How much off MSRP should one expect?

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Hulk
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How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by Hulk » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:28 pm

Thanks for all the great responses on used vs. new car! I am leaning new, if nothing else to get me out of this rabid hole time suck!!! Sheesh, I havent been able to get anything done today.

Ive seen a range from 0 to 17% off MRSP. What is common? Good deal? etc

Also, I noticed some posts mentioning no sales tax for cars in there state. That might have been for used only, but with 6.25% in my state that is quite a bit. Anyone bought out of state to save a few thousand?

02nz
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by 02nz » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:44 pm

Hulk wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:28 pm
Ive seen a range from 0 to 17% off MRSP. What is common? Good deal? etc
It depends. Check TrueCar for an idea.
Hulk wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:28 pm
Also, I noticed some posts mentioning no sales tax for cars in there state. That might have been for used only, but with 6.25% in my state that is quite a bit. Anyone bought out of state to save a few thousand?
Some states have no sales tax at all. Some states do not tax private-party sales. If buying new you can't get around sales tax if your state has one - if you buy out of state, your state will make you pay the tax to register the car.

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Vulcan
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by Vulcan » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:46 pm

MSRP is irrelevant. Negotiate down from Invoice +$200.

Jack FFR1846
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:51 pm

6.25% sounds like Massachusetts, where I live. I'd guess you're new to our state and don't understand how taxes work. My manager at my first engineering job had the bright idea to drive up to New Hampshire, where they have no sales tax in order to buy that used Mercedes S class. He bought it and the dealer put on the 30 day temporary tags as is normal in New Hampshire. He then drove back home to Mass and contacted his insurance company to buy insurance and get the RMV-1 form needed to register the car. He then went into the RMV (our version of DMV) and went to register the car. Surprise! Here's the tax amount that you can pay using a separate check to the Mass DOR (department of revenue).

So no, you can't skirt sales tax in Massachusetts or any other sales tax collecting state that I'm aware of. Sorry.

By buying in NH, my manager also managed to lose all Mass Lemon Aid protections because he didn't buy it from someone within Mass.

Another warning: A new class has recently graduated from the Mass State Police Academy and is out training with experienced officers on the highways. They will be looking for drivers who are unknowingly breaking the law. Massachusetts does not recognize temporary tags from any state, since our state doesn't have any such thing. So if you do buy in NH and drive home on a temp tag from NH, don't be surprised to be pulled over, ticketed and driven home in the flatbed truck, since your car isn't legally on the road in our state.
Last edited by Jack FFR1846 on Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dm200
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by dm200 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:55 pm

Hulk wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:28 pm
Thanks for all the great responses on used vs. new car! I am leaning new, if nothing else to get me out of this rabid hole time suck!!! Sheesh, I havent been able to get anything done today.

Ive seen a range from 0 to 17% off MRSP. What is common? Good deal? etc

Also, I noticed some posts mentioning no sales tax for cars in there state. That might have been for used only, but with 6.25% in my state that is quite a bit. Anyone bought out of state to save a few thousand?
It does not work. You pay the sales tax for the state of residence/registration/title

Hulk
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by Hulk » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:56 pm

Vulcan wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:46 pm
MSRP is irrelevant. Negotiate down from Invoice +$200.
How do you find the invoice price?

md&pharmacist
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by md&pharmacist » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:58 pm

dm200 wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:55 pm
Hulk wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:28 pm
Thanks for all the great responses on used vs. new car! I am leaning new, if nothing else to get me out of this rabid hole time suck!!! Sheesh, I havent been able to get anything done today.

Ive seen a range from 0 to 17% off MRSP. What is common? Good deal? etc

Also, I noticed some posts mentioning no sales tax for cars in there state. That might have been for used only, but with 6.25% in my state that is quite a bit. Anyone bought out of state to save a few thousand?
It does not work. You pay the sales tax for the state of residence/registration/title
You pay sales tax based upon your state, not the seller's state. Used or new.

Chicago60
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by Chicago60 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:01 pm

Hulk wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:56 pm
Vulcan wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:46 pm
MSRP is irrelevant. Negotiate down from Invoice +$200.
How do you find the invoice price?
Google it.

02nz
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by 02nz » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:13 pm

Chicago60 wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:01 pm
Hulk wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:56 pm
Vulcan wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:46 pm
MSRP is irrelevant. Negotiate down from Invoice +$200.
How do you find the invoice price?
Google it.
Again, TrueCar, or Edmunds, or any number of sites. They all have the invoice price. But the invoice price isn't really what the dealer pays either - some cars can be had for less than invoice (and the dealer still makes money). Some cars you're lucky to get at MSRP because of demand.

