 pm

bottlecap wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 8:06 pm
And I am presently on a 1,200 mile business trip with my 18 year old Ford. So I don’t scare easy.
We had 220,000 miles on our 13 year old Ford Windstar, with no problems, but the wife wanted a newer vehicle and, so far, the Dodge has been good.

RabbMD
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by RabbMD » Thu May 03, 2018 10:12 pm

ncbill wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 8:42 am
denovo wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 4:36 am
RabbMD wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 9:04 pm
Do what i did... buy a lifetime warranty for around $2700 from one of the big three jeep dealers that sell the mopar warrantys online. I paid around $2700 for a true lifetime unlimited mile warranty. See the jeep garage site for more details. Ive only owned Toyotas and hondas before, and they have been plagued with problems.... 5,000 miles in my jeep is perfect. You can get the lifetime on a used one as long as it’s still under factory warranty 3/36. It costs a bit more after 1 year and 12,000 miles than new.
Lifetime warranty? Link please.
https://www.chryslerwarrantys.com

Based on what I've read on Pacifica forums, $2700 for the lifetime sounds right, but IIRC that's with a $100 deductible.

http://www.pacificaforums.com/forum/433 ... post353754
Yes that is for the $100 deductible plan. I meant to write that but obviously forgot it. The $0 deductible plan is much more expensive $4500ish iirc. The $100 is per visit, so if you have 7 problems they are all covered for $100 if they are brought up for the same visit. It includes rentals for repairs and towing for 7 years. It is even transferrable if you buy it in North Carolina or Florida. Florida prices are regulated by the state insurance commission and much higher. My wife’s Honda Odyssey needed s complete engine rebuild st 34,000 miles, I had a Toyota Celica literally ctach on fire at 38,000 miles. Any car is variable in its reliability, i plan on keeping my jeep till they pry it out of my hand my paying kbb value when a repair exceeds the cars value (which is how the warranty actually ends ie nit truly lifetime).

JuniorBH
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by JuniorBH » Fri May 04, 2018 8:33 am

My wife current has a 2015 GC limited on lease which has been completely trouble free (though we only have 15K mile on it). I previously had a 2014 GC SRT for a year and that was also trouble free (though the SRT is a very different car than the limited).

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munemaker
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by munemaker » Fri May 04, 2018 9:09 am

Bacchus01 wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 6:59 pm
munemaker wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 5:09 pm
btenny wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 4:54 pm

And the JGC is sort of like a big brother to the Wrangler. People buy them because they LIKE the vehicle. The JGC just does lots of things well that other SUVs cannot do at all. A JGC can tow a big trailer or boat that weighs up to 6500 pounds. That funny little Toyota will tow 3000 pounds. Or how about hauling the kids out for a day of fishing and take the back trails. No problem with the JGC but forget it in that Honda. Or go off roading for fun on the way back from fishing. Stock JGC can go on the toughest trails. They can also go through BIG snow with ease. And they have nice plush interiors and good looks and easy to use electronics. And yes all that functionality comes with a reliability penalty. But most of us are happy since all those features also comes for low cost......
Wouldn't a 4 Runner do all these things, and you would still end up with a nice reliable SUV?
No, actually it doesn’t. It tows 20% less, has 20% worse fuel economy, less leg room and costs 10-15% more.
I wonder how many JGC owners actually do these things? I know two people who own them...both women who use for their daily commute. No towing, no off-roading.

blevine
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by blevine » Fri May 04, 2018 9:56 am

Why not lease for 3 years and return it when the warranty is done ?

There are cars that are nice to buy and drive but not own.
And there are cars that are smart/reliable to own.
If you must have the nice to drive, protect yourself and have an out.

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by DaftInvestor » Fri May 04, 2018 11:24 am

rkhusky wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 3:27 pm
DaftInvestor wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 8:38 pm
rkhusky wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 7:56 pm
Similar to comparing two funds, one with an ER of 0.05% and the other with 0.04%. The latter must be the obvious choice, the ER is 20% lower after all.
A better analogy would be to compare two funds knowing that one is 20% more likely to lose money over the other. You can hope to beat the odds and pick the statistical loser.
And if the expected loss is $10 or $100, does the 20% more likely factor matter that much for something that costs $20K?
The loss I pay to avoid is time. I don't want to be coming back from a business trip and having my car not start at the airport while exhausted after a long week. Last time I did a price compare I was only looking at $4K (comparing price-out-door; not list). Yes - its worth $4K to me to know that my chances of having the car breakdown or not start over a 10 year period to be drastically reduced. Yes - I'm sure there are JGC owners who have never had problems - but - if you are buying a JGC you should do so knowing that you will statistically be more inclined to having problems as compared to other brands. Everyone needs to factor in how important reliability is to them. After a few bad experiences - it is very important to me.

