Do you have a car w/o ABS?

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jehovasfitness
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Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by jehovasfitness » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:53 am

Lots of people on here rate car safety as one of their biggest factors when buying a car.

To be honest, it's never been something that has been high on my list.
Likely a combination of reasons, perhaps mainly all the cars I've had in life from age 16 to about say age 28-30 (now 36) were likely not the safest cars... older Mustangs, Camaros, (think 1980s cars or very early 90s).

My daily is a 2001 Cherokee and it doesn't have ABS. It's been a dependable car for the past 7 yrs but there have been a few times after upgrading the brakes that I've locked them up and skidded. So, I've since learned to be even more cautious at braking distances and not braking too hard.

It's at the point where I really don't want the wife driving it, but she did have to recently on an out of town trip. She of course did fine and is aware of the safety concerns.

We don't have the money to pay cash for a newer SUV (which we need the cargo space) so we're saving up.

Just wondering if I'm being cheap by not getting a loan, frugal by waiting it out, or if I'm trying to justify getting a new car.

On one hand it really is a concern of mine, on the other I've driven it the past 7 yrs without an accident.

I do know that ABS came in handy a few years ago on an RV rental we had on icy roads.

alfaspider
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by alfaspider » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:01 am

My track car (a vintage Alfa Romeo) has no ABS. A very skilled driver can actually often stop quicker with no ABS on dry pavement by braking just below the lockup threshold. On the other hand, most of us aren't Lewis Hamilton, and I have accidentally locked up my brakes on the track. As you know, once you lock the brakes, you lose ability to steer. In an emergency situation on the street, most people will instinctively try to put the brake pedal through the floor- which will lead to a lock-up.

Long story short, ABS is a useful safety feature. Besides just ABS, there are lots of features like side-curtain and knee level airbags that are becoming standard on newer cars - not to mention much better crash structures. Stability control can also be a big deal on SUVs- newer SUVs have much less propensity to roll over due to these systems.

I don't think you are crazy to consider upgrading for newer safety features. The car is approaching 20 years old- that's pretty long in the tooth for a daily driver.

mega317
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by mega317 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:25 am

There is no science behind this but I have felt abs are overrated. There have been at least a handful of times I approached a red light too fast in ice and kept sliding and fish tailing until I started manually pumping. I decided to play it extra safe and moved to SoCal 8-)

LiterallyIronic
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by LiterallyIronic » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:33 am

Neither our 2001 Dodge Stratus nor our 2001 Toyota Corolla have ABS. It's never bothered me in the slightest. With any car, you need to know the limitations of the car and also your own limitations, in order to determine how fast you should be going in the current weather, how much space you need to leave between you and the car in front, how much to slow down when taking a sharp turn, etc.

I never feel "safe" or "in danger" when driving. That scale doesn't even come into play. I feel things like "late" or "hungry". :wink:

My wife and I both drive either car, but the baby only rides in the Corolla because it has much better seatbelts in the back for locking the carseat in place.

rooms222
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by rooms222 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:36 am

My Mazda Protege does not have ABS. I try to make sure I have decent tires on it. I have Kumho tires on it now that have good reviews on tire rack. It has been a good car in ice and snow with these tires.

fposte
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by fposte » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:42 am

I'm generally a fan of safety improvements, but I'm still driving an old car without ABS.

I thought this was interesting from an NTSB report following 1995-2007:

ABS has close to a zero net effect on fatal crash involvements. Fatal run-off-road crashes of passenger cars increased by a statistically significant percent (90% confidence bounds: 3% to 15% increase), offset by a significant 13-percent reduction in fatal collisions with pedestrians (confidence bounds: 5% to 20%) and a significant 12-percent reduction in collisions with other vehicles on wet roads (confidence bounds: 3% to 20%). ABS is quite effective in nonfatal crashes, reducing the overall crash-involvement rate by 6 percent in passenger cars (confidence bounds: 4% to 8%) and by 8 percent in LTVs (confidence bounds: 3% to 11%).

So it sounds like it makes a bigger difference in wet roads (no surprise) and to pedestrians, but that there might be an issue with overreliance that leads to greater fatalities in some situations. No idea if there's a controllable factor like intoxication there.

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lthenderson
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by lthenderson » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:44 am

My 20 year old daily driver doesn't have ABS. While I feel safe driving it during the summer, I do notice the difference during the winter season when the roads are a mess and I have to be much more cautious on the amount of braking force I use. I compensate by putting on grippy snow tires but that doesn't solve it entirely.

I'm used to driving that car and know its limitations so I'm not worried about my safety in it. However, I probably will not send either of my daughters off driving it just because it doesn't have ABS in it. When they are driving, I will upgrade to a different vehicle that will definitely have ABS and some sort of traction control.

So in your situation if I was the daily driver, I would save up my pennies to purchase the next car/SUV while driving the Cherokee.