Chicago60
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by Chicago60 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:24 pm

02nz wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:13 pm
Chicago60 wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:01 pm
Hulk wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:56 pm
Vulcan wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:46 pm
MSRP is irrelevant. Negotiate down from Invoice +$200.
How do you find the invoice price?
Google it.
Again, TrueCar, or Edmunds, or any number of sites. They all have the invoice price. But the invoice price isn't really what the dealer pays either - some cars can be had for less than invoice (and the dealer still makes money). Some cars you're lucky to get at MSRP because of demand.
I agree. I was answering the question “How do you find the invoice price,” and by replying to “Google it”, OP would have found TrueCar, Edmunds, and others.

jehovasfitness
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by jehovasfitness » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:37 pm

Anyone find it a bit ridiculous that you have to pay sales tax on a used car?

I mean, I can slightly see if buying from a dealer, but from a private person, smh

sandramjet
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by sandramjet » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:58 pm

Well it is a sale, regardless of new or used. So it seems consistent at least

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mhc
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by mhc » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:13 pm

The going rate for a car depends on the car. Look at forums where real people post real prices paid for the car you want to buy. I know of no rule of thumb relative to invoice or MSRP that holds across all cars. Look at the forums.

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nisiprius
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by nisiprius » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:18 pm

A perfect example of asymmetrical information. It depends on the demand for the car, which you might not know. It depends on how overpriced the MSRP is to begin with, which might not be the same for every car. It depends on what factory incentives, SPFs, whatever they call them, the dealer gets for selling certain makes or models of car. It depends how far out on a limb the dealer is financially, and which cars it is having trouble selling. I would imagine that there are experienced poker-player types who can read the salesperson and guess these things; I'm not one of them.

I bought one of Consumer Reports' new-car reports that does give some helpful information. In my case, at the time I bought it, it told me a number of things that said if I wanted this hot new car early in its model year, well, uh, I was probably going to have to pay MSRP.
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billfromct
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by billfromct » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:29 pm

You need to be careful about comparing the "bare" automobile price.

As many have mentioned before, dealers bury additional charges in the bill of sale price.

You want to compare "out the door" price. This is the total cost that you will pay for the car. The dealers like to add a bunch of extra costs & fees (rust proofing, window tinting, etc.) when sit down to sign the paperwork.

I just bought a new Toyota Camry L about 2 months ago. I sent out requests for quotes for "out the door" prices to several Toyota & Hyundai dealers (Sonata) to get quotes for both models.

The charges in the final bill of sale were:
-car sale price
-sales tax
-vehicle preparation fee ($292)
-title preparation fee ($5)
-Documentary preparation fee ($198)
-DMV fee ($135)

The Camry I bought from the low cost dealer was about $2,000 less than the other 3 Toyota dealers. One Toyota dealer did not submit a quote after they responded to my original email.

Hope this helps.

bill

markcoop
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by markcoop » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:38 pm

So I just went to a couple of the sites listed above. I bought a car a couple of weeks ago. The sites allow you to specify your exact with options and your zip code. Either I got a great deal or those sites are not so accurate. The sites gives a range. My car cost over $1,000 less than the lower number on the range for a car around $30K. I wonder over how long a period those sites do the average. If the price this month is lower than the previous few months, the average range is not such an important number.
Mark

spitty
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by spitty » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:42 am

Just came across this article--interesting and appropriate to this thread:

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/wha ... oice-price
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tibbitts
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by tibbitts » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:00 am

jehovasfitness wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:37 pm
Anyone find it a bit ridiculous that you have to pay sales tax on a used car?

I mean, I can slightly see if buying from a dealer, but from a private person, smh
In most states you have to pay sales tax on any item you buy for your own use, new or used. You pay at garage sales, any item you buy in-state from e-bay (and that may be expanding), etc. So why should cars be different? And why should dealers be different?

andypanda
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by andypanda » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:22 am

"TrueCar"

They used to be very good, but I'm suspicious of them the past few years. The word on the web is that they rely on advertising and such too much now and maybe don't provide the best info. Still, they provide some good info.

15 months ago I bought a new 2016 Toyota 4Runner Trail Premium w/KDSS and a new 2016 Avalon Touring for my girlfriend.

My first visit to the largest local Toyota dealer (of 3) started with the salesman inviting me to sit across from his desk. Then he turned the monitor around and showed me the TrueCar page on the 4Runner. "See what a good price we offering?"

Uh, no, I don't wanna be average. Try again. I ended up buying from them that day, but for an additional $3k off their first offer. It took about an hour of saying no.

The Avalon my girlfriend picked out three days later had a $3k Toyota rebate and I got them to come down another $3k.

I just kept waving my checkbook at them and asking if they wanted my money until they got down to where I wanted to be -in the very bottom range of what people were paying nationwide on the biggest 4Runner forum (& Avalon forum.) :)

There's always another dealer down the street and they know it. And Richmond is only 100 miles from dozens of dealers in D.C.

darrvao777
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by darrvao777 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:50 pm

Hulk wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:28 pm
Thanks for all the great responses on used vs. new car! I am leaning new, if nothing else to get me out of this rabid hole time suck!!! Sheesh, I havent been able to get anything done today.