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by DaftInvestor » Fri May 04, 2018 11:38 am

It makes sense to me that a lot of Bogleheads value reliability in their vehicles.

Average-Joe: I'm going to choose 5 stocks that are cool like Uncle-John. He seemed to do pretty well at it.
Boglehead: I'm not going to try to beat the odds - I know that stock-picking can be a fools errand and statistically I will have a much better chance of success with indexing.

Average-Joe: I'm going to buy the JGC - its cool. Uncle John never had a problem with his.
Boglehead: I'm not going to try to beat the odds - I know that if I go with the JGC statistically I will have problems. Much better chance of no problems with a higher reliability brand.

rkhusky
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by rkhusky » Fri May 04, 2018 12:12 pm

DaftInvestor wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 11:24 am
The loss I pay to avoid is time. I don't want to be coming back from a business trip and having my car not start at the airport while exhausted after a long week. Last time I did a price compare I was only looking at $4K (comparing price-out-door; not list). Yes - its worth $4K to me to know that my chances of having the car breakdown or not start over a 10 year period to be drastically reduced. Yes - I'm sure there are JGC owners who have never had problems - but - if you are buying a JGC you should do so knowing that you will statistically be more inclined to having problems as compared to other brands. Everyone needs to factor in how important reliability is to them. After a few bad experiences - it is very important to me.
Odds of a breakdown are not drastically reduced, more likely a 1 or 2% reduction, e.g. something like 97% vs. 98%. Is that worth an additional $4K? For some people, yes, for other people, no. And some people will pay $200K for a car, even though it has very poor reliability, because they care more about performance and looks.

Edit: The odds of a breakdown for something other than old battery, flat tires, out of gas, lost key, or accident are probably a lot lower for modern vehicles.

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by DaftInvestor » Fri May 04, 2018 12:29 pm

rkhusky wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 12:12 pm
DaftInvestor wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 11:24 am
The loss I pay to avoid is time. I don't want to be coming back from a business trip and having my car not start at the airport while exhausted after a long week. Last time I did a price compare I was only looking at $4K (comparing price-out-door; not list). Yes - its worth $4K to me to know that my chances of having the car breakdown or not start over a 10 year period to be drastically reduced. Yes - I'm sure there are JGC owners who have never had problems - but - if you are buying a JGC you should do so knowing that you will statistically be more inclined to having problems as compared to other brands. Everyone needs to factor in how important reliability is to them. After a few bad experiences - it is very important to me.
Odds of a breakdown are not drastically reduced, more likely a 1 or 2% reduction, e.g. something like 97% vs. 98%. Is that worth an additional $4K? For some people, yes, for other people, no. And some people will pay $200K for a car, even though it has very poor reliability, because they care more about performance and looks.

Its not just breakdown - its also hours lost to having to bring the car to the shop due to issues (I only want to go for regular maintenance).
Regarding 1 to 2% reduction -That's not my understanding from my reading of Consumer Reports and other sources for a poor-reliability rated vehicle. Do you have a source for this 1 to 2%?
It might be a good point for the OP if a POOR rating means only a 1 to 2% difference.
Yes - some people don't care about reliability at all and rank their choice based upon other factors - but many of us do. OP was asking specifically how important people thought reliability is - for me - it is a top factor.

Travel1013
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by Travel1013 » Fri May 04, 2018 12:43 pm

You can research this to infinity but if spouse has her heart set on a JGC...
Happy wife... :happy

rkhusky
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by rkhusky » Fri May 04, 2018 6:56 pm

DaftInvestor wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 12:29 pm
Regarding 1 to 2% reduction -That's not my understanding from my reading of Consumer Reports and other sources for a poor-reliability rated vehicle. Do you have a source for this 1 to 2%?
No source for the 1 to 2%. It's just my feeling that breakdowns due to vehicle design or defects are rare, based on having driven over 500K miles in the last 20 years without a breakdown, other than for flat tires or old batteries. And hearing similar things from family and friends. Also, the fact that so many companies offer 100K-mile power-train warranties indicates that major mechanical issues are rare.
AAA tracks breakdowns and the majority are not brand/model specific:
Battery failures, flat tires and keys locked inside the vehicle remain the top roadside assistance requests.
https://newsroom.aaa.com/2016/07/despit ... cord-high/

I also recall reading that the majority of new car complaints stem from things like problems with the entertainment center and other minor but annoying things.