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tuningfork
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by tuningfork » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:47 am

I believe ABS in combination with ESC (electronic stability control) are the most useful safety features to help you avoid accidents. ABS alone helps you stop faster if you don't know how to optimally pump the brakes (even if you know to pump, you might start pumping after ABS would start). ESC helps keep you going in a straight line while ABS is slowing you down, so you don't end up in the ditch or in the other lane.

Of course, if you approach an intersection too fast, ABS or manual pumping will not stop you in time. You need to be alert to conditions and drive appropriately.

Newer cars have more (usually optional) safety features like front collision avoidance, blind spot monitoring, rear-view camera, rear cross-path detection, adaptive cruse control, all designed to help you avoid accidents. It was worth it to me to pay for these features in my latest car.

BogleMelon
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by BogleMelon » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:49 am

I was once involved with an old Civic in a minor accident. Was on a ramp, and due to invisible black ice I lost control, brake locked, I rotated 180 degrees (facing upcoming traffic)! Thankfully I was the only car on the ramp, else I had no idea how would this end.

Since I started to drive ABS cars, and I see the difference every time I brake on icy roads. Yes ABC wont stop you any quicker, but the flexibility I had over the steering wheel was a life saver couple of times.

If you don't live in cold state, then you may never need an ABS, else, I think you need ABS, ESC, and may be winter tires too!
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jehovasfitness
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by jehovasfitness » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:51 am

Thanks for input.

yeah, learning the limitations is important, but one instance for example I had a car start to get in my lane so out of reaction I hit the brakes and locked them up. I was fine, however, still not a good feeling.

I can only be so defensive when I barely trust other drivers these days. #1 I live in MD just outside DC, among the worst rated drivers, and the time I got rearended was in CO on icy roads and I was able to come to a stop in an RV, but other drivers not so much.

smitcat
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by smitcat » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:55 am

jehovasfitness wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:51 am
Thanks for input.

yeah, learning the limitations is important, but one instance for example I had a car start to get in my lane so out of reaction I hit the brakes and locked them up. I was fine, however, still not a good feeling.

I can only be so defensive when I barely trust other drivers these days. #1 I live in MD just outside DC, among the worst rated drivers, and the time I got rearended was in CO on icy roads and I was able to come to a stop in an RV, but other drivers not so much.

I believe there is a large amount of middle ground between a 17 year old Jeep and a new car.
FWIW - the safety features of just about any 5 year old car will really outshine that Cherokee - I used to own one.

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Watty
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by Watty » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:14 am

jehovasfitness wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:53 am
My daily is a 2001 Cherokee and it doesn't have ABS.
You need to also consider the rest of the safety feature like better airbags and ESC which became standard in 2012 and having ESC seems to be real important in an SUV. It would not be included in the statistics but with an older car there is also more risk of it breaking down in an unsafe location.

You can look up the the driver death rate for a 2002 here which would usually be the same as a 2001

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/driver-death-rates

I'm not familar with the different types of Cherokees but if it is the same as a Grand Cherokee then the driver death rate is 55 for 4wd and 89 fo 2wd. That is per million registered cars.

For comparison a 2014 grand Cherokee, which would also have ESC and probably better airbags it is 0 for the 4wd and 10 for the 2wd. For at least the 2wd that includes the 2011 to 2014 model years.

Another comparison is that 2014 small cars like a Civic or a Corolla typically have a driver death rate of around 40 but some are much higher or lower.

They have made a lot of safety enhancements since 2014 so a 2018 would be even safer but is it too soon to have real world statistics.

To me it looks like the safety of driving the Cherokee would be about the same as driving a poorly rated 2014 small car. That is a bit misleading though since even car safety has improved a lot and even a poorly rated 2014 small car is not all that bad.
jehovasfitness wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:53 am
Just wondering if I'm being cheap by not getting a loan, frugal by waiting it out, or if I'm trying to justify getting a new car.
You would need to crunch your own numbers but the way I would look at it is that if between the resale of your current car and what you have already saved up you might need to get a $10,000(or whatever) car loan to buy a newer SUV that has ABS, ESC, better safety features. If you can car a car loan for at 4% then that would cost you $400 a year in interest to buy it now instead of waiting a year or two to pay cash for the car.

Things like insurance might cost more but you would also likely get better gas mileage which could help offset the that.

A big question is if you could easily make the car payment but to me getting a modest car loan to get a safer car would be a reasonable choice if you can afford it.

A big advantage of buying a replacement car while your old car is still working well is that you can take your time and find a great deal on your next car. I have had to buy a replacement car in a hurry and that is not a good situation to be in. Your old car should also sell for a reasonable amount if it is still driving well. If you drive it until it dies then it will be worth very little.

jehovasfitness
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by jehovasfitness » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:20 am

Watty wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:14 am
jehovasfitness wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:53 am
My daily is a 2001 Cherokee and it doesn't have ABS.
It would not be included in the statistics but with an older car there is also more risk of it breaking down in an unsafe location.


that's another concern for when the wife drives it, reliability. Granted, it's been good with a few issues when driving around town. It mainly gets used for work commute and locally, but have taken some longer trips. Then the wife used it for the out of town trip recently.