Ive seen a range from 0 to 17% off MRSP. What is common? Good deal? etc

Also, I noticed some posts mentioning no sales tax for cars in there state. That might have been for used only, but with 6.25% in my state that is quite a bit. Anyone bought out of state to save a few thousand?
As others have mentioned, it depends on the car.

I've found the best way to find the best price is to go to the specific forum of the car you are looking for. I don't trust websites like TrueCar and Edmunds as I feel they are in the business with the auto industry to promote sales (similar to how I wouldn't ask a real estate agent if this house is priced appropriately. I want to do my own research since the real estate agent's primary objective is to complete a deal not get me bottom dollar)

Cars that are popular enough should have a booming forum on the Internet (most have a couple of competing sites) and it should give you an idea what others are paying for their cars (hopefully same model, same year, similar options, etc)

Then you have to apply it to your particular situation.

For instance, I recently purchased an expensive SUV for my wife. Enthusiast forums indicated I should be getting 7% off MSRP and that would be considered a good deal. The local dealer only came down 4%. I live in a HCOL area with plenty of competition for the vehicle. This was the right color, right trim (i.e. the cheapest one I've found in 6 months scouring this vehicle), and it happened to be a local dealer in town. It's a price I could live with even though it wasn't the bottom dollar that others were getting.

As others have mentioned, when you go to register your car in your home state, they'll hit you with the tax then.

I typically will ask dealers to give me their best price as out the door which includes all fees and taxes so I have a cleaner comparison anyway.

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Nestegg_User
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by Nestegg_User » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:16 am

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:51 pm
6.25% sounds like Massachusetts, where I live. I'd guess you're new to our state and don't understand how taxes work. My manager at my first engineering job had the bright idea to drive up to New Hampshire, where they have no sales tax in order to buy that used Mercedes S class. He bought it and the dealer put on the 30 day temporary tags as is normal in New Hampshire. He then drove back home to Mass and contacted his insurance company to buy insurance and get the RMV-1 form needed to register the car. He then went into the RMV (our version of DMV) and went to register the car. Surprise! Here's the tax amount that you can pay using a separate check to the Mass DOR (department of revenue).

So no, you can't skirt sales tax in Massachusetts or any other sales tax collecting state that I'm aware of. Sorry.

By buying in NH, my manager also managed to lose all Mass Lemon Aid protections because he didn't buy it from someone within Mass.

Another warning: A new class has recently graduated from the Mass State Police Academy and is out training with experienced officers on the highways. They will be looking for drivers who are unknowingly breaking the law. Massachusetts does not recognize temporary tags from any state, since our state doesn't have any such thing. So if you do buy in NH and drive home on a temp tag from NH, don't be surprised to be pulled over, ticketed and driven home in the flatbed truck, since your car isn't legally on the road in our state.
A temporary plate is a VALID registration from another state; citing ANYONE driving through the state while under that VALID tag is in direct conflict with interstate commerce. it’s been a while, but some states even have temporary drivers licenses as well. So, do they try to ticket you for driving without a license as well??
(looks like lawsuits should be in order )

Khanmots
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by Khanmots » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:45 am

Vulcan wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:46 pm
MSRP is irrelevant. Negotiate down from Invoice +$200.
15 years ago, invoice was meaningful. However, car manufacturers realized that the internet made it easy to find and use to negotiate. So the spread between MSRP and "invoice" has steadily decreased over the years.

About 5 years out of date, but it shows the trend. And the trend is continuing... think for the car I bought last year, the manufacturer was around 2-4% delta between "invoice" and MSRP.

It's not because they're setting the MSRP to make less profit, it's because the invoice isn't real anymore; they've been inflating it for years.

What can you do? Figure that the real invoice is still 10-14% below MSRP and negotiate accordingly. I purchased a new car 13 months ago and wound up at 12% off, not the greatest deal, but my previous car had been totaled so I couldn't wait a month or two for inventory changes.

limeyx
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by limeyx » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:04 am

Hulk wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:56 pm
Vulcan wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:46 pm
MSRP is irrelevant. Negotiate down from Invoice +$200.
How do you find the invoice price?
You don't as far as I can see because they can throw enough mud in the water with options and other crud so you will never really know.

The only thing I've really learned is the dealership always makes their $. Always. Its just about containing the damage

LawEgr1
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Re: How much off MSRP should one expect?

Post by LawEgr1 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:48 am

Tough question, I think all responses above are valid. Pending market conditions, specific car and even specific trim level.

This month the car we just obtained was 24% under MSRP with the discounts we received, or 17% below invoice for OTD cost.

It was 20% below invoice car cost or 13% below invoice for OTD cost.


As it looks, it varies wildly.

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