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fortfun
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by fortfun » Fri May 04, 2018 7:09 pm

These are the cars people keep for 15 years.
https://jalopnik.com/these-are-the-cars ... 1821914343

And a million mile Toyota Tundra
https://jalopnik.com/heres-what-a-toyot ... 1776141464

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munemaker
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by munemaker » Sat May 05, 2018 2:45 pm

DaftInvestor wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 11:38 am
It makes sense to me that a lot of Bogleheads value reliability in their vehicles.

Average-Joe: I'm going to choose 5 stocks that are cool like Uncle-John. He seemed to do pretty well at it.
Boglehead: I'm not going to try to beat the odds - I know that stock-picking can be a fools errand and statistically I will have a much better chance of success with indexing.

Average-Joe: I'm going to buy the JGC - its cool. Uncle John never had a problem with his.
Boglehead: I'm not going to try to beat the odds - I know that if I go with the JGC statistically I will have problems. Much better chance of no problems with a higher reliability brand.
+1 Good analogy. Very well stated!

Wakefield1
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by Wakefield1 » Sat May 05, 2018 2:56 pm

Travel1013 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 12:43 pm
You can research this to infinity but if spouse has her heart set on a JGC...
Happy wife... :happy
Has her heart set on an SRT ?

Bacchus01
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by Bacchus01 » Sun May 06, 2018 8:37 am

Wakefield1 wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 2:56 pm
Travel1013 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 12:43 pm
You can research this to infinity but if spouse has her heart set on a JGC...
Happy wife... :happy
Has her heart set on an SRT ?
Or Trackhawk

mountain-lion
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by mountain-lion » Sun May 06, 2018 11:05 am

DaftInvestor wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 11:38 am
It makes sense to me that a lot of Bogleheads value reliability in their vehicles.

Average-Joe: I'm going to choose 5 stocks that are cool like Uncle-John. He seemed to do pretty well at it.
Boglehead: I'm not going to try to beat the odds - I know that stock-picking can be a fools errand and statistically I will have a much better chance of success with indexing.

Average-Joe: I'm going to buy the JGC - its cool. Uncle John never had a problem with his.
Boglehead: I'm not going to try to beat the odds - I know that if I go with the JGC statistically I will have problems. Much better chance of no problems with a higher reliability brand.
This is a good analogy, but it misses some points:

Automotive reliability has changed over time in a dramatically good way.

Jeeps built today are likely to have about as many problems as a Honda built ten years ago. If ten years ago, you didn't also say "I know that if I go with the Accord, I will have problems", then you are being inconsistent with your standard of reliability.

When evaluating the utility of a car, there are many more dimensions than there is with an investment. An investment basically comes down to risk vs return over time, but a car's utility is measured in many dimensions. As transportation, as fun, as prestige, as art, as pleasure, as a financial decision. All of these have to be traded off against the others.

In reliability, yes, you can do better than the JGC today. No question, and if reliability is your only concern, then the Jeep should be out. But if reliability is your only concern, you should be going with a Lexus es330. The fact that the "boglehead" car isn't a Lexus shows that even the bogleheads agree that reliability doesn't trump all else. (Unlike expense ratios, which trump basically everything.)

randomguy
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by randomguy » Sun May 06, 2018 7:17 pm

rkhusky wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 6:56 pm
DaftInvestor wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 12:29 pm
Regarding 1 to 2% reduction -That's not my understanding from my reading of Consumer Reports and other sources for a poor-reliability rated vehicle. Do you have a source for this 1 to 2%?
No source for the 1 to 2%. It's just my feeling that breakdowns due to vehicle design or defects are rare, based on having driven over 500K miles in the last 20 years without a breakdown, other than for flat tires or old batteries. And hearing similar things from family and friends. Also, the fact that so many companies offer 100K-mile power-train warranties indicates that major mechanical issues are rare.
AAA tracks breakdowns and the majority are not brand/model specific:
Battery failures, flat tires and keys locked inside the vehicle remain the top roadside assistance requests.
https://newsroom.aaa.com/2016/07/despit ... cord-high/

I also recall reading that the majority of new car complaints stem from things like problems with the entertainment center and other minor but annoying things.
Reliability is more than breakdowns. It is also going to the dealer for a rough shifting car and learning that you need a 2k repair. Or a oil leak that is staining your driveway. Or having a poor window break with the window down.