we only put about 9k miles on it a year however

jehovasfitness
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by jehovasfitness » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:22 am

Watty wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:14 am
Your old car should also sell for a reasonable amount if it is still driving well. If you drive it until it dies then it will be worth very little.
another concern. Right now I can get $3500 for it, but at 150k miles, if the trans or something else big goes that would drop the resale a lot.

targ
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by targ » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:25 am

jehovasfitness wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:53 am
...
My daily is a 2001 Cherokee and it doesn't have ABS. It's been a dependable car for the past 7 yrs but there have been a few times after upgrading the brakes that I've locked them up and skidded. So, I've since learned to be even more cautious at braking distances and not braking too hard.
...
How did you get an '01 XJ without it? My '99 Sport model had it and it was not even an option. It did take a really really hard stop to get it to activate though. For the longest time I thought it wasn't working. I was close to taking it in to have it checked but decided to do an intentional 'panic' stop in a parking lot. It sounded like zip ties getting pulled under the dash when it finally activated - but it worked.

I have had both good and bad experiences with and without ABS. I've even had multiple vehicles (multiple brands) *with* ABS to lock up. One of them even slid through an intersection because it locked up in the rain.

My current daily driver does not have ABS, my backup vehicle does. ABS to me is just a nonconsideration. I guess if I had to choose, I'd prefer not to have it since the vehicles I've had with it, and the way I drive, rarely ever caused the ABS to activate anyway so it never really has benefited me. And on the few times I really needed it, the system locked up anyway so I have learned to not trust them.
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jehovasfitness
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by jehovasfitness » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:30 am

targ wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:25 am
jehovasfitness wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:53 am
...
My daily is a 2001 Cherokee and it doesn't have ABS. It's been a dependable car for the past 7 yrs but there have been a few times after upgrading the brakes that I've locked them up and skidded. So, I've since learned to be even more cautious at braking distances and not braking too hard.
...
How did you get an '01 XJ without it? My '99 Sport model had it and it was not even an option. It did take a really really hard stop to get it to activate though. For the longest time I thought it wasn't working. I was close to taking it in to have it checked but decided to do an intentional 'panic' stop in a parking lot. It sounded like zip ties getting pulled under the dash when it finally activated - but it worked.

I have had both good and bad experiences with and without ABS. I've even had multiple vehicles (multiple brands) *with* ABS to lock up. One of them even slid through an intersection because it locked up in the rain.

My current daily driver does not have ABS, my backup vehicle does. ABS to me is just a nonconsideration. I guess if I had to choose, I'd prefer not to have it since the vehicles I've had with it, and the way I drive, rarely ever caused the ABS to activate anyway so it never really has benefited me. And on the few times I really needed it, the system locked up anyway so I have learned to not trust them.
from my research some years it was an option, or maybe you could opt out? For those years some said the ABS was prone to problems so they preferred not to have it... when buying it, ABS wasnt even on my radar

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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by targ » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:41 am

It's interesting too that you indicated problems started after brake upgrades. On my XJ, it never had any issues at all until after I replaced the pads. Then, every time it rained, one or the other front wheel would lock upon the first application of the brakes. Every. Time. Without. Fail.

That was similar to the truck I had before that slid me through an intersection. The brakes would lock every time it rained, but only on the first application of the brakes.

In both cases, I *know* but can't prove the problem was the inferior 'upgraded' high metal content pads/shoes. Ever since they outlawed asbestos, brakes have gained stopping power and have less fading when overused, but at the expense of a light rust film that happens when the humidity is high and the car is parked. This has been the root cause of all my ABS woes. But once I figured that out, it became habit to 'ride' the brakes for a few yards when first starting out after the car sits for a while in a high humidity environment. That little bit of riding the brakes cleans off the rust and everything works like it's supposed to until the next time it sits for a while.
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randomguy
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by randomguy » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:43 am

jehovasfitness wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:53 am


Just wondering if I'm being cheap by not getting a loan, frugal by waiting it out, or if I'm trying to justify getting a new car.

On one hand it really is a concern of mine, on the other I've driven it the past 7 yrs without an accident.

I do know that ABS came in handy a few years ago on an RV rental we had on icy roads.
You should stay up and night because your SUV doesn't have VSC (which requires ABS) not the lack of ABS. Seriously look at the change in rollover death rates in the model years before and after its introduction.

That being said your odds of dying in a car crash are pretty low (<1% over your life) to begin with. If you wear your seat belt they are even lower. You would have to price out what upgrading to say a 2008-9 (tends to be when the VSC became standard) would cost you factoring in that you should gt another 7 years of driving out of a newer car. It might turn into a couple hundred dollar decision.

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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:52 am

targ wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:41 am
It's interesting too that you indicated problems started after brake upgrades. On my XJ, it never had any issues at all until after I replaced the pads. Then, every time it rained, one or the other front wheel would lock upon the first application of the brakes. Every. Time. Without. Fail.

That was similar to the truck I had before that slid me through an intersection. The brakes would lock every time it rained, but only on the first application of the brakes.

In both cases, I *know* but can't prove the problem was the inferior 'upgraded' high metal content pads/shoes. Ever since they outlawed asbestos, brakes have gained stopping power and have less fading when overused, but at the expense of a light rust film that happens when the humidity is high and the car is parked. This has been the root cause of all my ABS woes. But once I figured that out, it became habit to 'ride' the brakes for a few yards when first starting out after the car sits for a while in a high humidity environment. That little bit of riding the brakes cleans off the rust and everything works like it's supposed to until the next time it sits for a while.
I'm at a loss how this pertains to ABS. ABS simply releases pressure on the brakes when the system detects wheel lockup. Rust or initial bite or type of pad are all independent of ABS/non-ABS.


As Alfaspider explained, ABS allows you to steer while mashing the brake pedal to the floor because instead of locking the front wheels and sliding straight ahead, the brakes are released enough to allow the tires to regain traction and roll. An untrained driver, when starting to skid will tend to mash the brake even harder. For a trained driver, who can threshold brake, detect skid and modulate the brake to get the tires rolling again will have a much shorter stopping distance in a non-ABS car than in an ABS car. The training is key, though. You don't need years of racing, but do need to be taught and practice to be able to use the skill.
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bottlecap
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by bottlecap » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:53 am

A lot of it depends on how you drive. My 18 year old daily driver does have ABS, but it’s probably been 10 years since they’ve been activated, even then only for a second. And I drive more cautiously now. I don’t drive in the rare instances of snow or ice in my area.

So ABS is nice to have, but not absolutely necessary if you drive the speed limit and pay attention.

That said, why do you have to get a loan to upgrade to ABS? Why not sell the Jeep and buy a 2006 or so with ABS and other safety features? With a 17 year old vehicle, I’m inclined to think you know enough about vehicles to find one in decent shape. Either that or you have a good mechanic that can help.

JT

targ
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by targ » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:59 am

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:52 am

I'm at a loss how this pertains to ABS. ABS simply releases pressure on the brakes when the system detects wheel lockup. Rust or initial bite or type of pad are all independent of ABS/non-ABS.
Agree that is how it is supposed to work (if it's a true 4-wheel ABS system). Just saying in my cases, it hasn't. If I were to speculate, in all my cases, these were early ABS systems with no visible sensors at each wheel. It's entirely possible the system wasn't capable of detecting a lock condition at a single wheel.
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jehovasfitness
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by jehovasfitness » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:03 am

targ wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:41 am
It's interesting too that you indicated problems started after brake upgrades. On my XJ, it never had any issues at all until after I replaced the pads. Then, every time it rained, one or the other front wheel would lock upon the first application of the brakes. Every. Time. Without. Fail.

That was similar to the truck I had before that slid me through an intersection. The brakes would lock every time it rained, but only on the first application of the brakes.

In both cases, I *know* but can't prove the problem was the inferior 'upgraded' high metal content pads/shoes. Ever since they outlawed asbestos, brakes have gained stopping power and have less fading when overused, but at the expense of a light rust film that happens when the humidity is high and the car is parked. This has been the root cause of all my ABS woes. But once I figured that out, it became habit to 'ride' the brakes for a few yards when first starting out after the car sits for a while in a high humidity environment. That little bit of riding the brakes cleans off the rust and everything works like it's supposed to until the next time it sits for a while.
That almost explains my issue. If i'm approaching a red light and simply press the brake at first it's more prone to that locking up than if I lightly press the pedal, release and then apply more pressure.

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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by alfaspider » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:06 am

tuningfork wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:47 am
ABS alone helps you stop faster if you don't know how to optimally pump the brakes (even if you know to pump, you might start pumping after ABS would start).
It's not just starting to pump- ABS can pump the brakes much more quickly than any human could. Also, ABS systems are getting better and better, which means the difference between optimal threshold braking and an ABS stop is not as wide as what it used to be.

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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by Texanbybirth » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:09 am

I drive a 2017 Toyota Yaris iA. Before that, I was driving a 2007 Yaris w/o side airbags. I try very hard to be a defensive driver. I'm not perfect, but the crash test ratings for that car were enough for us to immediately seek a different car. It kept me up at night. (I'm also the sole-breadwinner in our family and I do most of the driving, so there's that.) Plus, my wife does drive the car occasionally so I want her to be safe. Her other vehicle is a 2016 Honda Odyssey, so I don't worry about that one.

I'd probably take out a car loan for a newer, safer car if we didn't have the cash for it. I think a lot of other posters' recommendations to look at a (new to you) used car. There's a trade-off that has to be made. In our family, we knew we couldn't afford two Volvo SUVs for each of us so we knew we weren't going to get ALL the newest tech. However, within the affordability spectrum vehicle safety is the top consideration for us.

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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by Barefoot » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:19 am

3 of my 6 cars have it. I've had it engage maybe a dozen times over the 20 or so years that I've had it, but it has only made a difference once.