At a high level the numbers I have seen are more like 3% versus 15% for these type of repairs. Still rare so you will see a lot of no problem ownership experiences. Exception for things like early 00s Audi/VW that had ignition coil defects. But a lot of that is from non apples to apples comparision. It would be awesome to see the average repair costs and days in shop for a car model over 15 years, but those numbers aren't out there.

And yeah the fact that some surveys count Bluetooth waiting/rattles the same as engine failure makes the numbers questionable😁

randomguy
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by randomguy » Sun May 06, 2018 7:21 pm

mountain-lion wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 11:05 am

In reliability, yes, you can do better than the JGC today. No question, and if reliability is your only concern, then the Jeep should be out. But if reliability is your only concern, you should be going with a Lexus es330. The fact that the "boglehead" car isn't a Lexus shows that even the bogleheads agree that reliability doesn't trump all else. (Unlike expense ratios, which trump basically everything.)
A lot of boggeheads buy Lexus. Reality there is no such thing as a boglehead car. A Civic is no more or less a boglehead car than a Lexus. A 15 year old Civic is no more or less than a new BMW. There is nothing in boggeheads about living as cheapily as possible. There are other religions for that

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munemaker
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by munemaker » Sun May 06, 2018 8:01 pm

randomguy wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 7:21 pm

A lot of boggeheads buy Lexus. Reality there is no such thing as a boglehead car.
Just from observation, it seems most Bogleheads favor Toyota, Lexus, Honda and Subaru (not necessarily in that order). So there may not be a Boglehead car, but these come close to being the Boglehead brands. They are all higher reliability and are Japanese names.

randomguy
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by randomguy » Sun May 06, 2018 10:29 pm

munemaker wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:01 pm
randomguy wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 7:21 pm

A lot of boggeheads buy Lexus. Reality there is no such thing as a boglehead car.
Just from observation, it seems most Bogleheads favor Toyota, Lexus, Honda and Subaru (not necessarily in that order). So there may not be a Boglehead car, but these come close to being the Boglehead brands. They are all higher reliability and are Japanese names.
Just from oobservation, it seems like a lot of bogleheads(relative to the general population) also own Porsches and BMWs. Those brands are not exactly know as cheap to maintain or overally reliable.

They are though that moderately rich people (2-10 million) buy that enjoy driving buy.

Look at the bogleheads tenets and figure out which ones apply to cars. The answer is pretty much none. Same could be said about pretty much any consumer good.

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munemaker
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by munemaker » Mon May 07, 2018 5:53 am

randomguy wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 10:29 pm

Just from oobservation, it seems like a lot of bogleheads(relative to the general population) also own Porsches and BMWs. Those brands are not exactly know as cheap to maintain or overally reliable.
It seems to me that Boglehead BMW and Porsche owners are in the minority. Too bad we don't have polls anymore. Then we would know for sure.

Bacchus01
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by Bacchus01 » Mon May 07, 2018 5:56 am

munemaker wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:01 pm
randomguy wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 7:21 pm

A lot of boggeheads buy Lexus. Reality there is no such thing as a boglehead car.
Just from observation, it seems most Bogleheads favor Toyota, Lexus, Honda and Subaru (not necessarily in that order). So there may not be a Boglehead car, but these come close to being the Boglehead brands. They are all higher reliability and are Japanese names.
Interesting observations.

Without a factual poll, I would have immediately said that Subaru was the Boglehead car. It seems to come up first and is often the most recommended brand when there is ever a question about vehicles here. Toyota and Honda come up, and sure there are Lexus and BMW, etc, but Subaru honestly gets shoved harder here than any other brand. At least that is my perception. It may not be unwarranted, but it is prevalent.

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munemaker
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by munemaker » Mon May 07, 2018 6:02 am

Bacchus01 wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 5:56 am
munemaker wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:01 pm
randomguy wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 7:21 pm

A lot of boggeheads buy Lexus. Reality there is no such thing as a boglehead car.
Just from observation, it seems most Bogleheads favor Toyota, Lexus, Honda and Subaru (not necessarily in that order). So there may not be a Boglehead car, but these come close to being the Boglehead brands. They are all higher reliability and are Japanese names.
Interesting observations.