That one time I would likely have hit a guard rail without it. (Slow downhill turn in snow)

I can't remember a single time that I wished I had it in my cars that don't.

About 30 years ago I took a one day driving course that concentrated on the limits of traction. Dry, wet, and wet on plastic (to simulate ice)

It was very enlightening to practice in a controlled environment.

GAAP
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by GAAP » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:21 am

I actually find ABS to be much more important on a motorcycle...

I have activated ABS on a car -- and it was extremely helpful. OTOH, I've had it fail on one wheel, making things a lot more interesting. On balance, I would prefer to have it, but wouldn't absolutely require it. I'm pretty good about maintaining space -- without ABS, I would try harder.

open_circuit
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by open_circuit » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:22 am

Our daily drivers have ABS and traction/stability control. Our third vehicle (older Jeep Wrangler) has no fancy features -- no ABS, no traction control, etc.

Before buying the Jeep, it has been about 15 years since I regularly drove a vehicle without ABS. For a daily driver, I prefer having ABS and traction control. I like my commute to be as uneventful as possible, which ABS + traction control helps provide when it (frequently) snows here.

goblue100
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by goblue100 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:58 am

ABS isn't the only safety feature an older car doesn't have.

Key active safety systems include:
Automatic emergency braking (AEB): Brakes are automatically applied to prevent a collision or reduce collision speed.
Forward-collision warning (FCW): Visual and/or audible warning intended alert the driver and prevent a collision.
Blind-spot warning (BSW): Visual and/or audible notification of vehicle in blind spot. The system may provide an additional warning if you use your turn signal when there is a car next to you in another lane.
Rear cross-traffic warning: Visual, audible, or haptic notification of object or vehicle out of rear camera range, but could be moving into it.
Rear automatic emergency braking (Rear AEB): Brakes are automatically applied to prevent backing into something behind the vehicle. This could be triggered by the rear cross-traffic system, or other sensors on the vehicle.
Lane-departure warning (LDW): Visual, audible, or haptic warning to alert the driver when they are crossing lane markings.
Lane-keeping assist (LKA): Automatic corrective steering input or braking provided by the vehicle when crossing lane markings.
Lane-centering assist: Continuous active steering to stay in between lanes (active steer, autosteer, etc.)


Not to mention side air bags. Personally, I wont have another car without AEB, FCW and BSW.
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jehovasfitness
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by jehovasfitness » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:02 am

goblue100 wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:58 am
ABS isn't the only safety feature an older car doesn't have.

Key active safety systems include:
Automatic emergency braking (AEB): Brakes are automatically applied to prevent a collision or reduce collision speed.
Forward-collision warning (FCW): Visual and/or audible warning intended alert the driver and prevent a collision.
Blind-spot warning (BSW): Visual and/or audible notification of vehicle in blind spot. The system may provide an additional warning if you use your turn signal when there is a car next to you in another lane.
Rear cross-traffic warning: Visual, audible, or haptic notification of object or vehicle out of rear camera range, but could be moving into it.
Rear automatic emergency braking (Rear AEB): Brakes are automatically applied to prevent backing into something behind the vehicle. This could be triggered by the rear cross-traffic system, or other sensors on the vehicle.
Lane-departure warning (LDW): Visual, audible, or haptic warning to alert the driver when they are crossing lane markings.
Lane-keeping assist (LKA): Automatic corrective steering input or braking provided by the vehicle when crossing lane markings.
Lane-centering assist: Continuous active steering to stay in between lanes (active steer, autosteer, etc.)


Not to mention side air bags. Personally, I wont have another car without AEB, FCW and BSW.
Maybe I'm being non-PC here, but a lot of that stuff seems to just help out bad drivers lol.. as in people not paying attention

targ
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by targ » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:08 am

jehovasfitness wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:02 am

Maybe I'm being non-PC here, but a lot of that stuff seems to just help out bad drivers lol.. as in people not paying attention
+1
Side note, is it wrong of me to drive in a manner that causes those goofy side warning indicators to go off on the cars adjacent to me? :twisted:
Another side note, we probably wouldn't need half of these 'safety' bugs, er features, if people would just hang up the effin phone and drive.
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by goblue100 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:11 am

jehovasfitness wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:02 am

Maybe I'm being non-PC here, but a lot of that stuff seems to just help out bad drivers lol.. as in people not paying attention
Even the best driver can suffer from a moment of inattention.
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by jehovasfitness » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:15 am

goblue100 wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:11 am
jehovasfitness wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:02 am

Maybe I'm being non-PC here, but a lot of that stuff seems to just help out bad drivers lol.. as in people not paying attention
Even the best driver can suffer from a moment of inattention.
fair enough... maybe b/c I drive a death trap on wheels I make sure to be attentive LOL

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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by open_circuit » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:38 am

goblue100 wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:58 am
ABS isn't the only safety feature an older car doesn't have.

Key active safety systems include:
Automatic emergency braking (AEB): Brakes are automatically applied to prevent a collision or reduce collision speed.
Forward-collision warning (FCW): Visual and/or audible warning intended alert the driver and prevent a collision.
Blind-spot warning (BSW): Visual and/or audible notification of vehicle in blind spot. The system may provide an additional warning if you use your turn signal when there is a car next to you in another lane.
Rear cross-traffic warning: Visual, audible, or haptic notification of object or vehicle out of rear camera range, but could be moving into it.
Rear automatic emergency braking (Rear AEB): Brakes are automatically applied to prevent backing into something behind the vehicle. This could be triggered by the rear cross-traffic system, or other sensors on the vehicle.
Lane-departure warning (LDW): Visual, audible, or haptic warning to alert the driver when they are crossing lane markings.
Lane-keeping assist (LKA): Automatic corrective steering input or braking provided by the vehicle when crossing lane markings.
Lane-centering assist: Continuous active steering to stay in between lanes (active steer, autosteer, etc.)


Not to mention side air bags. Personally, I wont have another car without AEB, FCW and BSW.
I've never owned a car with even one of these features. I don't think this is as standard as the post implies. Our daily drivers are from 2012 and 2014 model years, so they aren't old either.

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by DaftInvestor » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:43 am

Its a world of difference to me driving with/without ABS on snowy/icy roads. I would never want to go back to a car without ABS. You can try to "pump" the breaks old-school-style but it isn't the same. Once I started driving with ABS and got used to it I felt much more confident driving on snowy roads.

SeaToTheBay
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by SeaToTheBay » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:44 am

goblue100 wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:58 am
ABS isn't the only safety feature an older car doesn't have.

Key active safety systems include:
Automatic emergency braking (AEB): Brakes are automatically applied to prevent a collision or reduce collision speed.
Forward-collision warning (FCW): Visual and/or audible warning intended alert the driver and prevent a collision.
Blind-spot warning (BSW): Visual and/or audible notification of vehicle in blind spot. The system may provide an additional warning if you use your turn signal when there is a car next to you in another lane.
Rear cross-traffic warning: Visual, audible, or haptic notification of object or vehicle out of rear camera range, but could be moving into it.
Rear automatic emergency braking (Rear AEB): Brakes are automatically applied to prevent backing into something behind the vehicle. This could be triggered by the rear cross-traffic system, or other sensors on the vehicle.
Lane-departure warning (LDW): Visual, audible, or haptic warning to alert the driver when they are crossing lane markings.
Lane-keeping assist (LKA): Automatic corrective steering input or braking provided by the vehicle when crossing lane markings.
Lane-centering assist: Continuous active steering to stay in between lanes (active steer, autosteer, etc.)


Not to mention side air bags. Personally, I wont have another car without AEB, FCW and BSW.
Also the body/crash structure of a newer car is far more stout than an older one. You can thank the IIHS offset tests as well as side-impact and rollover tests for this.

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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by mikebee » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:27 pm

jehovasfitness wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:02 am
goblue100 wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:58 am
ABS isn't the only safety feature an older car doesn't have.

Key active safety systems include:
Automatic emergency braking (AEB): Brakes are automatically applied to prevent a collision or reduce collision speed.
Forward-collision warning (FCW): Visual and/or audible warning intended alert the driver and prevent a collision.
Blind-spot warning (BSW): Visual and/or audible notification of vehicle in blind spot. The system may provide an additional warning if you use your turn signal when there is a car next to you in another lane.
Rear cross-traffic warning: Visual, audible, or haptic notification of object or vehicle out of rear camera range, but could be moving into it.
Rear automatic emergency braking (Rear AEB): Brakes are automatically applied to prevent backing into something behind the vehicle. This could be triggered by the rear cross-traffic system, or other sensors on the vehicle.
Lane-departure warning (LDW): Visual, audible, or haptic warning to alert the driver when they are crossing lane markings.
Lane-keeping assist (LKA): Automatic corrective steering input or braking provided by the vehicle when crossing lane markings.
Lane-centering assist: Continuous active steering to stay in between lanes (active steer, autosteer, etc.)


Not to mention side air bags. Personally, I wont have another car without AEB, FCW and BSW.
Maybe I'm being non-PC here, but a lot of that stuff seems to just help out bad drivers lol.. as in people not paying attention
Agree. I dont have any of them and know I would be totally confused by all the warnings going off. As to tv in the car I just fall about laughing at it.
I have a device between my head and my body called a neck, it enables my head to rotate to look for hazards and has never let me down in 55 years of driving.

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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by capsaicinguy » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:58 pm

I have a love hate with a lot of safety features like abs, etc. That being said, I have always said that for the vast majority of people they are beneficial. I also always tell people when they're new to driving on snow/etc that if the antilocks ever fire, or the vsc kicks in, that they were driving too aggressively, aka going too fast, braking too hard or too late, or trying to turn too quickly and that they need to back it off. Personally I've found a lot of antilock systems to be overly sensitive and activate improperly like when braking and you go over a small patch of sand. Once activated they don't shut off even if you have better traction conditions after they fire. I always end up doing the leg pump to get the antilocks to disengage in those kinds of situations.