Without a factual poll, I would have immediately said that Subaru was the Boglehead car. It seems to come up first and is often the most recommended brand when there is ever a question about vehicles here. Toyota and Honda come up, and sure there are Lexus and BMW, etc, but Subaru honestly gets shoved harder here than any other brand. At least that is my perception. It may not be unwarranted, but it is prevalent.
"Subaru - The unofficial car of the Bogleheads"

Yes, I would have to agree with that (although I don't own one).

rkhusky
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by rkhusky » Mon May 07, 2018 6:42 am

munemaker wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:01 pm
randomguy wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 7:21 pm

A lot of boggeheads buy Lexus. Reality there is no such thing as a boglehead car.
Just from observation, it seems most Bogleheads favor Toyota, Lexus, Honda and Subaru (not necessarily in that order). So there may not be a Boglehead car, but these come close to being the Boglehead brands. They are all higher reliability and are Japanese names.
Could just be that Toyota/Honda owners are more apt to comment. Doesn't really extrapolate to all Bogleheads.

Bogleheads.org is about investing. Buying a car is not investing. Even if it is a collectible car.

lazydavid
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by lazydavid » Mon May 07, 2018 7:14 am

munemaker wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 5:53 am
It seems to me that Boglehead BMW and Porsche owners are in the minority. Too bad we don't have polls anymore. Then we would know for sure.
We have one BMW and one Lexus, so does that net us out to zero? :P

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jabberwockOG
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by jabberwockOG » Mon May 07, 2018 7:45 am

We usually buy the most reliable car available in the type of car we are looking for - most lately Toyota and Lexus. In today's world an even moderately unreliable car is a giant PITA due to lack of confidence in it and the hassle of scheduling and getting repairs performed (and that is 100% ignoring costs). It can also be extremely dangerous if the car breaks down at the wrong time, or in the wrong place.

goodlifer
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by goodlifer » Mon May 07, 2018 8:05 am

munemaker wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 6:02 am
Bacchus01 wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 5:56 am
munemaker wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:01 pm
randomguy wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 7:21 pm

A lot of boggeheads buy Lexus. Reality there is no such thing as a boglehead car.
Just from observation, it seems most Bogleheads favor Toyota, Lexus, Honda and Subaru (not necessarily in that order). So there may not be a Boglehead car, but these come close to being the Boglehead brands. They are all higher reliability and are Japanese names.
Interesting observations.

Without a factual poll, I would have immediately said that Subaru was the Boglehead car. It seems to come up first and is often the most recommended brand when there is ever a question about vehicles here. Toyota and Honda come up, and sure there are Lexus and BMW, etc, but Subaru honestly gets shoved harder here than any other brand. At least that is my perception. It may not be unwarranted, but it is prevalent.
"Subaru - The unofficial car of the Bogleheads"

Yes, I would have to agree with that (although I don't own one).

I keep wondering if most of the posters that recommend the Outback actually have one. I think there are only a few posters, including myself, that are owners. I have a 2015 and it is junk. The dealership gets around lemon laws by stating that either they can't replicate the problem, it is operator error, or "that is just how Subarus are". I will never buy another Subaru again. I think the reliability ratings are high because Outback owners are extremely lenient with what they are willing to put up with. If I had found the Outback forum before ordering mine, I never would have bought it. I know several people that love their Foresters but I think they were just redesigned, so we will see how that goes. I also owned a Toyota Corolla that rusted from the inside out and it wasn't noticeable until the driver's window fell down three days after the warranty expired. The dealership refused to do anything, so I won't buy a Toyota, either. So I guess I do not put much stock in reliability rankings.

I'm also interested in the JGC. We need more towing power and it seems like you get the most for your money with the Limited. One thing that is holding me back is the start-stop stink issue. We rented a Pacifica and returned it to Budget because it smelled strongly of vinegar and stinky feet coming through the A/C vents. They gave us a Cherokee and that started to smell, too. I read on the Pacifica forum that it was narrowed down to the start-stop feature. So I'm going to wait for the next model year and see if they can rectify it. Other than that, we really liked it.

dbr
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Re: Should reliability rankings eliminate Jeep Grand Cherokee?

Post by dbr » Mon May 07, 2018 8:14 am

I have an Outback, but I don't recommend or not recommend cars to anyone. What people choose to buy is their problem, not mine. If for some reason someone wants to know if after two years of ownership I would make the same car buying decision the answer, useful to no one, is yes.

In the case of this present thread I have come to the conclusion that if someone wants a Jeep Grand Cherokee they should buy a Jeep Grand Cherokee.

I have also noticed that by the time these car buying threads run long enough pretty much every make and model of vehicle on the market is mentioned by someone. It is probably good for lateral thinking about what to do but can hardly help anyone who is asking actually decide what to do. Maybe the one exception is that there is now a high enough level of fear for Honda CRVs on one thread that some people might avoid that model.

As a pastime the discussion can be interesting.

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