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by DaftInvestor » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:03 pm

capsaicinguy wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:58 pm
I also always tell people when they're new to driving on snow/etc that if the antilocks ever fire, or the vsc kicks in, that they were driving too aggressively, aka going too fast, braking too hard or too late, or trying to turn too quickly and that they need to back it off.
Call me aggressive I guess - I've had ABS kick in when braking at only a few-miles per hour on very slippery snow-packed roads. I don't think my car can go much slower without using the brake. Especially if I am simply trying to go slowly down a hill - not sure how to slow down the car if I'm not hitting the gas without using the brake.

warner25
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by warner25 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:43 pm

jehovasfitness wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:02 am
Maybe I'm being non-PC here, but a lot of that stuff seems to just help out bad drivers lol.. as in people not paying attention
mikebee wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:27 pm
I dont have any of them and know I would be totally confused by all the warnings going off. As to tv in the car I just fall about laughing at it. I have a device between my head and my body called a neck, it enables my head to rotate to look for hazards and has never let me down in 55 years of driving.
targ wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:08 am
we probably wouldn't need half of these 'safety' bugs, er features, if people would just hang up the effin phone and drive.
Folks, I wouldn't go out and buy a new car simply to get these features, but I urge you to reconsider your attitudes. Like you, I didn't think I'd ever want all that stuff, had concerns about it, etc. Then we needed a new family car late last year, and our new purchase came with this stuff, and I've been very impressed. It all seems very well designed, doesn't distract, and performs well. The fact is that being in a car is the greatest risk to life and limb that most of us will be exposed to, and I believe the evidence shows that safety features are reducing that risk. You may never be distracted when driving, but other people will, and these features will help you respond faster.

My perspective is that I come from the world of aviation, doing really risky things in a combat environment, where safety has improved by leaps and bounds in a relatively brief period of time as we've introduced more and better automation into the cockpit. I would be wary of flying with people who jokingly dismiss that.

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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by Epsilon Delta » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:57 pm

lthenderson wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:44 am
However, I probably will not send either of my daughters off driving it just because it doesn't have ABS in it. When they are driving, I will upgrade to a different vehicle that will definitely have ABS and some sort of traction control.
Another reason to get a car with ABS before your children learn to drive is that they will be taught "stomp and steer". If you keep the old car you'll have to teach them to pump the brakes and then they will have to unlearn that every time they drive almost anything else for the rest of their driving career.

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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by RetiredAL » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:53 pm

My thoughts: ( in general )
1. On dry straight ahead stopping, ABS does little to stop you sooner. The condition of your tires and the tires traction characteristics are far more important. Driving at an appropriate speed also important.
2. On ice/snow, with ABS you will be less likely spin, but it may or may not improve your stopping distance, depending on if the snow/ice is intermittent or continuous. Reducing your speed ahead of time is far more important.
3. On wet roads, ABS will likely improve you stopping distance with a less likelihood of fishtailing. Reducing your speed ahead of time is far more important.
4. When maneuvering during a very hard brake action, ABS is clearly advantageous.
5. Having your brakes components in good condition is important. As your pads/shoes wear towards end-of-life, they are more likely to fade ( can be unevenly between the wheels ), which can adversely affect your stopping distance and/or swerving.
6. If you have wore out brakes making grinding noises, that means one or more wheels has significantly lower braking function, which translates to significantly longer stopping distance and/or a greater likelihood of swerving or spinning.

So, IMO, YOUR personal choices/actions are likely to be more important than ABS.

My daily driver does not have ABS. The family cars for the past 20+ years have all had ABS. I can only remember a handful of times the ABS even triggered during a hard stop, and the ABS did not change the outcome, as I always had ample room to stop.

Newer collision avoidance systems with auto braking do get you stopped sooner in surprise situations by reducing the reaction time to apply the brakes. My 2012 family car has a collision avoidance alarm, which I find of marginal value, as it has no auto-braking. Of note, it will auto-brake when the Adaptive Cruise Control is active, which I've only seen when someone slower cuts into my lane.

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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by Thesaints » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:56 pm

It is 100% true: "ABS saved my a..".
ABS and dynamic stability control are the greatest safety innovations of the last 20/30 years. Not having them is like not having safety belts and air bags: it can mean the difference between death and not even a scratch.

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Watty
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by Watty » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:16 pm

jehovasfitness wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:02 am
goblue100 wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:58 am
ABS isn't the only safety feature an older car doesn't have.

Key active safety systems include:
Automatic emergency braking (AEB): Brakes are automatically applied to prevent a collision or reduce collision speed.
Forward-collision warning (FCW): Visual and/or audible warning intended alert the driver and prevent a collision.
Blind-spot warning (BSW): Visual and/or audible notification of vehicle in blind spot. The system may provide an additional warning if you use your turn signal when there is a car next to you in another lane.
Rear cross-traffic warning: Visual, audible, or haptic notification of object or vehicle out of rear camera range, but could be moving into it.
Rear automatic emergency braking (Rear AEB): Brakes are automatically applied to prevent backing into something behind the vehicle. This could be triggered by the rear cross-traffic system, or other sensors on the vehicle.
Lane-departure warning (LDW): Visual, audible, or haptic warning to alert the driver when they are crossing lane markings.
Lane-keeping assist (LKA): Automatic corrective steering input or braking provided by the vehicle when crossing lane markings.
Lane-centering assist: Continuous active steering to stay in between lanes (active steer, autosteer, etc.)


Not to mention side air bags. Personally, I wont have another car without AEB, FCW and BSW.
Maybe I'm being non-PC here, but a lot of that stuff seems to just help out bad drivers lol.. as in people not paying attention
ESC Electronic Stability Control should also be on that list.

Something like 90% of drivers think they are above average.

FreemanB
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by FreemanB » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:17 pm

goblue100 wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:11 am
jehovasfitness wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:02 am

Maybe I'm being non-PC here, but a lot of that stuff seems to just help out bad drivers lol.. as in people not paying attention
Even the best driver can suffer from a moment of inattention.
To add to this, a driver can really only pay attention to one thing at a time, so the more active monitoring, the more likely you'll detect problems, particularly when the other drivers are being stupid and creating their own rules and lanes of traffic. I nearly had two accidents on my commute home yesterday, and I wished my 2010 Prius had better sensors at those times.

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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by Fletch » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:47 pm

ABS are required on all new passenger cars sold in the EU since 2004. In the United States, the NHTSA has mandated ABS in conjunction with Electronic Stability Control under the provisions of FMVSS 126 as of September 1, 2013.
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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by capsaicinguy » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:05 pm

DaftInvestor wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:03 pm
capsaicinguy wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:58 pm
I also always tell people when they're new to driving on snow/etc that if the antilocks ever fire, or the vsc kicks in, that they were driving too aggressively, aka going too fast, braking too hard or too late, or trying to turn too quickly and that they need to back it off.
Call me aggressive I guess - I've had ABS kick in when braking at only a few-miles per hour on very slippery snow-packed roads. I don't think my car can go much slower without using the brake. Especially if I am simply trying to go slowly down a hill - not sure how to slow down the car if I'm not hitting the gas without using the brake.
In that kind of situation you can always engine brake. My comment was more about driving habits and treating the abs and vsc/esc as another warning/idiot light in the car. Again, IMO people start relying on these features without realizing that what the car was trying to tell you is that you were trying to do something that could have been dangerous or that was too aggressive for the traction conditions and capabilities of your car. I just hate that any time these things kick in it creates a massive understeer situation that can create it's own problems (hello curb!). Just my .02 I guess, living in snow country I've found the ability to use a little gas to rotate the back end of the car a little can come in handy from time to time but it makes the vsc freak out. :P

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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:55 pm

It seems as though, much like the investing prowess of Bogleheads, our driving skills are also Lake Wobegon-ish , all above average.

The thing is the various safety devices protect us against other drivers, the ones who are below average! :)

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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by TN_Boy » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:41 pm

alfaspider wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:06 am
tuningfork wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:47 am
ABS alone helps you stop faster if you don't know how to optimally pump the brakes (even if you know to pump, you might start pumping after ABS would start).
It's not just starting to pump- ABS can pump the brakes much more quickly than any human could. Also, ABS systems are getting better and better, which means the difference between optimal threshold braking and an ABS stop is not as wide as what it used to be.
I'm curious, could you cite a reference that a human driver can stop faster w/o ABS on dry pavement? As in, they tested it and found a useful difference.

I ask because -- and my memory could be playing tricks on me -- I seem to recall reading a long time ago, probably in Car & Driver, when ABS first came out, they would test stopping distances with and without ABS enabled. But they quit that because ABS always beat the human drivers in the wet, and was as good in the dry.

I've never had ABS prevent an accident for me, but I destroyed a couple of tires a while back in a panic stop on a non-ABS car and if I'd had ABS I think I'd have also stopped but not destroyed the tires. I think a better driver than I would have been able to avoid flat-spotting the tires, but well, I guess I'm not an expert driver. I also think I was really lucky it was bone dry and if the road had been at all wet, ABS would have bailed me out.

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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by ClevrChico » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:06 pm

I didn't own a car with ABS or airbags until 2009. We were taught skid control in drivers ed, so panic stops never really bothered me.

But, I'm glad I now have the safety features. Driving is by far the most dangerous thing my family does every day.

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Re: Do you have a car w/o ABS?

Post by BolderBoy » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:39 pm

I grew up without ABS brake-equipped autos. Plenty of 360s on icy or oily-wet roads over the years. In 2000 I was getting a new car and wanted to see what the hubbub is about ABS brakes.

Mercedes dealership gave me the keys to a new E320 and I found a long, straight stretch of solid-ice road without traffic. Got up to speed and mashed the brakes. The car stopped in a very long, straight line. All I did was hold the steering wheel steady and keep up maximum pressure on the brakes.

I was suitably impressed and would rather have them than not.

(I didn't buy that particular car)
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